Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXA9qy5Zfc0&feature=youtu.be

For purpose of forum discussion, I recorded a completely random day of PUGing T4s, while using a non raid meta scourge:

• 0:00 - Non meta Scourge doesn't give a flux about what LFG group to join and joins the first most generalized LFG possible, with no requirements.
• 2:35 - Party running raid metas begin to wipe.
• 3:55 - One player logs off to log onto a druid because "we needed a druid". Leaving party 4 man DPS for 3:20s.
• 7:10 - Druid finally comes back and party regroups. Notice how often the party is still being downed, especially the raid chrono.
• 14:07 The non raid meta scourge solos Ascalonian mob "which is often the source of team wipes at Dulfy" while meta raid subgroup almost wipes vs. just Dulfy and 1 pot of burning oil.
• 24:15 - Non meta scourge openly invites bad players to join for T4 Chaos so that it can carry them.
• 35:50 - Non meta scourge carries team wipe through boss.

39:00 minute completion even on a bad day of PUGing LFG.

@"Yasi.9065"

1. You're telling me that you bring in an elite raid subgroup for average 30 minute clear? Notice the hard solo carry in 39:00 minutes in the above video, on a non raid meta build, even after having to join a 2nd group to complete the final T4. You sure that raid meta is really speeding things up?
2. You imply again, that it would take me 90 minutes with a poor random group to complete 3x T4 dailies but the above video shows otherwise. For the amount of time & effort you seem to be telling me that you put into organizing elite raid subgroups, it doesn't seem to me like it is making much of a difference for you.
3. "You can survive with raid dps with no druid in fractals". I here a lot of people say this but it isn't true. Day to day, this fact becomes more and more prevalent. Maybe VERY GOOD players are able to do it for awhile but there are situations/places/mechanics in fractals where you simply cannot survive and complete the mechanic on a raid DPS. The underground facility is a great example of a bad place for a full group of raid dps with no druid to be forced to stand on panels and face tank damage.
4. "Custom builds and carrying fractals" There is much you are misunderstanding about these two aspects. Refer to the posted video.
5. No one joins a group wanting to have to solo content but you should expect it to happen if you are PUGing fractals with people that you do not know because it happens often, despite how long you wait in attempts to find a perfect meta group "visually" but ends up being players who are just bad.

But thank you for your postI hope you enjoyed the video

[Seera.5916]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXA9qy5Zfc0&feature=youtu.be

For purpose of forum discussion, I recorded a completely random day of PUGing T4s, while using a non raid meta scourge:

• 0:00 - Non meta Scourge doesn't give a flux about what LFG group to join and joins the first most generalized LFG possible, with no requirements.
• 2:35 - Party running raid metas begin to wipe.
• 3:55 - One player logs off to log onto a druid because "we needed a druid". Leaving party 4 man DPS for 3:20s.
• 7:10 - Druid finally comes back and party regroups. Notice how often the party is still being downed, especially the raid chrono.
• 14:07 The non raid meta scourge solos Ascalonian mob "which is often the source of team wipes at Dulfy" while meta raid subgroup almost wipes vs. just Dulfy and 1 pot of burning oil.
• 24:15 - Non meta scourge openly invites bad players to join for T4 Chaos so that it can carry them.
• 35:50 - Non meta scourge carries team wipe through boss.

39:00 minute completion even on a bad day of PUGing LFG.

@"Yasi.9065"

1. You're telling me that you bring in an elite raid subgroup for average 30 minute clear? Notice the hard solo carry in 39:00 minutes in the above video, on a non raid meta build, even after having to join a 2nd group to complete the final T4. You sure that raid meta is really speeding things up?
2. You imply again, that it would take me 90 minutes with a poor random group to complete 3x T4 dailies but the above video shows otherwise. For the amount of time & effort you seem to be telling me that you put into organizing elite raid subgroups, it doesn't seem to me like it is making much of a difference for you.
3. "You can survive with raid dps with no druid in fractals". I here a lot of people say this but it isn't true. Day to day, this fact becomes more and more prevalent. Maybe VERY GOOD players are able to do it for awhile but there are situations/places/mechanics in fractals where you simply cannot survive and complete the mechanic on a raid DPS. The underground facility is a great example of a bad place for a full group of raid dps with no druid to be forced to stand on panels and face tank damage.
4. "Custom builds and carrying fractals" There is much you are misunderstanding about these two aspects. Refer to the posted video.
5. No one joins a group wanting to have to solo content but you should expect it to happen if you are PUGing fractals with people that you do not know because it happens often, despite how long you wait in attempts to find a perfect meta group "visually" but ends up being players who are just bad.

But thank you for your postI hope you enjoyed the video

So please, tell me, what did people do before HoT was launched?

Druids aren't required.

[Vinceman.4572]

The fact that the fight against the ettin, shaman, veteran and the rabbit in uncategorized takes two or three times longer than in my casual meta pug groups is proof enough for me. I just had to see this fight and I knew what's going on. It's the reason why I run power meta. #shudder

[Evellynn Capone.6584]

@Seera.5916 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXA9qy5Zfc0&feature=youtu.be

So please, tell me, what did people do before HoT was launched?

Druids aren't required.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" Entertaining as it is, what does it tell us? If I didn't play on a potatoe I could record my pug runs and show you that a pick up group with healer, chrono, warrior and 2 x dps works fine, or not. It really depends on your luck every time you pug. Yesterday (or the day before?) I pugged my first T4 run (I run them twice daily with different accounts). We had a chrono, druid, warrior, scourge and me with DD. Looks pretty good, I joined because there was a healer and a chrono. When we reached the end boss at Chaos, I realized that the chrono and the scourge sucked (noticed with scourge at golems already). I went in full dps setup and prepared for melee, warrior did the same. We wiped quickly because we sucked up every stun, every single one. The chrono had no clue that he was supposed to give us stability, and you cannot melee the Gladiator without stability. When he starts casting his pull, he stuns you shortly before, and that makes it impossible to break his bar. The scourge was a complete noob and I don't know how he even made it to T4s. He is probably kicked left and right from groups every day, we kept him because the warrior and I did enough dps to carry. He did 1/6 of my dps, about 10% more than the druid. I never saw a single sand shade and I never had a barrier ^^

Ok, so after the wipe and realizing that this "meta composition" was not working, I simply adjusted. I switched traits and used my pistols, I noticed that the warrior dropped in dps after the wipe, so he adjusted too. Then we grinded him down ranged. Just ranged enough to not get stunned, and moved out of the pull area when he started casting. My dps was about 8k average, same as with staff before when I got stunned all the time. The last 10% was the druid and me and that was it. We just finished the rest of the dailies and I think the whole thing took us 40 minutes.

My second run I did with guild mates. Chrono, healing firebrand, scourge, weaver and me as DD. We just fought the Chaos boss on the same spot, and we never got stunned once. Was a smooth run, and took about 30 minutes. Runs below 30 minutes on average are speed runs where you use the tricks the speed run guilds show in their guides.

Long story short, at the end of the day it always comes down to how good the players are. Just realize that a raid meta composition is no guarantee for speed and success. Our guild run was not raid meta, but even better for fractals. Firebrand is superior to druid in fractals if played well. While I don't think there is an established meta for fractals today, my guess is that it's 1 x healer, 1 x support and 3 x dps, one of them probably warrior. If you play dps and there's a group on LFG that consists of 4 dps, simply don't join, even if they don't specifically ask for a healer. Sometimes I'm in groups with 4 people without healer, and our LFG doesn't ask for one, and then a healer joins. Most people actually take composition into consideration before joining. Those healers see they can be useful for the group and join. Another hint: don't start a group with a mirage. People see only mesmer in the LFG and think you are a chrono. If they join and see you are not a chrono, they might leave again. Even if you get 3 other players, it's likely that you end up without chrono, because the chronos who look at the LFG think there is already a chrono in the group. If you want to play mirage, maybe switch to another dps character for the LFG and when the group is full, back to mirage ^^

Anet could change the LFG window to display the elite instead of the class of course, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Faaris.8013 said:@"Trevor Boyer.6524"Long story short, at the end of the day it always comes down to how good the players are. Just realize that a raid meta composition is no guarantee for speed and success.

Exactly.

The video also shows if anything, that T4 daily clearing on normal modes certainly does not require elite raid meta subgroup compositions and that when it really boils down to it, specialized builds for fractals are just better in every way for PUGing in groups like this. One big difference between raiding and fractals is: You cannot solo content in a raid so if party goes down you all go down because the content is designed to make you rely on each other, thus the reason why raid meta is designed the way that it is. This is not true fractals. In fractals it is an enormous time saver to optimize a build that loses 15% top DPS but has double the sustain factor so it can actually solo things like MAMA on CM as example. Otherwise, during those times when 3 or 4 guys go down, everyone goes down, fight resets and you start from the top again. Sometimes this happens once or twice or more on a boss before the party gets it right and this is just a time sink. If just 1 person runs a self sustaining build that is capable of actually solo'ing something like MAMA during the last 10% of it's health instead of starting over, it saves a lot of time. People get impatient as they lay on the ground and feel like the solo is taking forever but in all reality the person is killing that last 10% in only about 2 minutes. It just feels like 15 minutes because they are getting bored. But wiping and restarting multiple times can turn something like MAMA into a 20 minute or greater shit show.

Another difference between Raids & Fractals is that most Raid groups begin with a semi functional core who are part of a guild together. So even in most PUG groups, most of the players you join with are already rehearsed and trusted players who know the mechanics. In TRUE PUG raid groups, it's a shit show and we all know this. It's something that is a good idea to avoid because it is an enormous time sink of wiping and restarting. Fractal daily PUGing is extremely similar and with people trying to run raid meta subgroups that depend entirely upon the aspect of "everyone staying alive to support each other" it creates that shit show of wiping and restarting in unnecessary areas. They are making things like the champ rabbit/veteran/ettin/shaman a raidishly difficult situation by trying to PUG with raid meta. Honestly man, I don't think I've seen that many people go down at rabbit/veteran/ettin/shaman ever, in all the years I have fractaled, until people started trying to use raid meta. With the old self sustaining fractal meta, the good players just never die and finish the damn fractals with custom builds designed to do so. <- This is something that cannot be done in raids and players need to remember the benefits of taking advantage of this in fractals.

[Eramonster.2718]

Completed a full PuG Nightmare CM with no healer before, avg 2-4 wipes per boss tho. Had someone explaining battle plan after the wipes on strat so I'll assume some could be new. My point is there's numerous ways to do things, but in the end its up the player's decision on how it should be done. Efficiency is always debatable.

Gathering 10 different people, will get you 10 ideals.

[Feanor.2358]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:@Trevor Boyer.6524Long story short, at the end of the day it always comes down to how good the players are. Just realize that a raid meta composition is no

guarantee

for speed and success.

Exactly.

The video also shows if anything, that T4 daily clearing on normal modes certainly does not require elite raid meta subgroup compositions and that when it really boils down to it, specialized builds for fractals are just better in every way for PUGing in groups like this. One big difference between raiding and fractals is:

You cannot solo content in a raid so if party goes down you all go down because the content is designed to make you rely on each other, thus the reason why raid meta is designed the way that it is. This is not true fractals. In fractals it is an enormous time saver to optimize a build that loses 15% top DPS but has double the sustain factor so it can actually solo things like MAMA on CM as example.

Otherwise, during those times when 3 or 4 guys go down, everyone goes down, fight resets and you start from the top again. Sometimes this happens once or twice or more on a boss before the party gets it right and this is just a time sink. If just 1 person runs a self sustaining build that is capable of actually solo'ing something like MAMA during the last 10% of it's health instead of starting over, it saves a lot of time. People get impatient as they lay on the ground and feel like the solo is taking forever but in all reality the person is killing that last 10% in only about 2 minutes. It just feels like 15 minutes because they are getting bored. But wiping and restarting multiple times can turn something like MAMA into a 20 minute or greater kitten show.

Another difference between Raids & Fractals is that most Raid groups begin with a semi functional core who are part of a guild together. So even in most PUG groups, most of the players you join with are already rehearsed and trusted players who know the mechanics. In TRUE PUG raid groups, it's a kitten show and we all know this. It's something that is a good idea to avoid because it is an enormous time sink of wiping and restarting. Fractal daily PUGing is extremely similar and with people trying to run raid meta subgroups that depend entirely upon the aspect of "everyone staying alive to support each other" it creates that kitten show of wiping and restarting in unnecessary areas. They are making things like the champ rabbit/veteran/ettin/shaman a raidishly difficult situation by trying to PUG with raid meta. Honestly man, I don't think I've seen that many people go down at rabbit/veteran/ettin/shaman ever, in all the years I have fractaled, until people started trying to use raid meta. With the old self sustaining fractal meta, the good players just never die and finish the kitten fractals with custom builds designed to do so. <- This is something that cannot be done in raids and players need to remember the benefits of taking advantage of this in fractals.

This video shows, if anything, why I rarely bother joining off-meta T4 parties. Can you do it that way? Sure you can. But I don't want to.

By the way, you can carry raids as well. Cairn was killed solo months ago. The only difference is the time it takes, but it doesn't really make a difference, because you shouldn't do it.

[Faaris.8013]

I have to share this because it's so ironic to this topic. Youtube suggested to check out an old WoodenPotatoes video from when Nightmare cm was discovered and I clicked on it, and stumbled over this comment from one of the players who responded to the video:

I hope they keep adding these 5 man style raid content fractals! Then I can use my necro main in them rather than having to use my druid for all raid style content :p

Sorry Allison, not gonna happen ^^

[Nemezijus.6851]

Two days ago, four of us sat down in one room to play and decided to do t3 daily fractals. my friends were mesmer (fractal level 100), elementalist (100), guardian (53) and me - power daredevil (25, full ascended berserker and meta build). I wanted to see how much harder is t3 with respect to t2 so we went for t3. We get the 5th player - another thief. During the snowblind last boss I got downed twice (thieves are squishy and it was my first time on this level). So there comes the LFG thief with his message to us : " can we kick out the thief" (me), "because he is not doing his rotations and doesn't have proper build?". Just like that the fun is going down, because why enjoy the game when you should just blindly mash predefined rotations and pretend you are having fun. We kicked him out and another guardian appeared and we successfully did snowblind and all the other 4 fractals (incl nightmare) without any wipe.Experiences like this makes me just sad panda. Whatever happened to "lets just have fun" LFG? This smell's like raid LFG attitude leaking into fractals and its absolutely not inviting new players. I wonder how do new chronomancers get "welcomed" when they try to learn their build for fractals or raids?

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:Fascinating thread. It's always amazing how such a question can blow up like an atomic mushroom.

I've been there since BWE1 and ever since the experimenting period after release, little has changed. We had the different dungeon metas (4 warrs + mes, their replacement by eles and so on), we had past fractal metas, now we have chrono+drood+warr+2X. All the time, we've also had enough groups who don't care for their composition and they worked (and work), too.Notice how originally, if you went in to do the content with some non-meta build, or performed worse, the content took just slower. Now, apparently, people want build groups so finetuned that if one person makes a mistake, everyone wipes because supposedly the individual players in that group setup can only function well in a specific group and become useless when one of the elements of that group is faulty.(i have my own opinion on that, but won't going to repeat it one more time here)

Also, what is different is the prevalence of metas. Originally, the casual setup groups made up a huge majority of the instanced content. Now, the meta elitism is much, much stronger and more widespread than it was before.

That's what happens when you fine tune it and start allowing for "roles". If a person has a certain job within the group, people expect that job to be done by that person and not worry about it.Like for example, imagine the Cat Golem in the poison room. The mechanic calls for people to charge the tears and then turn on the fan. In the past people would often run ranged damage and position themselves near each console for that. And you'd expect them to do it. Often when one of those would before charging the consoles or turning on the fan, the group would wipe, because they were too far away from the console, and not focusing on that mechanic because someone else had that job.It's the same when you have a healer, a tank, a dpser, a boon dispenser, whatever. You expect that person to fill that role, so you can focus your rotation, utilities and overall build onto your own specific role. Which means if the healer doesn't heal, the tank doesn't tank, people won't be ready to handle that damage. If the boons or the dpsers aren't up to par, the encounters might drag beyond the ability of the healer to heal or the tank to handle the damage.

This would happen in the past as well, but because it was harder to have specific roles in the past due to the precise nature of how the game worked, it was less common, and you'd only see that in dedicated groups.I mean i always had a high toughness build in my guard to tank every single bit of content. And i'd run stuff like the healing book elite, reflects, and sanctuary.That would allow other players to focus less on surviving, and be able to do other stuff. But that was with like-minded people.Now, due to Elite specs its easier for players to assume a role, and that allows PUGs to be more selective and fine-tuned.

Also, i'd argue that meta is as prevalent now as it was before. The difference is that now, due to DPS meters, the golem, etc. People have better cause to argue that x is more or less effective than y. It doesn't mean that, in EU at least, in the past you wouldn't see 2/5 groups asking for AP, or specific builds/gear. It doesn't mean that speed clears, and cheese mechanics weren't developed to negate all mechanics.Like the Lieutenant in AC. I remember failing so hard at trying that on the first weeks of the game. Now you just stack and LoS him, and burst im down.The same thing happened with the cat golem, you outheal the guy (although yesterday my healer had some issues getting there).After you've done content a couple of times, the novelty starts wearing off, and you just want to do it as fast as you can for the reward, which is why in every game people will find what works, establish a meta and work from there.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

You need 3 things that are really helpfull (2 at least) to have a good fractal T4 experience

1) Healing provided by

• Druid (we all know it)
• Tempest
• RenegadeYes there's not only druid that can heal ... actually ... tempest and renegade heals better but druids provides more things such as might and spirit buffes.

2) Might especially provided by

• Druid (recent "stupid" buff)
• Renegade (press 1 skill to perma 25 stacks with concentration .... low radius)
• Phallanx warrior but got nerfActually almost every class can gain a lot of might if they spec .... but most of the time it's selfish.

3) Quickness (but not really a must have even if it's really helpfull)

• Chronomancer
• Firebrand (can give a lot of aegis and blocks + some sustain and boons)TBH i don't know what other specs can give that much quickness ... if you have something else , be sure to make me notice !

My point is : you don't necessarily need a raid comp, some of other classes performs way more efficiently in a 5 man party than raids ones since it's only 5 ppl.

[Vulf.3098]

Scourge can also give perma 25 stacks of might with some concentration. You used to be able to do it without concentration but abrasive grit is bugged since last patch making it impossible now.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:That's what happens when you fine tune it and start allowing for "roles". If a person has a certain job within the group, people expect that job to be done by that person and not worry about it.Like for example, imagine the Cat Golem in the poison room. The mechanic calls for people to charge the tears and then turn on the fan. In the past people would often run ranged damage and position themselves near each console for that. And you'd expect them to do it. Often when one of those would before charging the consoles or turning on the fan, the group would wipe, because they were too far away from the console, and not focusing on that mechanic because someone else had that job.And that's what i'm talking about. Yes, some people died to that, because they weren't paying attention. If you however were not 100% ignoring that mechanic, then even when one of the shard loaders/fan rotator downed or failed at their job, it was still possible to correct that problem and recover. There was enough time for that. And paying attention didn't cost you even a bit of dps. Quite the opposite, as a dead party obviously does no damage whatsoever.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:That's what happens when you fine tune it and start allowing for "roles". If a person has a certain job within the group, people expect that job to be done by that person and not worry about it.Like for example, imagine the Cat Golem in the poison room. The mechanic calls for people to charge the tears and then turn on the fan. In the past people would often run ranged damage and position themselves near each console for that. And you'd expect them to do it. Often when one of those would before charging the consoles or turning on the fan, the group would wipe, because they were too far away from the console, and not focusing on that mechanic because someone else had that job.And that's what i'm talking about. Yes, some people died to that, because

they weren't paying attention

. If you however were not 100% ignoring that mechanic, then even when one of the shard loaders/fan rotator downed or failed at their job, it was still possible to correct that problem and recover. There

was

enough time for that. And paying attention didn't cost you even a bit of dps. Quite the opposite, as a dead party obviously does no damage whatsoever.

Depends on the group. Not always did you have enough time. IF you had squishy classes like thieves or eles, they'd definitely be dead before getting there on high tiers., which would mean that probably the group would wipe, because people would be stuck ressing 2-3 guys before the next tear, which would just snowball the problem.And that's the thing, if you're "banking" on something going some way, you'll always be ill prepared for it not to happen. Its a consequence of trust, and role distribution.Trust me, i've been there, on those groups, a lot of times. And that's even assuming that one or both the guys not on one of the fixed roles aren't just new guys or people that don't ever pay attention to mechanics and get carried.I can't begin to recall how many times we've wiped there for someone that didn't even move from the golem to ask "what happened", like it wasn't his job to be on the party and help.People are quick to judge and call people elitists, like that's a capital sin, but they forget that there's a reason why people had to start asking for kill proofs, AP, and whatnot. And in case it isn't clear to everyone here, it's not because they are jerks, but because they got tired of having to restart encounters on the back of people not knowing, and not caring to know, what they should be doing on that instance.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:You need 3 things that are really helpfull (2 at least) to have a good fractal T4 experience

1) Healing provided by

• Druid (we all know it)
• Tempest
• RenegadeYes there's not only druid that can heal ... actually ... tempest and renegade heals better but druids provides more things such as might and spirit buffes.

2) Might especially provided by

• Druid (recent "stupid" buff)
• Renegade (press 1 skill to perma 25 stacks with concentration .... low radius)
• Phallanx warrior but got nerfActually almost every class can gain a lot of might if they spec .... but most of the time it's selfish.

3) Quickness (but not really a must have even if it's really helpfull)

• Chronomancer
• Firebrand (can give a lot of aegis and blocks + some sustain and boons)TBH i don't know what other specs can give that much quickness ... if you have something else , be sure to make me notice !

My point is : you don't necessarily need a raid comp, some of other classes performs way more efficiently in a 5 man party than raids ones since it's only 5 ppl.

You forgot Firebrand on the healer list, it can outheal a druid. Also, quickness is helping thieves like alacrity helps weavers. If you have two thieves as dps, they need no alacrity, only quickness and might.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:You need 3 things that are really helpfull (2 at least) to have a good fractal T4 experience

1) Healing provided by

• Druid (we all know it)
• Tempest
• RenegadeYes there's not only druid that can heal ... actually ... tempest and renegade heals better but druids provides more things such as might and spirit buffes.

2) Might especially provided by

• Druid (recent "stupid" buff)
• Renegade (press 1 skill to perma 25 stacks with concentration .... low radius)
• Phallanx warrior but got nerfActually almost every class can gain a lot of might if they spec .... but most of the time it's selfish.

3) Quickness (but not really a must have even if it's really helpfull)

• Chronomancer
• Firebrand (can give a lot of aegis and blocks + some sustain and boons)TBH i don't know what other specs can give that much quickness ... if you have something else , be sure to make me notice !

My point is : you don't necessarily need a raid comp, some of other classes performs way more efficiently in a 5 man party than raids ones since it's only 5 ppl.

You forgot Firebrand on the healer list, it can outheal a druid. Also, quickness is helping thieves like alacrity helps weavers. If you have two thieves as dps, they need no alacrity, only quickness and might.

Where's the frost spirit and glyph of empowerment in Firebrand though?, that's a (non-100% uptime) 20% power damage boost

[Faaris.8013]

@Lunateric.3708 said:Where's the frost spirit and glyph of empowerment in Firebrand though?, that's a (non-100% uptime) 20% power damage boost

How does that make Firebrand less of a potential healer class?

[Vulf.3098]

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:You need 3 things that are really helpfull (2 at least) to have a good fractal T4 experience

1) Healing provided by

• Druid (we all know it)
• Tempest
• RenegadeYes there's not only druid that can heal ... actually ... tempest and renegade heals better but druids provides more things such as might and spirit buffes.

2) Might especially provided by

• Druid (recent "stupid" buff)
• Renegade (press 1 skill to perma 25 stacks with concentration .... low radius)
• Phallanx warrior but got nerfActually almost every class can gain a lot of might if they spec .... but most of the time it's selfish.

3) Quickness (but not really a must have even if it's really helpfull)

• Chronomancer
• Firebrand (can give a lot of aegis and blocks + some sustain and boons)TBH i don't know what other specs can give that much quickness ... if you have something else , be sure to make me notice !

My point is : you don't necessarily need a raid comp, some of other classes performs way more efficiently in a 5 man party than raids ones since it's only 5 ppl.

You forgot Firebrand on the healer list, it can outheal a druid. Also, quickness is helping thieves like alacrity helps weavers. If you have two thieves as dps, they need no alacrity, only quickness and might.

Where's the frost spirit and glyph of empowerment in Firebrand though?, that's a (non-100% uptime) 20% power damage boost

Glyph of empowerment has such a huge inconsistent uptime in raids that people don't even run it anymore on a lot of fights. There are way better utility options.As for using it in fractals it depends on the group comp and skill tbh. If my group was struggling it would not be taken.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:Where's the frost spirit and glyph of empowerment in Firebrand though?, that's a (non-100% uptime) 20% power damage boost

How does that make Firebrand less of a potential healer class?

If another healer brings offensive buffs on top of heals you'll always want that.

@Vulf.3098 [citation needed]

[Linken.6345]

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:Where's the frost spirit and glyph of empowerment in Firebrand though?, that's a (non-100% uptime) 20% power damage boost

How does that make Firebrand less of a potential healer class?

If another healer brings offensive buffs on top of heals you'll always want that.

@Vulf.3098 [citation needed]

Maybe you should read the post Faaris.8013 was quoting hint it was list of all the classes that can heal but was missing guardians heal spec.

[Eramonster.2718]

@"Nemezijus.6851" said:Two days ago, four of us sat down in one room to play and decided to do t3 daily fractals. my friends were mesmer (fractal level 100), elementalist (100), guardian (53) and me - power daredevil (25, full ascended berserker and meta build). I wanted to see how much harder is t3 with respect to t2 so we went for t3. We get the 5th player - another thief. During the snowblind last boss I got downed twice (thieves are squishy and it was my first time on this level). So there comes the LFG thief with his message to us : " can we kick out the thief" (me), "because he is not doing his rotations and doesn't have proper build?". Just like that the fun is going down, because why enjoy the game when you should just blindly mash predefined rotations and pretend you are having fun. We kicked him out and another guardian appeared and we successfully did snowblind and all the other 4 fractals (incl nightmare) without any wipe.Experiences like this makes me just sad panda. Whatever happened to "lets just have fun" LFG? This smell's like raid LFG attitude leaking into fractals and its absolutely not inviting new players. I wonder how do new chronomancers get "welcomed" when they try to learn their build for fractals or raids?

Nothing to do with raid or other game mode imo. Just happened he's the same class and made a comparison based on his standard. A typical case anywhere, like how you judged him, after him judging you.(Not dropping comments since I don't know what actually happened, what caused the dps variation etc) Call it a draw, unfair as both is, he made a judgement based on his oppinion, and so did you made a judgement to raid.

Nevertheless it's unfair to place standard & expectations into a LFG party, mainly because we won't know what class/build is going to join. Unless there's indications for it (exp'd speedrun need x, need ps war for might etc).

[Obtena.7952]

The more that people will push meta builds in their teams, the more they exclude people willing to do the content ... EVEN with builds that are meta. They create their own extinction curve. GL with that.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:Where's the frost spirit and glyph of empowerment in Firebrand though?, that's a (non-100% uptime) 20% power damage boost

How does that make Firebrand less of a potential healer class?

If another healer brings offensive buffs on top of heals you'll always want that.

@Vulf.3098 [citation needed]

Maybe you should read the post Faaris.8013 was quoting hint it was list of all the classes that can heal but was missing guardians heal spec.

I didn't miss a thing, I am just stating why druid will be always favored regardless of how many heal specs we got. Isn't that obvious?

[Taltevus.3289]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Taltevus.3289 said:It would bring me no greater joy than to see fractals go the way of raids and dungeons. Just so ArenaNet would actually do something but they don't.It's a culture in Gw2 that went unchecked...For a very long time. Now players feel entitled to be elitist. But like I said no greater joy.

U are so oblvious to the overall community their stance towards diff things and how that has limited and hurt the game over the years.

I was only being partially serious. But sure....You got me. I've been had, oh no.