How to deal with Scourge as a melee class?

[skyline.3286]

I play primarily melee classes: Spellbreaker, guardian, and staff DD in WvW. I don't claim to be a particularly good player, and I lose to skilled players of all classes, but I've noticed that I consistently have a hard time against scourges.

Is there a trick to dealing with scourges? Of course, I can just try not to stand in the red circles, but they're huge. Besides, the scourge is usually standing in them, so I can't hit them while they can still hit me. And of course in sPvP it's even worse because they can cover the entire point.

I bring condi cleanse on every build, but it seems like a joke because of how quickly the conditions get reapplied. Resistance is less than worthless because it just gets corrupted. I've heard that I should be trying to CC them and burst them down, but since this means jumping into their AoE it usually means suicide if I don't immediately kill them (maybe I'm just bad).

What should I be looking out for? Critical skills to dodge? Tips that I should be aware of when engaging a Scourge?

[Aza.2105]

@skyline.3286 said:I play primarily melee classes: Spellbreaker, guardian, and staff DD in WvW. I don't claim to be a particularly good player, and I lose to skilled players of all classes, but I've noticed that I consistently have a hard time against scourges.

Is there a trick to dealing with scourges? Of course, I can just try not to stand in the red circles, but they're huge. Besides, the scourge is usually standing in them, so I can't hit them while they can still hit me. And of course in sPvP it's even worse because they can cover the entire point.

I bring condi cleanse on every build, but it seems like a joke because of how quickly the conditions get reapplied. Resistance is less than worthless because it just gets corrupted. I've heard that I should be trying to CC them and burst them down, but since this means jumping into their AoE it usually means suicide if I don't immediately kill them (maybe I'm just bad).

What should I be looking out for? Critical skills to dodge? Tips that I should be aware of when engaging a Scourge?

Not possible to deal with them as a melee class. Warrior can somewhat with their near perma resistance but that will be corrupted. Scourge pretty much shuts any melee down.

[Ziooo.8932]

Easy way: grab a ranged weapon

Hard/skilled way (if possible): go in as their bursts are on cd, time yours correctly (after he heals or barrier ends) or inturrupt his heal. Scourge dies fairly quickly without support if hes without his heals or stun breaks which gives a small opening for you. The hard part is baiting or avoiding his burst, which he can use while defending himself from yours.

Your aim should be to get better at trading with them, hit without being hit and the classes you listed are pretty decent on that. Predict their bursts and invuln/evade/block and use your mobility advantage to close the gap or flee,they probably will have a hard time chasing, so you can reset and try again. After a while they will probably be out of lifeforce, so they wont retaliate or defend themselves as hard and youll score the kill.

Ofc by that time you already lost the game, but thats more or less what you theoretically should do.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@skyline.3286 said:

Is there a trick to dealing with scourges? Of course, I can just try not to stand in the red circles, but they're huge. Besides, the scourge is usually standing in them, so I can't hit them while they can still hit me. And of course in sPvP it's even worse because they can cover the entire point.

Scourge it self also counts as a shade for the f skills so they are quite literally always standing in the middle of their red circles unless they run out of life-force.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

It's possible to handle Scourges as a melee class, but you do need a different approach than brawling it out.

First, do your best to limit your Stability. Outside of corrupting Stability, Scourge in general has pretty weak disables. Don't use it and he can't corrupt it for more Fear.Second, watch for the Desert Shroud. Once this is over, you have a 10 second window where their pressure is significantly lower and their only defense is a 2k Barrier. This is your opportunity to go in. If you overstay your window, you can block all of the Shade skills while you back off.

Trying to flank them protects you from Torch 4, and Torch 5 is your biggest concern for avoiding on the CC front.

And obviously, don't stand in Ghastly Breach. That skill will destroy you.

[Crinn.7864]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Outside of corrupting Stability, Scourge in general has pretty weak disables.Scourge has 3 hard CC not including stability corruption, all of which are AoE, and all of which are a 1 second or longer in duration.

If you pop stability a Scourge might be able to CC you if he lands the RNG boon corrupt. If you don't pop stability the Scourge will stunlock you.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Outside of corrupting Stability, Scourge in general has pretty weak disables.Scourge has 3 hard CC not including stability corruption, all of which are a 1 second or longer in duration.

2 of which get removed via condition clears (most classes have an instant-cast one available) as well as stun breaks and I did mention Torch 5 as the primary one to look out for. One of the fears is on a long cooldown anyway and as such usually gets saved to interrupt blocks (when possible).

Thief is the only profession that has hard CC of less than 1 second anyway, so saying that Scourge has 3 of at least that duration really doesn't say much. What's more important is the cooldowns, where Scourge gets 1 at 12 seconds cooldown.

[perko.8309]

Thanks for posting this Q OP. And thanks for the replies that offered real suggestions.

[Crinn.7864]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Outside of corrupting Stability, Scourge in general has pretty weak disables.Scourge has 3 hard CC not including stability corruption, all of which are a 1 second or longer in duration.

2 of which get removed via condition clears (most classes have an instant-cast one available)

First off instant cast condi clear isn't that common, secondly most condi clear will get wasted on the multiple cover conditions that get applied by Scourge. Third, if you do clear that fear with your condi clear then what will you use to clear the Scourge's damage condis now that you've wasted your clear?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Outside of corrupting Stability, Scourge in general has pretty weak disables.Scourge has 3 hard CC not including stability corruption, all of which are a 1 second or longer in duration.

2 of which get removed via condition clears (most classes have an instant-cast one available)

First off instant cast condi clear isn't that common, secondly most condi clear will get wasted on the multiple cover conditions that get applied by Scourge. Third, if you do clear that fear with your condi clear then what will you use to clear the Scourge's damage condis now that you've wasted your clear?

All depends on context. Condition removals (though not condition conversions or transfers) are all last-in, first-out. If you get hit with Reaper's Mark, an instant-cast removal will usually take care of it without problem if you react quickly (unless Barbed Precision procced). Garish Pillar I'm less certain on the exact order that the Fear and Torment+Cripple get applied in. When Engineers still had the automatic conversion on Transmute, this would have been easy to test. Since the Fear and Torment+Cripple are technically two skills, there is definitely a set order to them that never changes. Easiest way to test would be Runes of the Soldier and a non-stunbreak shout that doesn't normally cleanse conditions.

Even so, condition clears are just an option with Fear (remember: allies cleanse conditions off you too!). Stunbreaks still work just as well and EVERY viable PvP build carries at least one (usually more) of those. Torch 5 is easy to avoid, you can stunbreak Garish Pillar, and Reaper's Mark is mostly used to interrupt specific skills rather than lockdown. Even so, a 1.5 second Fear isn't the end of the world if you have to eat the full duration. Scourge won't kill you in that short of a period.

[reikken.4961]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Outside of corrupting Stability, Scourge in general has pretty weak disables.Scourge has 3 hard CC not including stability corruption, all of which are AoE, and all of which are a 1 second or longer in duration.

Oppressive Collapse is single target. Also can be avoided by simply running forward fast or using a movement skillanyway, spellbreaker's main tool against them isn't resistance, but rather its many evades and interrupts, which you use to avoid getting hit by corrupts while bursting them down

[MyPuppy.8970]

As a sword/dagger weaver (can't be more melee than that) I can manage somehow by applying constant hybrid pressure, timed interrupts and hard/soft cc, as well as constant cleanse in a hit&retreat style. Most of the time I do fine if I don't rush. I engage them off-point whenever I can, I leave if they get +1, but if I can stall enough time for an ally to come to help it's a win. Don't hesitate to disengage if things go south though, but it is valid for any encounter. You can't win every fight, just keep in mind the bigger picture. Regular and quickly available condi cleanse is also more effective than burst cleanse.

[Yukio blaster.9082]

I can destroy scourges in less than 10sec in plat+ with my axe condi mesmer my only fear is the plague signet.Mele weaver can do the same if played with avatar amulet and you got more than 20+condi cleanse .As a warrior i advice you to go watch boyce stream he destroy's scourges completely even legendary scourges learn from him.Gards depends on the build.

[Math.5123]

You will never beat a blood scourge at equal skill with a melee class. You rotate away or reroll.

[allias.1420]

@skyline.3286 said:I play primarily melee classes: Spellbreaker, guardian, and staff DD in WvW. I don't claim to be a particularly good player, and I lose to skilled players of all classes, but I've noticed that I consistently have a hard time against scourges.

Is there a trick to dealing with scourges? Of course, I can just try not to stand in the red circles, but they're huge. Besides, the scourge is usually standing in them, so I can't hit them while they can still hit me. And of course in sPvP it's even worse because they can cover the entire point.

I bring condi cleanse on every build, but it seems like a joke because of how quickly the conditions get reapplied. Resistance is less than worthless because it just gets corrupted. I've heard that I should be trying to CC them and burst them down, but since this means jumping into their AoE it usually means suicide if I don't immediately kill them (maybe I'm just bad).

What should I be looking out for? Critical skills to dodge? Tips that I should be aware of when engaging a Scourge?

I can offer some advice as a warrior, which I believe is the easiest class to play against Scourge.

1. Try to bait out their skills. I like to engage a scourge by using Rush, swapping weapon halfway and kiting out of their aoes and wait a few seconds. Use LOS obstruction to your advantage, their shroud aoes cannot hit you if their line of sight is obstructed.
2. Throughout the fight, you will have to swap weapon very often to nullify the inflicted conditions. For this to work best I suggest every warrior take the sigil that removes a condition and apply it to their d/s set. If you are suffering from multiple conditions and you can see that removing 2 conditions won't be enough to prevent a big amount of damage, pop your resistance and shield block, evade or get los obstruction to avoid resistance corruption. Spare your resistance and DO NOT use it unless you absolutely must.
3. The best strategy to adopt when fighting a scourge is by dropping in and out of the fight, dealing packets of damage every so often. Scourge has terrible sustain, so use it to your advantage. For example, engage by doing jump+dagger 2, auto attack for a second, dagger 3 and more autos, swap to sword and whirlwind away to safety. Rinse and repeat. Practice this and you should be able to win a 1v1 or a team fight.
4. Use weapon stow to cancel key abilities such as F1 gs, this should scare the scourge into wasting a dodge. Once the scourge's endurance is low, use shield 4 off target and then click back on the target for a slight juke. Then burst them for a bit and retreat. For me, this works 90% of the time (make sure they don't have stability before you do it).

Playing as warrior I always win duels against necros. If you know the strategy well and apply it, you will win too.

[Damocles.4908]

@skyline.3286 said:I play primarily melee classes: Spellbreaker, guardian, and staff DD in WvW. I don't claim to be a particularly good player, and I lose to skilled players of all classes, but I've noticed that I consistently have a hard time against scourges.

Is there a trick to dealing with scourges? Of course, I can just try not to stand in the red circles, but they're huge. Besides, the scourge is usually standing in them, so I can't hit them while they can still hit me. And of course in sPvP it's even worse because they can cover the entire point.

I bring condi cleanse on every build, but it seems like a joke because of how quickly the conditions get reapplied. Resistance is less than worthless because it just gets corrupted. I've heard that I should be trying to CC them and burst them down, but since this means jumping into their AoE it usually means suicide if I don't immediately kill them (maybe I'm just bad).

What should I be looking out for? Critical skills to dodge? Tips that I should be aware of when engaging a Scourge?

What you can do is try keep them suppressed with CC, the second you see the sand stability then switch to immobilize skills, but yea its hard to do it with a melee class..

[Axl.8924]

I get the idea that the game will never be truly balanced.

Players are still crying for nerfs for necros and druids, and won't be happy till they are gutted.I have seen many suggest things that would gut scourge, and leave it a helpless punching bag.

Meanwhile:Druids do good heals and survive, what a surprise.People are annoyed because druids can survive as bunker healers, even though its balanced with not being able to do lots of damage when built for healing.If they are build for damage, they won't be doing a ton of healing, and if they are built for healing, with healing traits, it won't be tons of damage.Next thing you know, people will cry that druids can heal and buff and rez people when traited, and gut that, because people are jealous of that.

Best bet is to simply either reroll to another class thats not druid or necro, or quit the game and play something else.

[Ressurected.6312]

Scourges are really strong teamfighters and if you can stay alive as a Spellbreaker vs Scourge that's good enough (ideally on a decapped node). They just bring more value to the teamfight than Spellbreaker, and if you split Scourge and Firebrand apart you can kill them pretty easily if you get +1 from thief. Also, they have very bad mobility, so if you can rotate faster, you might not even need to 1vs1 a Scourge.

[Jarettellis.7813]

As most have said above, CC and kite.Coming from a Revenant main, it can be a total uphill battle for me. I get a little surprise edge on them because you do not see a lot of power renegades. Or a lot of power revenants in general. (From my experience I don't see a lot of them)

Shiro/kalla. Start in shiro, go PT +SotM. This usually gets them off point. (Unless they got reapers defense. You'll have to legend swap to break that fear). Once off point if all went according to plan (and no thief is high tailing it to the node) you get into kalla, hit your stun summon followed by weapon swap to s/s. Hit your sword 4 immobile. (By this time they are trying their hardest to get barrier up). Summon icerazor (all that crip and invul), this will eat up their barrier fast. Sword two, into a citadel bombardment. (They shoildbe about to try and hit heal). If enough energy, hit your sword 5 for that nice slow debuff. If not enough energy, swap to staff and shiro. Hit your staff two, or jade wind. This either jades them, or disables their heal. By this point they are either very low, or downed. IO aa on sword till downed, or drop stun summon from kalla on their downstate. This helps you, and stuns anyone trying to help their necro.

This is just my experience

[Vagrant.7206]

It is possible, but it's a giant waste of time to try to only melee a scourge. You essentially need to range or kite them down to about 50-60% health and then rush in with your strongest burst. If that doesn't work, rinse and repeat. The only way I win fights against scourges on my holo is by plinking them down to a decent health, tricking them into burning their cooldowns/life force, and then slamming them with Photon Forge. It is also possible to stunlock scourges if they've wasted their trail of anguish skill, since they have very few stunbreaks otherwise. Unfortunately, stunlocking them doesn't prevent them from spamming their AoE bombs.

Of course, this all assumes you won't get 2v1'ed during the really long fight, because otherwise you're completely toast.

Spellbreaker and holo currently have the best chance to survive melee encounters with scourge, but you really do have to design your build to deal with it.

@Axl.8924 said:Meanwhile:Druids do good heals and survive, what a surprise.People are annoyed because druids can survive as bunker healers, even though its balanced with not being able to do lots of damage when built for healing.If they are build for damage, they won't be doing a ton of healing, and if they are built for healing, with healing traits, it won't be tons of damage.Next thing you know, people will cry that druids can heal and buff and rez people when traited, and gut that, because people are jealous of that.

The problem with druids is not their healing. Their damage is high for a bunker, but that's not the real source of the problem.

The problem is their ability to reset the fight from scratch, repeatedly. Soon as they leave CA and stealth+superspeed, it's like the last 30 seconds are entirely wiped clean and the fight starts anew. They can reposition (typically in the most obnoxious way possible) and heal up to full health. Not only is this impossible to deal with as an individual, even groups have a hard time pinning down druids and finishing them because of the stealth+superspeed.

Sure, I can force druids to give up a point gradually because I specc'd my holo to be more of a bruiser, but it wastes a ton of time in a game mode in which time is critical.

Unsurprisingly, the best way to fix this is by nerfing the effectiveness of the stealth+superspeed. How that happens is a point for discussion, but ultimately that particular behavior is the most egregious.

[Deax.1572]

I'm able to take care of em with my Sword/pistol thief. Acrobatics/trickery/daredevil. the 3# skill is an evade as well as dps, they usually use their hard hitting aoe's when you're in close range. once the evade frames are gone i sometimes pop bandit's defense for extra blocs and the follow up knock down which might proc daredevil's PI.Evade frames are particularly useful when in melee rage vs a scourge as they will key-spam their abilities with little thought. Most anyway.

[Ghos.1326]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Outside of corrupting Stability, Scourge in general has pretty weak disables.Scourge has 3 hard CC not including stability corruption, all of which are a 1 second or longer in duration.

2 of which get removed via condition clears (most classes have an instant-cast one available)

First off instant cast condi clear isn't that common, secondly most condi clear will get wasted on the multiple cover conditions that get applied by Scourge. Third, if you do clear that fear with your condi clear then what will you use to clear the Scourge's damage condis now that you've wasted your clear?

Not to mention the second fear from staff 4, if i am not mistaken, on the current meta build. Then there is always the knockdown from torch 5 to cover absence of fears.

[Toron.4856]

if playing war, run in and out. bait their stabiliy and make sure (if core war) to land the full bullscharge on them. within those 3 secs u can almost fully take them down. and afterwards LOS a bit till ur zerk stance is back up. might have to use signet. make use of ur ranged dmg (axe throw and GS throw) while los, basically cast run into sigh and back out of sight. stuff like that.

[ReaverKane.7598]

If you can cc them long enough to get a kill, do it. If not, don't fight him melee.Find a different oponent. Nothing says every class needs to be able to kill all classes.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Have a ranger or ranged spec'd thief with you to kill them. Can be done in under 7 seconds despite how much healing is thrown at the scourge. Or, get off the melee class and get on a ranged class to deal with them.

The same question can be asked, is any mismatched class situation during a rock/paper/scissors battle. Either bring the appropriate element to the table with you to deal with them, or jump on the appropriate element.

I actually posed a similar question years ago about how as a LB ranger do you deal with a tanky melee class. Only answer I got was "don't play a ranger". So I suppose the best answer for you is "don't play melee"