How is this class bad?

[narcx.3570]

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

2) Boon striping isn't limited to Renegade,you can do it on core as well - it's just as weak when compared to chrono and scourge

The pro of using a Renegade for your boon strip is that you can remove 6 boons in a burst rather than waiting for Chronos' AA chains or making the chronos have to spike down their alacrity using sword 3 for it. While it's not that useful on fights like VG where it's just 1 boon you hafta get, it's super nice on bosses like Dhuum to instantly strip all his stolen boons. A Scourge can obviously also do this, but a scourge's DPS is much lower than a Condi Renegade... Especially after you factor in Assassin's Presence and Dhuum's large hitbox. (Also Unyielding Anguish and Staff 3/5 are both nice luxuries in the 10% phase.)

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@narcx.3570 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

2) Boon striping isn't limited to Renegade,you can do it on core as well - it's just as weak when compared to chrono and scourge

The pro of using a Renegade for your boon strip is that you can remove 6 boons in a burst rather than waiting for Chronos' AA chains or making the chronos have to spike down their alacrity using sword 3 for it. While it's not that useful on fights like VG where it's just 1 boon you hafta get, it's super nice on bosses like Dhuum to instantly strip all his stolen boons. A Scourge can obviously also do this, but a scourge's DPS is much lower than a Condi Renegade... Especially after you factor in Assassin's Presence and Dhuum's large hitbox. (Also Unyielding Anguish and Staff 3/5 are both nice luxuries in the 10% phase.)

Which part of Renegade enables such potent boon strip?I believe this feature eludes me from the abilities gained from Renegade specialization.I can remove 6 boons with core by spaming Banish Enchantment,but that skill is a feature of core Revenant.

[narcx.3570]

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

2) Boon striping isn't limited to Renegade,you can do it on core as well - it's just as weak when compared to chrono and scourge

The pro of using a Renegade for your boon strip is that you can remove 6 boons in a burst rather than waiting for Chronos' AA chains or making the chronos have to spike down their alacrity using sword 3 for it. While it's not that useful on fights like VG where it's just 1 boon you hafta get, it's super nice on bosses like Dhuum to instantly strip all his stolen boons. A Scourge can obviously also do this, but a scourge's DPS is much lower than a Condi Renegade... Especially after you factor in Assassin's Presence and Dhuum's large hitbox. (Also Unyielding Anguish and Staff 3/5 are both nice luxuries in the 10% phase.)

Which part of Renegade enables such potent boon strip?I believe this feature eludes me from the abilities gained from Renegade specialization.I can remove 6 boons with core by spaming Banish Enchantment,but that skill is a feature of core Revenant.

Yeah, I was directing that at "weak when compared to chrono and scourge," not core revenant... But, I'll stand by the argument that you need Renegade to boonstrip Dhuum, since nobody is going to let you play your core revenant in there in the first place.

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@narcx.3570 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

2) Boon striping isn't limited to Renegade,you can do it on core as well - it's just as weak when compared to chrono and scourge

The pro of using a Renegade for your boon strip is that you can remove 6 boons in a burst rather than waiting for Chronos' AA chains or making the chronos have to spike down their alacrity using sword 3 for it. While it's not that useful on fights like VG where it's just 1 boon you hafta get, it's super nice on bosses like Dhuum to instantly strip all his stolen boons. A Scourge can obviously also do this, but a scourge's DPS is much lower than a Condi Renegade... Especially after you factor in Assassin's Presence and Dhuum's large hitbox. (Also Unyielding Anguish and Staff 3/5 are both nice luxuries in the 10% phase.)

Which part of Renegade enables such potent boon strip?I believe this feature eludes me from the abilities gained from Renegade specialization.I can remove 6 boons with core by spaming Banish Enchantment,but that skill is a feature of core Revenant.

Yeah, I was directing that at "weak when compared to chrono and scourge," not core revenant... But, I'll stand by the argument that you need Renegade to boonstrip Dhuum, since nobody is going to let you play your core revenant in there in the first place.

True, no one will ever accept core Revenants in their party because when compared to the cores of other classes, core Revenant can not stand on it's own in end game content and any form of pvp, but what I am trying to do by underlining the fact that boon striping isn't limited to Renegade is to highlight that Herald and all future elite specs can do this much boon striping if need be .

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:(2) A renegade can boon strip. This is good, but they are neither as consistent nor as powerful as the chronomancer and scourge respectively.This is entirely situational. Renegade is taken for it's massive boon strip on Dhuum specifically because it can rip 10 boons from 100 energy in under 2.5 seconds.

(3) A healing rev can have decent uptime of alacrity. Chronomancer, however, does it much better.False: Renegade is better at providing alacrity than a chronomancer in every situation as it can provide 100% at all times. This is due to the fact that revenant does not require a target to maintain 100% alacrity. Chronomancer does. Bosses like Gorseval with phases are better for revenant alacrity.

(4) A healing rev is excellent at healing a group. However, the tempest does it in a much wider area and the druid does more.False: Healing revenant has the highest burst heals in the game and renegade has good sustain through it's heal skill and it's elite skill. Tempest is wider tho, but it can compete in terms of output.

(5) A renegade has average ramp up time and serviceable damage. However, it is beaten out by half of the classes.This only looks this way on benchmarks because Assassin's Presence isn't taken into account. It's a 1-5k dps increase for the subgroup (depending on who is in it), but isn't actually factored into its dps. Engineer is the only class with (slightly) higher dps that also provides a unique buff. This means that a 32k benchmarked rev is actually bringing 33-37k to the group, some of it is just spread to other classes and factored into their dps. This is the reason everyone loves warrior and druid; they do the same thing.

But, if you need a highly specialized role or if you're on a team that believes such, then the Rev is almost never an ideal option.I totally disagree with this. In fact, it's the specialization that makes rev strong. If you already have a druid and you need a second healer imo it's the best of the 4 options you could have. If you need an alacrity bot to complement a quickness firebrand it's as good/better than chrono. If you need really solid condi dps, it's one of the best for this. If you need a handkiter at deimos, it's by far the best option for this. People say it's a jack of all trades, which is true in some ways, but it's also incredibly good at being that highly specialized role as well. You can do literally everything besides decent power dps and quickness upkeep as a revenant.

Also btw, Revenant is the meta class on half the bosses in raids atm, so to say it's almost never ideal is wrong. It's only beaten out on bosses where Mirage or Power DPS is better, and even in those situations it's still respectable (with the exception of KC).

[Omnicron.2467]

Some really helpful comments in this thread. Will just add my 2cents of experience. I also saw the doom and gloom on the forums, but made a rev anyway and saw that despite it maybe not being an ideal meta class I had a lot of fun playing it so I was happy and boosted it to 80. I had fun for a few months, but recently I started feeling the staleness of the legend system. When you realise you cannot swap out skills and customise and play around with your class but that you are stuck doing the same thing over and over I got pretty bored with the class :( So coming back to your question about when the bubble will burst, I would say it takes a few months before you might get bored of the playstyle and frustrated by the limitations

[hypehype.9047]

has no invulnerable skill (unless you count herald heal which means you are forced to play herald) and no stealth,

so in pvp it will always be the first to get ganked.

block is useless as everyone (especially necros) have skills that can bypass block.

and has one of the worst down skills

so every fight be in pvp or WvW is you getting ganked, when people see you are playing rev they will target you first

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:(3) A healing rev can have decent uptime of alacrity. Chronomancer, however, does it much better.False: Renegade is better at providing alacrity than a chronomancer in every situation as it can provide 100% at all times. This is due to the fact that

revenant does not require a target to maintain 100% alacrity. Chronomancer does. Bosses like Gorseval with phases are better for revenant alacrity

.

(4) A healing rev is excellent at healing a group. However, the tempest does it in a much wider area and the druid does more.False: Healing revenant has the highest burst heals in the game and renegade has good sustain through it's heal skill and it's elite skill. Tempest is wider tho, but it can compete in terms of output.

I totally agree !) except that revenant is limited to the energy management ! so he can't at the same time exploit all his burst healing and keep alacrity + might (F2 skill on renegade) at 100% (not talking about the weapon skills either that he can't use instead of AA)

Managing the energy is a real struggle for me in party ! I could do so much but i run out of it most of the time.

[Super Hayes.6890]

Legend swapping should change the weapon bar not the utility bar. I know that would cause a complete re-work of the class but being able to select either weapon skills (interesting thought) or utility skills would open up some new build options. I play my Revenant off and on for short amounts of time cause it gets boring. I want it to be more fun cause it is a cool class concept but the lack of options gets boring for me.

[Oglaf.1074]

Personally, I think the class is "bad" because they directly copied the outdated GW1 system for it rather than reworking it into a more modern GW2 take on it.

I hate the energy system.

I hate the very limited skill selection.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:This is entirely situational. Renegade is taken for it's massive boon strip on Dhuum specifically because it can rip 10 boons from 100 energy in under 2.5 seconds.

I am not too familiar on Dhuum, but unless I miss my guess you have picked out the only situation in the entire game where you would need to rip that many boons. How about the rest of the game? All of fractals? All of dungeons? The overworld? The rest of the raids? I haven't encountered a single situation where Corrupt Boon is insufficient, or even "not better" than banish enchantment. Let alone Phantasmal Disenchanter, which is fire and forget

False: Renegade is better at providing alacrity than a chronomancer in every situation as it can provide 100% at all times. This is due to the fact that revenant does not require a target to maintain 100% alacrity. Chronomancer does. Bosses like Gorseval with phases are better for revenant alacrity.

It's really not, for a couple of reasons. First, the alacrity from a Rev is a high maintenance and requires consuming all energy to maintain it. Chronomancer alacrity is low maintenance, requiring only 2 Avengers to keep it up permanently. Second, alacrity for the revenant falls off the moment they need to do basically anything else, because their uptime is barely consistent. A chronomancer builds up a backlog of alacrity that carries itself over from fight to fight. This backlogs allows for a lot of leeway when it comes a party member's individual movements. Third, the healing rev requires a target, because otherwise they can't build up Kallas Fervor to stack might.

False: Healing revenant has the highest burst heals in the game and renegade has good sustain through it's heal skill and it's elite skill. Tempest is wider tho, but it can compete in terms of output.

When I say "does more" I am referring to the individual buffs and boons that the druid has. A rev can't burst heal if they're stacking alacrity. The magnitude of heals is fairly unimportant, as there is only one threshold you need to be concerned with: Enough/Not Enough. Tempest and Druid are Enough, so healing more than them is useless. The area of effect here is a big problem, because the healing rev's narrow range means I have to spend most of my time chasing down teammates with the tablet, instead of just healing.

This only looks this way on benchmarks because Assassin's Presence isn't taken into account. It's a 1-5k dps increase for the subgroup (depending on who is in it), but isn't actually factored into its dps. Engineer is the only class with (slightly) higher dps that also provides a unique buff. This means that a 32k benchmarked rev is actually bringing 33-37k to the group, some of it is just spread to other classes and factored into their dps. This is the reason everyone loves warrior and druid; they do the same thing.

Assassin's Presence is about a 6% damage increase to power damage in a full berserker setup. Regardless, any group buff has to compete with the fact that 6 of the other 8 classes have higher sustained damage, beating out only the warrior and necromancer. In fractals, there's only 2 spaces for additional DPS specs after you have chrono/druid/BS, so Assassin's Presence is only useful to one other guy. You can give a few small buffs to the entire group, or you can just play one of the other 6 classes and have that DPS baked in to your toon.

I totally disagree with this. In fact, it's the specialization that makes rev strong. If you already have a druid and you need a second healer imo it's the best of the 4 options you could have. If you need an alacrity bot to complement a quickness firebrand it's as good/better than chrono. If you need really solid condi dps, it's one of the best for this. If you need a handkiter at deimos, it's by far the best option for this. People say it's a jack of all trades, which is true in some ways, but it's also incredibly good at being that highly specialized role as well. You can do literally everything besides decent power dps and quickness upkeep as a revenant.

Also btw, Revenant is the meta class on half the bosses in raids atm, so to say it's almost never ideal is wrong. It's only beaten out on bosses where Mirage or Power DPS is better, and even in those situations it's still respectable (with the exception of KC).

Citation needed. That said, a Rev is never a meta class in fractals, because the small teams means you don't have the breathing room. A 10 man raid squad is capable of fielding a rev because the overall capabilities of the squad are huge, and there is something to gain by gathering as many unique buffs as possible. If you're telling me that, even with 10 places and assassin's presence, a rev isn't good enough for half of the raids, then that signifies a problem, especially when compared to other classes. What bosses exempt Mesmers, Elementalists, Rangers, Warriors, Guardians, and Engineers?

[otto.5684]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:(2) A renegade can boon strip. This is good, but they are neither as consistent nor as powerful as the chronomancer and scourge respectively.This is entirely situational. Renegade is taken for it's massive boon strip on Dhuum specifically because it can rip 10 boons from 100 energy in under 2.5 seconds.

(3) A healing rev can have decent uptime of alacrity. Chronomancer, however, does it much better.False: Renegade is better at providing alacrity than a chronomancer in every situation as it can provide 100% at all times. This is due to the fact that

revenant does not require a target to maintain 100% alacrity. Chronomancer does. Bosses like Gorseval with phases are better for revenant alacrity

.

(4) A healing rev is excellent at healing a group. However, the tempest does it in a much wider area and the druid does more.False: Healing revenant has the highest burst heals in the game and renegade has good sustain through it's heal skill and it's elite skill. Tempest is wider tho, but it can compete in terms of output.

(5) A renegade has average ramp up time and serviceable damage. However, it is beaten out by half of the classes.This only looks this way on benchmarks because Assassin's Presence isn't taken into account. It's a 1-5k dps increase for the subgroup (depending on who is in it), but isn't actually factored into its dps. Engineer is the only class with (slightly) higher dps that also provides a unique buff. This means that a 32k benchmarked rev is actually bringing 33-37k to the group, some of it is just spread to other classes and factored into their dps. This is the reason everyone loves warrior and druid; they do the same thing.

But, if you need a highly specialized role or if you're on a team that believes such, then the Rev is almost never an ideal option.I totally disagree with this. In fact, it's the specialization that makes rev strong. If you already have a druid and you need a second healer imo it's the best of the 4 options you could have. If you need an alacrity bot to complement a quickness firebrand it's as good/better than chrono. If you need really solid condi dps, it's one of the best for this. If you need a handkiter at deimos, it's by far the best option for this. People say it's a jack of all trades, which is true in some ways, but it's also incredibly good at being that highly specialized role as well. You can do literally everything besides decent power dps and quickness upkeep as a revenant.

Also btw, Revenant is the meta class on half the bosses in raids atm, so to say it's almost never ideal is wrong. It's only beaten out on bosses where Mirage or Power DPS is better, and even in those situations it's still respectable (with the exception of KC).

Without getting too much in the weeds, condi renegede is out dpsed by ele, FB and soul beast. The alacrity role is niche at best, since even if you can do alacrity, you cannot do quickness. In addition the dps build provides no support. The ramp up of damage is huge. And above all, it does not even remotely work sPvP or WvW.

So if you are looking at middle of the pack dps with no burst or support, that only works in raids, renegade is your thing.

I cannot see how is this a functional elite or why anyone would play it, beside liking the animations or style. And this goes to rev in general.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I am not too familiar on Dhuum, but unless I miss my guess you have picked out the only situation in the entire game where you would need to rip that many boons. How about the rest of the game? All of fractals? All of dungeons? The overworld? The rest of the raids? I haven't encountered a single situation where Corrupt Boon is insufficient, or even "not better" than banish enchantment. Let alone Phantasmal Disenchanter, which is fire and forget.

The only situations in the game where you legitimately need boon strip are Dhuum/VG (blue guardian) and fractals. Renegade is the best at boon strip for Dhuum and can do the job fine in fractals if needed. Also, if you're taking a necromancer for their boon strip it would be a dps loss, since they objectively have worse dps than condi renegade. And since you're very dps focused, this would be bad, right ;)But chono ofc does it fine in fractals and I'm not saying it's better than chrono at it for that.

It's really not, for a couple of reasons. First, the alacrity from a Rev is a high maintenance and requires consuming all energy to maintain it. Chronomancer alacrity is low maintenance, requiring only 2 Avengers to keep it up permanently. Second, alacrity for the revenant falls off the moment they need to do basically anything else, because their uptime is barely consistent. A chronomancer builds up a backlog of alacrity that carries itself over from fight to fight. This backlogs allows for a lot of leeway when it comes a party member's individual movements. Third, the healing rev requires a target, because otherwise they can't build up Kallas Fervor to stack might.

Having played alacrity renegade alongside dozens of chronomancers, I can honestly say the alacrity generation is superior. I've compared my alacrity rev with all of these chronos, several of whom are quite expert at their class, and Support Renegade alacrity generation is usually 20% higher than the chronos. It definitely is higher maintenance, but with the changes to Charged Mists, if you don't need/want Devastation, it gives an extra 25 energy per 10s for you to do more damage/cc/heal/provide extra alacrity with.

I know you mention the "backlog of alacrity" but Renegade does this as well, especially with Charged Mists. Not only that, but I don't think you really understand exactly how much the chrono needs a target to maintain alacrity and how much that actually impacts their alacrity generation in practice. On a boss like Gorseval the 33% phases make it so chrono maintains barely any alacrity during the spirit phase, even with the backlog.

And as mentioned, I've analyzed my logs for these. I'm not just talking hypotheticals, I'm saying that in practice Renegade alacrity generation f that is what the renegade is focused on doing is equivalent or better than a chrono. 9 times out of 10 it was 20% better.* This was before Charged Mists as well, which makes it even easier for the renegade to maintain that alacrity.

As for Kalla's Fervor, it's irrelevant to the alacrity conversation as it doesn't impact it. The mentioning of Chronomancer requiring a target was for alacrity generation, not might, so renegade requiring a target for might generation is unimportant...Also should be mentioned that it takes literally 2 seconds to generate 5 stacks of Fervor, probably even less time. Might generation tho isn't something that needs to necessarily be covered by rev tho...and almost anything that generates might also requires a target....so...yeah...not really sure where you're going with that...

When I say "does more" I am referring to the individual buffs and boons that the druid has. A rev can't burst heal if they're stacking alacrity. The magnitude of heals is fairly unimportant, as there is only one threshold you need to be concerned with: Enough/Not Enough. Tempest and Druid are Enough, so healing more than them is useless. The area of effect here is a big problem, because the healing rev's narrow range means I have to spend most of my time chasing down teammates with the tablet, instead of just healing.

Sure druid does more and obviously that makes it meta in every situation in the game. I'm not saying it's better than a single Druid, because that would be objectively false.

Only 1 healer is meta in raids now, so that leaves the group to drop a healer for a dps OR grab a dps off healer (like condi druid or dps renegade support) OR grab a 2nd healer. The 2nd healer now can be pretty much anything, provided it does the job. Druid really isn't needed in twos and this leaves rooms for groups to take a healing tempest/revenant/firebrand, all of which have different niches. Imo, Revenant is generally the best option out of all the possibilities for that 2nd healing spot because it really does bring a lot to the table. Tempest ofc is great as well, but the two are like night and day in terms of how they heal and what they're good at.

Also, Healing revenant doesn't have to be used for alacrity. In fact, it should really only be used as its subgroups primary alacrity producer if you have a quickness firebrand instead of a chrono. Otherwise it's just there for the heals and supplemental buffs. Also it should be noted I've hit over 10k Natural Harmony heals (20 energy), so its alacrity rotation is half just spamming 10k heals constantly. Pretty bursty even with low energy.

Assassin's Presence is about a 6% damage increase to power damage in a full berserker setup. Regardless, any group buff has to compete with the fact that 6 of the other 8 classes have higher sustained damage, beating out only the warrior and necromancer. In fractals, there's only 2 spaces for additional DPS specs after you have chrono/druid/BS, so Assassin's Presence is only useful to one other guy. You can give a few small buffs to the entire group, or you can just play one of the other 6 classes and have that DPS baked in to your toon.

I mean, sure, you can play a higher dps for fractals, but the differences are slim overall. 1-4k dps isn't that big of a deal unless you're speedrunning. The issue with fractals is that power is still largely better than condi in most of the content due to burst being better than sustain. However, Ive never been rejected from fractals (including CM) as a revenant and my CM runs have never felt bad or lacking in damage.

Citation needed. That said, a Rev is never a meta class in fractals, because the small teams means you don't have the breathing room. A 10 man raid squad is capable of fielding a rev because the overall capabilities of the squad are huge, and there is something to gain by gathering as many unique buffs as possible. If you're telling me that, even with 10 places and assassin's presence, a rev isn't good enough for half of the raids, then that signifies a problem, especially when compared to other classes. What bosses exempt Mesmers, Elementalists, Rangers, Warriors, Guardians, and Engineers?

Citation: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/Click on each individual boss. They give optimal compositions for all of them.

Sure, Revenant is only "meta" in half of raid bosses HOWEVER *Elementalist/Guardian are only meta on half and Engineer is only meta on about 80% (due to pinpoint distribution). So yes, there are bosses that exempt ele/guardian/engi as well. And ofc, this is purely from a speedrunning meta perspective. In reality, Condi Renegade does just fine on every boss except for KC. For raid bosses it's not an issue of "revenant is bad so it's not meta on all bosses." It's an issue of "half of raid bosses prefer power and half of them prefer condi" (which imo isn't a big deal, as for everything besides KC power or condi still do fine, just not optimal). The only classes that are meta on every single boss are chrono/berserker/druid, but that's understandable.

Fractals are fractals. ^as mentioned above I've never had an issue with them as a revenant.

I'm not trying to say that Revenant is better than every single class in every situation, but to argue that it's not good or not viable (or even optimal) is flawed and false.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Without getting too much in the weeds, condi renegede is out dpsed by ele, FB and soul beast. The alacrity role is niche at best, since even if you can do alacrity, you cannot do quickness. In addition the dps build provides no support. The ramp up of damage is huge. And above all, it does not even remotely work sPvP or WvW.

So if you are looking at middle of the pack dps with no burst or support, that only works in raids, renegade is your thing.

I cannot see how is this a functional elite or why anyone would play it, beside liking the animations or style. And this goes to rev in general.

It might be "outdpsed" by FB and Soulbeast, but there's a reason FB isn't meta on any raid boss and Soulbeast is only meta on like 2 of them. Condi Renegade is consistent and brings Assassin's Presence and this makes it better in practice than either of those two options. FB is also not great in practice due to Ashes of the Just getting eaten by random mobs. Ele ofc is always better on options that prefer power, but that's the way it's always been so meh. Ele isn't a better condi spec tho.

The alacrity role is niche, sure, but alongside a Quickness Firebrand it works fine, and I have two friends who play that, so combos well ;)

It's a condi spec so I'm not sure why you're looking for burst on it...and its support is fine

Sure renegade sucks in sPvP and WvW, but Hammer Rev is meta in WvW and Herald does fine in sPvP if you know what you're doing, so you can still play revenant in those game modes just have to swap off of Renegade. And not all of revenant is renegade and the OP is largely talking about revenant as a whole. Ofc Renegade needs help in both pvp modes, but that's a different conversation...

And renegade is quite functional in all of PvE tho so I wouldn't call it dysfunctional. Perhaps it's not your style, which is fine, not all elite specs are intended for everyone.

[Dabrixmgp.4758]

this class is total garbage. I cant even solo the Hero points in order to even pick an Elite specialization. Tried as Condi and then Power. Deleting this waste of space now. I wanted to WvW with him but if Im not allowed to solo the Hero Points in order to become Herald then I surely cant even kill a real player. Might go try the HoT ones first since I read Revs were OP in HoT. Hopefully they will be easier to solo.

[warlordo.9576]

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:So this class didnt exist when i quit so giving it a shot after returning. I know leveling doesnt really count but Im having lots of fun. Also when I switch to my Guardian to do WvW theres always quite a few Revs running around. Yet when I see the first page of this forum its all doom and gloom and this is the worst class in the history of MMOs. Can someone please tell me when I will stop having fun and start being the red-headed step child of the gaming world so I can prepare myself?

Revs get a lot of hate now because on release they were Gods, but got that super nerf hammer

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

My 2 cents:legend skills are far stronger than weapon skills,to the point where you only need auto attackthere is no legend or traitline which actively promotes the use of weapons over legend skills - for example a legend which only has a good stun break and heal,but mediocre to weak utilities - think kala,but all the effects from that legend are centered around yourself.there are few weapon skills which can be considered good and are used the same way other classes use utilities (sword 3, staff 5, axe 4 are the top 3)Retribution and Herald are the only viable tank/bruiser spec for Revenant, seeing how Retribution has been guted to be bad without Herald*weapons developed for elite spec are mediocre(shield)/terrible(shortbow) pve only stuff, shield 5 is good when you mess something up and shield 4 is a situational support spell you can cast when you aren't using Ventari legend or Herald ult and Shortbow is the weapon the Revenant community never wanted,we would have been better off with an elite spec that gives us 2 legends and no weapons.

[Caeledh.5437]

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:Can someone please tell me when I will stop having fun and start being the red-headed step child of the gaming world so I can prepare myself?

When you get to the elites, which completely change the nature of the profession and not in a good way.The freedom you enjoy with the non-elites, which have few and very short cooldowns except for the self-heals, disappears. You're reduced to pre-determined optimal rotations based on cooldowns. At that point you may as well just play any other profession.Rev's elites are why I play ESO now instead, even with it's borderline demonic monetization.

[narcx.3570]

@otto.5684 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:(2) A renegade can boon strip. This is good, but they are neither as consistent nor as powerful as the chronomancer and scourge respectively.This is entirely situational. Renegade is taken for it's massive boon strip on Dhuum specifically because it can rip 10 boons from 100 energy in under 2.5 seconds.

(3) A healing rev can have decent uptime of alacrity. Chronomancer, however, does it much better.False: Renegade is better at providing alacrity than a chronomancer in every situation as it can provide 100% at all times. This is due to the fact that

revenant does not require a target to maintain 100% alacrity. Chronomancer does. Bosses like Gorseval with phases are better for revenant alacrity

.

(4) A healing rev is excellent at healing a group. However, the tempest does it in a much wider area and the druid does more.False: Healing revenant has the highest burst heals in the game and renegade has good sustain through it's heal skill and it's elite skill. Tempest is wider tho, but it can compete in terms of output.

(5) A renegade has average ramp up time and serviceable damage. However, it is beaten out by half of the classes.This only looks this way on benchmarks because Assassin's Presence isn't taken into account. It's a 1-5k dps increase for the subgroup (depending on who is in it), but isn't actually factored into its dps. Engineer is the only class with (slightly) higher dps that also provides a unique buff. This means that a 32k benchmarked rev is actually bringing 33-37k to the group, some of it is just spread to other classes and factored into their dps. This is the reason everyone loves warrior and druid; they do the same thing.

But, if you need a highly specialized role or if you're on a team that believes such, then the Rev is almost never an ideal option.I totally disagree with this. In fact, it's the specialization that makes rev strong. If you already have a druid and you need a second healer imo it's the best of the 4 options you could have. If you need an alacrity bot to complement a quickness firebrand it's as good/better than chrono. If you need really solid condi dps, it's one of the best for this. If you need a handkiter at deimos, it's by far the best option for this. People say it's a jack of all trades, which is true in some ways, but it's also incredibly good at being that highly specialized role as well. You can do literally everything besides decent power dps and quickness upkeep as a revenant.

Also btw, Revenant is the meta class on half the bosses in raids atm, so to say it's almost never ideal is wrong. It's only beaten out on bosses where Mirage or Power DPS is better, and even in those situations it's still respectable (with the exception of KC).

Without getting too much in the weeds, condi renegede is out dpsed by ele, FB and soul beast.

I don't think a firebrand or soul beast is beating a Renegade in total dps contribution unless the Renegade is using the wrong build or is just abysmal at aiming their skills... You can't underestimate how strong Assassin's Presence is in a game that's pretty much based around passive damage modifier stacking. Even in a full condi sub, a little bit of ferocity scales really well with full Viper's Gear (It's part of the reason why Runes of Renegade beat Berserker for most builds.) But let's also be honest, the days of 100% condi dps groups are pretty much over save for a few bosses--and all of them except Desmina and 1/2 of Matthias have Large Hitboxes, which Renegade annihilates.

Well, I guess in fractals SB/FB beats Renegade pretty hard due to their shorter ramp up times, but if you're really into min/max'ing fractals you're not bringing any of the condi classes... (Weaver/DH/Holo only.)

[jaif.3518]

@elitegamerz.4965 said:

The meta build for Rev in WvW is zerk hammer. Coalescence of Ruin hits like 15 enemies on a really short CD and it hits like a freight train. You can 1 or 2 shot people with it at max range.

I want to emphasize this. The backline hammer build is a perfect glass cannon. Herald gives you tools to help yourself and others on the backline, and the hammer hits hard.

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@jaif.3518 said:

@elitegamerz.4965 said:

The meta build for Rev in WvW is zerk hammer. Coalescence of Ruin hits like 15 enemies on a really short CD and it hits like a freight train. You can 1 or 2 shot people with it at max range.

I want to emphasize this. The backline hammer build is a perfect glass cannon. Herald gives you tools to help yourself and others on the backline, and the hammer hits

hard

.

Do you have any feedback regarding Renegade Hammer builds? Or any WvW build that uses Renegade?

[narcx.3570]

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@jaif.3518 said:

@elitegamerz.4965 said:

The meta build for Rev in WvW is zerk hammer. Coalescence of Ruin hits like 15 enemies on a really short CD and it hits like a freight train. You can 1 or 2 shot people with it at max range.

I want to emphasize this. The backline hammer build is a perfect glass cannon. Herald gives you tools to help yourself and others on the backline, and the hammer hits

hard

.

Do you have any feedback regarding Renegade Hammer builds? Or any WvW build that uses Renegade?

I mean teeeeeechnically a Power Renegade's Hammer would hit a little harder than a Power Herald's (16.66% critical damage bonus vs the ~10% dmg bonus of Elder's Focus) and your Alacrity generation from F3 is actually pretty super useful in WvW team fighting... But you lose out on all of the aoe boon support and personal survivability that Herald gives you, which is just not worth it, imo... Especially losing Facet of Light, which is still pretty mandatory to have for all forms of Revenant PvP.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Buran.3796" said:Go PvP or WvW roaming and try to duel some Mirage. Then go PvE raids and try to be accepted in pug raids with any build outside condi viper Renegade.

Yeah because you should TOTALLY base how fun/viable a class is in general based on ONE condi class (that will be heavily nerfed. That rage at the fact they were BUFFED during the condi "nerf" patch will make sure of that) and totally ignore ALL the other classes that you will see in WvW both roaming and groups. Every. Single person is a Condi Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage. Oh. Wait. They aren't. Pug raids also don't really count as if a class is viable or not, or does it define the class being fun or not. Raids arent the ONLY thing in PvE.

[Buran.3796]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Buran.3796" said:Go PvP or WvW roaming and try to duel some Mirage. Then go PvE raids and try to be accepted in pug raids with any build outside condi viper Renegade.

Yeah because you should TOTALLY base how fun/viable a class is in general based on ONE condi class (that will be heavily nerfed. That rage at the fact they were BUFFED during the condi "nerf" patch will make sure of that) and totally ignore ALL the other classes that you will see in WvW both roaming and groups.

Currently Herald is bad at any PvP role; core Revenant and Renegade just doesn't exist in that game mode. Of course you can reach legend tier with a Herald if you are good enough, mostly because the population is so low that really ranks means next to nothing. But if the old tournaments & ESL league were in place no team would use a Revenant class in its current state.

You can't hold a control points vs a bruiser as a Revenant. You can't kill a tank as a Revenant. You can't outpace a Thief, Mesmer, Warrior or Ranger moving along the map as a Revenant. You can't spike as hard as a Mirage, a Holosmith of a Scourge as a Revenant and you can't build a support spec able to compete with Firebrand/Druid/Mirage as a Revenant. That's not "a problem with a single class": fills the whole spectrum. By the way I really don't care abut PvE, aside from gathering and selling (Rev at least is good at gathering: Impossible Odds on demand).

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@"Buran.3796" said:

Currently Herald is bad at any PvP role; core Revenant and Renegade just doesn't exist in that game mode. Of course you can reach legend tier with a Herald if you are good enough, mostly because the population is so low that really ranks means next to nothing. But if the old tournaments & ESL league were in place no team would use a Revenant class in its current state.

You can't hold a control points vs a bruiser as a Revenant. You can't kill a tank as a Revenant. You can't outpace a Thief, Mesmer, Warrior or Ranger moving along the map as a Revenant. You can't spike as hard as a Mirage, a Holosmith of a Scourge as a Revenant and you can't build a support spec able to compete with Firebrand/Druid/Mirage as a Revenant. That's not "a problem with a single class": fills the whole spectrum. By the way I really don't care abut PvE, aside from gathering and selling (Rev at least is good at gathering: Impossible Odds on demand).

I think you mean sPvP. Hammer Revenant is one of the best damage dealing boon bot builds there....it's so good people are praying for nerfs on the hammer (source: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/24588/what-do-you-want-out-of-the-upcoming-class-balance-patch#latest ).For WvW Hammer Herald has 2 alternative builds - Retribution instead of Deva for passive dwarf and Eye for an Eye (op tower dismount on any cc),optional dwarf stance instead of shiro for more dwarf rites and Salvation instead of Deva for them heals + protection and allacrity spam.