The matter on players tapping and contesting towers/keeps

[Kamara.4187]

@Wuffy.9732 said:I get the idea of preventing players from losing towers/keeps by the enemy being sneaky, but its also just as ridiculous that one player being able to smack a gate and contest towers/keeps. Especially if that same 'One' player, is say, a perma dodge/stealth Thief able to run for miles and tap keeps for hours constantly blocking wp. That's just idiotic, a whole tower or keep should not be contested due to One enemy. I'd say to at least raise the limit to 5 players minimum in order to contest keeps, but one person should not be able to cause mayham and put everything on panic mode!

If actual wars were won by just one foot soldier, then I could see the reality in this.

I probably do more defending and babysitting keeps than anything else. I have a thief but I can't say I've played it much beyond book leveling it and fast tracking daredevil and deadeye with scrolls. With that said I don't mind tappers. It gives me something to do to break up the boredom. In fact I get a certain joy out of killing them that I can't explain. Some builds do have way more speed which should be better balanced with the added cloaking, dodge,dodge,dodge that is in game now, but it makes sense that a keep would go on lockdown with a spy in the area, however I feel tapping the same objective over and over should be more difficult each time they attempt it. I'd let a thief or mesmer do it twice with no penalty, but after that...its time for some sort of penalty. Just my 2 cents.

[X T D.6458]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@X T D.6458 said:Tapping keeps and making waypoints unusable is very annoying and frustrating and I wish it would be changed.Why not just make the waypoint usable even when contested? I could agree with that if we remove the Stone Mist waypoint.

People in this thread want to teleport to a keep that is contested by only one player. But they don't want to teleport to a keep that is contested by a zerg. Sounds nonsensical to me.

Blocking a waypont is important even if the keep is not the actual target. It's about slowing down the enemy. If we can't block Stone Mist anymore at nighttime when outnumbered, the waypoint becomes a giant snowball you can't deal with for hours.

The problem with keeping the waypoint usuable, is that it gives too much of an advantage to defenders. Just imagine blobs being able to immediately port in constantly, and just reviving back at the keep wp after dying essentially making it impossible to ever cap anything.

[Wuffy.9732]

@Arlette.9684 said:

@Wuffy.9732 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:No, just NO! I’ve heard a lot of dumb ideas on this forum, this is definitely one of the worse ones. Taking away one of the few roles a non zergling has... SHAME ON YOU, sir! Shame on you!

Every time I read these post, I truly wonder what you people are talking about. You act as if non-zerglings don't have any other roles in wvw. You know how many thieves/ mesmers I've seen run ahead of zergs to pull emergency way point, get into towers unseen, troll camps, stalk and spy on enemy zerg, etc? Those are all actual useful things roamers can do, am I wrong? I'm just saying, there are many more things for roamers to do in wvw than troll or contest waypoints.

Except, we can no longer hide a Mesmer in a keep, because once flipped, and if there are still opponents in, they get marked with a 5 min sentry target buff, or it was like that a week ago when I tried to pull a sneaky on bay after we lost it. Roamers are progressively running out of things to do. People are complaining about camps being flipped to fast by 1 person, you want objectives to not get contested by 1 person, we get tracked by air balloons left and right these days, to the point where you can’t even sneeze around a tower without being targeted for termination.

What’re roamers supposed to do if you guys have it your way?Sit on a cliff and watch fights as they unfold in a Homer-like fashion. This ain’t Troy boys, this is wvw, we want in on the action. Stop punishing us for wanting to go about it differently than the cut and dry zerg fashion of new.

You missunderstand me. Getting into towers unseen, I mean objectives already owned that are contested by enemy zerg. But I see your point, and quite frankly I hate watchtower/sentry buff too. However, this is not about having my way, this is about fixing an out dated broken mechanic/tactic. I'm okay with keeps being contested, just not in this manner.

Some have you guys even suggested better ideas than I did, by tryin to give roamers a chance. The 20sec reveal debuff idea is as good as it gets.

[Crossaber.8934]

there are 4 tiers in wvw, they cannot change a game mechanics just to please tier 1 players, that will give wvw a quick death. Some players enjoy blob fights, some prefer small scale, and the current state of T1~T4 is actually provide different play style to different players, there are server hopper to winning server, there are players that move to lower tier as well.

The tapping tactics is very a nice touch, allowing solo roamer to contribute much more than just flipping camp or scouting, it should not be touched.

[Roxanne.6140]

@"Ubi.4136" said:Nowhere in my post did I state a that the contesting mechanic is not broken. I pointed out what I have seen, and yes, I submit video every time I get it. Most of those people still log in, even when they hack through a wall, than hack into another wall, teleport their friends inside the wall, and build siege inside the wall to knock it down. I did say that some of the items I listed were acceptable means of tapping, because they are playing within the current rule set.That said, there is no reason to maintain the status quo. Several people have suggested making it so that players deal 0 damage, and that contesting a structure requires that siege do damage to the structure...not just placing a build site for guards to hit. That would be the best case scenario given the state of wvw (imo).It works for both attacker and defender. The attacker is able to get siege built and manned before the structure is "under attack". In the case of towers, it then gives them an additional 30 secs before swords pop. The defender would know for certain that a structure is "under attack" because it would require siege doing damage to trigger contested.

Thumbs up. It's a clever and fair idea indeed, very good for a player suggestion. I imagine permanent keep contesting to be more of a problem now given the buff to mobilities.

[Roxanne.6140]

@Roxanne.6140 said:

@"Ubi.4136" said:Nowhere in my post did I state a that the contesting mechanic is not broken. I pointed out what I have seen, and yes, I submit video every time I get it. Most of those people still log in, even when they hack through a wall, than hack into another wall, teleport their friends inside the wall, and build siege inside the wall to knock it down. I did say that some of the items I listed were acceptable means of tapping, because they are playing within the current rule set.That said, there is no reason to maintain the status quo. Several people have suggested making it so that players deal 0 damage, and that contesting a structure requires that siege do damage to the structure...not just placing a build site for guards to hit. That would be the best case scenario given the state of wvw (imo).It works for both attacker and defender. The attacker is able to get siege built and manned before the structure is "under attack". In the case of towers, it then gives them an additional 30 secs before swords pop. The defender would know for certain that a structure is "under attack" because it would require siege doing damage to trigger contested.

Thumbs up. It's a clever and fair idea indeed, very good for a player suggestion. I imagine permanent keep contesting to be more of a problem now given the buff to mobilities.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Wuffy.9732" said:The 20sec reveal debuff idea is as good as it gets.No its not!

Do people not know how contest works? You dont have to kill anything or "fight" the guards. You can literally hit them with a single max range autoattack and then instantly stealth again. Boom contested after 20s or so. The guards would not be able to apply any skill with reveal on a true cheese contester - which is the kind we are talking about, not an all melee warrior or something.

[Baldrick.8967]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Wuffy.9732" said:The 20sec reveal debuff idea is as good as it gets.No its not!

Do people not know how contest works? You dont have to kill anything or "fight" the guards. You can literally hit them with a single max range autoattack and then instantly stealth again. Boom contested after 20s or so. The guards would not be able to apply any skill with reveal on a true cheese contester - which is the kind we are talking about, not an all melee warrior or something.

Same goes for the people suggesting stealth traps- where exactly would you place them to ensure you have it triggered? Even if triggered (and these taggers will deliberately trigger them after contesting just to piss you off) the thief/mesmer/whatever will be long gone before you even jump off the wall.

The whole concept of one person being able to lock down an entire keep by waving sternly at a guard is fundamentally flawed and needs fixing.

There are plenty of other things roamers can do to be useful.

[Offair.2563]

@Trajan.4953 said:

@Klipso.8653 said:They could have tower/keep guards apply the reveal debuff for 20 seconds.

Problem solved

What does that solve, i as ranger can just contest keeps/towers from 1500 range and i dont use stealth anyway.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Offair.2563 said:

@Trajan.4953 said:

@Klipso.8653 said:They could have tower/keep guards apply the reveal debuff for 20 seconds.

Problem solved

What does that solve, i as ranger can just contest keeps/towers from 1500 range and i dont use stealth anyway.

1500? That’s cute try 1725+ Range

[Svarty.8019]

@Wuffy.9732 said:I get the idea of preventing players from losing towers/keeps by the enemy being sneaky, but its also just as ridiculous that one player being able to smack a gate and contest towers/keeps. Especially if that same 'One' player, is say, a perma dodge/stealth Thief able to run for miles and tap keeps for hours constantly blocking wp. That's just idiotic, a whole tower or keep should not be contested due to One enemy. I'd say to at least raise the limit to 5 players minimum in order to contest keeps, but one person should not be able to cause mayham and put everything on panic mode!

If actual wars were won by just one foot soldier, then I could see the reality in this.

People have been saying this forever! Why would they wait so many years and then listen?!

[Seffen.2875]

@mulzi.8273 said:The mechanics of the zone would need to be changed if you remove tapping. Take Hills in alpine. the team that holds that can glide directly to camp and tower. I've seen never ending battles where one side just continoually dies, waypoints to hills, glides in, rinses and repeats. An effective strategy is to tap hills and prevent them from rezzing there and at least have some counterplay of having to navigate through the enemy to get back into the tower.

If tapping was changed, all this would do is indirectly nerf, once again, small groups. Remove tapping, but also remove waypoints (except garrison) for dead people. People have expressed making death more relevant. Make them work to get back to the fight if they were unfortunate to die in it.

This. I do not understand why so many People do not see how strong the waypoint actually is. If you have it, you have a huge Advantage. Therefore it is only fine, if this huge Advantage can be taken so easy.

some prove: Take the waypoint if the garni on the homeborderlands. this one is shortening your way to pretty much anywhere on the map (except the 3 camps) by roughly 1-2 minutes. Especially when heading for bay and hill. If you your bay is attacked you now only Need halft the time to return to bay. This is actually a real big deal. because 2 minutes without defenders can make the difference between take or fail.

also very strong is the hill waypoint, since it enables you to easily control the south east side. it does not even matter which colour you are.

The bay waypoint is better for the offensive side. Makes your way to the North side of the map a lot faster.

The most Impact are the waypoints on the red border and the one in the smc having. On red borders it feels like they cut the Walking time by 5 minutes. Having them in any direction is making traversing the map a huge deal faster.

Same goes for smc. Making the map only half as Long for you.

They way it is right now, is actually quite balanced. Even if a lot of People do not see it this way. if you make contesting harder, this will probably mean that the side with the waypoint will receive a huge buff. This will most probably snowball a matchup further.

Why?

Most Waypoints are build by the stronger Party. So most of the time you are ahead in numbers if you are able to make a waypoint. so if they become stronger, this will make the stronger Party more stronger. But by beeing able to Bypass the waypoint so easy, this actually helps the weaker faction.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:The more I read these responses, the more im leaning to l2p, and this is why:

Its a scouts job to pull a group away from a point so their main group can attack/take it, this is called "strategy"

On the flip side, it's a scouts job to go to important contested points to scout out the threat (if any), this too is called strategy. A good scout can prevent his main group from wasting time running to an objective, thus spend time where it matters. This is why its strategic

If one side's scout is being strategic (and not breaking ToS or hacking but using legit tools) then they are doing their job (despite for how long). If the other side's scout isn't doing their job or doesn't have a scout, then the blame only rests on the other side for not using the proper strategy, thus must apply a new strategy. This is where l2p comes in. Good commanders will make sure they have the proper # of scouts for instances like this. If your commander

or even server doesnt have scouts, or good enough scouts, thats a l2p.

Just a tough about something ur saying on the bold text:

One could say the same if a server does not have enought scourges and firebrands for the blob?It is all about strategie right?A server having lack of certain player roles is not a direct l2p issue.

Thes best scout is have a man on other team ts... nowadays.. unfortunatly almost every server does it.

I see where you are coming from, however its still technically a l2p and here's why:

you are playing, whether as a solo roamer, or as a group. No matter your party status, you must strategize for it (differ settings, different strategies). If a zerg is having issues with a tapper, yet doesn't do anything strategic to prevent it or follow up with it, its a l2p issue for the group as a whole (or commander if led by a tag as they should know).

[Justine.6351]

My idea was to make players vs guards not gives swords and player attacks not damage gates.Instead make disablers deal a minor amount of damage to gates and walls and heavy damage to siege.

[Bangan.5912]

Not an issue. Check it or lose it.

[Bish.8627]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:The more I read these responses, the more im leaning to l2p, and this is why:

Its a scouts job to pull a group away from a point so their main group can attack/take it, this is called "strategy"

On the flip side, it's a scouts job to go to important contested points to scout out the threat (if any), this too is called strategy. A good scout can prevent his main group from wasting time running to an objective, thus spend time where it matters. This is why its strategic

If one side's scout is being strategic (and not breaking ToS or hacking but using legit tools) then they are doing their job (despite for how long). If the other side's scout isn't doing their job or doesn't have a scout, then the blame only rests on the other side for not using the proper strategy, thus must apply a new strategy. This is where l2p comes in. Good commanders will make sure they have the proper # of scouts for instances like this. If your commander

or even server doesnt have scouts, or good enough scouts, thats a l2p.

Just a tough about something ur saying on the bold text:

One could say the same if a server does not have enought scourges and firebrands for the blob?It is all about strategie right?A server having lack of certain player roles is not a direct l2p issue.

Thes best scout is have a man on other team ts... nowadays.. unfortunatly almost every server does it.

I see where you are coming from, however its still technically a l2p and here's why:

you are playing, whether as a solo roamer, or as a group. No matter your party status, you must strategize for it (differ settings, different strategies). If a zerg is having issues with a tapper, yet doesn't do anything strategic to prevent it or follow up with it, its a l2p issue for the group as a whole (or commander if led by a tag as they should know).

I have real issues with the mechanic, but this guys right. Last week we (red keep) had a soulbeast exploiting a texture in the houses to shoot people gliding down, they would die. After they fled from my Holo, I asked in map to call out any roamers contesting. Nothing. A mesmer would tag and warp half way across the map, then me and another guy caught two roamers tagging through terrain, we killed them, and finally, after 2 hours the WP was open again. Once my angry rants were paid attention to in chat we seemed to keep the keep clear.

Remember when you would desperately not want to cause swords on the map? In my opinion, if you don't make that much disruption, you shouldn't contest. 2 guys tagging guards are not a threat.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623, yes in that case ur presenting i feel it is a l2p issue as well, not in a individual but has a server/colective

[aandiarie.7195]

Idk what anet can do about keep tappers. Maybe they can change it to becoming contested if it gets 2% damage, but then again if someone is in a keep is and running around as a mesmer you'd want to know if they were there so they don't cap it. (For people who mesmer into keeps and cap)

[Dawdler.8521]

@Seffen.2875 said:This. I do not understand why so many People do not see how strong the waypoint actually is. If you have it, you have a huge Advantage. Therefore it is only fine, if this huge Advantage can be taken so easy.But it is easy even if only siege/lord damage cause contest.

Just like with the contest mechanic people dont seem to understand, do the same not understand how friggin easy it is to build a basic catapult? Or are they the type that will stand at a half built cata wondering wtf is going on?

Such a change only argue that its far, far too easy for a single player to completely lock down a waypoint without any effort, risk or cost. Even with the change, two people would be able to contest with little effort. And yes, one person could still contest with a little extra work (ie running to a camp and back and hoping nobody saw the half built siege).

Thats what this damn suggestion means.

Not that waypoints suddenly become super OP because no one can contest.

Note that yes, I know that a single person could build an alpha golem and just punch a gate to contest, but really, if people dont know how to solo build and man a catapult an advanced golem will be way above their heads.

[Aeolus.3615]

BTW guys, on hills there is a place to build siege where mobs wont reach but will try to kill the siege or player hididng on that spot ^^, AFK contest.

[Jiminy.8340]

@Nevaahe.6308 said:Not an issue. Check it or lose it.

But...but...then we need to actually use scouts and that means they can't join the mighty blob! Ludicrous I tell you!

[SugarCayne.3098]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Wuffy.9732" said:The 20sec reveal debuff idea is as good as it gets.No its not!

Do people not know how contest works? You dont have to kill anything or "fight" the guards. You can literally hit them with a single max range autoattack and then instantly stealth again. Boom contested after 20s or so. The guards would not be able to apply any skill with reveal on a true cheese contester - which is the kind we are talking about, not an all melee warrior or something.

When are we matched next? I’ll come deliver pizza ;)

[sephiroth.4217]

I love tapping keeps...

I'm only doing it for a fight though, if you chase with 10 people, I'll avoid you guys and circle around for another tap/attempt at a fight... If 1-2 people jump out, I got myself a fight. If no one comes out, I keep tapping till someone does, if people sit on siege and cannons, I keep tapping until they come out. There's also tapping hills and bay and waiting for scouts to come from Garrison.

Sometimes I can tap keeps and only get people on siege or 10 man response crews for an hour or so, I'll stop once I start getting some fights but most people just sit on that cannon and try and shoot me down.

Sometimes fight are so stale in WvW, that if I sit on the bridge up near red keep, I'll have one person trying to use cannon on me, another using treb and another on the Arrowcart, so moving in closer, purposely losing health, agro the guards and tap the keep is still not enough to drag atleast one of those players off siege.

[SweetPotato.7456]

Tapping a keep is a strategy if you can send your pet to tap a keep but in your balanced Gear this problem can be easily avoide, you can go out of the tower/keep to kill this player, if you don't you deserve to run and not use your waypoint.

The REAL problem is not how many players contesting 1 keep. The real problem is WHY is there a perma invisible thief / any profession at all in WvW. This is another case to consider to have Balance Gear - PvP style for WvW.

[Pelto.9364]

What was the problem again? So many posts.

The problem: 1 enemy disabling the waypoint from 70 people too easily.Solution: Make swords but not disable the waypoint.

When to disable the waypoint, I'm not sure. Two enemies can build sieges and hit gates or walls, resupply, and continuing that forever.