Sovereign.1093 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 they a pain to deal with, there is always that one who wants to snipe you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 @ChartFish.1308 said:@coro.3176 said:IMO, a reasonable maximum damage output on Long Range Shot might be something like 3k-5k depending on armour. A reasonable total damage output for Rapid Fire might be around 15-20k if all shots hit. The problem right now is it can basically be double those values.Personally I always hit ~2k (1.6k is normal crit tbh), reaching only 3-4k when under sic 'em and other modifiers. Seeing so many people complain that theyre hit with 9k LRS just makes me wonder what kind of ungodly squishy build the ranger is using to manage that.Exactly this, the only time I hit high numbers with any Ranger attack is using Whirling defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 @ChartFish.1308 said:@Aeolus.3615 said:@"Zero.3871" said:only Problem with ranger is its bug range of 1800. anet should fix it to the intended 1500 range.I think that range is OK, but needs to be more normalized like bow and arcs worked on Gw1, LB can actually reach arround 3k range :) and unblockables, and u wont see the arrow due distance, only when it hits theres the hit animation.Like i tend to say and alot, game lacks mechanics in favor of dumb gimmicks for very bad players think they are excelent players...3k is a bit of a stretch. I've tested out max range myself, and it does not reach that far. On flat ground its just, just under 2k, on elevated ground tip toes with 2kIt felt more towards 3k than 2k, and only the hitting animation was triggering on my toon, picture was after health instantly went down to almost zero, lucky i had good reflexes hitting rev heal, after than was manage damage and sustain until where i stop taking damage, i propably move some 400- 600units behind after take that damage.IMO range it is ok, burst imo needs to be slightly reduced since was very very fast(lucky im used to very very fast games) and the bugs of only showing damage hitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknocks.4935 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 @Aeolus.3615 said:@ChartFish.1308 said:@Aeolus.3615 said:@"Zero.3871" said:only Problem with ranger is its bug range of 1800. anet should fix it to the intended 1500 range.I think that range is OK, but needs to be more normalized like bow and arcs worked on Gw1, LB can actually reach arround 3k range :) and unblockables, and u wont see the arrow due distance, only when it hits theres the hit animation.Like i tend to say and alot, game lacks mechanics in favor of dumb gimmicks for very bad players think they are excelent players...3k is a bit of a stretch. I've tested out max range myself, and it does not reach that far. On flat ground its just, just under 2k, on elevated ground tip toes with 2kIt felt more towards 3k than 2k, and only the hitting animation was triggering on my toon, picture was after health instantly went down to almost zero, lucky i had good reflexes hitting rev heal, after than was manage damage and sustain until where i stop taking damage, i propably move some 400- 600units behind after take that damage.IMO range it is ok, burst imo needs to be slightly reduced since was very very fast(lucky im used to very very fast games) and the bugs of only showing damage hitting.Yeah, pretty much this.The stupid thing is how easy is to pull off this damage, 2 or 3 skills in sequence for a potential one shot or close to one shot damage from 1500(+) range.Not to mention soulbeast damage at melee is even higher than a full zerk warrior, plus they have range ad stealth and a pet. But yeah people is mad only at warriors who are 10 times easier to counter, predict and kite.I don't see where is the skill on going stealth, immobilize a target without any warning, popping unblockables plus longbow2.If you have good reflexes you survive, but the fight is already compromised for you and it's too hard to have a come back unless you are in a good terrain zone full of obstacles. In open space it's just gg and there is nothing you can do.Just another super low risk high reward roaming build, nothing new under the sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandzibar.5134 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @"Skada.1362" said:imo, rapid fire should work just like warriors 100 blades. so, rooted to the ground and bulk of the damage comes from the final hit of the chain.Yeah? and maybe warriors whirling axe (axe 5) should also root them in place.. much like Rangers Whirling Defense (axe 5) does ... ? ... or maybe we could make all skills reflectable? and not just projectiles? I mean that sounds balanced too right?We could be here all day trying to make everything "fair". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 The solution to dealing with rangers is kicking them from squad. > @whoknocks.4935 said:@Aeolus.3615 said:@ChartFish.1308 said:@Aeolus.3615 said:@"Zero.3871" said:only Problem with ranger is its bug range of 1800. anet should fix it to the intended 1500 range.I think that range is OK, but needs to be more normalized like bow and arcs worked on Gw1, LB can actually reach arround 3k range :) and unblockables, and u wont see the arrow due distance, only when it hits theres the hit animation.Like i tend to say and alot, game lacks mechanics in favor of dumb gimmicks for very bad players think they are excelent players...3k is a bit of a stretch. I've tested out max range myself, and it does not reach that far. On flat ground its just, just under 2k, on elevated ground tip toes with 2kIt felt more towards 3k than 2k, and only the hitting animation was triggering on my toon, picture was after health instantly went down to almost zero, lucky i had good reflexes hitting rev heal, after than was manage damage and sustain until where i stop taking damage, i propably move some 400- 600units behind after take that damage.IMO range it is ok, burst imo needs to be slightly reduced since was very very fast(lucky im used to very very fast games) and the bugs of only showing damage hitting.Just another super low risk high reward roaming build, nothing new under the sun.That's how roaming works. You pick a build which can gank / pick off unsuspecting noobs, farm those and run away, kite or hide the moment you're outskilled or outnumbered; and no matter which one it is you'll always blame something other than skill. It's not about "skill" or "fair fights".Even fights when roaming don't exist. If you want small scale balance, go PvP. Even blobs have better balance and better options for even fights than "roaming". Which is also the exact reason why it's enjoyed by so many players. "Red = dead" is a gankfest with half the players camping siege / objectives to run the moment they look like they might lose. Half the roamers are busy camping SMC. Duelling depends mostly on the classes; but without objectives to control resetting combat to make up for mistakes is the norm. Roaming as small groups mostly ends up fighting heavily outnumbered "roamers" aka PVE hero's and ppt'ers. Obviously there are highly skilled solo roamers and small groups. And they regularly fight outnumbered against far worse roamers / pve players / PPTers rather than fighting any kind of even fights; because the chance of them running into a solo roamer of the same caliber is insanely small. The chance of them having a fight without either side adding to it is even smaller unless you go roaming / duelling places specifically. And at that point it's still a game of "howmany times can i reset until either of us get a proper spike / engage". Fair enough if you enjoy it. Pretending it's "skilled" while half the roamers are ganking from SM and the other half are running condi mirage :trollface: Low risk high reward is kinda the motto of GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknocks.4935 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @Etheri.5406 said:The solution to dealing with rangers is kicking them from squad. > @whoknocks.4935 said:@Aeolus.3615 said:@ChartFish.1308 said:@Aeolus.3615 said:@"Zero.3871" said:only Problem with ranger is its bug range of 1800. anet should fix it to the intended 1500 range.I think that range is OK, but needs to be more normalized like bow and arcs worked on Gw1, LB can actually reach arround 3k range :) and unblockables, and u wont see the arrow due distance, only when it hits theres the hit animation.Like i tend to say and alot, game lacks mechanics in favor of dumb gimmicks for very bad players think they are excelent players...3k is a bit of a stretch. I've tested out max range myself, and it does not reach that far. On flat ground its just, just under 2k, on elevated ground tip toes with 2kIt felt more towards 3k than 2k, and only the hitting animation was triggering on my toon, picture was after health instantly went down to almost zero, lucky i had good reflexes hitting rev heal, after than was manage damage and sustain until where i stop taking damage, i propably move some 400- 600units behind after take that damage.IMO range it is ok, burst imo needs to be slightly reduced since was very very fast(lucky im used to very very fast games) and the bugs of only showing damage hitting.Just another super low risk high reward roaming build, nothing new under the sun.That's how roaming works. You pick a build which can gank / pick off unsuspecting noobs, farm those and run away, kite or hide the moment you're outskilled or outnumbered; and no matter which one it is you'll always blame something other than skill. It's not about "skill" or "fair fights".Even fights when roaming don't exist. If you want small scale balance, go PvP. Even blobs have better balance and better options for even fights than "roaming". Which is also the exact reason why it's enjoyed by so many players. "Red = dead" is a gankfest with half the players camping siege / objectives to run the moment they look like they might lose. Half the roamers are busy camping SMC. Duelling depends mostly on the classes; but without objectives to control resetting combat to make up for mistakes is the norm. Roaming as small groups mostly ends up fighting heavily outnumbered "roamers" aka PVE hero's and ppt'ers. Obviously there are highly skilled solo roamers and small groups. And they regularly fight outnumbered against far worse roamers / pve players / PPTers rather than fighting any kind of even fights; because the chance of them running into a solo roamer of the same caliber is insanely small. The chance of them having a fight without either side adding to it is even smaller unless you go roaming / duelling places specifically. And at that point it's still a game of "howmany times can i reset until either of us get a proper spike / engage". Fair enough if you enjoy it. Pretending it's "skilled" while half the roamers are ganking from SM and the other half are running condi mirage :trollface: Low risk high reward is kinda the motto of GW2. The problem is how those build works even on not noobs people, they just kill you because of the profession and not because they are more skilled than.Of course you can encounter more skilled people than you and they deserve the win for how they fought you, but seeing a normal average player killing someone better just because the class is so braindead it's just so sad. That's all.And now in company of durability spellbreaker, condi and power mirage and druid, soulbeast join the squad of easy to play and low risk high reward specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flarre.4850 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 What i find stupid is the fact that i do 509 damage with my thief sword and ranger do 578/660/743 at range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChartFish.1308 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @Flarre.4850 said:What i find stupid is the fact that i do 509 damage with my thief sword and ranger do 578/660/743 at range.aside from scaling up at max range range, LRS does almost the same base damage as dragonhunter auto/warrior auto (if both shots hit). They even have the same scaling on the ~~1k range mark. if it makes you feel better thief sword auto does more damage than ranger sword AA :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skada.1362 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @Sandzibar.5134 said:@"Skada.1362" said:imo, rapid fire should work just like warriors 100 blades. so, rooted to the ground and bulk of the damage comes from the final hit of the chain.Yeah? and maybe warriors whirling axe (axe 5) should also root them in place.. much like Rangers Whirling Defense (axe 5) does ... ? ... or maybe we could make all skills reflectable? and not just projectiles? I mean that sounds balanced too right?We could be here all day trying to make everything "fair".yeah well its just that rapid fire is already 1500~ range while being able to move when firing while warriors 100 blades is 130 range and does the most amount of damage if the whole chain hits. besides the rest of the longbow skills would remain 1500~ (+) range. and yea, go ahead and suggest whatever you want for axe 5 its not like there are many of those around in pvp/wvw.Oh and you can build soulbeast to deliver 12-15k longbow auto attacks in wvw from 1800~ range. now thats.. fair right mr ranger boy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Sure you can build it. And be glass. Then a Thief or a Mesmer comes along and one shots you from behind. For every OP Soulbeast gripe I can throw out an equal gripe about OP Spellbreaker, OP Firebrand, OP Scourge, OP Mesmer, OP Thief, OP Engineer, OP Revenant. The only thing that worse playing than a Ranger is an Elementalist right now after they gutted MS and Lava Font. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skada.1362 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @oOStaticOo.9467 said:Sure you can build it. And be glass. Then a Thief or a Mesmer comes along and one shots you from behind. For every OP Soulbeast gripe I can throw out an equal gripe about OP Spellbreaker, OP Firebrand, OP Scourge, OP Mesmer, OP Thief, OP Engineer, OP Revenant. The only thing that worse playing than a Ranger is an Elementalist right now after they gutted MS and Lava Font.So 1 shot the thief then? I've literally downed a thief from 100% health with 1 auto attack on my soulbeast. Or go for a more balanced build and be acually competetive. I dont see what you defenders problems are. I think soulbeast is very balanced, other than being able to move while casting rapid fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:For every OP Soulbeast gripe I can throw out an equal gripe about OP Spellbreaker, OP Firebrand, OP Scourge, OP Mesmer, OP Thief, OP Engineer, OP Revenant.This argument always get beaten down as defending "your" class and gets brushed aside, not sure if you expect different result here.Weeks ago it was the mesmer, now its the soulbeast... I'm holding my toes for renegade next week. Someone good comes along and owns a duo spellbreaker running condi longbow/rifle and pistol/shield holo running turrets, suddenly renegades are disgustingly OP and everywhere in WvW compared to never ever seen weak spellbreakers and even weaker holos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @whoknocks.4935 said:@Etheri.5406 said:The solution to dealing with rangers is kicking them from squad. > @whoknocks.4935 said:@Aeolus.3615 said:@ChartFish.1308 said:@Aeolus.3615 said:@"Zero.3871" said:only Problem with ranger is its bug range of 1800. anet should fix it to the intended 1500 range.I think that range is OK, but needs to be more normalized like bow and arcs worked on Gw1, LB can actually reach arround 3k range :) and unblockables, and u wont see the arrow due distance, only when it hits theres the hit animation.Like i tend to say and alot, game lacks mechanics in favor of dumb gimmicks for very bad players think they are excelent players...3k is a bit of a stretch. I've tested out max range myself, and it does not reach that far. On flat ground its just, just under 2k, on elevated ground tip toes with 2kIt felt more towards 3k than 2k, and only the hitting animation was triggering on my toon, picture was after health instantly went down to almost zero, lucky i had good reflexes hitting rev heal, after than was manage damage and sustain until where i stop taking damage, i propably move some 400- 600units behind after take that damage.IMO range it is ok, burst imo needs to be slightly reduced since was very very fast(lucky im used to very very fast games) and the bugs of only showing damage hitting.Just another super low risk high reward roaming build, nothing new under the sun.That's how roaming works. You pick a build which can gank / pick off unsuspecting noobs, farm those and run away, kite or hide the moment you're outskilled or outnumbered; and no matter which one it is you'll always blame something other than skill. It's not about "skill" or "fair fights".Even fights when roaming don't exist. If you want small scale balance, go PvP. Even blobs have better balance and better options for even fights than "roaming". Which is also the exact reason why it's enjoyed by so many players. "Red = dead" is a gankfest with half the players camping siege / objectives to run the moment they look like they might lose. Half the roamers are busy camping SMC. Duelling depends mostly on the classes; but without objectives to control resetting combat to make up for mistakes is the norm. Roaming as small groups mostly ends up fighting heavily outnumbered "roamers" aka PVE hero's and ppt'ers. Obviously there are highly skilled solo roamers and small groups. And they regularly fight outnumbered against far worse roamers / pve players / PPTers rather than fighting any kind of even fights; because the chance of them running into a solo roamer of the same caliber is insanely small. The chance of them having a fight without either side adding to it is even smaller unless you go roaming / duelling places specifically. And at that point it's still a game of "howmany times can i reset until either of us get a proper spike / engage". Fair enough if you enjoy it. Pretending it's "skilled" while half the roamers are ganking from SM and the other half are running condi mirage :trollface: Low risk high reward is kinda the motto of GW2. The problem is how those build works even on not noobs people, they just kill you because of the profession and not because they are more skilled than.Of course you can encounter more skilled people than you and they deserve the win for how they fought you, but seeing a normal average player killing someone better just because the class is so braindead it's just so sad. That's all.And now in company of durability spellbreaker, condi and power mirage and druid, soulbeast join the squad of easy to play and low risk high reward specs.See second part of my post : players who want "fair", "skilled" or "balanced" aren't even going to look for it in roaming. There's no reason to expect these kind of fights in roaming. Challenging, maybe. Fair? Hahahahaha. And that's also why so many low-end players LOVE roaming and ganking. That's what the majority of EU servers are now. Massive "roaming" / ganking collectives desperate for kills but unable to organise. Trying to be safe in groups... but also dispersing as soon as they run into an organised group. The community is casual; they want the game to be like this. You don't need to be good to "feel" like you beat someone. No matter how lame or irrelevant. Baby steps and small victories. In PvP you end up at 1k rating in bronze and go "yay I won a game" but everyone still knows you're awful. In WvW you can just gank someone who can't fight back (appropriately) and feel good about yourself; then do your best to run and escape anyone that can kill you. It's far simpler and inherently unbalanced / unfair. Sit on SM until you see a full signet core necro, pewpew it then say "haha I rekt that scrub". Casually ignoring the fact that you're literally semi-afking in safety until a bigger scrub comes around that you can gank. Bonus points for crying about groups, zergs or other specs the moment you get rekt. The vast majority of this game does NOT want skill-based. Does not want "fair" or "challenging". They want the game to make them believe they're actually good at it, or at least ... maintain that immersion. Challenges aren't exactly popular in this game, much less on this forum. Most don't go "roam" because they want even, fair or skilled fights. They go roam because they need the hit&run strats are more lenient to getting kills and feeling good for low-skill players. Same is true for many zerglings trying desperately to get carried. They'll follow a group while spamming 1, somehow barely staying alive even in the easiest of fights, yet manage to convince themselves "they" are part of the group that is doing good. In reality they're getting carried without even appreciating the players that carry them, then throw a tantrum when said players don't feel like carrying them, but they enjoy it because they're doing "pvp" but they're not dead 24/7. And they get kills often enough to pretend they're much better than they are. Then they cry about stacking the moment they get rolled by players that actually use their skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @"Xtinct.7031" said:How has this not been bought up yet? I think the stacking damage modifiers are overtuned and out of control. There are a bunch of things "over tuned" and "out of control" and neglected and not addressed and shoved on some table somewhere collecting dust... while pve gets 99% of the attention... and balance patches don't reflect meaningful healthy changes in wvw or spvp. You're not going to get much sympathy because all professions can pump out high damage with certain builds. It's silly of you to target the soulbeast as some main offender when there is a ton of carp floating around everywhere. Be less transparent and more objective. You want to talk about this too? Or is this just limited to the almighty ranger player that beat you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @"sephiroth.4217" said:I've been playing zerker soulbeast and using the trinkets with 18 vitality attached to them but more specifically the build that hit for 60k in sPvP...My numbers only get to about 50-55k though on tower lords so haven't quite perfected the build yet....While yes it's completely overpowered in some aspects, the rest is utterly useless against any player worth his salt... Not only that but to get the damage amplification costs quite a bit of set up or using cool downs so if you end up missing the burst hit, you're pretty much screwed.Conditions too, slight bit of sustained condition pressure and it's all over.The burst set up is pretty obvious too not sure how others do it but as I said, there's a bit of a set up:Strength of the Pack > Merge with pet mid animation > Barrage if theres a few enemies or Rapid Fire if only a single target > Hunters shot > Switch weapon while arrow is still in flight > We Heal As One to double the might stack > Sick Em > Maul > Worldy Impact (traited for taunt on beast skills)I won't comment on the other builds as I only play zerker soul beast or druid trapper.so kinda like this set up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonia.8695 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 The damage can be a bit ridiculous at times and I don't think the spec needed the additional stat buff but OK, whatever. Most of the longbow rangers are awful players anyway, so I couldn't care less when I get sniped by one.Where are the roaming melee rangers man? Haven't seen one in the last two years. That build requires at least some brain activity. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @"Etheri.5406" said:In reality they're getting carried without even appreciating the players that carry them, then throw a tantrum when said players don't feel like carrying them, but they enjoy it because they're doing "pvp" but they're not dead 24/7.Coincidentally that perfectly describes commanders too. What a small world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @Skada.1362 said:Oh and you can build soulbeast to deliver 12-15k longbow auto attacks in wvw from 1800~ range. now thats.. fair right mr ranger boy?...What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Nah, that's exaggeration. Highest I've seen is 8.5-9k. Still, that's getting pretty ridiculous for an autoattack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKeostuKen.2738 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Not even from a ranger thats built on pure glass do I see these numbers from a auto attacking longbow. Maybe if you were a uplevel while they were using all there damage multipliers on cooldown would this be believable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skada.1362 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 @coro.3176 said:Nah, that's exaggeration. Highest I've seen is 8.5-9k. Still, that's getting pretty ridiculous for an autoattack.its not an exaggeration just because you haven't seen it. www.twitch.tv/videos/273285878i've hit similar numbers using the same build he does.. 12-15k longbow autos. self buffed ezpz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eramonster.2718 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 @Skada.1362 said:@coro.3176 said:Nah, that's exaggeration. Highest I've seen is 8.5-9k. Still, that's getting pretty ridiculous for an autoattack.its not an exaggeration just because you haven't seen it. www.twitch.tv/videos/273285878i've hit similar numbers using the same build he does.. 12-15k longbow autos. self buffed ezpz:sweat_smile: Glass cannon with full buff + x Borderlands Bloodlust, is it really that surprising? I mean....certainly there are many other class can perform or even better meeting the prerequisite. Plus, the fight would've ended differently if he's not above the wall. Provide the same boons and such to spellbreaker, mirage, deadeyes etc and that druid will end up the same or running with his tail between his legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skada.1362 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 @Eramonster.2718 said:@Skada.1362 said:@"coro.3176" said:Nah, that's exaggeration. Highest I've seen is 8.5-9k. Still, that's getting pretty ridiculous for an autoattack.its not an exaggeration just because you haven't seen it. www.twitch.tv/videos/273285878i've hit similar numbers using the same build he does.. 12-15k longbow autos. self buffed ezpz:sweat_smile: Glass cannon with full buff + x Borderlands Bloodlust, is it really that surprising? I mean....certainly there are many other class can perform or even better meeting the prerequisite. Plus, the fight would've ended differently if he's not above the wall. Provide the same boons and such to spellbreaker, mirage, deadeyes etc and that druid will end up the same or running with his tail between his legs.I just stated the FACT that soulbeasts can be built to deliver 12-15k longbow auto attacks. OBVIOUSLY you'd have to be a glass cannon to achieve this i mean.. how is that not obvious guys come on..Using that build you simply press 3 buttons voila you now have 25 stacks of might, and stacking 25 bloodlust stacks isnt that hard now is it?"hurr murr that build iz bad because other classes would kill it ez" listen, the damage output available to soulbeasts using all kinds of damage modifiers is kinda nuts. And no, spellbreakers and mirages can't auto attack people for that amount of damage from 1800 + range. /brain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkpile.7439 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 And everybody knows how this whining ends. Anet nerf soulbeast overal damage and don't even think why some players do lot's of dmg. After that normal balanced build doesn't do kitten. Well i don't really care. I just play some other character after that. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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