A New PvP Mode is Coming to Guild Wars 2--We Need Your Help Developing It!

[Alternatex.5734]

I'd like to see game mode where you can just fight the other but on 5v5  3-5 round system. I think it would help lot people learn combat or just enjoy fighting.

[Isopod.4156]

1 hour ago, Experimentee.7612 said:

I look forward to testing the new game mode. However, I'm already quite confused about the context for it and what it is trying to achieve. 

Is conquest really that complex to get into? I'm one of the stupidest people alive. I started playing PvP about 9 months ago (albeit I played alot of WvW before that). All I did was watch a couple of YouTube guides from Vallun. It was more than enough to get started. Since then, just by playing some conquest games and gaining experience, I've become far more familiar with the intricacies of conquest (and I still have much more to learn). It was, overall, a fun experience and if I can do it, I'm sure that anyone can. Some things that hampered my experience, though, were how many games were one.sided, how often AFK players completely ruined the game for all the other players, and the level of toxicity I saw in chat. Those are the real problems that need addressing in PvP, if you ask me.

In addition, I think Anet can improve the new player experience by not relying on external guides like Vallun's to teach players the basics of conquest. Anet probably should bring that ingame. Perhaps that can be in the form of an ingame interactive tutorial that explains slowly and clearly how it works. For that you could simply simulate a conquest game with a real player and NPCs in an instance and explain, step-by-step, what is happening and the kinds of things the player needs to think about.  

If I go along and accept that conquest is difficult to get into, then I don't think Push is a good stepping stone for getting players into conquest. From what has been written about Push already, Anet state that "multiple objectives" and "precise map awareness" are the things that players find challenging. Yet Push revolves around a single objective. Where is the opportunity here for players to get familiar with the idea of "multiple objectives" and "precise map awareness"? All you are doing is protecting players from the areas they supposedly find challenging. This will not help them on their journey to conquest. If you want to help players to get familiar with "multiple objectives" and "precise map awareness", you need something completely different. Maybe you have two nodes and 3vs3 instead of three nodes and 5vs5? Maybe you simplify the combat so players focus only on the objectives and rotations and not have to worry so much about builds and the combat itself - perhaps every player becomes a Choya and has one "push" skill that launches an opponent out of a node, and leave everything else (besides the unique map objectives) the same as standard conquest? 

I welcome another PvP game mode. One that is not intended as a stepping stone to conquest. One that also does not replace conquest either. Instead, one that alternates with conquest each ranked season. To help people into conquest, I think all you need is an ingame interactive tutorial and to fix things like matchmaking, afkers and toxicity. But if Anet insist that new players struggle with "multiple objective" and "precise map awareness", please redesign Push to actually help players to learn those things.

As someone who only played pvp during the event thing a couple months back, I don't think conquest as a mode is hard at all. The hard part is a. learning to actually coordinate with your team so you aren't running off and getting killed solo and b. actually learning to fight other players instead of brain dead mobs. Like I'm 100% sure there's more complicated strategy that I don't know about since I haven't played pvp since, but in terms of just the experience of trying it for the first time, the concept of capturing points and killing the enemy didn't feel particularly complicated.

Personally to me the biggest thing holding pvp back is the long queue times. Don't get me wrong people like me, no amount of shortened waiting would make me really want to play pvp. But I have to imagine having to just sit around and wait for a match to start for over a minute turns a lot of people away especially if you end up in a match that is very short and you lose and oh now you have to wait again. I don't know the solution to this though, if there is one. Historically pvp hasn't actually been that popular in mmos, it has its niche certainly, but a niche is a niche. Also the wait times being a big factor is legit just me guessing based on how much I hate having to wait for pve events lol.

[Woodix.6481]

Excited for the new mode, it sounds like fun.

Very disappointed that the beta replace the 2v2 season though, that was going to be my first one and I was really looking forward to it. 5V5 is great and all, but I'd love more diversity.

Spoiler

 

 

[Mazinger.1084]

Conquest suffers because of its stagnant game loop that hasn't been iterated on in any significant way for a long time and a lack of coherent balancing, not because of supposed complexity for new players.  I imagine it's actually insulting to new players to suggest they can't handle multiple objectives in a 5v5 game mode.

You've had such a long time to listen to your existing sPvP and WvW player base on what would make for a compelling competitive experience and a short escort mode is the best you can muster?  Open-world, festival "PvP" events have had more inspiration.

The fact that you're beta testing this before even committing to development speaks volumes.  You've been unwilling to put any kind of real effort or resources into making PvP content that might rival any of the myriad PvE releases in terms of quality and breadth.  Yeah it's early and I haven't seen much (if any) of what's in store, but I don't think most would hold that against me given this mode's history.  You've got a lot to prove on this one, and I remain skeptical that you can deliver.

[ShatteredStars.6548]

57 minutes ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

Hi Anet, I hope you read this post.

For this mode to be successful, you need these 2:

A) Allow swapping Build/Equipment Templates after death.

This is taken from the play book of Overwatch, which offered a similar Push / Defend mode. Unlike regular Conquest, this new Push mode has only one battle ground. If your team happens to pick the wrong builds at the start, the game is over. There is no recovery. You will keep running into the same 5v5 battle and lose again and again due to Build Composition. It will lead to frustration and more AFK as soon as they die during the first battle.

Instead, imagine allowing the player to change Build/Equipment Templates after death. After the first battle, your team wipe, and you realize you have no healer, you can change. If you realize the other team has too much Condi pressure, and you don't have enough cleanse, you can change. If you need more damage to overwhelm the enemy bunkers, you can change. This works out really well for Overwatch, and I'd even go as far as to say it contributes positively to Overwatch's initial success. Imagine when you die and can't change Overwatch heroes; it would be frustrating and AFK-inducing.

Remember, the other team can also change builds (after their deaths). That leads to more exciting matches, with more back and forth, leading to more viewership.

Other minor benefits:

• More revenue if people buy more Templates
• Incentive for people to communicate during the matches (builds / strategy) because you can actually change the match outcome even after a losing battle

B) New unique boon when the "Cloud" stops moving

With this new Push mode, it's almost guaranteed that a lot of people will try Bunker builds. The "Cloud" will not move in a stalemate. How would you break the stalemate?

New map wide boon: Brutality

• Gain one stack per second if the Cloud is not moving
• Lose one stack per second if the Cloud is moving
• Max 100 stack -- everyone on the map has the same number of stack
• Increase out going strike /condition damage by 1% per stack

This boon will allow Bunkers to delay the Cloud, but it will get increasingly harder to stall. The output damage during the battle increases over time during the stalemate, and the DPS would be able to overcome Bunkers. It doesn't invalidate Bunkers, since they can still slow down the progress while their team is regrouping. Managing how much Brutality stack you allow the map to reach would become an interesting mechanics that the best teams would employ to win. It would also be entertaining to watch.

Together with the ability to change build after deaths above, the match becomes very exciting. Would people alternate between Bunker and DPS when Brutality is low / high? Would teams have specialized composition based on location of the Cloud and Brutality level? What else would happen on the meta game level? If done right, this Push mode could be the most successful PvP mode you have. 

Thank you @Rubi Bayer.8493 and the team for reading. I'm excited to see how Push will land!

You dont get to decide if it will be successful because of your feedback.

Edited September 5 by ShatteredStars.6548

[Saiyan.1704]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

*oils it*

*hawk tuah*

[Tony.8659]

Push game mode sounds interesting, I will def try it out. It also reminds me of Overwatch (don't play anymore) and Paladins, which I still play where you have to push the payload.  😁

[Reznov.5423]

I love to play crystalline conflict in ff14. I am totally in to try out this payload mode in gw2!

[coro.3176]

1 hour ago, shoop.3829 said:

This is a cool idea, and I'm excited to try it! However, I feel like the biggest barrier to entry in PvP right now isn't the game mode or map mechanics, it's the overwhelming dominance of optimized builds and more experienced players. I used to be a casual but consistent PvP player (usually ranked high silver/low gold), but I haven't been playing much lately. I picked it back up for PvP Rush week and barely got the full rewards because it was just so frustrating! Sometimes I felt like my teammates and I were just being farmed by the other team, we couldn't even get to the capture points without getting 1-shot. I'm worried this imbalance won't be addressed for the Push mode, and more casual players will spend so much time dying or respawning that we won't get to enjoy the new mechanics much at all.

Yes, the post says "We noticed that players who are new to PvP found Conquest mode overwhelming,", but I think it's more PvP itself that is overwhelming.

PvP Combat has a high burden of knowledge

• You need to know your build inside and out - what it's good at, what it's weak at, its game plan, its strategy vs different types of opponents in general
• You need to know everyone else's build pretty well - what to expect from them. What skills they're going to use next, what those look like, and what you should do about them
• You need to know the meta - so you can narrow down the possibilities for what your opponents are playing

And none of that is taught in PvE-land. The only way to get it (afaik) is painful experience

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Wasn't a 10v10 mode in the works?

I second rolling in the activities formally into PvP in some sort of way. Variety is the spice of life after all.

Still 'football' mode sounds interesting, even if keg brawl kinda covers it already.

[shadow.6174]

4 hours ago, Spiral.3724 said:

Super Adventure Box PvP?

You know the SAB stuff (and plenty other stuff there) are just placeholders, right? 😜 Although that would be a funny concept.

[Cameirus.8407]

right off the bat I can feedback that the path need to not be a straight flat line.

[Yerlock.4678]

First impression is it looks like good fun, my only worry is bunker boon balls ruining it. Or premade teams still steamrolling newer players and still making them want to uninstall. Keep in mind that many pvp mains have been playing this mode for a very long time and the skill gap is very apparent.

• Edit: Just making sure secondary objectives are tempting enough to pull away roamers and duelist types, but not so strong that they force the teamfight there. And not worthless enough to where they're ignored.
• Also the node being that small might be fun to kite around to not get the debuff, but newer players won't have this intuition at first. So maybe making the node larger so that the debuff is felt more generally in the teamfight? Idk yet though will have to play it.
• Additionally, I'd watch out for ranged high burst builds, as they'd be able to shred people on the node without getting debuffs. (Power buff+ people contesting the node and having debuff= One shot ranged builds having a field day).

Look, any love in the pvp world I will absolutely praise, even if it's messy or not working at first ❤️ I Just find it odd that instead of fixing a mode that already exists and has a lot of potential (Stronghold), you guys decide to make an entirely new mode. Couldn't you kill two birds with one stone here? Why not reform Stronghold so that it's more fun and more new player friendly? You can bump up that 10% number, those are rookie numbers in this bracket.

You could turn Stronghold into one lane, make minions automatically spawn, no more getting supplies, reduce the healing effectiveness to npcs so they can't steamroll gates, make walls get slightly damaged from players if they attack them, and put some powerful tower mechanic on the gates or walls so that players have to use minions as cover to attack unless they want to take more damage. Voila, you have a more fun more simplified and faster Stronghold mode! Why not beta test this stuff that has already had most of the work done for you?? Get our feedback then keep updating it until Stronghold goes from 10% of play to freaking 40-50%.

 

 

Edited September 6 by Yerlock.4678

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

*hawk tuah*

spit on that thing !

[bethekey.8314]

Can we all take a moment to appreciate that when Anet realized they couldn't nerf weak and immobile Turrets further into irrelevance, they instead created a PvP mode with a mobile objective?

It really is a beautiful level of spite.

Edited September 6 by bethekey.8314

[Dahkeus.8243]

With the focus on a simple objective, I can't see how this will turn out any differently than the same snowballing we saw take place with death match.  Once a team wins a decisive victory in a relatively evenly matched team fight, the remainder of team fights for that match tend to be the same outcome or at least seem to be likely to end up that way to the point where most players stop caring and prefer to wait out the timer of the game instead of throwing themselves at what seems to be a losing situation. 

Currently conquest doesn't suffer from this to the same extent since you can hope to out-rotate an enemy when you are out-matched in fights.  However, when you just have a single objective, such as death matches and "push", losing the initial fight both demoralizes one team and puts them at a disadvantage by staggering their forces because of the respawn from players who died. 

I hope I am wrong about this...but I just don't see how any single objective PvP design in this game could turn out any differently when we have seen this extensively in the past.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

spit on that thing !

thang

get it right at least.

[arazoth.7290]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

thang

get it right at least.

nah

[Bazsi.2734]

Oh look at that. Turns out the developers do remember PvP exists. I think this is 6 years too late, but don't let my cynicism discourage the initiative... best of luck with developing new gamemodes! It might even end up revitalizing the gamemode, which can't be a bad thing.

[Chief.7143]

Give up on conquest. That is my advice. Move forward with something new. Not sure that push is the answer but Conquest is too conveluted.

[Shagie.7612]

Hope it's fun.

Curious to see if they'll do game-mode specific tuning considering how different the objective is and how hard it can be to do something like idk, kill double supp Chrono just bunkering on the payload.

[Last Crab.6054]

"Although it’s still early in development, this game mode is already becoming a favorite within our team, which is a good sign! "

I just hope the "team" doesn't include the discord mafia.

[Fipmip.7219]

this is basically teamfight: the showdown. i predict all too many matches boiling down to the better team comp and the other being powerless to stop it until the match is over. at least in conquest, the option to target nodes and avoid 5v5 combat is there. I hope there isnt any impenetrable bunker comp when it launches...

[Chaos God.1639]

helping with creating the new game mode sounds great and challenging.

why is it 5 vs 5? is it because it will be part of the current 5 vs 5 ranked/unranked games?

I think if there are more players, then there will be more space for inexperienced players to experiment/fail, because they will get helped by the stronger players to win the game.

I also think that adding a chance to change the build during a match can help inexperienced players. for example, this can happen only one time after one of the teams has reached 250/500 winning points. this can maybe be done for the current ranked 5 vs 5 matches too. this comeback mechanic can maybe help with hopelessness and experiments.
 

 

Edited September 6 by Chaos God.1639

[MangyBSTRD.5921]

If you want this to be successful you should add verticality. There should be opportunities for the team that's behind to set up ambushes. Let people attack from behind, the side, or even above. It's not as exciting when you have a good view of the defending team and they can't respond well.

Edited September 6 by MangyBSTRD.5921
Posted as quote on accident