Can we actually do something about Necromancers in PvP?

[WingSwipe.3084]

Every single game i've played in sPvP for the last two weeks has at least two necros in each team.

I have to burn 4 stunbreaks for each necro per teamfight and at this point its just too much.

Can we tune them down a bit, just a little?

Edited July 27 by WingSwipe.3084

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I too love getting hit by random Chilled to the Bones

[Saiyan.1704]

"Necro's now has to say a phrase before they cast Chill to the Bone, within 1.25 seconds.

"I am about to cast Chill to the Bone so you better get ready!"

Even though it is said really fast within that 1.25 seconds, we feel this gives necessary counterplay to a powerful elite."

-Anet

[Codename T.2847]

5 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

"Necro's now has to say a phrase before they cast Chill to the Bone, within 1.25 seconds.

"I am about to cast Chill to the Bone so you better get ready!"

Even though it is said really fast within that 1.25 seconds, we feel this gives necessary counterplay to a powerful elite."

-Anet

Just make it stun you at then ".... bone! " part, ez

[Flowki.7194]

Necro has been a consistant 20-40% represented class per game in sPVP for as long back as I can rememebr, in w/e itteration. Its representation has not really changed, but its effectiveness has skyrocketed. Easy to play, forgiving (double life+wurm), and an AOE boon rip to help ensure you land multiple CC for attack/defence, and the spec also does good damage. There is no glaring weakness to reaper anymore, while being straight forward to play. That gives it high consistancy, and over performance compared to the same player on something like holo, making it far more likely reaper will carry people a tier higher than they would be otherwise.

 

I have no real problem with the mechanics of reaper, aside from AOE chill, it should be directional so that you  don't get CC'd by reapers who are fking oblivious to your presense (happens a lot). Aside from that I see the need for the rest of what they have, for example, withought boon rip they will lose a way to defend/attack, especially with such poor stab access, etc etc. For me, I think the issue might be the life force generation, they get it too easily, even if you dodge/cc them during the initial 10 seconds, they still build more than enough. Not sure how to adress that issue withough reverting them back to the "primary necro and he melts in 10 seconds", that should not be a thing either. On the other hand, if that is the only choice, then so be it, reaper is too easy/consistant to be that good.

Edited July 28 by Flowki.7194

[Arheundel.6451]

10 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Necro has been a consistant 20-40% represented class per game in sPVP for as long back as I can rememebr, in w/e itteration. Its representation has not really changed, but its effectiveness has skyrocketed. Easy to play, forgiving (double life+wurm), and an AOE boon rip to help ensure you land multiple CC for attack/defence, and the spec also does good damage. There is no glaring weakness to reaper anymore, while being straight forward to play. That gives it high consistancy, and over performance compared to the same player on something like holo, making it far more likely reaper will carry people a tier higher than they would be otherwise.

 

I have no real problem with the mechanics of reaper, aside from AOE chill, it should be directional so that you  don't get CC'd by reapers who are fking oblivious to your presense (happens a lot). Aside from that I see the need for the rest of what they have, for example, withought boon rip they will lose a way to defend/attack, especially with such poor stab access, etc etc. For me, I think the issue might be the life force generation, they get it too easily, even if you dodge/cc them during the initial 10 seconds, they still build more than enough. Not sure how to adress that issue withough reverting them back to the "primary necro and he melts in 10 seconds", that should not be a thing either. On the other hand, if that is the only choice, then so be it, reaper is too easy/consistant to be that good.

Necros meltling in 10s? when? pre-beta launch in 2012?

Necros have been a constant over represented kitten since launch and every year it got worst and worst, with counterplay options being nerfed around the clock, it was so bad for eles they had to introduce diamond skin now nerfed to the kitten ground after copious amount of salty tears from people playing a class where they never needed to learn what a dodge button is...then there was a brief time where we had enough damage to actually down this condi tanking kitten kitten design and even that got nerfed to the kitten ground after another copious amount of salty tears. Result is this "triple A" joke with a balance worse than the cheapest P2W Korean mobile game now give us 2-3 reapers per team in PVP and immortal harbingers with speed sigil in wvw or cele scourge with enough barrier to tank a tactical nuke

If there was ever a time you could down a necro in 10s flat......I'd pay to get back to that time

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Necros meltling in 10s? when? pre-beta launch in 2012?

Necros have been a constant over represented kitten since launch and every year it got worst and worst, with counterplay options being nerfed around the clock, it was so bad for eles they had to introduce diamond skin now nerfed to the kitten ground after copious amount of salty tears from people playing a class where they never needed to learn what a dodge button is...then there was a brief time where we had enough damage to actually down this condi tanking kitten kitten design and even that got nerfed to the kitten ground after another copious amount of salty tears. Result is this "triple A" joke with a balance worse than the cheapest P2W Korean mobile game now give us 2-3 reapers per team in PVP and immortal harbingers with speed sigil in wvw or cele scourge with enough barrier to tank a tactical nuke

If there was ever a time you could down a necro in 10s flat......I'd pay to get back to that time

Holy kitten buddy, let it all out, I don't think I need to ask where the necro touched you 😆

[felincyriac.5981]

at least you can kill a necro, unlike certain war and ranger builds.

[Mythras.2091]

All necro is still allergic to cc and condi (shroud also dont protect from it) and ye they can be killed in 10s. A porting WB and Shiro herald can definietly melt me in first round if im not careful 😛 Anyway, if you have stab and necro pops shroud 2 its a problem also dont stay in well of corruption 🙂

[maxwelgm.4315]

Unless the necro can play jumping puzzles well and use the no-port zones of the map to their advantage, they won't last very long. Their kit looks loaded at first glance but they kinda need it, as Necro is notably low on stability and/or invulnerability frames and blocks. Also to play at higher levels they must a) play strictly Harbinger or Reaper (preferably Reaper), and b) sacrifice at least 2 utility slots for the sake of movement skills (spectral walk+flesh wurm). Again, not taking either will still require very good knowledge of no-port zones around a point and quick thinking of where to jump to avoid the Five Guys takeaway delivery on top of your Necro. Condi druid and Spellbreaker have far more free get out of jail cards that won't even require them to worry that much about positioning. Chilled to the bone is surely annoying to get hit by, but if you look at it from the Necro's point of view, this is their precious 5s to annihilate you or else they're toast. 

[WingSwipe.3084]

15 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Unless the necro can play jumping puzzles well and use the no-port zones of the map to their advantage, they won't last very long. Their kit looks loaded at first glance but they kinda need it, as Necro is notably low on stability and/or invulnerability frames and blocks. Also to play at higher levels they must a) play strictly Harbinger or Reaper (preferably Reaper), and b) sacrifice at least 2 utility slots for the sake of movement skills (spectral walk+flesh wurm). Again, not taking either will still require very good knowledge of no-port zones around a point and quick thinking of where to jump to avoid the Five Guys takeaway delivery on top of your Necro. Condi druid and Spellbreaker have far more free get out of jail cards that won't even require them to worry that much about positioning. Chilled to the bone is surely annoying to get hit by, but if you look at it from the Necro's point of view, this is their precious 5s to annihilate you or else they're toast. 

If my team fail the 4 stunbreak/dodge test per necro, against a double Necro enemy stack, the teamfight is lost. The enemy team has a massive "Do free damage" card that you cant counter. A necro 1v1 is just moderately difficult to beat but absolutely possible. 

This isnt an issue about the Necros being able to 1v1 however, this is an issue of a necro being able to lock off massive areas with condi spam, fears and then being able to all in on a 5 second team wide stun that you absolutley must stunbreak or you'll die from the enemy team just getting to do free damage.

"Use some stability" I hear you say?
Is that before or after the boon corrupt turns that into another fear that I have to wait out or stunbreak?

16 hours ago, Mythras.2091 said:

All necro is still allergic to cc and condi (shroud also dont protect from it) and ye they can be killed in 10s. A porting WB and Shiro herald can definietly melt me in first round if im not careful 😛 Anyway, if you have stab and necro pops shroud 2 its a problem also dont stay in well of corruption 🙂

Every profession that can apply the heavy cc required to pin a necro down usually has to do so from melee range... against a necro.

Try going melee against a reaper/harb and tell me how much fun that is for the 0,3 picoseconds you actually get to do anything.

"A porting WB and Shiro herald can definietly melt me in first round if im not careful", Willbender is one of the most blatant examples of overloaded, vile and disgusting kits that usually have no real issue downing anything that doesn't have a dedicated "You cant touch me for 5 seconds" button. Dont know much about Shinro Heralds im afraid.
If this is whats required to deal with necros in teamfights, then the issue is magnitudes worse then what I assume and have seen.

Edited July 29 by WingSwipe.3084
Text correction

[Flowki.7194]

6 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

If my team fail the 4 stunbreak/dodge test per necro, against a double Necro enemy stack, the teamfight is lost. The enemy team has a massive "Do free damage" card that you cant counter. A necro 1v1 is just moderately difficult to beat but absolutely possible. 

This isnt an issue about the Necros being able to 1v1 however, this is an issue of a necro being able to lock off massive areas with condi spam, fears and then being able to all in on a 5 second team wide stun that you absolutley must stunbreak or you'll die from the enemy team just getting to do free damage.

"Use some stability" I hear you say?
Is that before or after the boon corrupt turns that into another fear that I have to wait out or stunbreak?

Every profession that can apply the heavy cc required to pin a necro down usually has to do so from melee range... against a necro.

Try going melee against a reaper/harb and tell me how much fun that is for the 0,3 picoseconds you actually get to do anything.

"A porting WB and Shiro herald can definietly melt me in first round if im not careful", Willbender is one of the most blatant examples of overloaded, vile and disgusting kits that usually have no real issue downing anything that doesn't have a dedicated "You cant touch me for 5 seconds" button. Dont know much about Shinro Heralds im afraid.
If this is whats required to deal with necros in teamfights, then the issue is magnitudes worse then what I assume and have seen.

 

The real problem I think with reaper is that if you primary it, the mirage/dh/wb/vindi etc get to free cast, and all of those do far higher spike dmg. By the nature of reapers face tank mechanics +wurm, it is not a great primary, its always better to primary/pressure the highest spike burst spec til it dies/leaves the fight, which basically means reapers get free games. I can give team plenty of stab to out do reaper CC, but the issue is teamwork, there is not much of it, so my stab uptime will drop off before they have killed/pushed off the spike dps, the reaper CC then kicks in and its over. If that happens, its basically time to go sides and avoid reaper group fights. In short, reapers just get stronger with less organised enemy, and reverse (In relation to the group fight spec that I play).

[Kuya.6495]

This isn't necessarily a problem with reaper per se but with the new weapons they gained access to plus necromancer's innate design. Reaper used to just have cc in shroud and elite but since they got access to pistol and torch, now they sport 4 different CCs. Normally you would counter this CC spam with stability but what's the problem with that? Oh that's right, necromancer as a profession is full of boon corruption. So you better dodge every CC or have access to 4 stunbreaks.

Edited July 31 by Kuya.6495

[Jobber.6348]

The nature of point-capture objective also heavily favors Reaper, a character whose entire effectiveness is based on melee and controlling the point. So unless you bring your own group of degen to bomb the point, Reapers just kind of win any on-point fight by default. 

So most team comp basically boils down to:

Point power house: usually Reaper and their mere presence just makes it a deathtrap to enter unless you're another point contesting monster + support combo dropping in
Support : Keeps that Reaper CC free and alive
Roam/Sidenode: decap and contest far and protect home
Flex x2: Usually 1 more of Roam or on point fighter, which pretty much means ANOTHER Reaper or something like a DH. OR A THIRD Necro COS WHY NOT. 

Edited July 31 by Jobber.6348

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

On 7/27/2024 at 5:12 PM, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Every single game i've played in sPvP for the last two weeks has at least two necros in each team.

I have to burn 4 stunbreaks for each necro per teamfight and at this point its just too much.

Can we tune them down a bit, just a little?

Creaper isn't even an issue TBH. Hammer vindi, staff warrior, and deadeye are the strongest builds in the game and support chrono is maybe slightly behind those three. I'm purely talking about ranked play, not mAT balance.

Hammer vindi and staff warrior need some obvious nerfs. Deadeye needs a slap on the wrist(but a meaningful nerf to slightly reduce its strength) and I'm not convinced that support chrono needs any changes ATM

I'd rather see other specs buffed over any necro nerfs

 

Edited July 31 by WhoWantsAHug.3186

[Myror.7521]

Me who see peops complaining about spellbreaker ...... me who knows he could sweap to Condi zerker and been able to do the exact same thing spellbreaker does rn but in less skill needed form.....

Yea this totaly fine xp

[Sahne.6950]

i think necro is manageable outside of a really coordinated team that is actively peeling for the necro.

Edited July 31 by Sahne.6950

[Terrorhuz.4695]

9 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Hammer vindi, staff warrior, and deadeye are the strongest builds in the game and support chrono is maybe slightly behind those three. I'm purely talking about ranked play, not mAT balance.

Hammer vindi and staff warrior need some obvious nerfs. Deadeye needs a slap on the wrist(but a meaningful nerf to slightly reduce its strength) and I'm not convinced that support chrono needs any changes ATM

Yes to hammer vindi, yes to staff warrior, no to deadeye, maybe to support chrono (the team sustain is exactly where it should be; self-survivability is excessive tho)

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i think necro is manageable outside of a really coordinated team that is actively peeling for the necro.

Yes but the thing that is keep getting overlooked is that necro, by its mechanics is face tank heavy <or just don't attack it for X period>, yet the necro does very little skill wise to achieve that status. Spaming mass AOE staff abilitys from range is not hard enough to justify the face tank <or stop attack> that follows. That is before considering its CC. For as long as necro has that casual face tank <stop attack> element.. it simply does not deserve to be anywhere near meta status. That is why I laugh a lot when people focus on things like vindi with such intent, becuase in terms of effort/punishment, vindi has more right to be meta than reaper, although vindi ofc needs a deathdrop nerf <so that means  a nerf to tablet inc> #Anet.

Edited July 31 by Flowki.7194

[Sahne.6950]

@Flowki.7194

necro is pretty much the only class that doesnt have any form of "full damage mitigation".  

Reaper isnt really able to facetank.     Kiting is a fundamental part of Reaper gameplay.

 

"vindi has more right to be meta than reaper".    Might be a hottake, but i think its easier to defend on Vindi, then it is on Reaper. 

Nothing difficult about chaining dodges with weaponblocks.     I think situational awareness and positioning is harder to do.

Edited July 31 by Sahne.6950

[Flowki.7194]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

@Flowki.7194

Ele is pretty much the only class that doesnt have any form of "full damage mitigation".  

Reaper is miles away from being able to facetank anyone.     Kiting is a fundamental part of Reaper gameplay.

Oh stop talking kitten mate, reaper face tanks a lot more than most specs

[Sahne.6950]

39 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Oh stop talking kitten mate, reaper face tanks a lot more than most specs

They can facetank some... yes... Shroud, dmg reduction... we get it.  

But in this dmg bloated meta... this doesnt cut it.  you NEED full dmg mitigations. Which necro has exactly 0.  Thats also why good positioning and situational awareness are core skill you need to have on Reaper.

You get caught with your pants down, you die.

They HAVE to kite.  Kiting is a fundamental part about playing Reaper. You simply cant deny this.

The only moment you dont wanna kite is while you are in shroud.

Edited July 31 by Sahne.6950

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Yes to hammer vindi, yes to staff warrior, no to deadeye, maybe to support chrono (the team sustain is exactly where it should be; self-survivability is excessive tho)

just dodge

[TruthSeeker.3697]

Thats why vindi is popular at all skill levels unlike condi reaper.
30 vindis for every creaper
No wait.

CReaper is easy to pick up and master. Effective and great everywhere and at every skill level.
The best defense is a good offence. Yeah, turns out that having ranged CC spam and leaving kitten fields everywhere helps a lot.
Harbinger is not far behind either.

This sandbox is still awful. Same old.
The risk-reward ratio is simply putrid.

Edited July 31 by TruthSeeker.3697

[arazoth.7290]

Just now, TruthSeeker.3697 said:

Thats why vindi is popular at all skill levels unlike reaper/condi reaper.
No wait.

CReaper is easy to pick up and master. Effective and great everywhere and at every skill level.
The best defense is a good offence. Yeah, turns out that having ranged CC spam and leaving kitten fields everywhere helps a lot.
Harbinger is not far behind either.

This sandbox is still awful. Same old.
The risk-reward ratio is simply putrid.

vindi popular at all skill lvls??? I can count on my 5 fingers over 1 week from doing ranked the encounters I have with vindis who are below plat. This is including my own team and excluding me out of it.