The matter on players tapping and contesting towers/keeps

[LetoII.3782]

There's a trick to dealing with keep tappers

! Don't die

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Oh no! People are using valid strategies, must complain to stop valid strategies from being used because they are a slight inconvenience! This is no different than that thread about players using shield gens offensively. Maybe learn counter strats or become better at playing around tapped keeps/towers. It’s not like only one side can employ this strategy, everyone can and most servers use this strategy.

[DemonSeed.3528]

I've seen mesmers and druids excel at this but as annoying at it is - they can still be killed but best is just ignore or tap their stuff back. Better yet, cap all their objectives and you'll see the tapper eventually go away. Even if they stay it would be a pointless endeavor. Remember you're dealing with a special kind of dedicated person, they get joy out of your frustration too. Some of them can be baited into a fight, but don't bring 20 people just to chase them.

[Choppy.4183]

I like the way it is now, but wouldn't care if it required a gate tap again. It allows for more strategic play.

The solution for people who don't want one person to be able to trigger swords is to post a scout or buff the structure with Watchtower (as mentioned).

[Turk.5460]

I don't see a problem. The one person's goal is not to troll, it's to hinder the enemy from being able to respond immediately, and it sounds like they are succeeding. The last thing structures need in this game mode is more defensive potential.

[Wuffy.9732]

Maybe I should have mentioned this is a Tier 1 issue. It seems some of you guys don't ever experience tapping trolls or anything of the sort.

@Turk.5460 said:I don't see a problem. The one person's goal is not to troll, it's to hinder the enemy from being able to respond immediately, and it sounds like they are succeeding. The last thing structures need in this game mode is more defensive potential.

Oh trust me, some players are either trolling or being paid gold to tap keeps.

@Odinens.5920 said:1 player able to tie down the WP on a keep for hours on end is stupid and a bit ridiculous, and if you think otherwise then you must be one of the people doing it.

Tying down a keep to help a commander with a battle is fine. Tying down a keep all day long, for no reason than to make people run farther is just childish......please go back to spawn camping in CoD.

^this guy gets it

@DemonSeed.3528 said:I've seen mesmers and druids excel at this but as annoying at it is - they can still be killed but best is just ignore or tap their stuff back. Better yet, cap all their objectives and you'll see the tapper eventually go away. Even if they stay it would be a pointless endeavor. Remember you're dealing with a special kind of dedicated person, they get joy out of your frustration too. Some of them can be baited into a fight, but don't bring 20 people just to chase them.

Sounds good, doesn't work. I'd seen enemy players who've lost all their objective still consider trolling keeps/towers. They litterally have nothing better to do (Roamer mentality). But again, maybe it's a Tier 1 server issue, so I apologise for not being specific.

@"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:Oh no! People are using valid strategies, must complain to stop valid strategies from being used because they are a slight inconvenience! This is no different than that thread about players using shield gens offensively. Maybe learn counter strats or become better at playing around tapped keeps/towers. It’s not like only one side can employ this strategy, everyone can and most servers use this strategy.

"Valid strategies" my arse. Its a broken mechanic that's being abused, and people like you assume it's natural only because of denial. Or it could be you're just a keep tapper youself, /shrug

@SugarCayne.3098 said:People are forgetting its a useful tool to get the enemy blob to a certain location while your blob attacks another.

I think it'd be foolish to get rid of it.

Just learn who the tappers are and then kill them over and over. They'll move on to easier targets. Stealth traps are your friends. Only takes about four people 15 minutes before you can dissuade a tapper at a keep (to watch all gates). And really, it can be just one person who does it. Mind you, you have to leave your tower to do so -- and you better be skilled enough to kill them.

I slightly agree with you on that. However, that is why we have emergency way points, and the main reason servers need scouts. As I said, i'm not against the idea of contesting objectives, but one person doing it should not be a thing. A damage threshold to gate someone suggested is a good idea. But not this BS door knock and run tactic.

[Cyczer.7834]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Oh no! People are using valid strategies, must complain to stop valid strategies from being used because they are a slight inconvenience! This is no different than that thread about players using shield gens offensively. Maybe learn counter strats or become better at playing around tapped keeps/towers. It’s not like only one side can employ this strategy, everyone can and most servers use this strategy.

I assume u are either from a german server or blackgate.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Cyczer.7834 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Oh no! People are using valid strategies, must complain to stop valid strategies from being used because they are a slight inconvenience! This is no different than that thread about players using shield gens offensively. Maybe learn counter strats or become better at playing around tapped keeps/towers. It’s not like only one side can employ this strategy, everyone can and most servers use this strategy.

I assume u are either from a german server or blackgate.

Neither, lol don’t forget what they say about people that make assumptions.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I have no objection if ANet changed the threshold for locking a waypoint from "any tap tap tapping on my garri door" to actual damage to a gate or wall. All the same, I also don't think there's anything wrong with the status quo. It's always been a valid tactic during a war to disrupt enemy supply lines and it's sometimes ridiculously easy. Further, it's not as if it's difficult to reach keeps in Alpine or EB and in Desert, it's only slightly longer if its garri is tapped.

Besides, given how trivial it is to keep Garri tapped, it's amazing how often invaders don't bother. I lost track of the number of times in T1 I saw a full force at Bay or Hills (from our side or our opponents') and yet the relevant garri WP remained free.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I have been in a linking where an enemy server did this. Was it annoying...sure thing. Was it annoying enough to want to change how often or the stipulations for contesting: Nope.

This is a roamers job is to contest, despite how long its done for. Its also a roamers job to check and keep an eye on these people as well. If you are getting upset over this, one reason could be you don't have many or very knowledgeable roamers (which happens). Try to get better roamers or encourage them to respond to these. Top tier would typically mean lots of zerging, and lots of zerging means its more important to have good roamers to scout things like this as not to waste their zerg's time and effort on a dud so they can focus on important objectives.

But as a roamer myself and Havoc/Calvary runner ... im just giving my 2 cents.

[Bunter.3795]

The only problem I have with the tapping is that it doesn't require any damage any more. A single archer on a wall sees a person at max range and the tower/keep is contested.

Yeah, watchtower helps with this on a tower but a keep has no option for any sort of detection. It should require damage, either to a wall or guard to contest the keep at the bare minimum.

This is especially an issue when it's lowlands in EBG that is being constantly tapped as they can just approach in the water and you can't lay stealth traps in the water.

[Kovu.7560]

@Sovereign.1093 said:contest equals damage by siege only.

There we go. I was wondering if someone else would put fourth the idea I was thinking of.Sorry, but I happen to agree that one person aggroing some guards keeping a waypoint closed is a silly mechanic. I understand some people enjoy doing it, and by all means continue to play with the tools given to you, doesn't change the fact that its completely butt-fuck retarded.

~ Kovu

[Optimator.3589]

What is the point of even having waypoints if a dirty look from an enemy player can make them useless for the next 5 minutes? I agree with the above posters who have suggested requiring the structure to take actual damage before the waypoint closes. Let aggroing the guards still pop swords, but only close the waypoint when there is an actual threat.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:Oh no! People are using valid strategies, must complain to stop valid strategies from being used because they are a slight inconvenience! This is no different than that thread about players using shield gens offensively. Maybe learn counter strats or become better at playing around tapped keeps/towers. It’s not like only one side can employ this strategy, everyone can and most servers use this strategy.

But they aren't just using "valid" game only tools.

In the last month alone, I have seen people tap keeps/towers using:

1. "normal" play
2. flying through the structure
3. tapping it from "under" the structure
4. tapping "normally" but using extra tools to teleport/speed hack away and never be killed
5. the always popular zerg tap

Not all of these are acceptable. This is the reason that something needs to change.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:Oh no! People are using valid strategies, must complain to stop valid strategies from being used because they are a slight inconvenience! This is no different than that thread about players using shield gens offensively. Maybe learn counter strats or become better at playing around tapped keeps/towers. It’s not like only one side can employ this strategy, everyone can and most servers use this strategy.

But they aren't just using "valid" game only tools.

In the last month alone, I have seen people tap keeps/towers using:

1. "normal" play
2. flying through the structure
3. tapping it from "under" the structure
4. tapping "normally" but using extra tools to teleport/speed hack away and never be killed
5. the always popular zerg tap

Not all of these are acceptable. This is the reason that something needs to change.

Hmm most of those seem like Hacks are being used and you should report the hacks and request those hacks to Anet to pressure them to act on or fix it so the hacks don’t work, that’s not an issue of the Contesting mechanic in the least, normal play and Zerg are actual valid game tools.

thanks for highlighting that it’s not the contest mechanic but the Hacks being utilized that are the issue.

[MedievalThings.5417]

Nowhere in my post did I state a that the contesting mechanic is not broken. I pointed out what I have seen, and yes, I submit video every time I get it. Most of those people still log in, even when they hack through a wall, than hack into another wall, teleport their friends inside the wall, and build siege inside the wall to knock it down. I did say that some of the items I listed were acceptable means of tapping, because they are playing within the current rule set.That said, there is no reason to maintain the status quo. Several people have suggested making it so that players deal 0 damage, and that contesting a structure requires that siege do damage to the structure...not just placing a build site for guards to hit. That would be the best case scenario given the state of wvw (imo).It works for both attacker and defender. The attacker is able to get siege built and manned before the structure is "under attack". In the case of towers, it then gives them an additional 30 secs before swords pop. The defender would know for certain that a structure is "under attack" because it would require siege doing damage to trigger contested.

[X T D.6458]

@Sovereign.1093 said:make gates immune to normal attack like walls. and contest equals damage by siege only.

no more tapping problem and you know it's really enemies sieging by having siege hit the structure.

also, guards and archers dont spawn until sieges do damage. and once the keep or tower is contested, continue what worked as before.

And what if 5 enemies are already inside and attacking the Lord...

[Kovu.7560]

@X T D.6458 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:make gates immune to normal attack like walls. and contest equals damage by siege only.

no more tapping problem and you know it's really enemies sieging by having siege hit the structure.

also, guards and archers dont spawn until sieges do damage. and once the keep or tower is contested, continue what worked as before.

And what if 5 enemies are already inside and attacking the Lord...

If you haven't noticed a place is under attack until they're on lord, that's on you. If they hide a mesmer inside, that's on you.But if you want to make the lord an exception to the rule I guess that'd be okay.

Inb4 ranger/elementalist lord-tapping meta.

~ Kovu

[X T D.6458]

@Kovu.7560 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:make gates immune to normal attack like walls. and contest equals damage by siege only.

no more tapping problem and you know it's really enemies sieging by having siege hit the structure.

also, guards and archers dont spawn until sieges do damage. and once the keep or tower is contested, continue what worked as before.

And what if 5 enemies are already inside and attacking the Lord...

If you haven't noticed a place is under attack until they're on lord, that's on you. If they hide a mesmer inside, that's on you.But if you want to make the lord an exception to the rule I guess that'd be okay.

Inb4 ranger/elementalist lord-tapping meta.

~ Kovu

Tapping keeps and making waypoints unusable is very annoying and frustrating and I wish it would be changed. But it also serves an important function to help with scouting. Removing one part of that mechanic, in this case hitting guards and making it based only on siege damage would only hurt defenders and especially when outnumbered and unable to have people actually standing in a keep scouting it.

Many times, scouts are mobile, they are doing other stuff on the map and they look around for swords to see if anything is contested to check it out. It is very easy to miss something especially if you take out the Guard mechanic.

[bq pd.2148]

@X T D.6458 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:make gates immune to normal attack like walls. and contest equals damage by siege only.

no more tapping problem and you know it's really enemies sieging by having siege hit the structure.

also, guards and archers dont spawn until sieges do damage. and once the keep or tower is contested, continue what worked as before.

And what if 5 enemies are already inside and attacking the Lord...

If you haven't noticed a place is under attack until they're on lord, that's on you. If they hide a mesmer inside, that's on you.But if you want to make the lord an exception to the rule I guess that'd be okay.

Inb4 ranger/elementalist lord-tapping meta.

~ Kovu

Tapping keeps and making waypoints unusable is very annoying and frustrating and I wish it would be changed. But it also serves an important function to help with scouting. Removing one part of that mechanic, in this case hitting guards and making it based only on siege damage would only hurt defenders and especially when outnumbered and unable to have people actually standing in a keep scouting it.

Many times, scouts are mobile, they are doing other stuff on the map and they look around for swords to see if anything is contested to check it out. It is very easy to miss something especially if you take out the Guard mechanic.

to compensate they could bring back swords for less people infight then 25, lets say starting from five and maybe change colors depending on how many people are infight. problem then is, havoc groups will complain about no longer being able to easy ppt and being sneaky..( tho they would if done correct only be seen at lord or not at all)what ever is changed about automated scouting systems like tapping keeps will allways affect more then the issue at hand.

[Sovereign.1093]

@X T D.6458 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:make gates immune to normal attack like walls. and contest equals damage by siege only.

no more tapping problem and you know it's really enemies sieging by having siege hit the structure.

also, guards and archers dont spawn until sieges do damage. and once the keep or tower is contested, continue what worked as before.

And what if 5 enemies are already inside and attacking the Lord...

if inside inner, contested. same as normal.

[Kovu.7560]

@X T D.6458 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:make gates immune to normal attack like walls. and contest equals damage by siege only.

no more tapping problem and you know it's really enemies sieging by having siege hit the structure.

also, guards and archers dont spawn until sieges do damage. and once the keep or tower is contested, continue what worked as before.

And what if 5 enemies are already inside and attacking the Lord...

If you haven't noticed a place is under attack until they're on lord, that's on you. If they hide a mesmer inside, that's on you.But if you want to make the lord an exception to the rule I guess that'd be okay.

Inb4 ranger/elementalist lord-tapping meta.

~ Kovu

Tapping keeps and making waypoints unusable is very annoying and frustrating and I wish it would be changed. But it also serves an important function to help with scouting. Removing one part of that mechanic, in this case hitting guards and making it based only on siege damage would only hurt defenders and especially when outnumbered and unable to have people actually standing in a keep scouting it.

Many times, scouts are mobile, they are doing other stuff on the map and they look around for swords to see if anything is contested to check it out. It is very easy to miss something especially if you take out the Guard mechanic.

As a part-time scout I would honestly prefer to have fewer white swords on the map to have to bounce around between. At least I would know if something had white swords it meant it was legitimately under attack in some way -- and not just some pve'er who popped the guards for a daily.

~ Kovu

[Baldrick.8967]

Maybe the solution is to have it contested for less time if it's just a guard being waved at or one enemy tapping the door- say 30 seconds. Full duration reserved for actual damage to gates or walls by siege or hitting on the lord.

Roaming tappers would still be able to keep a WP contested but they'd have to work at it.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

I've always been a proponent of this as well. No way should a single player hitting a guard once cause something to be contested. There needs to be "X" amount of damage done to a wall or gate before it's contested. Like 1/4 of it's health needs to be drained in a single siege attempt, otherwise it remains normal. That way at least if you see white swords anywhere on the map you know your tower or keep is under actual attack.

[Burnfall.9573]

Since Gw2 beta; we've begged Anet to fix this bad design feature in wvw; they ignored us. 6 years later; they continue to do so.

Reality is; Our concerns for the health of wvw is meaningless to Anet.

Accept it