Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Warrior [Merged]

[Katary.7096]

First things first: The "mechanic" of Warrior's spear that makes abilities behave differently based on the distance to the target needs to go. Which luckily won't change all that much about the weapon, since only skill #1, skill #2 and skill #5 actually have it. It is a bit weird how Guardian's spear has the "illumination" mechanic for all the non auto attack skills and Ranger's spear has stealth attack versions of all of its non auto attack skills and then Warrior's mechanic applies to half of their kit. Certainly feels like someone is playing favorites.
Another general problem with the spear is its complete lack of boon generation, even greatsword has at least self fury on the burst skill...

Spear burst skill: The description does not update the damage value based on adrenaline level, even though it deals more damage at higher levels. Which is something that specifically holds the skill back on Spellbreaker builds and considering that Bladesworns never get access to this ability (that elite spec needs a rework) and Berserker wants to spend most of its time in Berserk with the primal burst replacing the normal one, Spellbreaker and core Warrior are the only ones using this skill in the first place. Out of the 2 "classes" that will use this burst, 1 is handicapped from the start.
Personally I would like to trade the evasion effect on this skill for the ability to move while casting it. Nowadays I play primarily PvE content, which features increasing numbers of encounters where some attacks are designed to ignore dodging, blocking and evading but can still be dealt with by being in the correct position. Therefore a skill that prevents me from moving while it gives evasion is not actually that useful.

Spear primal burst: This has very little in commen with the normal spear burst and feels heavily inspired by the sword primal burst, which I don't get at all. There are a number of generally awesome primal bursts like langbow, mace, greatsword or axe, why would you pick one of the "these skills are only here because they technically have to be"-primals as a starting point? And arguably the sword primal burst is just straight up better than the spear one.
In general the new spear skills are at least visually impressive, which is mostly irrelevant on Warrior due to its more down to earth design, but what exactly happend with the animation for this skill? The weapon itself simply vanishes while the Berserker is flailing around nothing as fireballs appear next to the Berserker and launch themselves at the target. A Warrior character in Astral Ward or Skysage armor casting this skill looks like a traditional fire mage using some weird barrage type spell. Is it too much to ask for a Berserker skill to convey the image of a berserking Warrior?

Spear Skill #1: The spear being thrown should have a projectile finisher (chance 20%). The shattering effect of the spear should hit the initial target in order for this ability to generate at least 2 adrenaline per cast. Remove the range mechanic.

Spear Skill #2: Remove the range mechanic.

Spear Skill #3: Forward dash instead of backwards dodge. Increase knockback distance or replace knockback with knockdown. Increase the range of the projectile.

Spear Skill #4: Shorter casttime and greater projectile speed. The description states that targets using a skill are additionally interrupted and dazed, which is an odd way to phrase it because the daze effect is causing this skill to interrupt actions in the first place. It can simply say "targets using a skill are additionally dazed ".

Spear Skill #5: This either needs to work like Guardian's focus #4 "Ray of Judgement" or have its impact radius increased. Simply moving at normal speed in a straight line should not negate a slot #5 skill. Add vulnerability to each hit. Remove the range mechanic.

[latlat.4516]

Here's my feedback for the warrior spear. Tested in guild-organized 30-men zerg :

The good

• actually fills a niche the warrior had struggles with before. Access to easy cripple with #2, to immob+hard cc with #4 and to a push with #3 allows the celestial spellbreaker to participate in the 900 spike, where before it was just utterly useless. 

The bad

• I don"t see any reason as to why the burst skill does not allow movement. The skill has a long cast time, does not have an enormous amount of damage for a 3/4s cast time, has a very small effect radius and no supplementary effect
• I would be good for the CC on the #3 to occur before the/at the same tame as the backward dash, to allow the weapon stow to cancel it
• the animations are, well, meh. Since we are on warrior, I guess it's to be expected, but I would have loved a bit of "parangon" touches from gw1. 

The ugly

• I do have the impression the 5fth skill does not have much uses. Other people already showed this, but the speed at which spears fall cannot hit someone that just presses their advance key (which you should always be doing in competitive anyway). 
• when trying to hit someone that is not at your height level, the fifth skill reacts as cancelled (= goes into a 4seconds coolddown), instead of not launching. While I tought from the stream that skill shouldn't have a LoS required, I now understand you were talking only about the follow up attacks, and not the skill itself. Too bad, I was looking forward warrior getting its own barrage.

[Zirou.8624]

On 6/29/2024 at 9:08 AM, Screamlight.8374 said:

Warrior Spear Feedback
Philosophy of Use: As a warrior the spear should be used as both a ranged and a melee weapon so it should be able to dictate range and gap close as needed. Rather than just be a two handed weapon it should be a single handed weapon used in conjunction with a shield (the movie 300 comes to mind here with the spartans). Buffs available to the warrior should include might, swiftness, stability and quickness. Conditions should include bleed, burn, cripple, daze, torment and vulnerability. The burst skills should prioritize boon rip as well as burn or torment stacks depending on whether spellbreaker or berserker is chosen.

1. Spear Ability - Mighty Throw  New name - Chains
    Ranged or melee auto attack chains
    a. First attack applies cripple
    b. Second attack applies bleed
    c. Third attack applies Chains - Inflicts damage on target and binds 2 other targets within a specified range together linking damage and conditions to all three for a specified length of time. If the targets leave the range length of the chains they are dazed.
For all three of these abilities damage, range, condition damage and duration as well as cool downs need to be determined for balance.
2. Spear Ability - Maiming Spear New name - Shattering Spear
    Ranged or melee attack depending on range
    Spear shatter on hit - blind and daze on target
    Damage -     Range -1200     Condition Damage and duration -     Cool downs -
3. Spear Ability - Spear Swipe New name - Bash and Sweep
    Charge forward and bash with shield for an interrupt and daze on target. Second press of ability sweeps with spear for knockdown on target. Third part of chain could be a target  deselection and leap away or leap to target if it did not hit on the first two     parts of the attack chain.
    Damage -     Range -600     Condition Damage and duration -     Cool downs -
4. Spear Ability - Disrupting Throw New name - Block and Pin
    Block attacks with shield for specified duration. If successful a counterattack becomes available for a ranged throw interrupt or a melee shield bash interrupt depending on the range. The ranged counterattack could apply cripple and torment. The melee counterattack could apply cripple and daze.
    Damage -     Range -900     Condition Damage and duration -     Cool downs -
5. Spear Ability - Spear Marshal's Support New name - Butcher's Pole
    If ranged throw spear with vertical drop on target as it does now. The spear embeds  in ground and chains to target similar guardian spear of virtue. If in melee range the warrior slams spear into ground chaining to current target. The chains transmits burning or torment to target for a specified duration along a fixed chain radius. If the target exceeds the length of radius on the chain the target is knocked down and the chain breaks. The warrior has stability and swiftness while the target is bound and in the chains radius.
    Damage -     Range -1200     Condition Damage and duration -     Cool downs -
F1 Burst ability - Harrier's Toss New name - Charge and Flay
    Spear is charged with adrenaline bar and can now be thrown or thrust for stacks of burning or torment and rips three boons from target. Knock down on hit.
    Damage -     Range -1200     Condition Damage and duration -     Cool downs -

 

I like this, bumping it

[Lems.2654]

Seems like Wild throw has a bug that causes its damage calcs to be wrong. every second hit is calculated incorrectly. Because the skill uses a similar animation  to ranger axe 5 im assuming its trying to calculate damage on a non-existent offhand weapon, because the damage is consistently ~25%-50% lower on every second hit. Dunno just something strange ive noticed.

Edited Monday at 12:27 PM by Lems.2654

[Zekent.3652]

Underwater spear is better than this one.

[lol.9027]

I agree with a lot of what was said already in this topic so i will just add somehting i havent read a lot so far.

I really think they did a bad job with the berserker burst. It is literally a copy paste of the sword burst and it has nothing in common with the original baseline burst. The berserker burst definitely needs to be closer to the baseline burst. Make it a have an evade, make it a skillshot. I think hammer does a wonderfull job of that. Just take the original burst, make it more powerfull and add the signature berserker visuals.

[EdgeBade.3749]

1 hour ago, Zekent.3652 said:

Underwater spear is better than this one.

Lol I was thinking about that too! Crazy how you have to be underwater to actually use a spear as a spear!

 

[ZEUStiger.3590]

21 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's a good synopsis, but they aren't going to create a whole new mechanic at this point.

When you kitten up this badly - you better be prepared to invest time and resources to unkitten it. And reevaluate your development practices, so that next this doesn't happen and you're not forced to work overtime, redoing the whole work twice, because you're too disconnected from reality of your own game to do it well the first time. For kitten's sake, hire someone to the team who plays warrior in PvE, it's very evident that nobody in the existing team does and hasn't been for like 5 years, as PvE problems are only getting fixed when the community raises a kittenshow about it.

[Xaylin.1860]

I tested all Spears in a rather casual PvE setting. So this is more of a first impression than a thorough assessment.

While it was advertised for power Berserker, I found Spear to be way more interesting for a interrupt/CC Spellbreaker build to compliment Hammer, Mace or Dagger. Yes, the skills aren't too flashy but they felt responsive and efficient enough. One thing I really disliked especially for Warrior: ANet clarifying that Landspear won't benefit from Underwater Spear traits. I would have loved to gain the bonus from Forceful Greatswords. But Maybe ANet didn't want Spear to outshine GS in that department.

[Matt H.6142]

Of course warrior was the true spear thrower.  Mostly a RP weapon.  A lot of misses with the skill 3 interrupt, and it doesn't follow terrain.

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

Can we change the primal burst of the spear to more of a rush forward thrust with ghost rider flame effects? It wouldn't do me any favors because I usually use range on warrior, but it would look so much cooler.

[Halawen.4762]

posting for a friend that wants land based versions of the warrior water spear

[Jzaku.9765]

• [Wild Throw] (Primal Burst) I would suggest just copying Renegade F3 [Citadel Bombardment]'s animation and functionality when you use it standing still - the character jumps into the air and (in Warrior's case) throws multiple spears at once, keeping both the jump theme from [Harrier's Toss] (Core Burst) and the multi hit theme from [Wild Throw]. Except obviously don't animation lock it.

[BadSanta.6527]

i found it really wierd that warrior spear canot melle and range same as thief , rev , ranger while warrior supposed to be the wepon master 

also we must not give easy time on the art team! its a shame 

[VocalThought.9835]

My thoughts are to make the warrior have both the close combat and range mechanics like that of Thief and Ranger, where the skills change when you are in close combat.

Skill 1

a. Mighty Throw: 

b1. Slayer's Spear: (Range 170) Chain. 

b2. Vicious Attack : (Range 170) Chain.

b3. Merciless Spear: (Range 170) 

Skill 2 

a. Maiming Spear:

Skill 3

a. Spear Swipe: Evade and send a shockwave of air in front of you, knocking your enemies back.

Skill 4

a. Disrupting Throw

Skill 5

a. Spearmarshal's Support: Add "enemies struck gain Vulnerability and Daze".

b. Chest Thumper: (Range 300) Lunge at foe stunning your target, gaining might when hitting a disabled foe.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

• [Wild Throw] (Primal Burst) I would suggest just copying Renegade F3 [Citadel Bombardment]'s animation and functionality when you use it standing still - the character jumps into the air and (in Warrior's case) throws multiple spears at once, keeping both the jump theme from [Harrier's Toss] (Core Burst) and the multi hit theme from [Wild Throw]. Except obviously don't animation lock it.

^This. Honestly, that is probably the best option possible for the primal. Not that I didn't like the current version, it just has problems that will hold spear back in Anet's preferred game mode.

[Zera.9435]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

^This. Honestly, that is probably the best option possible for the primal. Not that I didn't like the current version, it just has problems that will hold spear back in Anet's preferred game mode.

I'd rather they simply remove the rooting from the default burst. Rooting shouldn't be a thing at all.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I'm hard disagreeing with the berserker burst critique. The multiranged attack is good for competitive, and supplements kiting and provides counterpressure to classes that normally would win that matchup handily. 

Don't change it to be another skillshot. Don't change it into some targetable move.  It's fine just like it is. 

If @Jzaku.9765 suggestion is well implemented, this might also be an option.  As it stands right now though, I'm super tired of power zerk getting streamlined to hit golems when thetes two other gamemodes it should work in, and consistent ranged damage is a good step in that direction. 

Edited Tuesday at 04:52 PM by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm hard disagreeing with the berserker burst critique. The multiranged attack is good for competitive, and supplements kiting and provides counterpressure to classes that normally would win that matchup handily. 

Don't change it to be another skillshot. Don't change it into some targetable move.  It's fine just like it is. 

If @Jzaku.9765 suggestion is well implemented, this might also be an option.  As it stands right now though, I'm super tired of power zerk getting streamlined to hit golems when thetes two other gamemodes it should work in, and consistent ranged damage is a good step in that direction. 

The issue with the burst in PvE is that it takes too long to cast for Smash Brawler and Heat the Soul to gain any value from it. Just reducing the cast time is enough of a fix.

1.75s will be perfect, fixes the PvE issues, and preserves the functions that make it great in PvP/WvW.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

27 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The issue with the burst in PvE is that it takes too long to cast for Smash Brawler and Heat the Soul to gain any value from it. Just reducing the cast time is enough of a fix.

1.75s will be perfect, fixes the PvE issues, and preserves the functions that make it great in PvP/WvW.

This is also fine, just like... remember power zerker exists in pvp  with whatever balance direction you take here

[Josif.2015]

Mighty Throw: no changes needed.
Maiming Speak: the tooltip says it applies conditions, but it only applies cripple. Maybe add bleed as an additional condition.
Spear Swipe: no changes needed.
Disrupting Throw: reduce the daze duration from 2.5 to 1.5 seconds.
Spearmarshal's Support: no changes needed.
Harrier's Toss: remove the evasion.

[Napster.8290]

20 hours ago, Zera.9435 said:

I'd rather they simply remove the rooting from the default burst. Rooting shouldn't be a thing at all.

I second this and while you are at it, also remove the stupid root from Hundred Blades after 12 years lol!

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Anet: We have this amazing combat system build around movement. 

Also Anet: ROOTS FOR EVERYONE!!!! 🤪

[cryorion.9532]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Anet: We have this amazing combat system build around movement. 

Also Anet: ROOTS FOR EVERYONE!!!! 🤪

Guess which professions didn't have single root skill on their spear 🙃

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Guess which professions didn't have single root skill on their spear 🙃

Green children?