Zerker Soulbeast meta not an issue for anyone in wvw?

[bq pd.2148]

@geist.9173 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:i dont get why as a necro you care about deadeye elite, thats the least of your problems. why would a deadeye even need stealth against a necro? certainly not for the invisibility, only for traits like hidden killer and to gain access to stealth attacks but invisibility is far from needed against a necro.

your necro can perfectly compete in WvW with any thief or mesmer or ranger but not in the role of a roamer, yet overall you are much more needed as in any groupfight with babysitters from smallscale to largescale your boonhate is superb.i still dont understand why for fractals , raiding, spvp people play builds that are needed for the roles they want to fill, yet when it comes to WvW people solo roam on a necro and zerg on a scepter ele. why do people in WvW think it is like OW 'everything works'. i mean it does to some extent if you run into the right opponents, but you cant expect to compete with builds that are more optimal for the role you want to fill.

Ok, let's put it that way. Thieves are great in pve and rated pvp, so we make them completely useless in wvw. You may have forgotten that we play an mmorpg here, where classes should be balanced for all the game modes. As you said, this isn't OW. Skill should be a factor as there should be counter classes. There is nothing that really counters deadeye at the moment, but most of the classes counter necro.

If a class completely sucks in a game mode while others are unbalanced we should talk about balancing. If I don't play Necro in roaming it doesn't change the sad state of class balancing at all. Take necros out of the equation and still thieves need a heavy rework, mesmer still deals way to much burst damage, spellbreaker is still to strong and rangers still hit to high.I don't know why people think it's okay that certain parts of the game are kitten in terms of balancing. Maybe they need that to get this feeling of winning, because with their class in line with others that gets a lot harder.

now now, you confuse something here.i said necro can compete with thieves and mesmers and the like in WvW, that is one mode. just in a different role.in PvE for example my thief is good, as a DPS but you wont use it as healer.a game will allways be mainly balanced around the mode. in WvW you dont win by killing a single opponent. you win by victory points. for this you need both solo roamers and groups or different size for an optimal result. for balancing every profession has to be usefull in some role in WvW. but not every profession will be able to fill every role as long as there are different professions.

[RangerThings.9810]

The counter argument from SBs is that reflects one shot them? ?

[Turk.5460]

@RangerThings.9810 said:The counter argument from SBs is that reflects one shot them? ?

Can't reflect unblockables.

[Turk.5460]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"geist.9173" said:There is nothing that really counters deadeye at the moment, but most of the classes counter necro.Except condi which coincidentally the necro brings by the boatloads because its the best in the game for it...

I find your argument kind of odd.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"geist.9173" said:There is nothing that really counters deadeye at the moment, but most of the classes counter necro.Except condi which coincidentally the necro brings by the boatloads because its the best in the game for it...

I find your argument kind of odd.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace

hey turk dont give away trade secrets!many condi mesmers thinking they are in a good position against deadeye is the only reason they dont run away, wich they could as tanky and fast as they are.

[bigo.9037]

@Alehin.3746 said:Soulbeast is fine in WvW. Rangers had nothing going on for them in WvW since forever and they're not that great, nerfing them isn't really necessary imo.

@"Artaz.3819" said:Meta Soulbeast gets the jump on a Mirage. Alpha macro scripts, enter Beastmode (procs Zephyr's Speed for Quickness and Unstoppable Union for

Unblockable

+ plus a host of bonus traits) grrr, insta-cast Sick'Em (rawr) followed by Point Blank Shot and then Rapid Fire opener (a 2s huge burst from long range!).

Meta Mirage targets Soulbeast, insta casts Illusionary Ambush as reaction (+ has Evasive Mirror traited - standard in every build), gains

Reflect for 2s and still gets hit by the Point Blank Shot (shot traveling to Mirage) plus full Rapid Fire

, SB loses target/looks like cloak due to lag from IA, Mirage then does Soulbeast critical hit glass cannon damage plus adds any additional crit damage bonuses (i.e. GM Superiority Complex) back to Soulbeast while hard CC'd.

Soulbeast is downed before full Rapid Fire completes. Mirage laughs. Mirage feels bad stomping.

^^ Not anecdotal, I can't even imagine being on the Soulbeast's end of that "fight". Good thing I was on Invisible so I couldn't be messaged.

this is 100% real and it happened

Soulbeast is broken but not for the reasons people think. The sustain is what is broken. I havent lost to a mirage that didnt 1up me and kill me in 1 hit out of stealth for months now. The last time i lost to a mirage it was simply because he was better than me but i have gotten even better since i dueled him at the time.( Altho the sustain is only a problem if you build for it and most people only build for "Dmg lulz" )

[coro.3176]

7-9k autoattacks are broken.25k-40k quicknessunblockable rapid fires are broken.1 million damage worldly impact (or whatever the damage multipliers let you get to...) is broken.1800+ range is broken.

[bigo.9037]

@coro.3176 said:7-9k autoattacks are broken.25k-40k quicknessunblockable rapid fires are broken.1 million damage worldly impact (or whatever the damage multipliers let you get to...) is broken.1800+ range is broken.

how much armor do you have? get some protection...Sure i have protection most of the time but i still dont get hit THAT hard lol wtf.

I still would like to see some screenshots of people hitting more than 6k on a player in wvw with AA... not that i dont believe it i just really want to see it.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

It's funny because this thread is made in WvW and people are complaining in WvW about either being singled out by a Soulbeast or killed by a roaming Soulbeast. Yes you can roam in WvW but that isn't primarily what's going on. People run in groups, often large groups where consequently group and large group fights take place, this is where the Soulbeast can fail miserably with most people. If this thread was made in the PvP forum, then sure people may have a case; however, there are other classes out there cough mesmer cough that people should be singling out and only singling out until they are brought back in line.

In WvW in an actual group fight, people instantly change their tune when their zerk soulbeast long range shot crits heavy toughness targets for 800-1000, and a rapid fire they'd be lucky to crack 3000 with. Couple that with the ungodly amount of blocks and reflects going on which last entire fights. Revs do more damage with their auto-attack than rapid fire does, as does ele's.

To say that Soulbeasts do too much damage in WvW is laughable, they simply don't do enough, not to be of any use in WvW for other than harassing necros. It's more of a case of toughness and armor being too strong, as is, there simply is too many blocks and reflects circulating in WvW. Instead of crapping on Soulbeasts in WvW, crap on them in the PvP forum instead and maybe they can get reasonable changes there. In WvW it seems at minimum to be of any use they'd need permanent unblockable up-time and a 25% damage boost so as to at least be able to provide enough dps to supplement their lack of support.

[bq pd.2148]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:It's funny because this thread is made in WvW and people are complaining in WvW about either being singled out by a Soulbeast or killed by a roaming Soulbeast. Yes you can roam in WvW but that isn't primarily what's going on. People run in groups, often large groups where consequently group and large group fights take place, this is where the Soulbeast can fail miserably with most people. If this thread was made in the PvP forum, then sure people may have a case; however, there are other classes out there cough mesmer cough that people should be singling out and only singling out until they are brought back in line.

In WvW in an actual group fight, people instantly change their tune when their zerk soulbeast long range shot crits heavy toughness targets for 800-1000, and a rapid fire they'd be lucky to crack 3000 with. Couple that with the ungodly amount of blocks and reflects going on which last entire fights. Revs do more damage with their auto-attack than rapid fire does, as does ele's.

To say that Soulbeasts do too much damage in WvW is laughable, they simply don't do enough, not to be of any use in WvW for other than harassing necros. It's more of a case of toughness and armor being too strong, as is, there simply is too many blocks and reflects circulating in WvW. Instead of crapping on Soulbeasts in WvW, crap on them in the PvP forum instead and maybe they can get reasonable changes there. In WvW it seems at minimum to be of any use they'd need permanent unblockable up-time and a 25% damage boost so as to at least be able to provide enough dps to supplement their lack of support.

thats the same for most complains in WvW, people think every profession has to be in balance for any type of encounter, no matter the size or the envoirement. because in a team game it cant possibly be that each profession can only fill some roles. either for group fights range AoE DPS/Corrupt , supporter in group fights or solo roamer. every profession has issues to build for at least one of those roles. but each can build for at least one of those roles to do decent.

[Dawdler.8521]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"geist.9173" said:There is nothing that really counters deadeye at the moment, but most of the classes counter necro.Except condi which coincidentally the necro brings by the boatloads because its the best in the game for it...

I find your argument kind of odd.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace

hey turk dont give away trade secrets!many condi mesmers thinking they are in a good position against deadeye is the only reason they dont run away, wich they could as tanky and fast as they are.

No one was talking about condi mesmers and their comparably weak condis. The one I quoted was talking about necro, who can condi nuke a thief before those 3s even kick in.

[bq pd.2148]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"geist.9173" said:There is nothing that really counters deadeye at the moment, but most of the classes counter necro.Except condi which coincidentally the necro brings by the boatloads because its the best in the game for it...

I find your argument kind of odd.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace

hey turk dont give away trade secrets!many condi mesmers thinking they are in a good position against deadeye is the only reason they dont run away, wich they could as tanky and fast as they are.

No one was talking about condi mesmers and their comparably weak condis. The one I quoted was talking about necro, who can condi nuke a thief before those 3s even kick in.

if you say so..

necros dont even get a chance to apply their condis and they ony have more cover conditions not many strong damage conditions. the first condi remove i feel is mostly on inital entering stealth and not after 3s.

[b ranger b.9348]

@coro.3176 said:7-9k autoattacks are broken.25k-40k quicknessunblockable rapid fires are broken.1 million damage worldly impact (or whatever the damage multipliers let you get to...) is broken.1800+ range is broken.

i would like to see these screens my self of 8k autos that are not npc or a downed player, i play full zerker with scholar runes and never see those kind of numbers unless it is a npc or a downed paper player. like some one else above was saying go play a sb and u wont get any damage through in a large scale fight because of perma bubbles and reflects. with 3400 plus power i some times dont even see 1k at max range hitting a fb pretty hilarious

[ganefte.6723]

@Dawdler.8521 said:No one was talking about condi mesmers and their comparably weak condis. The one I quoted was talking about necro, who can condi nuke a thief before those 3s even kick in.

You won't. You can't apply condis on a dead eye. The time you see him he is most likely gone and the condis on him - if you managed to put some up, are gone too. If you are a scourge and lucky, you may hit him with your shade and are fast enough to unleash the scourge stuff. If the deadeye isn't stupid your shade is wasted and the game starts anew with 1:0 for the deadeye.

[ganefte.6723]

Not auto hit, but on ~1900 Toughness

It's so fun. And yes, many classes can do this, and it's still stupid hitting that high on non glass cannons.

[Turk.5460]

@geist.9173 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:No one was talking about condi mesmers and their comparably weak condis. The one I quoted was talking about necro, who can condi nuke a thief before those 3s even kick in.

You won't. You can't apply condis on a dead eye. The time you see him he is most likely gone and the condis on him - if you managed to put some up, are gone too. If you are a scourge and lucky, you may hit him with your shade and are fast enough to unleash the scourge stuff. If the deadeye isn't stupid your shade is wasted and the game starts anew with 1:0 for the deadeye.

Also Rifle DE pretty much hard-counters any form of Necro - regardless of if the DE is a playing a stealth-oriented build or not. Death's Retreat is enough to kite+condi clear for days. Necro's kit just isn't setup to deal with that much backwards/kite mobility.

[ganefte.6723]

The only thing coming to my mind which could be fatal to DE is power reaper, but I really think with the lack of reveal (and DE anti-reveal) isn't favoring necro either. But at least reaper has auto-attacks that can hit stealthed targets

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Turk.5460 said:

@RangerThings.9810 said:The counter argument from SBs is that reflects one shot them? ?

Can't reflect unblockables.

Really? Go try it. I have. The other player still takes damage, but the projectile is reflected back to the ranger, even if unblockable is up (from either Call of the Wild or merging with pet).

@ the OP, please link your posts about Mirage and Deadeye, because if your #1 issue with roaming in WvW is the Soulbeast, you aren't paying attention.

[SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.70]

@"ChartFish.1308" said:

Thats kinda why necroes are on the low end of the dmg spectrum. Because your class mechanic is literally another HP pool, a free 'extra life', a free of charge damage tank. You have to sacrifice nothing to get that extra 18k "hp", it's just there. It's your class mechanic. You can build yourself as crazy glassy as you want, you'll still have that 18k hp waiting for you. Its not your fault as a necro, it's just class design.

Other classes need ways to sustain too. Some are mobile, some negate damage, some keep you from applying damage. It's what makes each class different, how they approach survivability and sustain. Guardians block, thieves evade, warriors negate. But nothing is endless. Not even a acrobatics trickery d/d daredevil can keep dodging forever.

So necros sacrifice nothing for their "free" 18k HP? Except for any form of active defense, any form of decent mobility skill, any hard to avoid hard hitting skill and decent sustain options. I honestly believe that shroud is the worst "defensive" option in the game, by far, when necro was strongest it was with an elite spec which removed shroud, go figure. Comparing it to the defenses of a warrior (Double Endure Pain, Passive Balanced Stance, Berserker Stance, Full Counter, Adrenal Health, Healing Signet, 3 Sec Block, good mobility, skills that evade, access to vigor and stronger CC) or thief (Stealth, highest mobility, stunbreaks for days, range (Deadeye) or even more insane evade uptime (daredevil)) comes off as incredibly strange, given just how bad the necro defenses are, the strongest "active defense" you could have as a Necromancer would be Spectral Armor>Shroud>Shroud 3 for Stab, even that isn't as strong defensively as the passive Adrenal Health from warrior, and that's using 2 active skills with rather long cooldowns and 1 offensive/defensive skill which you need to hit people to recharge afterwards (which is a problem because everyone can just outkite you effortlessly). Should you somehow gain the upper hand on anyone in a 1v1 only the worst of players cant simply put on swiftness and walk away from you, that's how slow you are, I've had fights where thieves (either spec) reset on my 10+ times, you can say that each time they need to reset is a win, but at the end of the day I am the one that's dead when they finally manage to kill me, either cause I get so bored by the constant resetting that I can't focus anymore or cause they manage to finally stop failing and actually line up their burst for the instagib. Every single fight I have in a group setting of 2-4 (generally fighting outnumbered) we focus the necromancers, because their "awesome defensive" is actually really bad, it always ends the same way, with the necromancer being stunned/rooted/whatever while desperately trying to get away but failing because they're so slow and have so bad access to defensives/stab.

The difference between playing power reaper (imo currently the most "viable" necro build in anything but a zerg) and playing basically any other class is so mindbogglingly big that it seems to me as if you've never played the class (I can more successfully 1vX (or similar) on spellbreaker which I've played a total of 15 hours or so now (played a bit of Power Berserker back when that was a thing, but not much) compared to my Necromancer which I've played 3k+ hours in WvW roaming and since HoT (as Condi Scourge, Condi Reaper and Power Reaper). What use is 18k hp when skills frequently hit for 10k+ (and that's not even taking the extreme ones), which you can't dodge all of because you have 0 access to vigor, no skills that give you invuln or similar, no good mobility skills (Flesh Wurm and Spectral Walk suck) or people can just use their decent mobility skills to move away from you as your shroud decays (because you have no way of ever catching anything but another necro). The class always was kinda sketchy for roaming, the current state is beyond silly, anything I can do on my reaper I can do better on my spellbreaker, including but not limited to Damage, CC, Defenses, Mobility and Boon Removal. Can I play reaper relatively successfully? Yes because I am very experienced with the class. Would I do far better on the vast majority of other classes which I have played far less and is a lot worse at, yes.

When it comes to counterplay, there's nothing easier than counterplaying a Necromancer, everyone can outmobility them (except maybe firebrands). Every single hard hitting skill is telegraphed, often excessively so and has 1 sec+ cast time. Their "defense" is literally countered by walking away and waiting. If anyone has a problem with necromancer (without a babysitter) in smallscale anything, then they're a poor player.

Currently the only place where necromancer is actually "good" is in a zerg as some kinda power/hybrid scourge, that is only because of the 10 target cap and the double duty nature of all their skills, their damage is beyond pathetic and they wouldn't work at all if it wasn't due zerging and 10 target cap and relative ease of use (in a zerg anything is easy, but necro in zerg is basically faceroll (like all other classes in a zerg, but even slightly more so as all your skills are "good" both defensively and offensively)).

[coro.3176]

This is really old, and I'm playing mostly zerker stats here with a few Pvt pieces. I don't have any recent screenshots available because I'm away from my computer, but you get the idea. I assure you, I still take 7k autoattacks on my full Dire condi gear.

And before you all jump on me for not paying attention. I know, I know. This video was just to show the burst potential. Keep in mind, you can do this at 1800+ range. See 2nd example in the vid.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"coro.3176" said:

This is really old, and I'm playing mostly zerker stats here with a few Pvt pieces. I don't have any recent screenshots available because I'm away from my computer, but you get the idea. I assure you, I still take 7k autoattacks on my full Dire condi gear.

And before you all jump on me for not paying attention. I know, I know. This video was just to show the burst potential. Keep in mind, you can do this at 1800+ range. See 2nd example in the vid.

But none of those were autoattacks.

The first opener was the knockback followed by rapid fire.

Second was rapid fire opening with 2ish k hits after.

I don't see the 7k auto attacks even with it being on your zerk toon?

[coro.3176]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"coro.3176" said:

This is really old, and I'm playing mostly zerker stats here with a few Pvt pieces. I don't have any recent screenshots available because I'm away from my computer, but you get the idea. I assure you, I still take 7k autoattacks on my full Dire condi gear.

And before you all jump on me for not paying attention. I know, I know. This video was just to show the burst potential. Keep in mind, you can do this at 1800+ range. See 2nd example in the vid.

But none of those were autoattacks.

The first opener was the knockback followed by rapid fire.

Second was rapid fire opening with 2ish k hits after.

I don't see the 7k auto attacks even with it being on your zerk toon?

Ugh. Do I have to go find a literal long range shot? In the video, we clearly see Point Blank Shot hit for over 6k.

PBS does 308 (0.8) damage.LRS does 347 (0.9) damage

If PBS does 6k+ Long Range Shot would be doing somewhat more, since it does more damage and has better power scaling.

Q.E.D.?

[Shadowcat.2680]

@"coro.3176" said:

This is really old, and I'm playing mostly zerker stats here with a few Pvt pieces. I don't have any recent screenshots available because I'm away from my computer, but you get the idea. I assure you, I still take 7k autoattacks on my full Dire condi gear.

And before you all jump on me for not paying attention. I know, I know. This video was just to show the burst potential. Keep in mind, you can do this at 1800+ range. See 2nd example in the vid.

You can't just run away in a straight line from a zerker ranger using longbow and expect it to end well. In the second example, it would've served you better to go toward the cliff the soulbeast is on. LOS someone perched on a cliff and they won't be able to hit you with anything but a barrage you could easily hug the cliff to walk out of. Pay attention to your bar also. The soulbeast used Sic 'Em before firing in both fights. Getting revealed when you weren't stealthed is a good indication that an enemy used a reveal skill on you.

Also, consider the possibility that you're running a subpar build for solo roaming. You don't have a single stunbreak on your bar in the vid, making it so you couldn't get up from the PBS and had to eat the rapid fire.

[coro.3176]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@"coro.3176" said:

This is really old, and I'm playing mostly zerker stats here with a few Pvt pieces. I don't have any recent screenshots available because I'm away from my computer, but you get the idea. I assure you, I still take 7k autoattacks on my full Dire condi gear.

And before you all jump on me for not paying attention. I know, I know. This video was just to show the burst potential. Keep in mind, you can do this at 1800+ range. See 2nd example in the vid.

You can't just run away in a straight line from a zerker ranger using longbow and expect it to end well. In the second example, it would've served you better to go toward the cliff the soulbeast is on. LOS someone perched on a cliff and they won't be able to hit you with anything but a barrage you could easily hug the cliff to walk out of. Pay attention to your bar also. The soulbeast used Sic 'Em before firing in both fights. Getting revealed when you weren't stealthed is a good indication that an enemy used a reveal skill on you.

Also, consider the possibility that you're running a subpar build for solo roaming. You don't have a single stunbreak on your bar in the vid, making it so you couldn't get up from the PBS and had to eat the rapid fire.

Normally I wouldn't, but the SB was SO GODDAMN FAR AWAY I figured I could out-range longbow. Unfortunately, due to the bug where it actually shoots over 2000 range in some situations, it just kept hitting me. In the second engagement, the soulbeast is already at ~1500 range and yet the attacks just keep hitting even after gaining probably 900 units of distance..

Anyway, like I said, I wasn't really paying attention in those clips, but the purpose was to give an example of the damage numbers possible, not counterplay examples.

[Gav.1425]

what if.. you used reflects and dodge rolls?