GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[gateless gate.8406]

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

How are you able to identify people's gender and SKIN COLOR through your monitor? I too would like such a power.

Wait, you wouldn't be assuming that the only people not subscribing to a certain groupthink which shall remain unnamed are white men, would you? That would be pretty sexist and racist, so I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt.

[loafylemon.2156]

It is sad to see that people have been fired but I think the decision was justified. We reap what we sow.

[Ashen.2907]

@Harrik of Avalone.1867 said:

@Toastbrot.9034 said:

@PanBelacqua.9058 said:

@Dyplex.5798 said:I got Path of fire from my brother for my upcoming birthday but after reading the reddit thread and her twitter feed I decided I will return it.I do not support sexism in any shape of forrm, be that against women, men or trans. Please take action anet, this is disgusting behaviour.

Trans people aren't their own gender - trans men are men, trans women are women. If you're referring to people outside the definitions of man or woman, that would be nonbinary.

I don't think sexism against men is possible (given that sexism is based on societal structures enabling it), but that's besides the point.

lmao yes its possibleheres the definition for you incase you forgot:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex

sexism (as any kind of discrimination) requires the existence of a social hierarchy. You can still find attacks against men distasteful but that doesn't make them discriminatory. Also: men can certainly be discriminated against, but not based on gender, but based on class, orientation, ethnicity, etc.

So, if a female hiring manager passes over the most qualified candidate because he is male, discards all resumes from male candidates for the position, sp3cifically ecause they are male, its not discrimination based on gender?

[DJRiful.3749]

@Brother.1504 said:

@xarallei.4279 said:

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@kimeekat.2548 said:I'm disappointed in Arenanet and

really

upset that Peter is gone. Collecting some things I've said elsewhere in the hope that Gaile or someone sees:

Imo Peter was likely fired primarily because a situation like this is an enormous risk for a wrongful termination lawsuit if the punishment is not applied equally to all involved.

This. The rules must be applied equally or not at all. Either no one gets fired or both do. To apply things in an unequal manner leaves you open to future legal claims. They have to protect themselves and any legal counsel would most certainly have recommended terminating both.

Where does it say they were “fired”, not with the company is different. I would wager they were asked to apologize then asked to sign a resignation letter when terms couldn’t be met. This is 2018, not the movies where the cliche boss walks into a crowded room and yells “your fired.” Like who does that.

Most companies would do this so it will keep the drama and shame down to minimum disruption. Who want someone just got fired started slapping with keyboards at other employees?

Oh god, please save those keycaps!

[DaShi.1368]

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

How are you able to identify people's gender and SKIN COLOR through your monitor? I too would like such a power.

Honestly, I don't care what people post here. I'm talking about articles in particular, so I should have excluded the request for comments because, yes, they can't be verified.

[Tolmos.8395]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:Actually, I'm disappointed in ArenaNet...and the vast majority of the GW community as well...this is 2018, we all need to move into the now and start learning to separate a persons freedom of speech on PERSONAL social media from what they say on BUSINESS related social media. This actually extends beyond social media and includes sports personal conduct clauses...what you or anyone does on their own PERSONAL time does not reflect on how well they perform a job. I'm going to be quite unpopular with the following, but all of this really started with the Ray Rice thing(look it up if you don't know about that) and the NFL. Now, before you think I condone any type of abuse against another person you'd be so far from the truth it would make me laugh, but having said that, even though what he did to his girlfriend in an elevator during the off-season was atrocious, I do not think it was anyone's business but his and hers alone. If you're going to hold someone else up as a role model, society has a serious issue, the only role models should be your parents(if you have them of course).

The only way society is going to advance is this way: what you do at work or while representing your employer is directly related to that employer; what you do or say on your own PERSONAL time has nothing to do with your employer and until the rest of the world learns this we're all screwed(that even includes if you reference your employer on your own PERSONAL social media handles). I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can.

Wake up world, this is 2018, not 1984 or 1950 or anyone other year...time to evolve or die out.

If the person, on their own time and personal social media accounts, is actively promoting themself as a company representative then they have decided to erase the line between personal and professional.

Like I said, that's old school thinking, which almost everyone is still doing...either humankind evolves or it dies out, until humankind can learn to separate personal time from employee time...we as a society are screwed. I do not care if you mention in your private personal social media accounts who you work for, those are for your own private thoughts, I'm smart enough to realize they do not reflect the company you work for, but as we've all seen...there is another single person in America that is smart enough to be able to do that. I won't speak for the rest of the world...let me put my thinking into a simple example...I wear a uniform at work, while I'm wearing that uniform I am representing my employer, the minute I take off any part of the uniform that identifies my employer I am no on my PERSONAL time and I should be allowed to say anything I want that isn't illegal...even if completely contradicts my employers public image...that is the state the world needs to be in, separate the individual from the job, they are not the same thing.

Right, but the person who chose to not separate the personal time from the professional was her. She chose to not evolve, as you put it, and suffered the, very unfortunate, consequences.

Apparently you're unable to comprehend what I'm saying...it isn't only the poster that has to do that, it's also the reader...EVERYONE needs to separate personal time from professional time, even if you list your professional associations on your PERSONAL social media...that is what I am saying. Let me put it this way, say you work an 8 - 5 job, what you say during those 8 - 5 hours reflects on your employer...anything you say outside of those hours, unless you're at a function representing your employer are your PERSONAL opinions and have no reflection on your employer....that is how we as a society need to evolve.

There's a very obvious fine line on this limitation though.

I agree with the seperation of work and private life.. I've even said it myself in a previous comment.However the company/employee line can only be seperated by the individual not the company.If the individual chooses to affiliate their private social media with their place of employment then whether they like it or not their work and home lives are no longer seperate on their social media.

I think I can speak for everyone here when I say that none of us think that what JP said on her personal social media in any way reflects Anet as a company.. that would just be crazy.However how can we expect Anet to maintain it's great reputation as an open an welcoming company that values and respects all its customers equally without prejudice when one of their employees is actively abusing the company's customers on a social media account that also happens to be directly affiliated to their company?

There's just no way any company can tolerate that kind of behavior and disrespect from an employee.. on the clock or not, personal media account or not..Public affiliation demands similar responsibilities and an employee that choses to represent their employer in their personal time needs to be held accountable for any and all negative publicity they bring towards the company that employs them through their behavior.

I do not agree with the things JP said but I do support her right to say those things and had she done so on a personal social media account that was not affiliated with Anet Almost none of us would even have known about it in the first place and chances are the original comments that started this mess probably wouldn't have even happened either since the vast majority of her followers are Anet customers and would not be following her in the first place.

Seperation of work and private life is definitely the best way to go we're very much agreed there.However this is and should always be the responsibility of the individual.

Here's were you an I disagree...it should not be the individuals responsibility, it should be the companies responsibility to know the difference...after all, why do so many companies put out notices saying that the comments of so and so do not reflect the beliefs of this company? That tells me that companies already realize people are entitled to their opinions, but I actually do find fault with the other person in this case...and I've read what caused the uproar, that post was not an invitation to open a dialogue...it was a list of the facts stating why ArenaNet is constrained in telling the story they way they do...no where in that post did I see an invitation to offer an alternative or even open up a dialogue about it. I'm not sure how this Derior person is or if they're a native English speaker, but if they aren't then that could've been the problem, not understanding the context of the post, it wasn't an open invitation for discussion...it was more like a dissertation...this is how it is and why.

That's pretty difficult to accomplish when the first thing folks do when they get mad is go straight to a person's employer and try to get them fired. Look at any other person who is ousted over negative comments involving gender, race, religion or nationality. Every time, folks immediately reach out to that person's employer and ask them "Do you condone this?" If the person isn't fired, people start boycotting.

It's become the American way.

[xarallei.4279]

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

Why is it everyone seems to assume anyone who is disgusted with JP's behavior is a white man? I'm a female Latina. Other female players I know are also in support of Deroir and MMOINKS too.

I'm not celebrating the firing of these individuals. Like I've said, this is a sad event and was probably a difficult decision for Anet to make. But still ultimately the right one. This company has always promoted this atmosphere of interaction with the community. To have an employee publicly insult customers goes against the spirit of what this company is supposed to be about.

[mixxed.5862]

I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

Edit:I want to clarify a few points. I'm not arguing it was unwarranted that she was fired. If you look at all the upheaval her tweets caused, how could I? But I certainly don't agree with the people that believe her being fired proved MO's "moral integrity". In fact: Quite the contrary. Business morale shouldn't be mistaken for a social value.My comment is entirely focused on why I'm disappointed with the way so many reacted. It was terrible, not only because she was treated in a openly disrespectful manner (some even were offensive and upvoted for it). To me it seemed like many didn't even give her the benefit of the doubt, that EVERYONE deserves: That she is a decent person as well. Because if you go by that "assumption" reading her comment, it's evident that she tried to call out a comment she obviously perceived as being sexist. I believe that anyone who realized this to then reread Deroir's comment being worded the unfortunate way it was and given the context (her personal twitter page, etc. see above) would have arrived at the conclusion it definitely could be misunderstood as being disrespectful, or even sexist. My comment is focused on illustrating how that misunderstanding came to be.Let's just look at the first two sentences of Deroir's comment! "Really interesting thread to read! ? However, allow me to disagree slightly ." This can easily be misinterpreted as being belittling, especially with that OKAY emoticon and the stars. This sets the stage for his following suggestion.

Do you still believe the massive shitstorm that reddit brought over her was warranted?Then ? But how about you, clever person, allow me to disagree slightly

On a more personal note: If I hadn't known Deroir from his twitch channel and youtube videos as the nice and respectful person that he is, I likely would have misinterpreted his comment as being condescending as well. You are welcome to disagree, yet if you do, does that entitle you to publicly judge my personality?And what if I had assumed this condescending behavior stems from sexism, based on previous experiences I've made. Would you feel free to call me "one of the worst kind of people"? (quote: reddit)

[squallaus.8321]

Just wanted to say that I wouldn't mind seeing Peter Fries return to his post if the only reason for his firing was for his defence of a colleague . A suspension would probably suffice. As he's been with anet for many years now I believe he deserve a second chance.

[DaShi.1368]

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Batel.9206 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

Hi, I'm a woman, and I am glad beyond belief that Price was fired. Price's disgusting, vile behaviour was utterly unacceptable as a representative of ArenaNet. What other articles or comments are you looking for? I'm a tad confused.

Also, what does skin color have to do with anything?

To some people, everything apparently. In their eyes, not everyone deserves a voice to speak with. It's a shame, but luckily people like that are not nearly as numerous as the many people who disapprove of that kind of hate, so it's ok.

Not sure where you're going with this. I just want to hear what other types of people think. Are you really threaten by that?

[Faffin.6741]

@Aethelbert.1497 said:

@Faffin.6741 said:Maybe this was company policy before the event, but it still looks like you're pandering to a bunch of sad puppies.

How curious that your ilk throw insults around all the time.

We see you for the bullies you are.

Just leave this community - it doesn't need you.

Hypocrisy, pseudo-intellectual posturing, and logical fallacy. I think you're the one demonstrating their ilk.

[Tolmos.8395]

@DaShi.1368 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Batel.9206 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

Hi, I'm a woman, and I am glad beyond belief that Price was fired. Price's disgusting, vile behaviour was utterly unacceptable as a representative of ArenaNet. What other articles or comments are you looking for? I'm a tad confused.

Also, what does skin color have to do with anything?

To some people, everything apparently. In their eyes, not everyone deserves a voice to speak with. It's a shame, but luckily people like that are not nearly as numerous as the many people who disapprove of that kind of hate, so it's ok.

Not sure where you're going with this. I just want to hear what other types of people think. Are you really threaten by that?

Nope. I doubt anyone here is threatened by people being hateful on a forum. :)

[gateless gate.8406]

@DaShi.1368 said:

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

How are you able to identify people's gender and SKIN COLOR through your monitor? I too would like such a power.

Honestly, I don't care what people post here. I'm talking about articles in particular, so I should have excluded the request for comments because, yes, they can't be verified.

Hm well to my knowledge there's only 1 article so far, on tentonhammer. If you're looking for non-article commentary, there's plenty of people identifying themselves as women here and on the related Reddit posts declaiming the individual in question.

[xarallei.4279]

Where does it say they were “fired”, not with the company is different. I would wager they were asked to apologize then asked to sign a resignation letter when terms couldn’t be met. This is 2018, not the movies where the cliche boss walks into a crowded room and yells “your fired.” Like who does that.

Forcing someone to resign is pretty much the equivalent of firing.

[DaShi.1368]

There's a few other articles and youtube videos.

I guess my concern is that when John Smith made rude comments to posters on the old forums, he just disappeared from the forums for awhile and only a few people called him out on it (I was one of them). Yet, when a women does it, people call for her head. It's really the reaction that's concerning.

Jesus, there's even a "Save Peter" thread. :/

[Tolmos.8395]

@"xarallei.4279" said:

Where does it say they were “fired”, not with the company is different. I would wager they were asked to apologize then asked to sign a resignation letter when terms couldn’t be met. This is 2018, not the movies where the cliche boss walks into a crowded room and yells “your fired.” Like who does that.

Forcing someone to resign is pretty much the equivalent of firing.

Hmm... if they did resign, shy of a severance package, I'm not sure that would have been the best thing for them to do. If you resign, in most states you will struggle to win the appeal for unemployment. If you are fired, however, you can at least try (though, in this case, its become high enough profile that it would be difficult to hide that it is not "for cause").

Normally, I would say resigning is better than getting fired because it doesn't have the same stigma, but a quick Google search will bring this situation up so... honestly, I don't know which would be the best thing to take? Firing or resigning?

Hope they got a severance package.

[xarallei.4279]

Normally, I would say resigning is better than getting fired because it doesn't have the same stigma, but a quick Google search will bring this situation up so... honestly, I don't know which would be the best thing to take? Firing or resigning?

Hope they got a severance package.

It's bad either way. And yes, even though I disagree with so much of JP's actions I still think both her and Peter deserve severance at the very least. Difficult situation all around.

[squallaus.8321]

@"DaShi.1368" said:There's a few other articles and youtube videos.

I guess my concern is that when John Smith made rude comments to posters on the old forums, he just disappeared from the forums for awhile and only a few people called him out on it (I was one of them). Yet, when a women does it, people call for her head. It's really the reaction that's concerning.

I think it might have more to do with her playing the sexist victim card inappropriately more than her being a female. From her twitter banter with jebro she even thinks the new Avenger movie is sexist. Basically everything is sexist to her and she's always hurt by it.

link: https://twitter.com/JebDan/status/991190913505349633

[Tolmos.8395]

@DaShi.1368 said:There's a few other articles and youtube videos.

I guess my concern is that when John Smith made rude comments to posters on the old forums, he just disappeared from the forums for awhile and only a few people called him out on it (I was one of them). Yet, when a women does it, people call for her head. It's really the reaction that's concerning.

What were his comments? I can't find them, but I'm curious. Mostly I wonder because, in general, derogatory comments about a person based on race, gender, nationality or religion are taken MUCH more seriously than simple rude comments. So unless his was a bigoted comment based one those protected classes, I'd say there's a pretty big distinction beyond him just being a male.

[Todd.6573]

@Brother.1504 said:

@Valkira Laments.8762 said:Is it too early to ask if ArenaNet is hiring again?

Not too early just in extremely bad taste.

No such thing, taste is subjective! ;)

[Azrielvon.7836]

@"mixxed.5862" said:I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

Perceived or true discrimination aside, the way she handled it is wrong, and this are the consequences. End of story. She dug her own grave. At which point was it implied that she was incompetent? Are you saying that man are free from such events? Have you NEVER worked in a professional setting before? Deroir's response was not out of line at all, in fact, I'll even applaud it to be respectful and gentle.

Tell me, which part of Deroir's statements were sexist.

[Zaklex.6308]

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@"Zaklex.6308" said:I understand that, and I'm saying it needs to change and it needs to change now, pronto, yesterday, last year...no one should ever be considered to representing a brand when on personal time, even if you display that brand on your personal social media(which is self-defeating until those "brands" realize this simple fact)...that is what I'm trying to get at. If we here in the United States made it illegal for businesses to use an employees personal social media accounts against them, that would be a big step in opening up the avenues of dissent and discussion on all fronts, but that will never happen because...reasons that would probably get me in trouble.

Companies don't fire staff over social media posts for fun. They do it because it has measurable, quantifiable, real negative effects on their sales. Your desire to "change" this fact would involve re-writing the human brain so that people don't associate bad employee with bad company. If that's something you want to pursue, I wish you luck in your future PhDs in neuroscience, psychology, biomedicine, and biotechnology.

Actually I disagree, it's more because we as human beings don't know the difference between personal and professional, and businesses do not have the cajones to tell customers the difference between an employees personal and professional opinions...that's the problem. This also has nothing to do with biomedicine and biotechnology...but it does have a lot to do with psychology. It also made me look at how I see our current President, whom I don't like as a person and I don't like the job he's doing...but I do like how he speaks his mind and doesn't care what others think...however, I'd be worse than he is and I do not do political correctness and I do not care if I offend people, if I offend someone it's because they take things to personally. I can't be offended, by anything, because I don't care what anyone else says or thinks, they don't define me, I define me and who I am.

[Leo G.4501]

@mixxed.5862 said:I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

Not everyone. Some that did not condone her behavior but still wanted her to continue working on GW2 (to include myself) would have preferred to have her humbled in some way. Having her fired doesn't help me nor does it give me the opportunity to contest her views. Basically she's an ignorant person who will remain ignorant in her ignorant echo chamber.

@mixxed.5862 said:She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:

Obviously? I mean, I know how she perceived it but I debate extreme feminists and white knights frequently in my circles. How could any normal person see she was obviously being treated in a sexist way?

She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it.

Because she made a broad assumption that was wrong. It happens. Also consider, the person she commented to likely consumed many times more hours of MMO content than she does (because apparently JP didn't know SWTOR existed).

@mixxed.5862 said:Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional.

Unless you condone unprofessionalism, then it's only understandable that she received the consequences for it, yes?

[DaShi.1368]

@squallaus.8321 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:There's a few other articles and youtube videos.

I guess my concern is that when John Smith made rude comments to posters on the old forums, he just disappeared from the forums for awhile and only a few people called him out on it (I was one of them). Yet, when a women does it, people call for her head. It's really the reaction that's concerning.

I think it might have more to do with her playing the sexist victim card inappropriately more than her being a female. From her twitter banter with jebro she even thinks the new Avenger movie is sexist. Basically everything is sexist to her and she's always hurt by it.

Maybe she is hurt by it. There's a lot of sexism in the world that women have to deal with everyday. Some days it might be one big sexist thing, another a million little ones. Regardless, it takes it toll. And it's not wrong to point out sexism or to ask people to be less sexist.

[Teratus.2859]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:Actually, I'm disappointed in ArenaNet...and the vast majority of the GW community as well...this is 2018, we all need to move into the now and start learning to separate a persons freedom of speech on PERSONAL social media from what they say on BUSINESS related social media. This actually extends beyond social media and includes sports personal conduct clauses...what you or anyone does on their own PERSONAL time does not reflect on how well they perform a job. I'm going to be quite unpopular with the following, but all of this really started with the Ray Rice thing(look it up if you don't know about that) and the NFL. Now, before you think I condone any type of abuse against another person you'd be so far from the truth it would make me laugh, but having said that, even though what he did to his girlfriend in an elevator during the off-season was atrocious, I do not think it was anyone's business but his and hers alone. If you're going to hold someone else up as a role model, society has a serious issue, the only role models should be your parents(if you have them of course).

The only way society is going to advance is this way: what you do at work or while representing your employer is directly related to that employer; what you do or say on your own PERSONAL time has nothing to do with your employer and until the rest of the world learns this we're all screwed(that even includes if you reference your employer on your own PERSONAL social media handles). I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can.

Wake up world, this is 2018, not 1984 or 1950 or anyone other year...time to evolve or die out.

If the person, on their own time and personal social media accounts, is actively promoting themself as a company representative then they have decided to erase the line between personal and professional.

Like I said, that's old school thinking, which almost everyone is still doing...either humankind evolves or it dies out, until humankind can learn to separate personal time from employee time...we as a society are screwed. I do not care if you mention in your private personal social media accounts who you work for, those are for your own private thoughts, I'm smart enough to realize they do not reflect the company you work for, but as we've all seen...there is another single person in America that is smart enough to be able to do that. I won't speak for the rest of the world...let me put my thinking into a simple example...I wear a uniform at work, while I'm wearing that uniform I am representing my employer, the minute I take off any part of the uniform that identifies my employer I am no on my PERSONAL time and I should be allowed to say anything I want that isn't illegal...even if completely contradicts my employers public image...that is the state the world needs to be in, separate the individual from the job, they are not the same thing.

Right, but the person who chose to not separate the personal time from the professional was her. She chose to not evolve, as you put it, and suffered the, very unfortunate, consequences.

Apparently you're unable to comprehend what I'm saying...it isn't only the poster that has to do that, it's also the reader...EVERYONE needs to separate personal time from professional time, even if you list your professional associations on your PERSONAL social media...that is what I am saying. Let me put it this way, say you work an 8 - 5 job, what you say during those 8 - 5 hours reflects on your employer...anything you say outside of those hours, unless you're at a function representing your employer are your PERSONAL opinions and have no reflection on your employer....that is how we as a society need to evolve.

There's a very obvious fine line on this limitation though.

I agree with the seperation of work and private life.. I've even said it myself in a previous comment.However the company/employee line can only be seperated by the individual not the company.If the individual chooses to affiliate their private social media with their place of employment then whether they like it or not their work and home lives are no longer seperate on their social media.

I think I can speak for everyone here when I say that none of us think that what JP said on her personal social media in any way reflects Anet as a company.. that would just be crazy.However how can we expect Anet to maintain it's great reputation as an open an welcoming company that values and respects all its customers equally without prejudice when one of their employees is actively abusing the company's customers on a social media account that also happens to be directly affiliated to their company?

There's just no way any company can tolerate that kind of behavior and disrespect from an employee.. on the clock or not, personal media account or not..Public affiliation demands similar responsibilities and an employee that choses to represent their employer in their personal time needs to be held accountable for any and all negative publicity they bring towards the company that employs them through their behavior.

I do not agree with the things JP said but I do support her right to say those things and had she done so on a personal social media account that was not affiliated with Anet Almost none of us would even have known about it in the first place and chances are the original comments that started this mess probably wouldn't have even happened either since the vast majority of her followers are Anet customers and would not be following her in the first place.

Seperation of work and private life is definitely the best way to go we're very much agreed there.However this is and should always be the responsibility of the individual.

Here's were you an I disagree...it should not be the individuals responsibility, it should be the companies responsibility to know the difference...after all, why do so many companies put out notices saying that the comments of so and so do not reflect the beliefs of this company? That tells me that companies already realize people are entitled to their opinions, but I actually do find fault with the other person in this case...and I've read what caused the uproar, that post was not an invitation to open a dialogue...it was a list of the facts stating why ArenaNet is constrained in telling the story they way they do...no where in that post did I see an invitation to offer an alternative or even open up a dialogue about it. I'm not sure how this Derior person is or if they're a native English speaker, but if they aren't then that could've been the problem, not understanding the context of the post, it wasn't an open invitation for discussion...it was more like a dissertation...this is how it is and why.

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:Actually, I'm disappointed in ArenaNet...and the vast majority of the GW community as well...this is 2018, we all need to move into the now and start learning to separate a persons freedom of speech on PERSONAL social media from what they say on BUSINESS related social media. This actually extends beyond social media and includes sports personal conduct clauses...what you or anyone does on their own PERSONAL time does not reflect on how well they perform a job. I'm going to be quite unpopular with the following, but all of this really started with the Ray Rice thing(look it up if you don't know about that) and the NFL. Now, before you think I condone any type of abuse against another person you'd be so far from the truth it would make me laugh, but having said that, even though what he did to his girlfriend in an elevator during the off-season was atrocious, I do not think it was anyone's business but his and hers alone. If you're going to hold someone else up as a role model, society has a serious issue, the only role models should be your parents(if you have them of course).

The only way society is going to advance is this way: what you do at work or while representing your employer is directly related to that employer; what you do or say on your own PERSONAL time has nothing to do with your employer and until the rest of the world learns this we're all screwed(that even includes if you reference your employer on your own PERSONAL social media handles). I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can.

Wake up world, this is 2018, not 1984 or 1950 or anyone other year...time to evolve or die out.

If the person, on their own time and personal social media accounts, is actively promoting themself as a company representative then they have decided to erase the line between personal and professional.

Like I said, that's old school thinking, which almost everyone is still doing...either humankind evolves or it dies out, until humankind can learn to separate personal time from employee time...we as a society are screwed. I do not care if you mention in your private personal social media accounts who you work for, those are for your own private thoughts, I'm smart enough to realize they do not reflect the company you work for, but as we've all seen...there is another single person in America that is smart enough to be able to do that. I won't speak for the rest of the world...let me put my thinking into a simple example...I wear a uniform at work, while I'm wearing that uniform I am representing my employer, the minute I take off any part of the uniform that identifies my employer I am no on my PERSONAL time and I should be allowed to say anything I want that isn't illegal...even if completely contradicts my employers public image...that is the state the world needs to be in, separate the individual from the job, they are not the same thing.

Right, but the person who chose to not separate the personal time from the professional was her. She chose to not evolve, as you put it, and suffered the, very unfortunate, consequences.

Apparently you're unable to comprehend what I'm saying...it isn't only the poster that has to do that, it's also the reader...EVERYONE needs to separate personal time from professional time, even if you list your professional associations on your PERSONAL social media...that is what I am saying. Let me put it this way, say you work an 8 - 5 job, what you say during those 8 - 5 hours reflects on your employer...anything you say outside of those hours, unless you're at a function representing your employer are your PERSONAL opinions and have no reflection on your employer....that is how we as a society need to evolve.

There's a very obvious fine line on this limitation though.

I agree with the seperation of work and private life.. I've even said it myself in a previous comment.However the company/employee line can only be seperated by the individual not the company.If the individual chooses to affiliate their private social media with their place of employment then whether they like it or not their work and home lives are no longer seperate on their social media.

I think I can speak for everyone here when I say that none of us think that what JP said on her personal social media in any way reflects Anet as a company.. that would just be crazy.However how can we expect Anet to maintain it's great reputation as an open an welcoming company that values and respects all its customers equally without prejudice when one of their employees is actively abusing the company's customers on a social media account that also happens to be directly affiliated to their company?

There's just no way any company can tolerate that kind of behavior and disrespect from an employee.. on the clock or not, personal media account or not..Public affiliation demands similar responsibilities and an employee that choses to represent their employer in their personal time needs to be held accountable for any and all negative publicity they bring towards the company that employs them through their behavior.

I do not agree with the things JP said but I do support her right to say those things and had she done so on a personal social media account that was not affiliated with Anet Almost none of us would even have known about it in the first place and chances are the original comments that started this mess probably wouldn't have even happened either since the vast majority of her followers are Anet customers and would not be following her in the first place.

Seperation of work and private life is definitely the best way to go we're very much agreed there.However this is and should always be the responsibility of the individual.

Here's were you an I disagree...it should not be the individuals responsibility, it should be the companies responsibility to know the difference...after all, why do so many companies put out notices saying that the comments of so and so do not reflect the beliefs of this company? That tells me that companies already realize people are entitled to their opinions, but I actually do find fault with the other person in this case...and I've read what caused the uproar, that post was not an invitation to open a dialogue...it was a list of the facts stating why ArenaNet is constrained in telling the story they way they do...no where in that post did I see an invitation to offer an alternative or even open up a dialogue about it. I'm not sure how this Derior person is or if they're a native English speaker, but if they aren't then that could've been the problem, not understanding the context of the post, it wasn't an open invitation for discussion...it was more like a dissertation...this is how it is and why.

I'm pretty sure it's a simple legal protection.. to avoid the sillyness of a whole company being penalized (probably financially) for the actions of an individual.Reputation however is a whole different story but one that can easily be equally destructive to a company should it gain a bad public image.

I think we can all agree that nobody holds Anet accountable for anything JP said however when reputation comes into play her behavior does reflect poorly on Anet because of her public affiliation to them as her employer.. this is exactly why companies have these social media rules in the first place.

I read her original post as well and yeah I actually agreed with a great deal of it as well.. it was a really good read and I even agreed with some of Derior's reply as well.None of that is really the focus of this mess though.. the behavior that came after is.I agree that the post was not an invitation to an open dialogue and I don't think anyone would really argue that it was, however I would say that is an irrelevant point overall as it was posted on a public social media account.. one that's directly affiliated to Anet as a company and one that had thousands of followers who also happen to be customers of the company that the owner of said account worked for.

It goes without saying that people are without doubt going to reply to said post with their own opinions, suggestions and criticizms to the subject matter whether anyone want's to hear them or not.. that's just the very nature of social media.With the subject matter and the account both affiliated to the owners place of employment there is just no way the account holder can not be held responsible for anything they said afterwards that brings any negativity towards the company's public image.If for example you were on a drunken night out decide to say something insulting or hurtful as a joke to a random passer by, then days later that same person walks into your place of work with a few friends, recognizes you then instantly walks back out the door with his friends. Does that not make you responsible for your company loosing those customers?

I think it's far to easy to say it should be the companies responsibility.. both them and we for the most part know that it's not and would gladly prefer to avoid these situations entirely if and when possible.But once a PR mess like this comes along and drags a companies reputation into the crosshairs it unfortunately forces hands.