Discussion about Confusion [merged]

[BrokenGlass.9356]

The changes to the confusion condition seem backwards compared to what the PvP community wanted changed.

The changes completely gut clone mirage.

Would you like the development team to release a statement of intent, so we can understand the 'why' behind the confusion changes?

[Ojimaru.8970]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:The question is: exactly how strong is the activated ability?And will that activation be worth the investment.

History of confusion says no.

Having done some quick tests, condition DoTs will tick for 700s, and spike up to 7,000 on skill use. However, much like the early days, it'll be totally worthless in PVE.

[Walhalla.5473]

If this was intended in PvE then absolutely. The last change to Confusion had the intent to make this condition useful in PvE and I think the Mirage itself was build with the useful confusion in mind. I mean this was a condition that was completely useless on mobs, but dangerous to us players if those mobs used it and there was no reason to use it in PvE. This change here now? No idea for PvE.

If this was an oversight then well, shit happens and get it fixed, no statement needed there.

If this was intentional then we should get a statement. I can't imagine was Anet was thinking about this change if this wasn't accidential and it would be then nice to know why the change happened, even if I completely disagree with this as a PvEler

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

Less DPS, more Damage on skill use

Mobs in PvE don't use a lot of skills at all, so that part of confusion damage is negligible. Also, that change applying also to PvE confirmed. Clone mirage is effectively dead as a result.

They also do not move much, and a mesmer's second main source of condition damage is torment. They can also deal bleeding and burning, but not nearly as much.

It always bothered me how NPCs have such limited behaviors. Using skills every 2 seconds, not using skills on the move, never jumping over obstacles...

At the very least we should have a player-like NPC behavior for PvP AI, to fill gaps in custom arenas, and take over players if they go AFK or leave the match in unranked.

[Kururu.8140]

I can't wrap my head around why Anet nerfed confusion so much in PvE. In PvP/WvW fair enough but why PvE? Mobs don't use skills often enough in PvE to make any use of the whole damage-on-skill-use thing. It's in a completely different boat regarding that than in PvP/WvW where you're against other players who are using skills all the time in fights. It's very odd decision and I'd love to hear their reasoning behind it. I'm sure good builds will surface after this patch and people will adapt and all but I don't see condi mirage ever being viable in anything until something changes. I'm not here to join the riots though, just dropping a genuine question.

[zealex.9410]

The change is good. The previous way confusion worked made the condition overpowered and was complitely ignoring its flavour.

[zealex.9410]

@ThomasC.1056 said:Confusion has been severly gutted in all game modes, and condi mesmer, whose confusion was the main source of damage, will be a huge hassle to play now.

I can understand the removal of the DoT part of confusion, eventhough, as @"Astralporing.1957" said, it was the most significant part of damage in PvE where foes don't use skills as often. That's not what bothers me most.

The thing is : we got some times ago a "massive conditions overhaul", where we were explained that conditions were supposed to be damage over time, ramping damage, shouldn't be bursty etc. And now, confusions gets nerfed in its DoT aspect and all the conditions duration have been severly reduced.

The condition changes are going against the idea of DoT, against the idea of ramping damage (because short durations), which will result in an overall more bursty behaviour. It goes in the exact opposite way of the last conditions overhaul.

Now, I'm not saying condi mesmer was perfect, and there has been lots of complains for a reason, but... Isn't that an issue with consistency ?

Confusion was supposed to be bursty hence the shorter cd but more quantity of stacks.

[zealex.9410]

I want to believe that this is an oversight and anet will adress it. Pvp wvw wise this is how confusion should be.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

Less DPS, more Damage on skill use

Mobs in PvE don't use a lot of skills at all, so that part of confusion damage is negligible. Also, that change applying also to PvE confirmed. Clone mirage is effectively dead as a result.

But, remember folks, devs only balance for PvE! As if!

[AliamRationem.5172]

@zealex.9410 said:I want to believe that this is an oversight and anet will adress it. Pvp wvw wise this is how confusion should be.

I would tend to agree. Hopefully we can get some clarification from ANet.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@zealex.9410 said:The change is good. The previous way confusion worked made the condition overpowered and was complitely ignoring its flavour.

I totally agree that the pervious version ignored the flavor. I did like the condi at launch... But it was amazingly underpowered.

Are you bothered by the ticking damage being unaffected by the condition damage stat?

[Blaeys.3102]

Yet another example of why they need to balance PvP and PVE completely separately.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

"Bursty" can be a good thing. But if the condition does damage so poor that you can ignore it and wait out the duration... Then the newly buffed activated portion will rarely happen.

[MedievalThings.5417]

Here is what was happening in wvw:

1. See Mirage coming, see the condition damage buffs.
2. Mirage stealths, time it perfect, dodge, and dodge.
3. Oh look, despite chaining 2 perfect dodges I have 16 stacks of confusion. The Mirage has yet to target me or "hit" me with anything.
4. Choice - die while using a heal skill which will insta-kill me, or die standing there when the Mirage attacks - if the ticks don't kill me first.
5. OK, I was smart and had my cleanse handy - oh look, I still have 12 stacks of confusion, and no cleanse or dodges. Mirage still attacking.

That is why it was nerfed. And yes, I am a mesmer.

[Ze Dos Cavalos.6132]

Its like the balance team is just a bunch of people they gather at the last minute and just change random things :bleep_bloop:

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:Confusion was supposed to be bursty hence the shorter cd but more quantity of stacks.First, last we heard conditions were supposed to be a slow ramp up longterm sustain types of damage, and burst was supposed to be power's domain. Second, there is no burst if there's no damage. And there's no damage if there's nothing to trigger it.

Just for an extreme case, please do consider confusion damage on Mursaat Overseer now.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

Several people have questions or input on Confusion. This merged thread will allow the devs to see your thoughts in one consolidated place. So please share your input, if you have not done so, in this thread.

[Trakarg.2095]

My thoughts?

You ruined confusion for PvE. Confusion was very similar to this when the game launched, and the condition was found to be SO USELESS in a PvE setting that, years ago, you changed it to what it was before this most recent patch.

And now you went back on that. After... how long, exactly? Just because PvPers were whining, and you couldn't be bothered to do the sensible thing and split the condition's balance in each mode?

You know what? I was interested in these mesmer changes. I still like the actual mesmer changes. But when it comes to playing my mesmer, I really enjoyed the clone mirage build with axe. I've been playing the game a lot lately because I wanted to farm enough to get Astralaria.

Well guess what? Ya'll made mesmer axe a steaming pile with these confusion changes. You ruined the condition, and you ruined my favorite mesmer build and the only character I've really enjoyed enough to try and craft a gen 2 legendary for.

Thanks.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

I'm not even sure if things are ruined.

Maybe axe is even still good. (even though I find myself lamenting the time I spent on Veilrender now.)

But a statement of intent is required for us to understand what makes it good.

I remember pre patch there was a statement about 'some confusion changes we're really excited about'.

And now we have a small block of text, poorly described, along with a MIND BLOWING number of changes to try and understand at the same time.

You took the time to talk about Alacrity (pun intended)... But not about confusion?

This change is at least as major the alacrity or phantasm changes. Which, you saw fit to explain. No offense, but did Robert Gee only turn in two of three essays by the deadline?

Is this some META joke? To leave us confused about confusion?

I cannot stress enough, that the WHY is what's needed. I'm not even asking for changes. I'll go main another class if I don't like it. I want to know WHY you changed the condition responsible for 68% of my main character's condition damage.... Into a DoT effect being called a condition.

Why the REMOVAL instead of REDUCTION of the condi damage scaling?

Are we supposed to be rewarded for gearing up? Or not?

Are there even other damaging things in the game unaffected by stats?

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:Several people have questions or input on Confusion. This merged thread will allow the devs to see your thoughts in one consolidated place. So please share your input, if you have not done so, in this thread.

@Gaile Gray.6029Gaile, while I appreciate your merging my threads, the poll really was more important than the discussion.

I don't want 10 pages of 'you gutted my class', 'I hate this', 'no it's fine the way it is!' 'obviously you don't play wvw....'.... Blah, blah, blah....

I wanted to get arena net's attention, hopefully with a poll, to show weight of numbers.... So that you guys might explain a few things.

Maybe bring this thread up in the meeting tomorrow morning?

Notice how many people came to your defense about the phantasm and alacrity changes? Might have been your well thought out explanation...

[funbuket.1378]

Hey there,

Having not being able to test anything yet I'm reluctant to comment on the recent changes too confusion. However from what I have read in the patch notes Im a little concerned for my Mesmer's damage in PVE.

I generally only play PVE content and the majority of my damage comes from Confusion stacking. Mobs don't use abilities enough to warrant the damage load-out being on skill use rather than over time. A suggestion that was floating around on these forums a while back which I thought would have been a great fix for Confusion was to have all confusion stacks be consumed on skill use.

Otherwise in PVE Confusion was working fine, this was a great change from a PVP perspective but could we please have the old confusion back for PVE Mesmers?

[dontlook.1823]

I am a bit confused. :s I was excited to have a high-performing Power and Condi build. It looks like you guys did really well with Power Chrono. But Condi mirage is a little bit lacking from what I'm gathering. Some are saying its fine with Axe/torch Staff. But just not quite near what it used to be. Albeit, I'm happy there are two weapons for the Mirage build. I do wish it retained its shininess. Mirage wasn't really over-performing in PvE at all compared to PvP considering its DPS choices. Power wasn't strong enough and condi was very situational.

Cactus juice from the Chouy? Make this Mirage strong once again!

[shippage.1983]

Mirage got nerfed too hard, it was good but not that good. Getting rid of the ticking damage on Confusion almost halves the damage already, then you nerf the damage on top of that still. I never thought Confusion was the problem, but that it applied too many stacks. It was pretty good in PvE before too, yet this destroys it there too.

I don't see any Mirages in PvP anymore, only Chronos. I do like the Chrono changes, however. Holosmith was about equally as good as Mirage, yet it barely got touched in the patch.

Please buff Confusion.

[AZSolii.9451]

I'm echoing the sentiments here for Confusion's nerf in PvE. It is nonsensical and literally does nothing. You know what it does? Makes mesmers move to other builds which don't use confusion or condi. Explicitly.

This is the equivalent of looking at Scepter and Axe and going "Yeah, put them in the garbage." And since mesmer is the only profession which relies on confusion as a main damage dealing condition (torment, bleed, etc are secondary to it), it only hits them.

But there's another element I want to push on this, and I feel it's important to really stress:

I was actually having fun playing a shatter mesmer. After five years of waiting--three of them having mesmer be a joke in PvE, and two being a buff bot. I thought finally I could play the character I first rolled and wanted to play and enjoy myself. This change effectively ruins the game for me. Not just because it breaks the profession I enjoy, but also because it makes me wary to even play anything else on this game.

What this means: If this is all it takes for one profession to be gutted, then everything else is fair game.

For me, that's a game-breaker. If I can't play what I want without being in constant concern as to whether or not one day it'll be awesome and the next terrible, then GW2 is being shelved.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

If we assume that 30k DPS is "viable", and 35k DPS is ideal, then there's no way that condi mirage could come even close to ideal in PVE now. The axe + pistol/torch build only does 24k DPS while sustaining an average of 30 stacks of confusion. In order to be viable, an enemy would have to attack once every 1.5 seconds for the manual confusion ticks to compensate. To be ideal, an enemy would have to attack 1.5 times every second.

This is not good. The condition doesn't work in PVE anymore. Please fix it.