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The matter on players tapping and contesting towers/keeps

Wuffy.9732

By Wuffy.9732
in World vs. World

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morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

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@"Krypto.2069" said:I agree - one player tapping a keep for literally HOURS ON END is ridiculous, and this happens too often imo. I'd like to see the minimum damage a structure must take in order to be "tapped" be significantly raised. One hit from one player every 3 minutes is non-sense.

Absolutely but this has been suggested for years now. Anet doesn't listen.

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Jiminy.8340

Jiminy.8340

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@Choppy.4183 said:

@Jiminy.8340 said:Easier solution would be to get rid of objective contesting and swords altogether.

You now get your waypoints open all the time and roamers get to sneak up and take objectives.

They tried that and it was a disaster. Seriously cut into the fights... it was a ktrainer's dream.I know that is what is used to be like - hence my comments about going back to it.People need to stop asking for everything to be about 'fights'. There is a completely different gamemode for that. WvW is objectives based and locking down WPs is part of that.

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Silinsar.6298

Silinsar.6298

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I'm both for keeping contesting and making it more difficult. After all it is a valid tactic that adds another layer of interaction to the mode but the counter play is too hard at the moment.

So I'd add the "no siege damage = no contest" rule but at the same time add a trick (similar to supply removal trap) that fakes a siege attack on a gate. Then contesting would cost 10 supply and you'd have to stand next to the gate for a few seconds (cast time of maybe 2-3 sec). It could even remove stealth on starting the cast.

This way it would still be possible for roamers to tag a keep in critical situations, but it would require more time investment (running back and forth to get supply) to do it over a longer period. Also defenders could realistically stop the tagging.

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Wuffy.9732

Wuffy.9732

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@Arlette.9684 said:No, just NO! I’ve heard a lot of dumb ideas on this forum, this is definitely one of the worse ones. Taking away one of the few roles a non zergling has... SHAME ON YOU, sir! Shame on you!

Every time I read these post, I truly wonder what you people are talking about. You act as if non-zerglings don't have any other roles in wvw. You know how many thieves/ mesmers I've seen run ahead of zergs to pull emergency way point, get into towers unseen, troll camps, stalk and spy on enemy zerg, etc? Those are all actual useful things roamers can do, am I wrong? I'm just saying, there are many more things for roamers to do in wvw than troll or contest waypoints.

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SugarCayne.3098

SugarCayne.3098

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@Wuffy.9732 said:

@SugarCayne.3098 said:People are forgetting its a useful tool to get the enemy blob to a certain location while your blob attacks another.

I think it'd be foolish to get rid of it.

Just learn who the tappers are and then kill them over and over. They'll move on to easier targets. Stealth traps are your friends. Only takes about four people 15 minutes before you can dissuade a tapper at a keep (to watch all gates). And really, it can be just one person who does it. Mind you, you have to leave your tower to do so -- and you better be skilled enough to kill them.

I slightly agree with you on that. However, that is why we have emergency way points, and the main reason servers need scouts. As I said, i'm not against the idea of contesting objectives, but one person doing it should not be a thing. A damage threshold to gate someone suggested is a good idea. But not this BS door knock and run tactic.

If it's one guy, surely you can take him?Stealth trap. Guard aggro as a result, which helps you to kill them off.Honestly I use this tactic a lot to help my blob push objectives on a map.And yes, it's just me.But I won't stay for hours, and if they kill me 4-5 times in a row, I move on to other objectives.

My point is, if it's only one guy, you have the tools to get rid of him.

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Wuffy.9732

Wuffy.9732

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@SugarCayne.3098 said:

@SugarCayne.3098 said:People are forgetting its a useful tool to get the enemy blob to a certain location while your blob attacks another.

I think it'd be foolish to get rid of it.

Just learn who the tappers are and then kill them over and over. They'll move on to easier targets. Stealth traps are your friends. Only takes about four people 15 minutes before you can dissuade a tapper at a keep (to watch all gates). And really, it can be just one person who does it. Mind you, you have to leave your tower to do so -- and you better be skilled enough to kill them.

I slightly agree with you on that. However, that is why we have emergency way points, and the main reason servers need scouts. As I said, i'm not against the idea of contesting objectives, but one person doing it should not be a thing. A damage threshold to gate someone suggested is a good idea. But not this BS door knock and run tactic.

If it's one guy, surely you can take him?Stealth trap. Guard aggro as a result, which helps you to kill them off.Honestly I use this tactic a lot to help my blob push objectives on a map.And yes, it's just me.But I won't stay for hours, and if they kill me 4-5 times in a row, I move on to other objectives.

My point is, if it's only one guy, you have the tools to get rid of him.

That wont work if its perma dodge, shadowstep thief. And not everyone is in the mood to chase a guy who's only interest is playing door tap for hours. Then again, I'm just one person, and can't speak on behalf of everyone.

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KrHome.1920

KrHome.1920

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@X T D.6458 said:Tapping keeps and making waypoints unusable is very annoying and frustrating and I wish it would be changed.Why not just make the waypoint usable even when contested? I could agree with that if we remove the Stone Mist waypoint.

People in this thread want to teleport to a keep that is contested by only one player. But they don't want to teleport to a keep that is contested by a zerg. Sounds nonsensical to me.

Blocking a waypont is important even if the keep is not the actual target. It's about slowing down the enemy. If we can't block Stone Mist anymore at nighttime when outnumbered, the waypoint becomes a giant snowball you can't deal with for hours.

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Wuffy.9732

Wuffy.9732

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@X T D.6458 said:Tapping keeps and making waypoints unusable is very annoying and frustrating and I wish it would be changed.Why not just make the waypoint usable even when contested? I could agree with that if we remove the Stone Mist waypoint.

People in this thread want to teleport to a keep that is contested by only one player. But they don't want to teleport to a keep that is contested by a zerg. Sounds nonsensical to me.

Blocking a waypont is important even if the keep is not the actual target. It's about slowing down the enemy. If we can't block Stone Mist anymore at nighttime when outnumbered, the waypoint becomes a giant snowball you can't deal with for hours.

Listen to how this sounds. You own a castle, and must protect your king. One guy comes up to your castle, and kicks your wall, suddenly all hell breaks lose, and everyone is panicking and worried about loosing their castle, and their king. Then you lock your gates so no one leaves or enters. You look outside the castle walls and see it's just one guy, do you continue to panic for 2+mins and keep gates locked, or do you whip out your long bow and waste a fool?

Even worse, this same guy might have on his Nike's brand shoes, and dodges all your shots, manages to get away scott free. But then he comes back later, and repeats the same process every couple of minutes. Would you want to be panicking over just one guy every couple of minutes?

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BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

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@Wuffy.9732 said:

@SugarCayne.3098 said:People are forgetting its a useful tool to get the enemy blob to a certain location while your blob attacks another.

I think it'd be foolish to get rid of it.

Just learn who the tappers are and then kill them over and over. They'll move on to easier targets. Stealth traps are your friends. Only takes about four people 15 minutes before you can dissuade a tapper at a keep (to watch all gates). And really, it can be just one person who does it. Mind you, you have to leave your tower to do so -- and you better be skilled enough to kill them.

I slightly agree with you on that. However, that is why we have emergency way points, and the main reason servers need scouts. As I said, i'm not against the idea of contesting objectives, but one person doing it should not be a thing. A damage threshold to gate someone suggested is a good idea. But not this BS door knock and run tactic.

If it's one guy, surely you can take him?Stealth trap. Guard aggro as a result, which helps you to kill them off.Honestly I use this tactic a lot to help my blob push objectives on a map.And yes, it's just me.But I won't stay for hours, and if they kill me 4-5 times in a row, I move on to other objectives.

My point is, if it's only one guy, you have the tools to get rid of him.

That wont work if its perma dodge, shadowstep thief. And not everyone is in the mood to chase a guy who's only interest is playing door tap for hours. Then again, I'm just one person, and can't speak on behalf of everyone.

Funny thing you keep complaining about Perma Dodge Thief but Anet nerfed Perma Dodge Thief so that it doesn’t exist anymore FYI, it happened a few months ago, then they racked on another debuff to Thief Dodges that was used in that Permandodge Build. Sounds like l2p issue on that one. Maybe leave your castle and fight them.

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Wuffy.9732

Wuffy.9732

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Funny thing you keep complaining about Perma Dodge Thief but Anet nerfed Perma Dodge Thief so that it doesn’t exist anymore FYI, it happened a few months ago, then they racked on another debuff to Thief Dodges that was used in that Permandodge Build. Sounds like l2p issue on that one. Maybe leave your castle and fight them.

Perhaps youre right on that. I main necro though, so chasing thieves is impossible as it is running in general :/.

@Klipso.8653 said:They could have tower/keep guards apply the reveal debuff for 20 seconds.

Lol my man Balwarc, you're a genius!

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BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

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@Wuffy.9732 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Funny thing you keep complaining about Perma Dodge Thief but Anet nerfed Perma Dodge Thief so that it doesn’t exist anymore FYI, it happened a few months ago, then they racked on another debuff to Thief Dodges that was used in that Permandodge Build. Sounds like l2p issue on that one. Maybe leave your castle and fight them.

Perhaps youre right on that. I main necro though, so chasing thieves is impossible as it is running in general :/.

@Klipso.8653 said:They could have tower/keep guards apply the reveal debuff for 20 seconds.

Lol my man Balwarc, you're a genius!

The nerfs were the ones that Pvp had for close to a year before Anet decided to put them in WvW, they were really good nerfs to apply I don’t know why they didn’t apply them sooner but that’s what I think about quite a few of the nerfs across all classes in PvP.

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Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

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@Jiminy.8340 said:

@Jiminy.8340 said:Easier solution would be to get rid of objective contesting and swords altogether.

You now get your waypoints open all the time and roamers get to sneak up and take objectives.

They tried that and it was a disaster. Seriously cut into the fights... it was a ktrainer's dream.I know that is what is used to be like - hence my comments about going back to it.People need to stop asking for everything to be about 'fights'. There is a completely different gamemode for that. WvW is objectives based and locking down WPs is part of that.

You misunderstand. I mean, it turned wvw into player vs door because defense was hugely impacted. You would know what was being attacked when it flipped, then you would do the same too your opponents.

So I'm not even making a fights vs ticks point, I'm saying wvw turned into pve.

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Bigpapasmurf.5623

Bigpapasmurf.5623

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The more I read these responses, the more im leaning to l2p, and this is why:

Its a scouts job to pull a group away from a point so their main group can attack/take it, this is called "strategy"

On the flip side, it's a scouts job to go to important contested points to scout out the threat (if any), this too is called strategy. A good scout can prevent his main group from wasting time running to an objective, thus spend time where it matters. This is why its strategic

If one side's scout is being strategic (and not breaking ToS or hacking but using legit tools) then they are doing their job (despite for how long). If the other side's scout isn't doing their job or doesn't have a scout, then the blame only rests on the other side for not using the proper strategy, thus must apply a new strategy. This is where l2p comes in. Good commanders will make sure they have the proper # of scouts for instances like this. If your commander or even server doesnt have scouts, or good enough scouts, thats a l2p.

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Arlette.9684

Arlette.9684

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@Wuffy.9732 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:No, just NO! I’ve heard a lot of dumb ideas on this forum, this is definitely one of the worse ones. Taking away one of the few roles a non zergling has... SHAME ON YOU, sir! Shame on you!

Every time I read these post, I truly wonder what you people are talking about. You act as if non-zerglings don't have any other roles in wvw. You know how many thieves/ mesmers I've seen run ahead of zergs to pull emergency way point, get into towers unseen, troll camps, stalk and spy on enemy zerg, etc? Those are all actual useful things roamers can do, am I wrong? I'm just saying, there are many more things for roamers to do in wvw than troll or contest waypoints.

Except, we can no longer hide a Mesmer in a keep, because once flipped, and if there are still opponents in, they get marked with a 5 min sentry target buff, or it was like that a week ago when I tried to pull a sneaky on bay after we lost it. Roamers are progressively running out of things to do. People are complaining about camps being flipped to fast by 1 person, you want objectives to not get contested by 1 person, we get tracked by air balloons left and right these days, to the point where you can’t even sneeze around a tower without being targeted for termination.

What’re roamers supposed to do if you guys have it your way?Sit on a cliff and watch fights as they unfold in a Homer-like fashion. This ain’t Troy boys, this is wvw, we want in on the action. Stop punishing us for wanting to go about it differently than the cut and dry zerg fashion of new.

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DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

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@Klipso.8653 said:They could have tower/keep guards apply the reveal debuff for 20 seconds.

Not viable. This means a thief wouldn't be able to fight in general in a legitimate siege when hit by tower/keep guards.

Of all the suggestions, I like it being based on dealing a certain amount of damage to keep structures in a short time frame. It needs to be very small - only a few hundred - as tapping keeps is actually really important for fights to be won or lost, as otherwise it's just spam res and it takes way longer to win/lose, however the hyper-mobile, full-tank non-damage troll builds that are played solely to tap keeps and not die are stupid and anti-fun.

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Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

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@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:The more I read these responses, the more im leaning to l2p, and this is why:

Its a scouts job to pull a group away from a point so their main group can attack/take it, this is called "strategy"

On the flip side, it's a scouts job to go to important contested points to scout out the threat (if any), this too is called strategy. A good scout can prevent his main group from wasting time running to an objective, thus spend time where it matters. This is why its strategic

If one side's scout is being strategic (and not breaking ToS or hacking but using legit tools) then they are doing their job (despite for how long). If the other side's scout isn't doing their job or doesn't have a scout, then the blame only rests on the other side for not using the proper strategy, thus must apply a new strategy. This is where l2p comes in. Good commanders will make sure they have the proper # of scouts for instances like this. If your commander or even server doesnt have scouts, or good enough scouts, thats a l2p.

Just a tough about something ur saying on the bold text:

One could say the same if a server does not have enought scourges and firebrands for the blob?It is all about strategie right?A server having lack of certain player roles is not a direct l2p issue.

Thes best scout is have a man on other team ts... nowadays.. unfortunatly almost every server does it.

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