How to fight Harbingers

[Daenxi.4530]

ok this could go for PVP as well as WVW roaming but I guess I will just post this here, but yeah i am asking what the gameplan is for fighting 1v1 against Harbingers  as they seem to have a tool for everything and an answer for everything with no explicit weaknesses. I main Revenant and Thief and have defeated a Harbinger 1/10 times with a renegade and 0/10 times with a daredevil but I have had more luck with the Rifle Deadeye where causing burst damage and giving up cripple and immobilize whilst being able to outrun or projectile block the harbinger to avoid conditions and stay out of vital (melee range) drawn seems like a solid game plan.
Now as a renegade despite revenant having a good amount of mobility its susceptibility  to conditions and ability for harbinger to catch up to makes it an uphill battle.

So I am asking anybody else who fights and beats harbingers, what profession spec combinations and general rules do you have to share to do it?

[Arheundel.6451]

If a necro would be easy to beat..you would not see so many of them in PvP/WvW. There is no answer to your question other than you must be several times better than the one using necro ...who must be extremely bad to lose while using a necro 

[felincyriac.5981]

projectile hate

demon queen relic

don't throw your burst into their barrier they get from the heal elixir, wait for it to expire

they are pretty susceptible to cc

...and probably a bunch of other stuff that I am missing

[Arheundel.6451]

20 minutes ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

projectile hate

demon queen relic

don't throw your burst into their barrier they get from the heal elixir, wait for it to expire

they are pretty susceptible to cc

...and probably a bunch of other stuff that I am missing

Heard it all before...it works against terrible players using a necro, not uncommon ofc given how easy is to play

[Shagie.7612]

50 minutes ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

projectile hate

demon queen relic

don't throw your burst into their barrier they get from the heal elixir, wait for it to expire

they are pretty susceptible to cc

He has pretty poor access to 3 of those as Renegade, though.
If he goes Ventari for the good proj hate, he won't ever do enough damage to kill a Blood Bank Harb. A smart Harb will play close range whenever you swap Hammer too.
It's not a very good demon queen spec since it won't have very good access to poison.
And lastly, it doesn't have great CC (typically, 1 on hammer/shortbow and 0 on greatsword/sword+shield, and then a Kalla daze that also doubles as your stunbreak cus Jade Winds is too expensive) which also hurts its ability to proc Demon Queen, let alone catch it without a stunbreak up.

Pretty sure for Renegade specifically the answer is just don't do it lol they're basically the same kind of spec, one that sustains through doing damage, but Harb does it a whole lot better in 1v1s.

Edited August 11 by Shagie.7612

[Daenxi.4530]

6 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

He has pretty poor access to 3 of those as Renegade, though.
If he goes Ventari for the good proj hate, he won't ever do enough damage to kill a Blood Bank Harb. A smart Harb will play close range whenever you swap Hammer too.
It's not a very good demon queen spec since it won't have very good access to poison.
And lastly, it doesn't have great CC (typically, 1 on hammer/shortbow and 0 on greatsword/sword+shield, and then a Kalla daze that also doubles as your stunbreak cus Jade Winds is too expensive) which also hurts its ability to proc Demon Queen, let alone catch it without a stunbreak up.

Pretty sure for Renegade specifically the answer is just don't do it lol they're basically the same kind of spec, one that sustains through doing damage, but Harb does it a whole lot better in 1v1s.

Honestly at this point I am okay conceding with renegade to try and get more consistent kills against harbingers on my deadeye. Right now I am running celestial renegade roamer from metabattle because it does offer good tankyness and defence and I do well with it even against fundamentally unfavourable match ups for revenant (Mesmers,Engineers, but not thieves lol). The Celestial Renegade does well in attrition battles despite being very burst damaged based but the Harbinger (especially celestial) basically turns all of the benefits of celestial renegade into nothing I take burst damage, along with conditions and having to go on the defensive and start my condi cleanse chain (which revenants are weak at) as well as celestial renegade not having enough burst to pressure a harbinger around the same amount of mobility means I can never take back the initiative in the fight.
I have yet to try Marauder renegade because I don't have the gear for it but as I said before the Power deadeyes fundamental abilities seem like more of a natural counter to Harbinger regardless.

[bq pd.2148]

4 minutes ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

to try and get more consistent kills against harbingers on my deadeye.  Power deadeyes fundamental abilities seem like more of a natural counter to Harbinger regardless.

for WvW yes as you have the time to fight longer there, but harbinger sustain is also a lot better there thanks to cele.

while i do prefer axe, power deadeye has similar strength/weakness. more sustained damage and less burst than power axe.

a good harbinger will early on use their poison cloud for projectile hate to recover from some of the initial damage,  after it runs out as soon as he needs to resustain they will drop elite elixir and by the time they need to resustain again the cloud will be ready. but after the 2nd cloud they have a cooldown gap and will lose.

if they do not run the cloud or use a different order for their big defensive CDs, they run out of CDs faster and should drop faster. you just need to survive and pressure enough for them to run through those CDs. try not to burn too much until you know that you can finish the fight.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Harbinger is a hard matchup because of synergy with death and blood magic.  They probably need an adjustment. Demon queen doesnt work very well on them because they can purge poison.

Axethief works vs bad harbingers but stales good ones. Renegade, good luck.

They should be treated like more effective spellbreakers. Stale them if you must, but you'll probably need a buddy to kill them. 

Edited August 12 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[arazoth.7290]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Harbinger is a hard matchup because of synergy with death and blood magic.  They probably need an adjustment. Demon queen doesnt work very well on them because they can purge poison.

Axethief works vs bad harbingers but stales good ones. Renegade, good luck 

Reworking Blood bank trait, this trait is either OP or underpowered and atm it's more leaning towards option 1.

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Where is all this harb struggle coming from?

Everyone is referring to core necro utilities like cloud, or shared weapons like sword or pistol--outside of the Elite elixir, what does Harb actually have?

The shroud seemingly is just inferior to Reapers--can you not block the bolt attacks, and stuff like Vital Draw you can simply stunbreak and W key? Harb doesn't even get stability like Infusing Terror and maybe more importantly "Chilled to the Bone!" gives, so I just CC them to death. 

Like, Harb has stabi on their elite...much wow.  Guess you could take Implacable Foe, but you give up boon duration and ally share.  

Anyway, tldr; CC them.

[arazoth.7290]

26 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Where is all this harb struggle coming from?

Everyone is referring to core necro utilities like cloud, or shared weapons like sword or pistol--outside of the Elite elixir, what does Harb actually have?

The shroud seemingly is just inferior to Reapers--can you not block the bolt attacks, and stuff like Vital Draw you can simply stunbreak and W key? Harb doesn't even get stability like Infusing Terror and maybe more importantly "Chilled to the Bone!" gives, so I just CC them to death. 

Like, Harb has stabi on their elite...much wow.  Guess you could take Implacable Foe, but you give up boon duration and ally share.  

Anyway, tldr; CC them.

Pair a power harbringer with a good support and they are having a lot more sustain then reapers. Not that it is really done yet since condi reaper with support is still also really good and has certain other advantages.

It's not that power harbringer is really a problem (yet), it's more of an annoyance in certain 1v1's on node because Blood Bank trait with zakiros relic and more lifesteal mechanics ect. Giving them high self resustain + barrier uptime. 

Idk how much spear for necromancer will help this next week, idk if the soul shards life steal will be that significant ontop of this.

[Dreamonology.8362]

I don't really see harbs at all in spvp anymore, all condi proc reaper, as for wvw, its cele stat problem, wvw is a joke with balance these days, incredibly stupid builds because of cele armor and other dumb stats in that game mode, just have to play any of the other lame cele specs that have more cleanse or play perma stealth rifle deadeye. 

[Daenxi.4530]

20 hours ago, DivineDreaming.7206 said:

I don't really see harbs at all in spvp anymore, all condi proc reaper, as for wvw, its cele stat problem, wvw is a joke with balance these days, incredibly stupid builds because of cele armor and other dumb stats in that game mode, just have to play any of the other lame cele specs that have more cleanse or play perma stealth rifle deadeye. 

ok I understand this and my question is more geared towards fighting celestial harbingers in WvW but I am just shocked that such a straightforward  about general tactics is still getting no real answer, I mean I kind of had to answer my own question by explaining my game plan against harbingers using deadeye (And I still need to kill a lot more harbingers to be confident in it) but deadeye is  highly niche specialisation that other professions and specs can't really replicate. I am still waiting for someone to give some generalised principles that most professions could use to defeat harbinger but most classes just get torn apart in seconds without a chance to even fight back.

[Kuya.6495]

In wvw I always had success fighting harbs by using projectile blocks/reflects to neuter their ability to pressure me and allow me to free cast on them. I was running vindicator/ventari with shortbow. I haven't played wvw in a few months so not sure if the harb meta has changed in wvw though. 

[WingSwipe.3084]

On 8/10/2024 at 11:57 PM, Daenxi.4530 said:

So I am asking anybody else who fights and beats harbingers, what profession spec combinations and general rules do you have to share to do it?

Unless you are going for a 2v1 or are dead sure you can nuke them before they pop shroud, you dont fight them.

Same with any necro build in the current meta, if they get to shroud you are effectively put on the back foot instantly as you have to burn through another 15-25k effective hp with active damage reduction while they can freely apply 15k damage worth of condis.

Dont fail the 4 stunbreak and cleanse checks either, usually ends very poorly.

Dont see any harbs in SPvP though, Reaper and Scourge are far more oppressive.

Also, people saying "Just CC them" usually dont take into account that Implacable Foe and Elixir of Ambition is the meta choice for Harb any PvP/WvW build.

On 8/12/2024 at 10:05 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Harbinger is a hard matchup because of synergy with death and blood magic.  They probably need an adjustment. Demon queen doesnt work very well on them because they can purge poison.

Axethief works vs bad harbingers but stales good ones. Renegade, good luck.

They should be treated like more effective spellbreakers. Stale them if you must, but you'll probably need a buddy to kill them. 

This is good advice, if you can play them to a stalemate and win teamfights you can hit them with three players worth of damage.

The Spellbreaker approach for this is the correct one, you are only winning with more people.

[Mythras.2091]

Harb has no shroud health, but has some insane healing. Pop projectile hate and powerburst with some CC. If he cant escape and kite, he wont have time to heal up and also, if he cant do damage, its opressive healing drops significantly.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

10 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

ok I understand this and my question is more geared towards fighting celestial harbingers in WvW but I am just shocked that such a straightforward  about general tactics is still getting no real answe

Couple people said it without really saying it. Let me clear this up for you:

1. Harb and really Necro in general is bloated in this current patching.
2. You're not going to 1v1 and beat Harbingers right now unless you're running other bloated specs like Vindi or Staff Spellbreaker, or if you are able to greatly outplay the Harbinger.
3. The best bet to hope for right now, is to learn how to stall a Harbinger while surviving and waiting for a + rather than aiming to figure out how to kill it.

Necros lost their susceptibility to high powered ranged, due to the mobility creep and additional ranged options that SOTO brought in. Necro no longer has any clear counter class or counter strategies against it due to this. Due to sheer mobility creep, raw offensive/defensive output, and double return ports from Walk & Wurm, it isnt' even easy to gank it 2v1 nowadays.

As a newer player, try to focus more on avoiding Necros until there is someone with you to help 2v1 the Necro. Use your "Call Target" command more often to signal to team members that you need help targeting the Necro.

Edited August 14 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Frequency.6407]

Have you played a harb?

Try it. Note down class/specs that cause you problems.

Note down skills/abilities that are problematic for you.

What are your mechanical limitations as a harb?

Change your class/spec/build accordingly.

[youle.5824]

Me and ckod tested match up for his harb and while I didn't test every single meta build we did test a lot, best one was surprisingly power mirage. Overall it's a strong 1v1 build that you shouldn't 1v1 most of the time, it's low impact in team fight though and dies 1v2 faster than other meta side noder. Best tip is dodge sword 3 and 5 , one is obvious cc and other heal him like crazy. 

[youle.5824]

Creapers should not take that 1v1 ever.

[Eurantien.4632]

Ranger perspective: Projectile denial and win. Pretty easy with untamed and turtle pet. Or just out range them. Things that pew pew hate to get pew pew'd back.

Harb dmg mostly comes from them going into shroud, which is mostly projectile dmg. Deal with the CC on shroud 5. Projectile denial everything. I personally feel like harb is overrated.

Edited August 14 by Eurantien.4632

[Buran.3796]

On 8/10/2024 at 11:57 PM, Daenxi.4530 said:

ok this could go for PVP as well as WVW roaming but I guess I will just post this here,

So I am asking anybody else who fights and beats harbingers, what profession spec combinations and general rules do you have to share to do it?

  In PvP I run a gs+hammer Vindi but with bunker stats and traits, so the high uptime projectile block + good cleanses and ranged pressure (including cc) works well. Most of the time necros will think that I'm running a glass canon build which deals burst damage but is frail, but in reality I do consistent damage and rely in mobility + evades, blocks, cc and Jalis for self sustain. I don't miss Shiro at all since Nomad's Advance + Phantom Onslaught + Rapid Flow + relic of Wayfinder provides more than enough. Key is poking at range as much as possible since hammer hard counters pistol.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAEJlZSHsTqhhSOsU6hpSfsSKgn1UW0D-D6gXINWAZmC9GBi+fAAA

   Can't say much about WvW since there I ran cele Vindi short bow but imo was inferior to cele necros (some times I won or had a tie, but good Harbs usually defeated me). Currently I'm not playing WvW oftenly and I don't have a clear roaming build (have 3-4 Vindi builds, but not entirely sure about them).

[Jobber.6348]

Projectile Reflects. Harbs will kill themselves on reflects. 

My favourite is probably Condi Firebrand, especially on node. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Projectile Reflects. Harbs will kill themselves on reflects. 

They sure won't

Their shroud auto still is immune to reflecting for some strange reason. 

[arazoth.7290]

18 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

They sure won't

Their shroud auto still is immune to reflecting for some strange reason. 

bugged plot armor 😂