Loot Box legislation and the future of RNG items in the BLM

[usnedward.9023]

@Sombra.3246 said:

@usnedward.9023 said:

@Sombra.3246 said:

@usnedward.9023 said:

@Sombra.3246 said:Yes there has to be something done about this issue. My hope is that they can be transparent with us by choice instead of having to be forced to do it by legislation.

I also opened a discussion on the issue of gambling, drop rates, rng and transparency check it out. There was a lot of discussion and some interesting posts in my thread as well.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26456/discussion-on-black-lion-chests-gambling-drop-rate-rng-and-transparency#latest

Transparent. Can I ask of what? You know already that to get a very rare like a contract or rare is very low chance to get. Let's say they published the drop rate. Would you then use that to calculate how many keys...buy the keys and when you don't get it come back to say it still is not fair?

This is the point I have been trying to make. It seems only unfair to those who choose to buy keys either with gold to gem or cash and "I used 50 key and didn't get item X". Then others come and used 1 or a few keys and got item X. I have a 2700g shield skin and a 700 g staff skin from weekly key runs. OUT of ALL the possible unlocks this is what I got. I have two mini mount packs. Never got anything that good from buying keys. Never got a contract and YES I have bought keys in the past and noticed "Hey...all I am getting is stuff I do not need" so I stopped buying keys. I do not understand how people can't get to that point. IF people got to that point and ANET was not making cash on it then they would source another way. SOOOOO many people were complaining of the BLC that they totally revamped them and the loot is way better than it used to be but that is not enough.

Yes there are things in the BLC I would pay cash or trade gold to gems to get. I just do not see ANET doing this because the keys have got to be a huge slush fund to keep this game going in development. I find NO CHANCE that ANET would fall under the gambling umbrella and if any legislation passes it is one or more years out before it could be implemented.

I use "YOU" in a general sense and not you personally. =)

Firstly if you really wanted context to what I said in my post you should have gone to the link I shared on the discussion on black lion chests gambling drop rates rng and transparency. Clearly you have not done this otherwise you would not be asking this: "Transparent. Can I ask of what?" so I advice you to check that out for more context and information.Secondly there are no official data on drop rates and rng so all statements made about the chance of getting an item to drop are just assumptions.Thirdly your point makes no sense, the reason people are gambling with black lion chests is because they think they have a good chance that the item they want will drop from the chests. Based on my experience and the experience of other players opening chests the drop rate seems very very low almost to a point where it is unfair to the player. If the players were aware of the official drop rates they could make a calculated risk instead of being disappointing every time they open a black lion chest.Lastly like I said in my earlier post, I wish Anet would just be open and transparent with the players about all the drop rates and rng in the game. It should not even be an issue about legislation.

You should make your point here and I should not have to jump posts to understand what you are saying but that is beside the point. Most MMOs do not post drop rates and again even if you knew the drop rate would that change your opinion on whether you buy keys or not? You think it would make a difference. I say there may be a drop in purchases but would not be an impact. AGAIN no one is forcing anyone to buy anything and this is how this game is funded.

My point makes perfect sense. The reason people are gambling with keys is they HOPE to get that very rare drop and when they do not it's buyer's remorse and woe is me. I really do no think there are a lot of people who think they have a good chance at certain items. Drop rates will not make a difference except some may realize they have virtually no chance to get that very rare item. Others do not care and will keep trying and keep complaining. You say the drop rates are unfair and that is your opinion. Bizzard does not publish drop rates...EA does not publish drop rates...and so on. It seems to be an industry standard and has been for many years. DON'T BUY KEYS if you or someone else believes it unfair. What is so hard about that?????

How many pre-cursors have you found? I think I am up to four. People who play way more than I do have not found even one since release. Should we now ask for drop rates for that or we are just going to stop fighting mobs??

Go watch videos and read other posts of 50, 100 and even 1000 keys opening chests and not getting ANY very rare. That should tell you right there the chance is slim to none. I wish you the best on pursuing this issue but I don't think ANET will change it's stance and I believe they will never be forced to.

It is true that most MMORPG's do not post data on drop rates or data on rng. That does not mean that they should not do it, besides that your argument is like a child trying to justify doing something wrong because all the other children are doing it.

Your earlier point made no sense. But in this post you are making my point for me because just like you are saying in this post the reason why people are buying keys is because they think they have a chance and hold on to that hope to get the drops that they want. It is unfair to the casual gamer or the players who just want to gamble on their luck and have no clue and are ignorant of the real drop rates and rng because this data has never been made available.

I have experience opening a bunch of keys and have seen people open 100's and also seen people open 1000's of keys with no very rare drops and very few rare ones. This just shows why Anet needs to be transparent with the players so that they know what chances they have of getting each type of drop.

To answer you on your question about pre-cursors I have found 0 in all my time playing. This bothers me less because I do not have to spend gold/gems to gamble on a chance for it to drop. Most people just buy them of the TP.

As for watching the videos, I have seen a ton of those, it is true most unknown players that do chest openings have horrible drop rates. But I also have seen some big GW2 youtubers that have suspiciously good luck, but hey maybe they are blessed by the six gods who knows.

And yes I will keep discussing this issue, as for their stance I sincerely hope they do become more transparent with their players by choice.

I see no point continuing the conversation because you are bent on that it is unfair and will not come to the realization that the drop rate is horrible and numbers to prove what we already know would not impact you beliefs of fairness anyway so circular reasoning is a stop point for me. I still wish you luck on your endeavor!

Circular reasoning: is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.Interpretation: Drop rate stinks and numbers released would prove that anyway.

[Dawdler.8521]

@mtpelion.4562 said:Technically, you don't ever get anything from virtual loot boxes because the loot is, well, virtual. Not to mention the EULA is pretty specific about the fact that you own no aspect of anything in the game, so even the virtual loot isn't yours.

This means you aren't gambling because you have no chance of ever actually getting something.Then isnt it ironic that ESRB ratings stipulate that games are rated adult only because of gambling with real money but when it comes to games having RNG lootboxes that can be gambled on for RL money... there is no need to rate it adult only because ESRB also says it is not gambling.

I dont think that there is some sort of secret rule to gambling that says if you cant get anything it's not gambling. Like a slot machine where it's impossible to win is no longer gambling because you have no chance of ever getting anything. And the casino doesnt tell you that. So they are in the clear.

(GW2 is rated teen btw)

[Leo G.4501]

Hey everyone! A consensus has been reached.

Gambling is 100% non-existent in GW2 so no need to ever bring this up again!

Yup, as you can read here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30054/i-cant-find-something-worth-doing#latest

Anything purchased with gems is considered "free" within the game. That is, since no money transaction is made with the purchasing of items with gems, this circumvents any connection of real currency and thus gambling.

I'm glad we've all come to agree on things, yes?

[Tolmos.8395]

@Khisanth.2948 said:Why do you think the statuettes got added?

I feel like this was pretty much /thread. It’s the most direct and plausible answer to the OP

[Obtena.7952]

@DMO.4158 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"usnedward.9023" said:From ESRB From Forbes article:

“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”

That is an old article I think?

If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it.

Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just...

mindboggling

.

Its kitten identical to a slot machine

.

Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet

could

easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not

my

money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol.

When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests.

Lol I love this rationale.So if you get a crap consolation prize, it's magically not gambling?

Why haven't casinos thought of this? Give everyone a penny that loses. BOOM! Not gambling.

Hold on ... It's not even that. You don't actually own anything in this game ... you pay for access to a service ... so it's irrelevant what you do or don't get when you open a chest. You are buying BL keys for the access to open chests, that's all.

[Lonami.2987]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"usnedward.9023" said:From ESRB From Forbes article:

“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”

That is an old article I think?

If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it.

Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just...

mindboggling

.

Its kitten identical to a slot machine

.

Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet

could

easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not

my

money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol.

When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests.

Do you realize there's no difference between winning nothing and winning something you don't want, specially when you can't resell or trade it?

What if casinos started giving you free trash when you lose? Hey, it's not gambling, you're getting something! Who cares if it's useless and you never wanted it in the first place, am I right?

@Khisanth.2948 said:Why do you think the statuettes got added?

Exactly. It's still going to affect them anyway, this is going to explode sooner or later, and it will leave no survivors. RNG for real money is doomed. They better start thinking about new monetization models before they get their toys taken away.

[FOX.3582]

Oh please, pleaaaaase stop this. Comparing apples and oranges. Everything in this game is 100% obtainable with IN-GAME CURRENCY! This game has nothing to do with the regulations and incoming laws around the loot-boxes because of that. Are you folks that dense...

[usnedward.9023]

@Lonami.2987 said:

When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests.

Do you realize there's no difference between winning nothing and winning something you don't want, specially when you can't resell or trade it?

What if casinos started giving you free trash when you lose? Hey, it's not gambling, you're getting something! Who cares if it's useless and you never wanted it in the first place, am I right?

You do realize that a Casino and ANET do not FORCE you to do anything. This is the point that keeps getting missed. Don't like the outcome don't play. Also the other point is real money does not need to be spent as you can trade gold for gems.

@Khisanth.2948 said:Why do you think the statuettes got added?

Exactly. It's still going to affect them anyway, this is going to explode sooner or later, and it will leave no survivors. RNG for real money is doomed. They better start thinking about new monetization models before they get their toys taken away.

The community has been asking for a long time to change the BLC as they were stale. ANET did and the statuettes offer you to get what you may not get by looting the BLC. This week 5 statuettes in weekly key run and then additional 2 when two maps completed giving me a key. Think I am over 30 now and not spent a dollar.

This topic is becoming stale because there are a variety of ways to get the keys. You or others do not like the outcome. If you are buying keys I say again STOP. Trust me this is not going to blow up any time soon if at all. Those who are dissatisfied will not be happy until the store is gone and there is a monthly fee (which I doubt would happen).

I go back and read these posts and it makes me wanna wrap my head in duck-tape before it explodes.

[Faaris.8013]

@FOX.3582 said:Oh please, pleaaaaase stop this. Comparing apples and oranges. Everything in this game is 100% obtainable with IN-GAME CURRENCY! This game has nothing to do with the regulations and incoming laws around the loot-boxes because of that. Are you folks that dense...

So if nobody bought gems with real money, the gems you get from achievement boxes once in a while would meet the demand? I don't think so. Almost every gem you buy with gold has been bougth with real money. Almost nothing is obtainable with ingame currency if you look at the economy as a whole. If you only pick the community of freeloaders who never spend any money on the game, you are not looking at the whole picture.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

@"usnedward.9023" said:You do realize that a Casino and ANET do not FORCE you to do anything. This is the point that keeps getting missed. Don't like the outcome don't play. Also the other point is real money does not need to be spent as you can trade gold for gems.

Casino's don't force you to gamble, but there are still laws and legislation in place to stop people underage from gambling in them. The reason is simple, gambling can be addictive and subsequently destructive to the gambler, and allowing people underage to play and possibly develop addictive tendencies is regarded as irresponsible and unlawful (for the same reasons alcohol and cigarettes are only sold to people of age, despite also being optional consumables).

In other words, if loot boxes are ruled as being a form of gambling through new legislation, then it doesn't matter whether it is optional or not, companies selling them might find themselves being restricted in some form, or may have to change the ratings for their games so they are only available to players above the age limit for gambling in their countries. I assume ANet's addition of a guaranteed, consistent reward in their new iteration for BL chests is an effort to circumvent their boxes being defined as gambling, but we still don't know what the parameters for any new laws, if they are introduced, might be and whether or not ANet has done enough to remain outside of those parameters.

Of course, it all falls in the realm of speculation right now, but the reality of potential laws being passed is very real, and I think questioning ANet's stance on the subject, even if just as a matter of interest, is not necessarily a bad thing. I doubt we'd get an answer though, because ANet may not feel safe enough to give one at this point in time (right now is probably a "wait and see" period). Of course, it's fine for everyone to have their own opinion on Black Lion Chests, and everyone is free to like or dislike them as they please, but laws - or even just a general negative reception in the industry - can change trends, irrespective of whether we personally agree with them or not.

[usnedward.9023]

@Tenrai Senshi.2017 said:

@"usnedward.9023" said:You do realize that a Casino and ANET do not FORCE you to do anything. This is the point that keeps getting missed. Don't like the outcome don't play. Also the other point is real money does not need to be spent as you can trade gold for gems.

Casino's don't force you to gamble, but there are still laws and legislation in place to stop people underage from gambling in them. The reason is simple, gambling can be addictive and subsequently destructive to the gambler, and allowing people underage to play and possibly develop addictive tendencies is regarded as irresponsible and unlawful (for the same reasons alcohol and cigarettes are only sold to people of age, despite also being optional consumables).

In other words, if loot boxes are ruled as being a form of gambling through new legislation, then it doesn't matter whether it is optional or not, companies selling them might find themselves being restricted in some form, or may have to change the ratings for their games so they are only available to players above the age limit for gambling in their countries. I assume ANet's addition of a guaranteed, consistent reward in their new iteration for BL chests is an effort to circumvent their boxes being defined as gambling, but we still don't know what the parameters for any new laws, if they are introduced, might be and whether or not ANet has done enough to remain outside of those parameters.

Of course, it all falls in the realm of speculation right now, but the reality of potential laws being passed is very real, and I think questioning ANet's stance on the subject, even if just as a matter of interest, is not necessarily a bad thing. I doubt we'd get an answer though, because ANet may not feel safe enough to give one at this point in time (right now is probably a "wait and see" period). Of course, it's fine for everyone to have their own opinion on Black Lion Chests, and everyone is free to like or dislike them as they please, but laws - or even just a general negative reception in the industry - can change trends, irrespective of whether we personally agree with them or not.

How would you regulate GEM Cards in stores? How would you regulate little Johnny taking mom's CC? How would you regulate Mom and Dad giving in? How do you regulate junior opening a new account and "saying" he is 18? How do you regulate [Many Options Here]?

Well, ANET could regulate you can buy X amount of GEMS a month and then the player base who can afford and play responsibly would be upset. I understand the gambling aspect I truly do as gambling is horrible in my family. Thank God it didn't pass on to me but again there are bigger fish to fry.

I asked earlier in this post and never got an answer... HOW MUCH are you willing to pay out right for what's in the BOX? If BLC are found to be gambling many people will be right back here complaining "ANET now wants to charge me $25 for a skin... a wardrobe piece... $150 for a perma contract and so on". Guess what...people will pay it.

As an example, Blizzard has monthly fees ON TOP of a cash shop selling $25 dollar mounts. Is that abusive? They sell a coin so you can sell for gold. Is that abusive? The economy is so wrecked in that game that if you start fresh you almost have to buy the coins to get anywhere in the game so you can get some gold. Is that abusive? The answer is NO. It is a business model and unfortunately people will go broke for these MMOs. It is not just one but many games that build success on our money. Either we pay up front or over time. IF YOU KEEP BUYING KEYS THEY WILL CONTINUE TO SELL THEM.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

@usnedward.9023 said:

@Tenrai Senshi.2017 said:

@usnedward.9023 said:You do realize that a Casino and ANET do not FORCE you to do anything. This is the point that keeps getting missed. Don't like the outcome don't play. Also the other point is real money does not need to be spent as you can trade gold for gems.

Casino's don't force you to gamble, but there are still laws and legislation in place to stop people underage from gambling in them. The reason is simple, gambling can be addictive and subsequently destructive to the gambler, and allowing people underage to play and possibly develop addictive tendencies is regarded as irresponsible and unlawful (for the same reasons alcohol and cigarettes are only sold to people of age, despite also being optional consumables).

In other words, if loot boxes are ruled as being a form of gambling through new legislation, then it doesn't matter whether it is optional or not, companies selling them might find themselves being restricted in some form, or may have to change the ratings for their games so they are only available to players above the age limit for gambling in their countries. I assume ANet's addition of a guaranteed, consistent reward in their new iteration for BL chests is an effort to circumvent their boxes being defined as gambling, but we still don't know what the parameters for any new laws, if they are introduced, might be and whether or not ANet has done enough to remain outside of those parameters.

Of course, it all falls in the realm of speculation right now, but the reality of potential laws being passed is very real, and I think questioning ANet's stance on the subject, even if just as a matter of interest, is not necessarily a bad thing. I doubt we'd get an answer though, because ANet may not feel safe enough to give one at this point in time (right now is probably a "wait and see" period). Of course, it's fine for everyone to have their own opinion on Black Lion Chests, and everyone is free to like or dislike them as they please, but laws - or even just a general negative reception in the industry - can change trends, irrespective of whether we personally agree with them or not.

How would you regulate GEM Cards in stores? How would you regulate little Johnny taking mom's CC? How would you regulate Mom and Dad giving in? How do you regulate junior opening a new account and "saying" he is 18? How do you regulate [Many Options Here]?

I don't know, I am not the one deciding on such regulations. That being said, you could ask the same question for age restricted games being sold to minors, which happens all the time. It doesn't stop the games from getting the age restriction rating though, and the restriction can prevent sales in the cases where parents are attentive when it comes to the games they buy for their children.

Well, ANET could regulate you can buy X amount of GEMS a month and then the player base who can afford and play responsibly would be upset. I understand the gambling aspect I truly do as gambling is horrible in my family. Thank God it didn't pass on to me but again there are bigger fish to fry.

You can't reasonably be expected to stop all illegal behavior online, but again, setting age restrictions does create more of a bottleneck, which helps prevent sales to under-aged players from happening. Regardless, the mere possibility of having to change their game to an 18+ rating could be enough to make ANet abandon RNG loot boxes in favor of relying on direct sales of items. It really depends on what the pros and cons are for them, with regards to a more limited audience vs spending trends on loot boxes.

I asked earlier in this post and never got an answer... HOW MUCH are you willing to pay out right for what's in the BOX? If BLC are found to be gambling many people will be right back here complaining "ANET now wants to charge me $25 for a skin... a wardrobe piece... $150 for a perma contract and so on". Guess what...people will pay it.

For me personally, I'm fine with paying 600 - 800 gems for items I like. As long as it is within reason. Obviously it depends on the item. In fact, I think we wouldn't be having this debate in the industry to begin with if companies just gave players a choice between trying to get an item through RNG, or buying it directly. One game I think got a nice balance was Blizzard's Heroes of the Storm. They have loot boxes for cosmetics and such that you can buy or earn through playing, but every single item that you could possibly get from those boxes can also be bought directly, either through in-game currencies or with money. The choice to buy an item directly is often enough for someone to avoid the temptation of gambling for it. The issue for me or others is when such an option does not exist.

Still, I personally think ANet's iteration is a lot less unpleasant than most, because you can still at least earn BL keys in game. However, I would still prefer it if I could just buy what I want directly and save myself the grief of RNG.

As an example, Blizzard has monthly fees ON TOP of a cash shop selling $25 dollar mounts. Is that abusive? They sell a coin so you can sell for gold. Is that abusive? The economy is so wrecked in that game that if you start fresh you almost have to buy the coins to get anywhere in the game so you can get some gold. Is that abusive? The answer is NO. It is a business model and unfortunately people will go broke for these MMOs. It is not just one but many games that build success on our money. Either we pay up front or over time. IF YOU KEEP BUYING KEYS THEY WILL CONTINUE TO SELL THEM.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion. You are making a comparison between selling items for a premium price and the concept of RNG loot boxes. Those are two separate matters, that warrant separate discussions. Please note, that players are not arguing against gaming companies making money, and there are plenty of ways to make money through direct sales without relying on RNG loot boxes. But some people overlook that simple fact.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Sounds a bit like the outrage over the cost of Mountfits that are sold with no RNG vs. the cost of Mountfits that do use a form of RNG. I wonder, if Black Lion Chests were removed, and the cost of the items within were raised to enable ArenaNet to obtain the same amount of income, if the lamentations would be any less.

Food for thought.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Sounds a bit like the outrage over the cost of Mountfits that are sold with no RNG vs. the cost of Mountfits that do use a form of RNG. I wonder, if Black Lion Chests were removed, and the cost of the items within were raised to enable ArenaNet to obtain the same amount of income, if the lamentations would be any less.

Food for thought.

That would depend on how much income BL Chests make them exactly. We don't have sales figures, but considering the recent new iterations on the rewards, it might have been a case where they weren't selling as well as ANet liked, and so they were trying to increase the appeal. Objectively speaking, there's a possibility ANet could make more sales - and thus money - even without raising prices, simply by selling the items directly in order to appeal to those who turn their noses up at RNG loot boxes (which seems to be a growing trend in the industry lately).

Why do people think raising prices is the only way to make more money, especially for digital items?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I don't know; the Gold to Gems rate always jumps enormously whenever Black Lion Keys are on sale. I would guess they are one of ArenaNet's best sellers.

[DarcShriek.5829]

Currently in the US, it seems pretty settled that loot boxes are not gambling. What ever laws are created to regulate loot boxes will have to create a new category of item for them. The legal definition of gambling has been defined for a while now. If congress attempts to redefine what gambling is it will have many unintended consequences that will affect many businesses that currently are not considered to be gambling. You can kiss Chuck E. Cheese goodbye.

[Astralporing.1957]

@DarcShriek.5829 said:Currently in the US, it seems pretty settled that loot boxes are not gambling. What ever laws are created to regulate loot boxes will have to create a new category of item for them. The legal definition of gambling has been defined for a while now. If congress attempts to redefine what gambling is it will have many unintended consequences that will affect many businesses that currently are not considered to be gambling. You can kiss Chuck E. Cheese goodbye.At the same time EU does recently try to adjust legal definition of gambling, being aware that it's seriously outdated. If the changes were to include lootboxes and similar common gemshop tactics, the fact that US law is archaic in places would be irrelevant - any game company wanting to do business in EU would have to adjust the game for EU players. And seeing all the complications that could follow if they tried to make a separate version of the game/gemshop for EU and US, i'm pretty sute that most companies would rather adjust the whole game than mantain that split.

[DarcShriek.5829]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@DarcShriek.5829 said:Currently in the US, it seems pretty settled that loot boxes are not gambling. What ever laws are created to regulate loot boxes will have to create a new category of item for them. The legal definition of gambling has been defined for a while now. If congress attempts to redefine what gambling is it will have many unintended consequences that will affect many businesses that currently are not considered to be gambling. You can kiss Chuck E. Cheese goodbye.At the same time EU does recently try to adjust legal definition of gambling, being aware that it's seriously outdated. If the changes were to include lootboxes and similar common gemshop tactics, the fact that US law is archaic in places would be irrelevant - any game company wanting to do business in EU would have to adjust the game for EU players. And seeing all the complications that could follow if they tried to make a separate version of the game/gemshop for EU and US, i'm pretty sute that most companies would rather adjust the whole game than mantain that split.

I'm not convinced the law is archaic. Loot Boxes are not anything new. Loot boxes are only new to the digital world. Why should digital loot boxes be treated differently than real ones? You're right about EU though. If they manage to regulate loot boxes, then games every where will change to meet their requirements. We do it where I work. We only make one version of each game and it's made to fit the regulations of every jurisdiction in the world.

[Leo G.4501]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"DarcShriek.5829" said:Currently in the US, it seems pretty settled that loot boxes are not gambling. What ever laws are created to regulate loot boxes will have to create a new category of item for them. The legal definition of gambling has been defined for a while now. If congress attempts to redefine what gambling is it will have many unintended consequences that will affect many businesses that currently are not considered to be gambling. You can kiss Chuck E. Cheese goodbye.At the same time EU does recently try to adjust legal definition of gambling, being aware that it's seriously outdated. If the changes were to include lootboxes and similar common gemshop tactics, the fact that US law is archaic in places would be irrelevant - any game company wanting to do business in EU would have to adjust the game for EU players. And seeing all the complications that could follow if they tried to make a separate version of the game/gemshop for EU and US, i'm pretty sute that most companies would rather adjust the whole game than mantain that split.

Looking at all the effects this change would have, I ask everyone to step back and look at at what the change does and what it proports to accomplish.

These changes are for the sake of protecting vulnerable individuals who may become exploited. However, it doesn't do anything of the sort. Those vulnerable individuals will still be exploited by micro transaction mobile games (which are growing far faster than any other loot box type of"gambling"), will still end up suffering from RNG and inflated prices that must be ramped up to counter the void created by removing loot boxes.

People are heralding the intervention of government in matters that do not need government and cannot see that the help they will get will be insufficient, inefficient and just harms the industry trying to entertain you. It's baffling.

And I can hear people respond with "you white Knight, shoveling over within wallet. You can't just let companies suck you dry" to which I say, unless they are putting a gun to my head, I doubt they could ever suck me dry without my consent.

[DarcShriek.5829]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"DarcShriek.5829" said:Currently in the US, it seems pretty settled that loot boxes are not gambling. What ever laws are created to regulate loot boxes will have to create a new category of item for them. The legal definition of gambling has been defined for a while now. If congress attempts to redefine what gambling is it will have many unintended consequences that will affect many businesses that currently are not considered to be gambling. You can kiss Chuck E. Cheese goodbye.At the same time EU does recently try to adjust legal definition of gambling, being aware that it's seriously outdated. If the changes were to include lootboxes and similar common gemshop tactics, the fact that US law is archaic in places would be irrelevant - any game company wanting to do business in EU would have to adjust the game for EU players. And seeing all the complications that could follow if they tried to make a separate version of the game/gemshop for EU and US, i'm pretty sute that most companies would rather adjust the whole game than mantain that split.

Looking at all the effects this change would have, I ask everyone to step back and look at at what the change does and what it proports to accomplish.

These changes are for the sake of protecting vulnerable individuals who may become exploited. However, it doesn't do anything of the sort. Those vulnerable individuals will still be exploited by micro transaction mobile games (which are growing far faster than any other loot box type of"gambling"), will still end up suffering from RNG and inflated prices that must be ramped up to counter the void created by removing loot boxes.

People are heralding the intervention of government in matters that do not need government and cannot see that the help they will get will be insufficient, inefficient and just harms the industry trying to entertain you. It's baffling.

And I can hear people respond with "you white Knight, shoveling over within wallet. You can't just let companies suck you dry" to which I say, unless they are putting a gun to my head, I doubt they could ever suck me dry without my consent.

But it's for the children. Therefore if you don't support us you are mean and heartless and hate children. /sarc

[Ayrilana.1396]

How far removed would the RNG aspect have to be from the Black Lion chests in order for it not to be considered gambling from a legal standpoint (if it is ever actually deemed as gambling)? People certainly don’t consider ecto gambling as an issue.

[Jski.6180]

Seems like a waist of time when real problems of losing freedoms over the web use due to who your provider is and what they feel you should pay for and what content they want you to use is going on. This is an issues of pure detraction and has next to nothing to do with your day to day "gaming" life but how data traversal over the web has every thing to do with it.

I get the feeling this is the only thing the "gaming" wold has control over so they are pretending every thing else is ok to give them self a feeling that they are not about to lose all control over there "gaming."

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I wish people would stop arguing about the definition of gambling — it's a distraction from whatever it is that people are actually worried about.

• Do BL Keys encourage "kids" to spend more money than they should?
• Do they take advantage of people with poor will power?
• Are they a reasonable tool for funding a non-subscription game? What if it's a subscription game?
• MMOs are full of RNG. What specifically makes BL keys different? How much does it matter that people can choose to convert in-game gold to gems? Would it be different if these were available in game for laurels plus gold?
• How much does the BL Statuette system alleviate concerns?
• Is this more of a problem with phone & browser games? Or is it something that MMOs should also worry about it?
• If any of the above is true, is it something appropriate for government intervention? If so, is regulating loot boxes the best way to go about preventing or reducing the issues?
• Regardless of the merits, why is this such a hot button issue for some of us? And why do many of us not "get" the concern(s)?

[Fremtid.3528]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"usnedward.9023" said:

It's possible that buying revive orbs with gems/money is worse than Black Lion Chests. You get a clear advantage in the game with them. You can almost force your group to beat 100cm Arkk with low skill if everybody has just enough revive orbs. It's not "cosmetic" (whatever that really means) and costs money.

This is not only false its RIDICULOUSLY false. There's a cooldown for revive orbs and if you use them too many time in a row the cooldown ends up being like 2 days or something until you waypoint. So you can only "die" so may times and use a revive orb until you crap out. Beating a 100 CM Arkk with low skill on the premise that a gemstore stash of revive orbs will carry them through it is next to impossible.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Leo G.4501" said:These changes are for the sake of protecting vulnerable individuals who may become exploited. However, it doesn't do anything of the sort. Those vulnerable individuals will still be exploited by micro transaction mobile games (which are growing far faster than any other loot box type of"gambling"), will still end up suffering from RNG and inflated prices that must be ramped up to counter the void created by removing loot boxes.If you haven't noticed, lawmakers are starting to pay attention to microtransactions in mobile games. It may be slow, and each change may be small, but there were several of those in EU in the last years.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:How far removed would the RNG aspect have to be from the Black Lion chests in order for it not to be considered gambling from a legal standpoint (if it is ever actually deemed as gambling)?

Hard to say, because the legal changes didn't happen yet. Currently, in most countries they are not considered to be gambling because they utilize a score of loopholes law haven't caught up with yet.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:People certainly don’t consider ecto gambling as an issue.Because no real money is involved.