DPS shaming

[Cyndercat.7615]

@Ahrijlaken.9541 said:Not beying optimal with DPS can ruin a raid or it just make it a bit longer ? ( new player here )

Bosses have an enrage timer, which means after around 10mins the boss gains 300x damage and will start oneshotting people. The requirements to beat the enrage timer are really low though. Doing 10k dps is enough to beat it. Most classes can potentially do 30-40k dps so optimal is never needed, but there is a minimum. Alot of new players do fail to meet this minimum. I imagine OP is one of them.

Some bosses have mechanics that can be skipped by doing enough damage to bosses to reach a % hp threshold. E.G gorseval which requires around 15kdps. While its not an instant wipe if you fail to get it to the threshold, it involves doing alot of extra mechanics. The reality of this is, if you team doesn't have enough damage to reach the %hp, they arent going to be able to deal with these extra mechanics and will usually wipe regardless.

In gorsevals case, if you fail to reach 66% hp, (then 33%) you have to take an updraft to avoid a oneshot attack. Orbs are constantly spawning around the arena that need to be killed too. If you are too slow, the orbs will overwhelm you and you will die. Teams that fail to reach 66% in time, will almost guaranteed to be lacking the damage to deal with the orbs.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

do not shame your famiry

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Moogri.1935" said:Here's an idea: help the underperforming player get better.Not only can ArcDPS just display a player's dps, but it breaks down the amount of damage that comes from each skill.

This would be helpful if there were not a sizeable amount of players of this game who simply don't want to improve. They feel that showing up for high end content with bad gear and bad builds a right.You will read many many threads on this forum by people who honestly believe it is their right to show up in a t3 fractal with whatever gear and build they choose and do negligible damage, offer zero team support and overall under-perform.They will misquote the developers "play how you want" line. They will say "it's my build and it works for me, I should be able to use it anywhere I choose".This forum is home to a thread or two a day from players like this. They will blame Arenanet or toxic elitists. They will say it's DPS shaming, or whatever meme is popular this week.They will never gutcheck themselves and ask if they could do more to ensure a team's success in difficult content. They think the game's design should allow this. They won't swap something on their skill bar to bring more CC.

They argue challenge is a design failure, not a chance for improvement.

Spending time explaining gear and build to this crowd is not what I would call time well spent.

[cthaeh.2168]

I love how the argument for DPS meters in this game went from:A: "We don't need them and shouldn't have them. You're going to use this as a weapon against other players."B: "No, no, DPS meters are cool. We just need them to improve our own performance."

To:A: "Okay, seriously, you're using this as a weapon against other players."B: "This is totally fine. Those filthy casual leechers should never have joined in the first place."

Stay classy, folks.

[Dante.1763]

@"cthaeh.2168" said:I love how the argument for DPS meters in this game went from:A: "We don't need them and shouldn't have them. You're going to use this as a weapon against other players."B: "No, no, DPS meters are cool. We just need them to improve our own performance."

To:A: "Okay, seriously, you're using this as a weapon against other players."B: "This is totally fine. Those filthy casual leechers should never have joined in the first place."

Stay classy, folks.

Some of us knew this is what would happen and are sitting around just watching the house burn down because we called it. Its sad to say but this community and its playerbase has gotten arguably worse since they where allowed.(time to get jumped by everyone).

[Shikaru.7618]

@Dante.1763 said:

@"cthaeh.2168" said:I love how the argument for DPS meters in this game went from:A: "We don't need them and shouldn't have them. You're going to use this as a weapon against other players."B: "No, no, DPS meters are cool. We just need them to improve our own performance."

To:A: "Okay, seriously, you're using this as a weapon against other players."B: "This is totally fine. Those filthy casual leechers should never have joined in the first place."

Stay classy, folks.

Some of us knew this is what would happen and are sitting around just watching the house burn down because we called it. Its sad to say but this community and its playerbase has gotten arguably worse since they where allowed.(time to get jumped by everyone).

What tangible action and routes for improvement would you propose to groups who are consistently wiping on bosses in a world without combat logs and parsers?

[Dante.1763]

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@cthaeh.2168 said:I love how the argument for DPS meters in this game went from:A: "We don't need them and shouldn't have them. You're going to use this as a weapon against other players."B: "No, no, DPS meters are cool. We just need them to improve our own performance."

To:A: "Okay, seriously, you're using this as a weapon against other players."B: "This is totally fine. Those filthy casual leechers should never have joined in the first place."

Stay classy, folks.

Some of us knew this is what would happen and are sitting around just watching the house burn down because we called it. Its sad to say but this community and its playerbase has gotten arguably worse since they where allowed.(time to get jumped by everyone).

What tangible action and routes for improvement would you propose to groups who are consistently wiping on bosses in a world without combat logs and parsers?

Before we even get into this discussion, it should be said that this discussion has been on going before raids where ever implemented and it has gone down exactly as @cthaeh.2168 has said it did, and it should be noted that i love raids as well.

Its called trial and error. Long ago we had these things called dungeons, and they had mechanics that could cause groups to fail if not done properly, and guess what, players learned them without DPS meters being in game. Fractals where the same way.

Players survived, and learned, and got better without them before, they can do so now as well.

The ONLY good thing that has come out of dps meters is people can see that classes arent useless(necro and ranger, which would get kicked on sight), which with the addition of the DPS golem in the training area would still have happened.

Everything else theyve done, hasnt been healthy to the games community imo.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Dante.1763 said:Its called trial and error. Long ago we had these things called dungeons, and they had mechanics that could cause groups to fail if not done properly, and guess what, players learned them without DPS meters being in game.And as soon as they figured them out and put them on farm we had a meta where people got insta-kicked for the wrong class just like we do now.

The ONLY good thing that has come out of dps meters is people can see that classes arent useless(necro and ranger, which would get kicked on sight), which with the addition of the DPS golem in the training area would still have happened.But still we hear the same tired speeches by necro-mains booty-bothered about not getting raid spots and rangers who get insta kicked in WvW to this day.I may not use or support the use of DPS meters personally, but I am not going pretend ARC created the drama, made it any better or worsened the community in any way.

The only thing different different is raw numbers power the toxicity.

[Dante.1763]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Dante.1763 said:Its called trial and error. Long ago we had these things called dungeons, and they had mechanics that could cause groups to fail if not done properly, and guess what, players learned them without DPS meters being in game.And as soon as they figured them out and put them on farm we had a meta where people got insta-kicked for the wrong class just like we do now.

Ive yet to get kicked for any of the classes i play in raids, granted i dont pug, so i cant speak to that.

The

ONLY

good thing that has come out of dps meters is people can see that classes arent useless(necro and ranger, which would get kicked on sight), which with the addition of the DPS golem in the training area would still have happened.But still we hear the same tired speeches by necro-mains booty-bothered about not getting raid spots and rangers who get insta kicked in WvW to this day.I may not use or support the use of DPS meters personally, but I am not going pretend ARC created the drama, made it any better or worsened the community in any way.

The only thing different different is raw numbers power the toxicity.

Necros i can understand in raids, every other class(well, thieves are a more recent addition) but them is welcome by the general raiding public. Rangers in WvW is just a case of players wanting their class to be good at something that its not meant to be good at.

Im not pretending it did, the drama started literal years before the first DPS meter was created, shortly after launch. The difference was anet flat out refused to allow them, and using them was a bannable offense. Anet caved to a vocal group(not going to say minority here, cause i never did count the number of unique people posting like i used to with other topics), and they got allowed, now we get to deal with both sides of DPS meters being toxic to each other, which is something i said way back then. Should they have been allowed? I dont know, imo, i think an ingame personal(ONLY) should have been added that way players could see their DPS/mechanics etc constantly, but only their own.

[Shikaru.7618]

@Dante.1763 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Dante.1763 said:Its called trial and error. Long ago we had these things called dungeons, and they had mechanics that could cause groups to fail if not done properly, and guess what, players learned them without DPS meters being in game.And as soon as they figured them out and put them on farm we had a meta where people got insta-kicked for the wrong class just like we do now.

Ive yet to get kicked for any of the classes i play in raids, granted i dont pug, so i cant speak to that.

The

ONLY

good thing that has come out of dps meters is people can see that classes arent useless(necro and ranger, which would get kicked on sight), which with the addition of the DPS golem in the training area would still have happened.But still we hear the same tired speeches by necro-mains booty-bothered about not getting raid spots and rangers who get insta kicked in WvW to this day.I may not use or support the use of DPS meters personally, but I am not going pretend ARC created the drama, made it any better or worsened the community in any way.

The only thing different different is raw numbers power the toxicity.

Necros i can understand in raids, every other class(well, thieves are a more recent addition) but them is welcome by the general raiding public. Rangers in WvW is just a case of players wanting their class to be good at something that its not meant to be good at.

Im not pretending it did, the drama started literal years before the first DPS meter was created, shortly after launch. The difference was anet flat out refused to allow them, and using them was a bannable offense. Anet caved to a vocal group(not going to say minority here, cause i never did count the number of unique people posting like i used to with other topics), and they got allowed, now we get to deal with both sides of DPS meters being toxic to each other, which is something i said way back then. Should they have been allowed? I dont know, imo, i think an ingame personal(

ONLY

) should have been added that way players could see their DPS/mechanics etc constantly, but only their own.

I much prefer the data informed reality we have today over having to rely on a pugmander's gut feeling who likely doesnt have a deep understanding of all 9 classes' builds and rotations, while simaltaneously watching all 10 peoples ability usage to figure out why a mechanic failed. The trial and error process would start with kicking necros and rangers or some other uninformed degenerate behavior without factual backing.

[Cyninja.2954]

Oh please, this is just pathetic.

Yes let's forget the:4 Warrior and mesmer dungeon groups.

The instant remove of ranger or necromancer and anything that was not guardian, warrior, elementalist or mesmer.

The argument for damage meters was never: we need them for practice only. It was always we need them for improvement and analysis. This includes both removal of inefficient elements while it also allows for the keeping of efficient elements.

With damage meters, the times were someone was kicked due to his class of choice are gone and replaced by the removal based purely on performance.

It's shocking how people will lie and twist facts on past behavior, only to get their personal view somehow through. If you are having consistent issues with getting removed due to bad damage meter performance, guess who's fault that is. A small hint: it's neither the other players, nor the damage meters.

[Condutas.3580]

Are players allowed to shame others...

No need to read anything else. No, you are not allowed to shame others in a game like this, not for any reason. What this have to do with fractal, raids or anything else? Its about being and acting like a human being.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Condutas.3580 said:Are players allowed to shame others...

No need to read anything else. No, you are not allowed to shame others in a game like this, not for any reason. What this have to do with fractal, raids or anything else? Its about being and acting like a human being.

Problem here he or she or hen feel shamed for he wasnt allowed to leech and thinks its unfair to kick someone who under perform

[Henry.5713]

Depends on the context and how people word their statements. There is a difference between shaming someone and simply speaking the truth even if some people really can't tell the difference. They sometimes act as if someone just called them "a fat cow" when the actual words were along the lines of "you are a little overweight". If you can't handle having someone point out your damage is low, when it actually is low, then you are the one at fault.I am against someone acting like an obnoxious jerk of course and I am not saying those don't exist but every story has two sides. And it is rather trendy to act the victim in some spectacular cases nowadays.

[Dami.5046]

DPS meters in my opinion shouldn't be allowed in any game. If there was any a source of grieving that is it.

[Susy.7529]

And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@"Susy.7529" said:And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

This being? I'll grant you that, ban DPS meters from the game.But then, we go back to the old days where the only metrics will be KP, AP and class. So if you think you're getting "harassed" now, then when you start seeing yourself unable to play anything but the top meta elite specs and builds, then you'll be crying for a DPS meter back.

[Zaraki.5784]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Susy.7529" said:And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

This being? I'll grant you that, ban DPS meters from the game.But then, we go back to the old days where the only metrics will be KP, AP and class. So if you think you're getting "harassed" now, then when you start seeing yourself unable to play anything but the top meta elite specs and builds, then you'll be crying for a DPS meter back.

Those methods (KPs and classes) still exists and are the most used everywhere, it's just that now exists arc, in addition to those.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Susy.7529" said:And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

This being? I'll grant you that, ban DPS meters from the game.But then, we go back to the old days where the only metrics will be KP, AP and class. So if you think you're getting "harassed" now, then when you start seeing yourself unable to play anything but the top meta elite specs and builds, then you'll be crying for a DPS meter back.

Those methods (KPs and classes) still exists and are the most used everywhere, it's just that now exists arc, in addition to those.

And which one do you think is the fairest? KP is a proof that you know the mechanics of the encounter (theoretically - there's a lot of people that bought runs and still doesn't know what they're doing although they own legendary armour), and is usually only used for CM and Raids where mechanics are demanding. For other content (Fractals) you don't get asked for KP, but you can still be hindering other players if playing incompetently.People that use Arc won't discriminate by classes, for the most part, some are incompetent, like there's people using "meta" builds and classes and still don't know what they're doing. Imitating something and going through the motions doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. But those that do, and that's the majority have a better tool than what class you play.

Also, the fact that there's some methods already used doesn't mean they are less random and prejudiced. DPS meters are unbiased, they show your performance in a number which is easily comparable with a standard or an average, without those all that's left for players to sort out their companions (and people will want to do that, time is limited and most people don't want to spend theirs babysitting) is arbitrary standards, which everyone should want to avoid, especially those that want to play "non-meta" builds, since those will be excluded automatically without a DPS read to back them off.

And while you might say the game has a "DPS meter" in the golem training area... Well i'd like to see the logistics of having to go there every time you join a group, and there's the fact that i don't think it shares other people's results does it?

[Zaraki.5784]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Susy.7529" said:And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

This being? I'll grant you that, ban DPS meters from the game.But then, we go back to the old days where the only metrics will be KP, AP and class. So if you think you're getting "harassed" now, then when you start seeing yourself unable to play anything but the top meta elite specs and builds, then you'll be crying for a DPS meter back.

Those methods (KPs and classes) still exists and are the most used everywhere, it's just that now exists arc, in addition to those.

And which one do you think is the fairest? KP is a proof that you know the mechanics of the encounter (theoretically - there's a lot of people that bought runs and still doesn't know what they're doing although they own legendary armour), and is usually only used for CM and Raids where mechanics are demanding. For other content (Fractals) you don't get asked for KP, but you can still be hindering other players if playing incompetently.People that use Arc won't discriminate by classes, for the most part, some are incompetent, like there's people using "meta" builds and classes and still don't know what they're doing. Imitating something and going through the motions doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. But those that do, and that's the majority have a better tool than what class you play.

Also, the fact that there's some methods already used doesn't mean they are less random and prejudiced. DPS meters are unbiased, they show your performance in a number which is easily comparable with a standard or an average, without those all that's left for players to sort out their companions (and people will want to do that, time is limited and most people don't want to spend theirs babysitting) is arbitrary standards, which everyone should want to avoid, especially those that want to play "non-meta" builds, since those will be excluded automatically without a DPS read to back them off.

And while you might say the game has a "DPS meter" in the golem training area... Well i'd like to see the logistics of having to go there every time you join a group, and there's the fact that i don't think it shares other people's results does it?

It's not a matter of the fairest meter, I meant that things has become more complex instead of more simple, from a 1 layer to 2 layers security check.Before you had to ping/show your stuff. Stop.Now you have to FIRST ping/show your stuff, THEN do enough dps to satisfy the standard or whatever the commander of your group think the standard is.But if you want to talk about fair meters then imho both those 2 layers must be eliminated in order to have a healthier game becouse noone must have the ability to check others in any way.People should merge in parties/squads with people with different levels, ranging from pros to newbies. It would take much time for pros and it would take less time for newbs than it usually takes to complete fract/raid, instead of splitting the community in training and KPs groups and creating salty topics like this one, where 2 opposite views clash with no chances of agreements.Alas most so called "pros" are permanently in a hurry state, wanting to complete everything as fast as possible and a big part of newbs would't want or wouldn' be able to learn preferring to be carried instead, thus such a solution would cause a verbal war so things will stay as they are, with 2 opposite groups in the community.

[Blaeys.3102]

The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

[rabenpriester.7129]

@"Condutas.3580" said:Are players allowed to shame others...

I mean, if you (all hypothetical "you"s) feel shamed by me telling you that you are not good enough at this game for my groups, that's really on you. Idk why so many people seem to take it as a personal attack on their very being. Then again, I don't care about that, so... neither should you?

Stop acting as if this is an attack on you as a human being. Stop being so entitled to getting to play with better players. You aren't, and no amount of complaining about dps meters, kps or anything will change that. Doesn't matter if you complain here or ingame, either. These "tools" just show that you are not on the same level, but believe me, people like me would see that anyways - and people not as good as me would not and would kick the wrong guys sometimes. :)

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Blaeys.3102 said:The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

Ironic healer is might provider dead healer means lower dps

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Susy.7529" said:And this is why the use of arc should be perma banned from Anet.

This being? I'll grant you that, ban DPS meters from the game.But then, we go back to the old days where the only metrics will be KP, AP and class. So if you think you're getting "harassed" now, then when you start seeing yourself unable to play anything but the top meta elite specs and builds, then you'll be crying for a DPS meter back.

Those methods (KPs and classes) still exists and are the most used everywhere, it's just that now exists arc, in addition to those.

And which one do you think is the fairest? KP is a proof that you know the mechanics of the encounter (theoretically - there's a lot of people that bought runs and still doesn't know what they're doing although they own legendary armour), and is usually only used for CM and Raids where mechanics are demanding. For other content (Fractals) you don't get asked for KP, but you can still be hindering other players if playing incompetently.People that use Arc won't discriminate by classes, for the most part, some are incompetent, like there's people using "meta" builds and classes and still don't know what they're doing. Imitating something and going through the motions doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. But those that do, and that's the majority have a better tool than what class you play.

Also, the fact that there's some methods already used doesn't mean they are less random and prejudiced. DPS meters are unbiased, they show your performance in a number which is easily comparable with a standard or an average, without those all that's left for players to sort out their companions (and people will want to do that, time is limited and most people don't want to spend theirs babysitting) is arbitrary standards, which everyone should want to avoid, especially those that want to play "non-meta" builds, since those will be excluded automatically without a DPS read to back them off.

And while you might say the game has a "DPS meter" in the golem training area... Well i'd like to see the logistics of having to go there every time you join a group, and there's the fact that i don't think it shares other people's results does it?

It's not a matter of the fairest meter, I meant that things has become more complex instead of more simple, from a 1 layer to 2 layers security check.Before you had to ping/show your stuff. Stop.You never had that...Now you have to FIRST ping/show your stuff, THEN do enough dps to satisfy the standard or whatever the commander of your group think the standard is.But if you want to talk about fair meters then imho both those 2 layers must be eliminated in order to have a healthier game becouse noone must have the ability to check others in any way.Why? Because people want to save time by wasting others? GW2 has coddled this behaviour for too long, and if anything good has come out of raids was that it upped the ante so that that behaviour had to be controlled, which left devs with no other choice but allow DPS meters.Every other game has gear score and/or equipment inspections, because they know that worse than a frustrated player that doesn't invest time in the game, it's a frustrated player that does, because who do you think will be more prone to spending money on the game? The layabout, or the active "perfectionist"?

People should merge in parties/squads with people with different levels, ranging from pros to newbies. It would take much time for pros and it would take less time for newbs than it usually takes to complete fract/raid, instead of splitting the community in training and KPs groups and creating salty topics like this one, where 2 opposite views clash with no chances of agreements.Why? Explain, what do you think is the result of this mix? Except perpetuating the state of people not bothering to learn the game and getting used to be carried. Because for the most part, this is what happened for the first 2-3 years of the game, when dungeons were the primary content and Fractals less so, people would just get carried by the 1-2 competent players in the team, and be ok with that. You still see this in World bosses and other open world stuff, just join a raid, pop open a DPS meter and out of 10-30 people ore more, you'll see 2-5 doing 80% or more of the DPS.Then when those that were coddled and carried hit a proper obstacle, like "high-tier" Fractals and Raids, they get frustrated because they're deemed incompetent for that level of content, and some will learn and improve, others will whine in the forums.

Alas most so called "pros" are permanently in a hurry state, wanting to complete everything as fast as possible and a big part of newbs would't want or wouldn' be able to learn preferring to be carried instead, thus such a solution would cause a verbal war so things will stay as they are, with 2 opposite groups in the community.It's not opposite. I've probably spent more hours doing Fractals to teach others how to do Fractals than most people complaining about DPS meters have done Fractals.In fact, back when you had to do levels in sequence to unlock them, i was held back at 20 for ages because i'd be constantly going back to doing 1-10 to get my guild mates up to speed.But when i want to get my dailies done, or have a goal in mind other than teaching and helping others, i don't want to be stuck doing that all over again. There's a time and a place, and when i'm doing a random LFG, i expect others to show the same respect i show them, by not expecting them to carry me, so i don't expect to be asked to carry them.It's basic human decency and social behaviour.

[Walhalla.5473]

One question to the people who want DPS-Meters to be banned. What do you think will happen after such a ban?