Is there any sort of counter to condi mirage?

[Belishine.7493]

the insight of the mirrage condi is the fact that they will do confusion as a main condi then fallowed by bleeds and burning so if you know how they come in you can counter them but that confusion can hit you for 20k max sometime more if they know how to get more confusion on you. now that you know this the secind issue is the dodge they do is a blure type of dodge meaning they can stand thare and take no damage from most attacks. the big thing is to know what build they are as a condi and try to counter it that way but i see as a mes the most strong way to fight is septur pistle and axe torch.septur i use skill 3 then 5 then go axe 2 times 2 then i do 3 then most of the time everyone i fight is down then i just stealth and stomp so not hard to do and the condi is high and most of the time they kill them self.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

^ There's no way confusion hits for 20k, heck even half that.Unless you're saying total damage, in which you spam skills while confused.

[Daishi.6027]

My subjective perspective:I've reliably killed Condi Mirage on Power Mirage, Core Guard, DD, Soul Beast (prior to Boon Beast) and bunked till they flee with weaver specifically in WvW.I have confidence Holo can, but I admit I'm pretty bad at engie, and majority I've fought with condi mirage I have killed.(This is high plat, and legend players with Power Mirage it was vs a few demigods. Not that these titles and rankings mean much, but that is to say: "not rando gold players.")

Little bit more objective:Core Gaurd and DD. Both need to actively out play the mirage and their condis to win.

I am in the camp that isn't opposed to condi mirage changes though. However I will always argue against the amount of hyperbole and blatant lies that is frequently spewed around. If changes are to be made I want it under the most sound and objective context available.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Unless you're saying total damage, in which you spam skills while confused.Thats usually what people do against mesmers regardless of having confusion on them, yes.

[Kas.3509]

1. dodge their main burst -> they're pretty defenseless without dodges with low dmg for like 6-8 seconds.
2. Don't spam skills when youre under confusion -> just condi cleanse.
3. Learn to see who is a clone and who is a real mesmer -> quite easy if you ever played mesmer.Enjoy a win in 1 vs 1 situation.

If you're playing against 2 mirages at once (2 vs 1) or necro minion build and mirage at oncethen RIP because you probably won't be able to see much with all these clones and target/dodge properly. Spam screen is annoying. Drop aoe's, dodge and hope for best or go away and try to see something from afar and suprise them.

easiest path -> play mirage for a week and get to know you weaknesses, how peple kill you etc. Then use your knowledge against mirages and mirror ppl who killed you when you played mirage.I usually don't have problem with mirages when playing necro. I main mesmer in PVE, but in PvP necro spam is much easier..

[Burnfall.9573]

Good Luck countering condi miraje- 95@ poison uptime + being able to 1 shotHealing+Condi+Power+Bunker=All in one Build=Does everything

'Guild Wars 2 - WvW OVERPOWERED Condition Mirage Build (Axe/Torch Sword/Pistol) - Shorts'

(this has nothing to do with shorts who is a passionate avid streamer, it has to do with Anert design team who need to complete remove this toxicity from the game)

(Anet is fully responsible for identifying and eliminating toxic designs including its destructive behaviors in the game)

'[CnD] Shatter Spam Condi Mirage | 28.5k-46.2k DpS Benchmark | 11.12.2018 Balance Patch'Published on Dec 29, 2018

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Condi mirage = the pre-nerfed chill Reaper on steroids.

In the past Reapers could do 3 bleeds on chill and inflict huge stacks of bleed by chaining skills that did chill (I think the highest I saw was 40+ stacks of bleed).Reapers were nerfed (1 bleed on chill) which barely does anything other than tickle now.

Now, condi mirage are able to chain skills and easily inflict a continuous stream of torment and confusion, easily stacking 20+ confusion and 20+ torment and 10+ bleeds/burns and reapplying all these condis very frequently just by dodging and activating mirage ambush on all their illusions.

IIRC, anet once said that the design philosophy behind condi dmg was for it to have a ramp up time. It was supposed to be Low-moderate damage that builds up over time if it is not cleansed, as opposed to power damage that was to be instant. (Which I suppose is a reason why stats like dire/trailblazers exist to enable a condi player to survive Long enough to ramp up the damage over time)

The current state of condi dmg application across most classes however seems not to match the above philosophy of ramp up over time condi damage.

Most classes (except Necro, Ele and Warrior) are instead able to chain skills and inflict large stacks of damaging conditions that does huge amount of near instantaneous damage over time. (Which makes stats like dire/trailblazers seem broken as the condi player is able to hit as hard and as fast as a power build but with even more defenses)

The most OP burst used to belong to Chill Reaper (nerfed) and now to belongs to Mirage.Condi mirage has to go through a similar nerf.Maybe a few months later because Reaper did enjoy the OP chill builds for 8 months.

[Kas.3509]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Condi mirage = the pre-nerfed chill Reaper on steroids.

In the past Reapers could do 3 bleeds on chill and inflict huge stacks of bleed by chaining skills that did chill (I think the highest I saw was 40+ stacks of bleed).Reapers were nerfed (1 bleed on chill) which barely does anything other than tickle now.

Now, condi mirage are able to chain skills and easily inflict a continuous stream of torment and confusion, easily stacking 20+ confusion and 20+ torment and 10+ bleeds/burns and reapplying all these condis very frequently just by dodging and activating mirage ambush on all their illusions.

IIRC, anet once said that the design philosophy behind condi dmg was for it to have a ramp up time. It was supposed to be Low-moderate damage that builds up over time if it is not cleansed, as opposed to power damage that was to be instant. (Which I suppose is a reason why stats like dire/trailblazers exist to enable a condi player to survive Long enough to ramp up the damage over time)

The current state of condi dmg application across most classes however seems not to match the above philosophy of ramp up over time condi damage.

Most classes (except Necro, Ele and Warrior) are instead able to chain skills and inflict large stacks of damaging conditions that does huge amount of near instantaneous damage over time. (Which makes stats like dire/trailblazers seem broken as the condi player is able to hit as hard and as fast as a power build but with even more defenses)

The most OP burst used to belong to Chill Reaper (nerfed) and now to belongs to Mirage.Condi mirage has to go through a similar nerf.Maybe a few months later because Reaper did enjoy the OP chill builds for 8 months.

The difference is, bleed is not confusion. Confusion and torment are something you can play against. Bleed and burning besides condi cleanse? Not so much. You can't avoid biggest part of dmg, which makes it too good to be able to stack lots of it.

[TorQ.7041]

I think with core guard, if you miss your burst, its basically over. At least of the times i tired with core guard. Condi cleanse is not really even that worth it cos they just put it back on you instantly.

People say dodge their skill etc etc. But its hard to see which one is real. with tall the stealth and detarget. and even if u dodged axe 3 and 2. their skill recharge is so fast, by the time u tired to react they already have mass condo on you.

I then tired n went on mirage to play it. pretty easy wins on lower lvls. esp with pistol inspiration build. The play style is so boring tho, basically land all ur hits n sit back.

Really cancer of the whole game. I much rather have power mirage be a thing because at least u can counter them cos they are squish.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Is it technically possible to kill a condi mirage or should I just run away? I am looking for anything on any class, even stalling would be ok...is there anything at all?

In sPvP, core guardian with GS/sword, dps FB. Holo. Some warrior builds can also endlessly stall against condi mirage. Some ranger builds can also do very well against mirgae.

I would like core guardian but I can't leave house without treated soaring devastation...it's just too good to pass up, also power FB it's too clanky for me to use, it requires perfect tome summoning for perfect rotation, I'd rather use fb as support and don't push my luck; as ranger it seems a losing battle even using axe/axe sword/war, despite having 2k+ hrs on ranger I can stall at most a good condi mirage and I need to watch out every single step.

With a guardian I can keep up the pressure but again, I get overwhelmed by condis in the end.....

Overconfident mesmers tend to shatter without abandon making them easy prays but a more attentive mesmer will immediately switch to staff/chaos field/kiting tactic with distance shatter and there is no way to reach them without falling for the circle set up shatter thx to the 8s CD staff teleport away from target

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@Kas.3509 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Condi mirage = the pre-nerfed chill Reaper on steroids.

In the past Reapers could do 3 bleeds on chill and inflict huge stacks of bleed by chaining skills that did chill (I think the highest I saw was 40+ stacks of bleed).Reapers were nerfed (1 bleed on chill) which barely does anything other than tickle now.

Now, condi mirage are able to chain skills and easily inflict a continuous stream of torment and confusion, easily stacking 20+ confusion and 20+ torment and 10+ bleeds/burns and reapplying all these condis very frequently just by dodging and activating mirage ambush on all their illusions.

IIRC, anet once said that the design philosophy behind condi dmg was for it to have a ramp up time. It was supposed to be Low-moderate damage that builds up over time if it is not cleansed, as opposed to power damage that was to be instant. (Which I suppose is a reason why stats like dire/trailblazers exist to enable a condi player to survive Long enough to ramp up the damage over time)

The current state of condi dmg application across most classes however seems not to match the above philosophy of ramp up over time condi damage.

Most classes (except Necro, Ele and Warrior) are instead able to chain skills and inflict large stacks of damaging conditions that does huge amount of near instantaneous damage over time. (Which makes stats like dire/trailblazers seem broken as the condi player is able to hit as hard and as fast as a power build but with even more defenses)

The most OP burst used to belong to Chill Reaper (nerfed) and now to belongs to Mirage.Condi mirage has to go through a similar nerf.Maybe a few months later because Reaper did enjoy the OP chill builds for 8 months.

The difference is, bleed is not confusion. Confusion and torment are something you can play against. Bleed and burning besides condi cleanse? Not so much. You can't avoid biggest part of dmg, which makes it too good to be able to stack lots of it.

No offense but I never bought into this line of argument.I posted my thoughts on a separate thread linked below if you would like to join in the discussion.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65502/confusion-and-torment-are-control-conditions-and-needs-a-re-look/p1?new=1

[mortrialus.3062]

@Burnfall.9573 said:Good Luck countering condi miraje- 95@ poison uptime + being able to 1 shotHealing+Condi+Power+Bunker=All in one Build=Does everything

'Guild Wars 2 - WvW OVERPOWERED Condition Mirage Build (Axe/Torch Sword/Pistol) - Shorts'

(this has nothing to do with shorts who is a passionate avid streamer, it has to do with Anert design team who need to complete remove this toxicity from the game)

(Anet is fully responsible for identifying and eliminating toxic designs including its destructive behaviors in the game)

'[CnD] Shatter Spam Condi Mirage | 28.5k-46.2k DpS Benchmark | 11.12.2018 Balance Patch'Published on Dec 29, 2018

What the heck does a DPS benchmark have to do with anything?

[Carighan.6758]

No there is in fact no counter.

It was purposely designed this way. ANet tried long and hard to shut sPvP down to save resources, but it never worked. So with PoF they added Mirage, a factually unkillable spec. As this results in all matches being mirage vs mirage and no one ever dies so the matches stall, sPvP falls apart and can be shut down.

It has been this way since PoF release in fact, but you're actually the very first person to realize that :+1:

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

A unkillable spec that loses against sd thief, soulbeast and stalls against fb and ele.

[Ansau.7326]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:A unkillable spec that loses against sd thief, soulbeast and stalls against fb, ele, mesmer with inspiration and holos, and 0 capabilities to hold a point.

Fixed.

[DeceiverX.8361]

WS soulbeast with bear stance and snow owl basically maxing cleanses except Sic 'Em can work to actually kill it.

There are some builds which can make condi mirage run away but almost none that can actually kill it if the mirage is running MH sword and flees. Bird SB playing close-up with GS to cleave and chunk the mirage out swapping into longbow for the kill will exhaust the mirage of his mobility while still maintaining capability of dealing damage enough to possibly finish it off. But that's really about it.

I've found since the changes to Confusion, it's not impossible to force it to reset on a lot of builds so long as you focus on chunking out the clones before they can do very much while using your skills and cleanses smartly. Actually securing the kill though... if you're tallking WvW it's next to impossible considering S/x Ambush using on-dodge food has a higher landspeed than even shortbow thief.

[Arioch.4810]

Hmm"...anet once said that the design philosophy..."Anet once said in thief description: "..They're deadly in one-on-one combat.."Today Anet's confirmed vision for thief is +1 role and nothing more in PvP. I would argue Anet is willing to change things up, no matter what was said in the past.

Changes proposed to Condi dmg - application, duration, and spikes - should be argued outside of Mirage arguments. Current condi burst with applying X stacks of (insert condition here) is still not enough to push another profession close to meta build when built for condi dmg. Mirage survives in the meta thanks to overall package brought to the table. Scourge survive thanks to FB support that dials up output for both players to 11.

When was the last time you saw condi thief, Engineer, or (god forbid :P ) Rev in PvP? And please don't answer with anecdotal evidence like "This one time in bronze..."We have enough cleanse/resistance available in top builds to handle condi dmg. In Pvp (and heck, even in small scale WvW) i seldom find myself dying to conditions. Death comes from +1 situations OR getting caught in the windows of time where my defence is spent (cooldowns)

What makes Mirage frustrating to play against is excellent ability to reset, or disengage, or go to +1 situation.

[whoknocks.4935]

Condi mirages especially in WvW are a tough profession to deal with and you need hours and hours of practicing against and hundreds and hundreds of duels against it to know how to beat it.

I played a lot of power, hybrid and condi mirage, just today I decided to switch back to full condi not because I wanna easy wins, but because people can only trash gank and outnumber in this gamemode, and the only profession I have the best odds to win 1vs2 or 1vs3 is condi mirage.

One thing I noticed playing it for quite a bit is: it punish you so hard if you are noob and don't have knowledge of the game, actually I can finish a fight in less than 5 seconds remaining 100% health if the enemy is bad.If the enemy is experienced you will immediately notice how you condi bomb and the enemy have zero condis on himself, a good shatter dodge will make condi mirages cry so hard.

To be honest is the same as really good spellbreaker, they can mantain a rotation of double endure pain, shield block, gs evade, double dodge, full counter while passive regen health each second and the window to kill them is very little and they look unkillable, but once you learn their mechanics they begin easier to deal with.

Talking about counters, here some:

Thief: Core s/d or Daredevil d/p should not have problems with it, they must be careful to dodge the shatter and land every single steal.Warrior: Both Core and Spellbreaker can deal with condi mirages, it can result in a stalemate or a win for one of the two.Ranger: Boonbeast should have zero problems, especially with the recent buff to the stance, they get a flat -60% condi damage, boonbeast right now have zero counters, it should never lose to condi mirage if the player is good.Holosmith: Especially a "conversion" variant can win or either stalemate, but usually holo is good against mirages.Mirage: Seems stupid to mention, but another condi mirage can counter mirage, but even an high burst power mirage running inspiration traitline.Ele: antitoxic or anti condi weaver can result in a stalemate, no way even the best condi mirage can win that fight, not sure if the ele has the damage to win.

[Arheundel.6451]

[update] Found the counter to mirages, my anti condi weaver works wonder...I was able to remove that smug off this mesmer face..he stopped laughing while he was retreating with 20% Hp every time, no more dance/laughing emote for him. Possibly he was running infinite horizon, definetely he had axe and Jaunt, the amount of clones he throwed at me....unbelievable, like there was no end....chaos field..teleport in and shatter....

Now that I think about it..he was definetely running Infinite Horizon..his condi clear was low that's why he was close to wipe. Thank you everybody for the suggestions!

[Arheundel.6451]

@TorQ.7041 said:I think with core guard, if you miss your burst, its basically over. At least of the times i tired with core guard. Condi cleanse is not really even that worth it cos they just put it back on you instantly.

People say dodge their skill etc etc. But its hard to see which one is real. with tall the stealth and detarget. and even if u dodged axe 3 and 2. their skill recharge is so fast, by the time u tired to react they already have mass condo on you.

I then tired n went on mirage to play it. pretty easy wins on lower lvls. esp with pistol inspiration build. The play style is so boring tho, basically land all ur hits n sit back.

Really cancer of the whole game. I much rather have power mirage be a thing because at least u can counter them cos they are squish.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Is it technically possible to kill a condi mirage or should I just run away? I am looking for anything on any class, even stalling would be ok...is there anything at all?

In sPvP, core guardian with GS/sword, dps FB. Holo. Some warrior builds can also endlessly stall against condi mirage. Some ranger builds can also do very well against mirgae.

I would like core guardian but I can't leave house without treated soaring devastation...it's just too good to pass up, also power FB it's too clanky for me to use, it requires perfect tome summoning for perfect rotation, I'd rather use fb as support and don't push my luck; as ranger it seems a losing battle even using axe/axe sword/war, despite having 2k+ hrs on ranger I can stall at most a good condi mirage and I need to watch out every single step.

With a guardian I can keep up the pressure but again, I get overwhelmed by condis in the end.....

Overconfident mesmers tend to shatter without abandon making them easy prays but a more attentive mesmer will immediately switch to staff/chaos field/kiting tactic with distance shatter and there is no way to reach them without falling for the circle set up shatter thx to the 8s CD staff teleport away from target

That was my opinion also, it's rather easy to avoid the core guard burst especially on a mesmer and the condi clear is not really that amazing as otherwise stated

[Arheundel.6451]

@LaGranse.8652 said:I got my weaver with antitoxin runes for the days condi mirages are everywhere. Swap between water and air attunement while laughing your kitten off to thier futile struggle.

Did that ty

[Dawdler.8521]

@Arheundel.6451 said:[update] Found the counter to mirages, my anti condi weaver works wonder...I was able to remove that smug off this mesmer face..he stopped laughing while he was retreating with 20% Hp every time, no more dance/laughing emote for him. Possibly he was running infinite horizon, definetely he had axe and Jaunt, the amount of clones he throwed at me....unbelievable, like there was no end....chaos field..teleport in and shatter....

Now that I think about it..he was definetely running Infinite Horizon..his condi clear was low that's why he was close to wipe. Thank you everybody for the suggestions!Well, welcome to years ago, lol

The ele has always been good at outsustaining others but with the high skill ceiling/complexity and the extremes on zerg builds (gonna be either healer or dps), its very rare to see dedicated roamers that also happen to be good.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I use my non meta Valk/Marauder DPS build (GS/Axe+Torch) w. traveler runes. GS ambush deals with the clones nicely, and thanks to my sigils, i can get a full 25 stacks of might reaaallllllly fast (doesnt last long, however long enough to do nasty things to them). Thanks to my setup, and l2p, I can surprise em when I swap to axe, get 2-3 clones up and BAM, down they go (or run away if they survive, which typically my GS can down em).

DPS on axe was nerfed a bit, however not enough to get me to switch

[Solori.6025]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:I use my non meta Valk/Marauder DPS build (GS/Axe+Torch) w. traveler runes. GS ambush deals with the clones nicely, and thanks to my sigils, i can get a full 25 stacks of might reaaallllllly fast (doesnt last long, however long enough to do nasty things to them). Thanks to my setup, and l2p, I can surprise em when I swap to axe, get 2-3 clones up and BAM, down they go (or run away if they survive, which typically my GS can down em).

DPS on axe was nerfed a bit, however not enough to get me to switch

Have you tried Diviner's stats in WvW?

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:I use my non meta Valk/Marauder DPS build (GS/Axe+Torch) w. traveler runes. GS ambush deals with the clones nicely, and thanks to my sigils, i can get a full 25 stacks of might reaaallllllly fast (doesnt last long, however long enough to do nasty things to them). Thanks to my setup, and l2p, I can surprise em when I swap to axe, get 2-3 clones up and BAM, down they go (or run away if they survive, which typically my GS can down em).

DPS on axe was nerfed a bit, however not enough to get me to switch

Have you tried Diviner's stats in WvW?

tbh I havent given it much of a thought. I like having the +Vit as it allows me to survive most major bursts. I may do some math, however the only boons I try for is Might (ambush GS does this) or/and prob vigor (for obv reasons). If I didnt want the speed boost from the traveler runes (so if a trait I had gave me speed), I would scrap my runes for either Scholar, or Pack in a heartbeat.