What is this stigma on thieves in wvw squadplay?

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Title.

Don't get me wrong I'm always a thief advocate for what we can do and as far as I'm aware we have some of the most busted traits that can target boon priority like stability and can completely remove it on one person.  

How can we fix this? New players come in,  start roaming because that's all they think they can do then I have to break it down for them to show results. 

Take CC guild,  I had a boon ball/zerg bust concept, we applied it and it continuously wrecked but as a sidecar only...why do we not have more thief wvw nerds out there willing to see stuff like this?

[Jackthetripper.9035]

Knowing when it's beneficial to let yourself  go off-tag in a zerg v zerg fight is some high difficulty stuff that the vast majority of WvW zerg players are unable to do correctly and consistently so it's a tactic that is useless to most guilds. I think guilds that have players skilled enough to do it typically just let it happen naturally because individual efforts require less coordination.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Title.

Don't get me wrong I'm always a thief advocate for what we can do and as far as I'm aware we have some of the most busted traits that can target boon priority like stability and can completely remove it on one person.  

How can we fix this? New players come in,  start roaming because that's all they think they can do then I have to break it down for them to show results. 

Take CC guild,  I had a boon ball/zerg bust concept, we applied it and it continuously wrecked but as a sidecar only...why do we not have more thief wvw nerds out there willing to see stuff like this?

There probably are some thieves and others who are working there but they might not be super obvious. I'm almost always running interception for our squads and I'll be a sort of 2v? split for them and I'll try to fill in missing support or utility, but I never join unless they invite. I don't want to be a wandering dot (especially being thief) for those commanders and they're not going to fit me into their squad build. Regardless, if I join squad or I'm working around them, I'm not likely to get help if I need it unless there's people who know me there and know what I usually do for them.

I build for that, but I can see a lot of players being disheartened by being last priority and a lot of other players there probably think those thieves or rangers or whatever are just leeching off of their fight. 

Also, I'll set things up and create opportunities like locking down mitigation and clearing boons or pulling aggro or disrupting a drive by being a 2v? split for a second but a lot can go into that and end up not having anyone capitalize on it. That might also be disheartening to people. 

[Junkpile.7439]

It's just weird that thief need to run in group when class whole point is that you can fight against blob alone. 🤦‍♂️

[Codename T.2847]

I mean you can go heal specter, I guess thats good - albeit a bit clunky. But yeah thief is eternally cursed to be the objectively best ganker and decapper and nothing else imo

[Riba.3271]

Thieves are bad in groupfights. Yea they can do something like spam barrier on commander, but as soon as fight gets bit more complex, they become useless.

 Issue is everything meaningful happens in 2 second engage every 15 seconds and thief can contribute very little in those 2 seconds. And even if there is build that can, they can only do it once.

Thieves are still amazing at scouting etc. For example it makes a big difference to fight outcome if you know that enemy is coming as soon as they leave keep rather than only when they're in vision of your commander. It is probably the only class that can 100% of time survive when in vision range of 30 people that includes willbenders and other mobile specs. Cutting off enemy supplies is also a good usage of thieves.

Overall, they really dropped ball with last expansion when they didn't add thief Greatsword as an AoE mobile melee weapon similar to katana. If your best weapon skill for blobfights is shotbow 4, you are not gonna be very good spec.

Edited July 29 by Riba.3271

[Sheff.4851]

33 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Title.

Don't get me wrong I'm always a thief advocate for what we can do and as far as I'm aware we have some of the most busted traits that can target boon priority like stability and can completely remove it on one person.  

How can we fix this? New players come in,  start roaming because that's all they think they can do then I have to break it down for them to show results. 

Take CC guild,  I had a boon ball/zerg bust concept, we applied it and it continuously wrecked but as a sidecar only...why do we not have more thief wvw nerds out there willing to see stuff like this?

Thief has some busted boon removal traits, it's true, and I think that if Renegade wasn't as good as it is at providing Alacrity, you may see people try and run support Specter because of it. The problem is that Renegade has Brutality (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Brutality) and in addition to generating its own Quickness from weapon swaps, it's usually sitting next to a Firebrand in party that's also generating Quickness.

It has a few very, very niche uses, like applying venoms in GvGs, and it's not uncommon for a Staff Daredevil to be top of damage meters within those specific types of fights. Like Jack said -- when you know it's safe to go off-tag and ruin somebody's day, it's powerful. But for open field, everything that Thief does is usually done better by another profession, and with less risk.

[Jobber.6348]

Thieves are not great in an upfront ball v ball clash but I've seen plenty of off-tag thieves literally cause the destruction of the enemy zerg by putting Seal Area over their gate exit and popping it, causing all of them to get run over. 

[bq pd.2148]

36 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Thief has some busted boon removal traits, it's true

the spear in a couple weeks will let thieves use one of those a lot better than any current weapon: rending shade.

the trait steals (applies them in 100% duration/intensity to the thief) 2 boons with stealth attacks, can only trigger per target once per stealth attack. however during beta one only needed to hit a single of the multi hit for the boon rip. target cap of 3 and 6 hits means it can hit up to 18 times and in theory 18 different targets with it, tho likely more like 6-7.  so thats 12-14 strips, every ~5 seconds as completing the skill chains should be easy in a melee clash. the stealth access skill on spear also has conditional boon strip that might add some more here or there.

the weapon is also hybrid which fits in with current celestial trend and one could easily build it for cele quickness deadeye, spamming strips, 25 might, fury, quickness, decent vigor and swiftness.

still not sure if it will be enough for people to accept the presence of a thief in their ranks, but i would say more consistent than high risk staff thief for open field.

Edited July 30 by bq pd.2148

[Dawdler.8521]

The only people that can stand being near a thief is another thief and even that is debatable.

[random.9803]

 Just delete thief or lock it in PVE where it can contribute>Waste of space toon.

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Title.

Don't get me wrong I'm always a thief advocate for what we can do and as far as I'm aware we have some of the most busted traits that can target boon priority like stability and can completely remove it on one person.  

How can we fix this? New players come in,  start roaming because that's all they think they can do then I have to break it down for them to show results. 

Take CC guild,  I had a boon ball/zerg bust concept, we applied it and it continuously wrecked but as a sidecar only...why do we not have more thief wvw nerds out there willing to see stuff like this?

I think this depends on tag. Personally I invite them to get pulls and chasers. But mileage will vary and I run a chill tag. So depends shard to shard and tag to tag. 

[One more for the road.8950]

I was about to mention, like Sheff, that thieves are used in things like GvG so if things change a bit around you might see them more in squads, depending on which way balance goes. It's also been used in niche roles before, with one or two, like cleaning up the field behind the squad, taking out downs that the main group leaves behind. I seem to remember a staff build that was used every now and then too.

Edited July 30 by One more for the road.8950

[One more for the road.8950]

I don't know if it would be stay on tag type of play though, would probably be like something like some necro and ele play a few years back, where you would let them do what they did best a bit off tag.

Edited July 30 by One more for the road.8950

[kash.9213]

12 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Thief has some busted boon removal traits, it's true, and I think that if Renegade wasn't as good as it is at providing Alacrity, you may see people try and run support Specter because of it. The problem is that Renegade has Brutality (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Brutality) and in addition to generating its own Quickness from weapon swaps, it's usually sitting next to a Firebrand in party that's also generating Quickness.

It has a few very, very niche uses, like applying venoms in GvGs, and it's not uncommon for a Staff Daredevil to be top of damage meters within those specific types of fights. Like Jack said -- when you know it's safe to go off-tag and ruin somebody's day, it's powerful. But for open field, everything that Thief does is usually done better by another profession, and with less risk.

I think people were misguided into expecting Specter to be a standard support option and slept on the fixer-upper design of it and are trying to fit into squad comps and then try to move with them instead of staying ahead of all sides. I have a template for healing and boon uptime, but I usually end up on my Specter-Acrobatics template anyway because normally I just need to put Protection up around my Tether or whoever I'm responding to for a couple of seconds at the right times. Even with baseline Power gear on that template, the janitor work I'm doing feels comparable to the healing template, even the Traversing Dusk heal is still a factor because it matters more to be there when it's needed instead of just trying to sustain it and the Acrobatics template sustains movement and response better. 

If a squad is short on slots, then definitely take something else, but if there's a seat open, a Specter who can triage enemy and ally targets on the fly might be what saves a fight. If they're just trying to sustain the one group they're in though they probably won't be a huge factor.

[Soilder.3607]

The Anet devs are presumably aware that Thief does not have a meta spot in zerg comps. As mentioned above, there are some niche uses that it currently fulfills.

 

Specter could fill the role of a party's healer/cleanser if it were given a mild redesign. Chiefly, the shadow shroud skills would need to have their supportive effects become unconditional and then rebalanced. 

 

I think the devs are keeping Thief out of the meta on purpose, because if they wanted thief to be meta they would've buffed it by now.

[oatsnjuices.1698]

in smallscale sa thief is absolutely s teir. top of the food chain. de is good too, the unlimited projectile block that also blinds keeps it stronger than any ranged class, and the sa keeps it out of reach of even the best players. A good sa thief or de is unmatched.

[cyberzombie.7348]

On 7/29/2024 at 12:55 PM, Jackthetripper.9035 said:

Knowing when it's beneficial to let yourself  go off-tag in a zerg v zerg fight is some high difficulty stuff that the vast majority of WvW zerg players are unable to do correctly and consistently so it's a tactic that is useless to most guilds. I think guilds that have players skilled enough to do it typically just let it happen naturally because individual efforts require less coordination.

Pretty much this, much like rangers thieves works best as flankers against zergs. Though rarely does a tag ever bother with the idea of mixed-unit tactics  unless there's another tag coordinating it.

Edit: Plus unless its a spectre, its rare to see a thief having a build designed for zerg fights.

Edited July 31 by cyberzombie.7348

[cajalbelvue.5319]

You're asking "in general" why are thieves not requested for each party? If thief had the best synergy to fit a squads party with the play style its commander, then ppl would comp with thieves. When the comp and commanders style is DPS FB Rene scourge scrapper, the thief is a weaker choice for the party