Do you enjoy fighting Mesmers?

[Apolo.5942]

So, and this is a serious question, at what point does the generalized dislike for the class design becomes and actionable issue?.

[TorQ.7041]

On top of that, on dodge they get regen, vigor reflect on evade and the ability to cast while dodging.... lol.

@ROMANG.1903 said:They are one of the main reasons I'm staying away from PvP. And in others modes, I hate how many utility tools they have compared to others classes. They can blink a huge distance away with a short cooldown, stealth or perma buff their entire group, teleport 25 people across a great distance, and have a ton of cleanse and defensive cooldowns on top of that. And while building like this does reduce your DPS capabilities, it's not nearly as punishing for mesmers as it is for others classes. And both of the elite specs took what was worst about them and added another ton of it...

The main problem though is the 3 permanent illusions (but what am I saying, with the delay it's actually 5 or 6...) coupled with the messy targetting system. Rework the targetting system, make a real action camera instead of something that looks like it was stopped mid development, and nerf the utility of mesmers (nerfing their healing or damage won't change anything). Don't just nerf a few niche talents, nerf the core mechanics of the class. Then adapt the talents if the mesmer becomes lackluster in these niches.

@ROMANG.1903 said:They are one of the main reasons I'm staying away from PvP. And in others modes, I hate how many utility tools they have compared to others classes. They can blink a huge distance away with a short cooldown, stealth or perma buff their entire group, teleport 25 people across a great distance, and have a ton of cleanse and defensive cooldowns on top of that. And while building like this does reduce your DPS capabilities, it's not nearly as punishing for mesmers as it is for others classes. And both of the elite specs took what was worst about them and added another ton of it...

The main problem though is the 3 permanent illusions (but what am I saying, with the delay it's actually 5 or 6...) coupled with the messy targetting system. Rework the targetting system, make a real action camera instead of something that looks like it was stopped mid development, and nerf the utility of mesmers (nerfing their healing or damage won't change anything). Don't just nerf a few niche talents, nerf the core mechanics of the class. Then adapt the talents if the mesmer becomes lackluster in these niches.

[TorQ.7041]

I realize I actually didn’t mind power mirage so much. The 1 shot is very annoying but at least if u connect u can kill them cos they r so squish. Condi mirage... is just stupid. The amount of survival they have with the massive condi dps. Their animations are also indistinguishable so it’s hard to dodge. And u have to find the [real] Mesmer from all the clones before u even see the animation. Most of the time I don’t even look for it any more. I just guess that oh they r going to axe3 n likely then use axe of sym. Just going to dodge when they detergent or stealth . If I can’t kill one fast enough I just leave.

[Aza.2105]

I really started to dislike fighting mesmer after Anet for revamped them. The amount of clones on the screen at once is just too much and overwhelming. Before the revamp I don't recall ever seeing more than 3. Now its not uncommon to see 6++.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Theres obvious reasons why i hate fighting mesmers.Clones that keep reapearing, like is that its only mechanic in 2 specializations and a core? Creating clones endlessly? If that wasnt a visual cluster mess they also have multiple detargeting skills along with the clones makes retargeting a nightmare.

But thats not all, this one is the one that pisses me off the most. Confusion. There is no internal cool down on it so if you ever want to attack the mesmer u just end up killing your self in the processes. This may not be a problem for the heavy hitters in this game like warrior holo necro ranger classes, but for the quick casting light low health classes like fa ele, thf, gaurd, 12+ stack of confusion will drop us in 2 seconds or less.

Im pretty sure in gw1 mesmer had more then 1 mechanic. Like it could specialize in hp negativity or mp negativity, cc master, or be duff master and moreBut here its juat clones clone clone come one come all spam then clones till enemy is a dead man.Heres a list of former gw1 mesmer builds vs the clonage that is now.Build:Me/A JQ Wastrel's CapperBuild:Me/A Wastrel's MesmerBuild:Me/any Arenas Arcane LanguorBuild:Me/any FA Migraine's DemiseBuild:Me/any FA Psychic ChaosBuild:Me/any FA ShutdownBuild:Me/any GvG Air of DisenchantmentBuild:Me/any GvG June Domination MesmerBuild:Me/any HA Panic MesmerBuild:Me/any HA Psychic Distraction MesmerBuild:Me/any November Energy SurgeBuild:Me/any November Power BlockBuild:Me/any Power Block MesmerBuild:Me/any RA ESurgeBuild:Me/any RA Migraine MesmerBuild:Me/any RA Power BlockBuild:Me/any RA Psychic DistractorBuild:Me/any Tease Mesmer November FluxBuild:Me/E FA GoR ShutdownBuild:Me/E JQ GoR Chaos StormBuild:Me/N FA May FluxBuild:Me/Rt GvG E-Surge Spike MesmerBuild:Me/Rt GvG Non-Wastrel's Psychic Instability

[StabbersTheThird.6053]

Yes to any Mesmer or Mesmer Build, so long as its not Condimesmer. Reason- its way too safe. A guildie said he managed to chain stealth, blocks, iframes, and distortion in such a manner as to become invulnerable for around 20 seconds while dishing out decent condition damage, ignoring that he was also using crowd control abilities/tools. Thats just wrong.

[avey.4201]

Too many clones they may as well be in stealth while fighting, uncounterable evades for days, burst while evade, and if things don't go their way they run away blinking.some of the cheese needs to go.Though I do like being moa'd. wanna get moa'd enough I can learn the skills, and be meta moa.

[Derenaya.3479]

I onften avoid fighting mesmer in SPvPbecause ir just takes way to long... While attacking you‘ll read 70% of the time things like evaded, invuln or nothing since they went stealth again or got out of your target. Thank god they‘re kinda squishy and the 30% of the time you hit them is often enough to kill them.

Condis are also a problem, even if you avoid the big skills you‘ll get alot of them on you, just from the clones or smaller skills you can‘t afford to evade. The clones are just annoying overall, like there are 3-6 clones all the time while you try to find the real mesmer just to loose him again when he axe 3‘s you....

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Any class that can attack and defend at the same time for over 10 seconds is automatically a scrub pandering class that is bad for the game regardless of anything else it does.

@Curunen.8729 said:

I accept that majority don't, and if that leads to nuking the class to appease at least the vocal mass on here then so be it, even if in terms of gameplay there's a lot of negative hyperbole and misguided l2p issues.

The class doesn't need to be nuked. It needs to be redesigned ( again lmao ) so that it actually has viable interactive counterplay. Currently if you die on a Mesmer, it's not because player who killed you was good. It's because you made a mistake.

[BadMed.3846]

I would much prefer Mesmer to be deleted from the game. Such a nonsense it is to play against.

[Gringo.2163]

Usually i need to adjust build when i see 2 or more condi opponents (mesmer or necros) in enemy, team than it is easy fight, otherwise it is hard.

[Curunen.8729]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Any class that can attack and defend at the same time for over 10 seconds is automatically a scrub pandering class regardless of anything else it does.

@Curunen.8729 said:

I accept that majority don't, and if that leads to nuking the class to appease at least the vocal mass on here then so be it, even if in terms of gameplay there's a lot of negative hyperbole and misguided l2p issues.

The class doesn't need to be nuked. It needs to be redesigned ( again lmao ) so that it actually has viable interactive counterplay. Currently if you die on a Mesmer, it's not because player who killed you was good. It's because you made a mistake.

I doubt the core function of things like clones or mirage cloak will change. Not like the phantasm rework. In my mind the only potential functionality change is removing base ability to dodge when cced in MC.

What could be possible is improvements to the targeting system for ease and accessibility to help people who struggle with retargeting quickly. Picking out the real mesmer after stealth or detarget visually should be effortless for good players anyway, but maybe the mechanics of tab or cursor select could be somehow refined further.

[Mbelch.9028]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Any class that can attack and defend at the same time for over 10 seconds is automatically a scrub pandering class regardless of anything else it does.

@Curunen.8729 said:

I accept that majority don't, and if that leads to nuking the class to appease at least the vocal mass on here then so be it, even if in terms of gameplay there's a lot of negative hyperbole and misguided l2p issues.

The class doesn't need to be nuked. It needs to be redesigned ( again lmao ) so that it actually has viable interactive counterplay. Currently if you die on a Mesmer, it's not because player who killed you was good. It's because you made a mistake.

I doubt the core function of things like clones or mirage cloak will change. Not like the phantasm rework. In my mind the only potential functionality change is removing base ability to dodge when cced in MC.

What could be possible is improvements to the targeting system for ease and accessibility to help people who struggle with retargeting quickly. Picking out the real mesmer after stealth or detarget visually should be effortless for good players anyway, but maybe the mechanics of tab or cursor select could be somehow refined further.

I can see them effortlessly, but tab target when there are 8 enemy models on my screen has been the death of me in the past, and I've never been one for clicking on a model to target it. I don't mind that they drop target, but the fact that they so easily drop target, and can at-will change your target to one of their clones, is frustrating.

[Curunen.8729]

@Mbelch.9028 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Any class that can attack and defend at the same time for over 10 seconds is automatically a scrub pandering class regardless of anything else it does.

@Curunen.8729 said:

I accept that majority don't, and if that leads to nuking the class to appease at least the vocal mass on here then so be it, even if in terms of gameplay there's a lot of negative hyperbole and misguided l2p issues.

The class doesn't need to be nuked. It needs to be redesigned ( again lmao ) so that it actually has viable interactive counterplay. Currently if you die on a Mesmer, it's not because player who killed you was good. It's because you made a mistake.

I doubt the core function of things like clones or mirage cloak will change. Not like the phantasm rework. In my mind the only potential functionality change is removing base ability to dodge when cced in MC.

What could be possible is improvements to the targeting system for ease and accessibility to help people who struggle with retargeting quickly. Picking out the real mesmer after stealth or detarget visually should be effortless for good players anyway, but maybe the mechanics of tab or cursor select could be somehow refined further.

I can see them effortlessly, but tab target when there are 8 enemy models on my screen has been the death of me in the past, and I've never been one for clicking on a model to target it. I don't mind that they drop target, but the fact that they so easily drop target, and can at-will change your target to one of their clones, is frustrating.

Yes I just rapid nearest or next/previous then stop as soon as seeing the right one selected - generally under a second in 1v1, but understandably more annoying in 1vX with more than one enemy mesmer.

A possible idea, what if:

• phantasms were unable to be targeted
• select next/previous target had guaranteed 50% chance to select the player, regardless of number of clones (assuming at least one clone is out)?

So clones would be adding a randomness to the target selection, rather than existing in the cycle of next/previous. Each press would roll a separate 50% chance so on average two presses of next/previous would be most likely to reselect the real mesmer?

I honestly do think the targeting system is the games biggest problem when it comes to mesmer.

Edit - also at the same time it would be necessary to make all clones have identical buff bar to the mesmer - eg food, signets etc.

[Mbelch.9028]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Mbelch.9028 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Any class that can attack and defend at the same time for over 10 seconds is automatically a scrub pandering class regardless of anything else it does.

@Curunen.8729 said:

I accept that majority don't, and if that leads to nuking the class to appease at least the vocal mass on here then so be it, even if in terms of gameplay there's a lot of negative hyperbole and misguided l2p issues.

The class doesn't need to be nuked. It needs to be redesigned ( again lmao ) so that it actually has viable interactive counterplay. Currently if you die on a Mesmer, it's not because player who killed you was good. It's because you made a mistake.

I doubt the core function of things like clones or mirage cloak will change. Not like the phantasm rework. In my mind the only potential functionality change is removing base ability to dodge when cced in MC.

What could be possible is improvements to the targeting system for ease and accessibility to help people who struggle with retargeting quickly. Picking out the real mesmer after stealth or detarget visually should be effortless for good players anyway, but maybe the mechanics of tab or cursor select could be somehow refined further.

I can see them effortlessly, but tab target when there are 8 enemy models on my screen has been the death of me in the past, and I've never been one for clicking on a model to target it. I don't mind that they drop target, but the fact that they so easily drop target, and can at-will change your target to one of their clones, is frustrating.

Yes I just rapid nearest or next/previous then stop as soon as seeing the right one selected - generally under a second in 1v1, but understandably more annoying in 1vX with more than one enemy mesmer.

A possible idea, what if:

• phantasms were unable to be targeted
• select next/previous target had
  guaranteed 50% chance to select the player
  , regardless of number of clones (assuming at least one clone is out)?

So clones would be adding a randomness to the target selection, rather than existing in the cycle of next/previous. Each press would roll a separate 50% chance so on average two presses of next/previous would be most likely to reselect the real mesmer?

I honestly do think the targeting system is the games biggest problem when it comes to mesmer.

Edit - also at the same time it would be necessary to make all clones have identical buff bar to the mesmer - eg food, signets etc.

I think it would be worth trying, making it so tab targeting had a 50% chance of targeting the real mesmer, but I don't agree that for that scenario, you'd give the clones/phants all buffs. You'd still need some way to tell the real mesmer.

I don't think it would work in any way for phantasms to not be targetable, as sometimes, there are clear benefits to targeting them. As an engineer, I can blow up the illusionary swordsman if I see it coming my way, but that might be harder if I can't target it.

I don't know the solution, and I'm not sure the balance team does either, so if they're willing to try something like this for a week, I think it would be cool to see community feedback on it.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:Theres obvious reasons why i hate fighting mesmers.Clones that keep reapearing, like is that its only mechanic in 2 specializations and a core? Creating clones endlessly? If that wasnt a visual cluster mess they also have multiple detargeting skills along with the clones makes retargeting a nightmare.

But thats not all, this one is the one that pisses me off the most. Confusion. There is no internal cool down on it so if you ever want to attack the mesmer u just end up killing your self in the processes. This may not be a problem for the heavy hitters in this game like warrior holo necro ranger classes, but for the quick casting light low health classes like fa ele, thf, gaurd, 12+ stack of confusion will drop us in 2 seconds or less.

Im pretty sure in gw1 mesmer had more then 1 mechanic. Like it could specialize in hp negativity or mp negativity, cc master, or be duff master and moreBut here its juat clones clone clone come one come all spam then clones till enemy is a dead man.Heres a list of former gw1 mesmer builds vs the clonage that is now.Build:Me/A JQ Wastrel's CapperBuild:Me/A Wastrel's MesmerBuild:Me/any Arenas Arcane LanguorBuild:Me/any FA Migraine's DemiseBuild:Me/any FA Psychic ChaosBuild:Me/any FA ShutdownBuild:Me/any GvG Air of DisenchantmentBuild:Me/any GvG June Domination MesmerBuild:Me/any HA Panic MesmerBuild:Me/any HA Psychic Distraction MesmerBuild:Me/any November Energy SurgeBuild:Me/any November Power BlockBuild:Me/any Power Block MesmerBuild:Me/any RA ESurgeBuild:Me/any RA Migraine MesmerBuild:Me/any RA Power BlockBuild:Me/any RA Psychic DistractorBuild:Me/any Tease Mesmer November FluxBuild:Me/E FA GoR ShutdownBuild:Me/E JQ GoR Chaos StormBuild:Me/N FA May FluxBuild:Me/Rt GvG E-Surge Spike MesmerBuild:Me/Rt GvG Non-Wastrel's Psychic Instability

Think I can speak for most mesmers when I say that would have prefer GW1 type of mesmer instead of this one as well.But since you played both, how hard do you think the qq would be if mesmer was like the previous one?

[kolompi.1287]

I get it, you are trying to make a point, but your point is that "many people don't like to fight against mesmers so the class needs to be nerfed so much, nobody plays it anymore". You are essentially saying that that because 60% of the votes say "no", there is something wrong with the class.How would these polls look if you would ask about a necro with all the aoes, shades, pulsing mess? Or a thief that either bursts you to pieces or disappears just to try again a few seconds later?Either way, this is a misleading and simply stupid question to ask and you should really think hard about what this could lead to, because imagine if it leads to mesmers being nerfed out of existence... your favourite class could be the next that people find "unfun" to fight.

[meri.9187]

My answer is no and that doesn't have to do with me thinking the class is OP or the obvious fact that Herald vs Condi Mirage is quite possibly one of the worst matchups in the game. No matter what I'm playing, I don't have fun playing against core one-shot mesmer or any variant of mirage. I don't feel like it's a fun matchup whether I'm playing rev, warrior, guard, thief, engi, ele, or anything else.

The only mesmer spec I have veritably had fun fighting in this game is power chrono. However, I feel the poll is a bit skewed, so I voted for my overall opinion, which is that mesmer is unfun to fight against, especially these days. Mirage is by design terrible to fight against due to the complete BS nature of Mirage Cloak. No matter whether I win or lose I have no fun fighting it. This goes for both PvP and WvW but obviously it's worse in WvW with the permanent disengage.

[Apolo.5942]

So 166 votes, 80%+ of rejection towards the class, is this actionable yet?

I think this deserves a comment by devs.

[MyPuppy.8970]

Nothing makes you improve more than fighting a busted spec.

[Crab Fear.1624]

when they say i play a cat build....yes i do

[freedomtolove.5476]

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Think I can speak for most mesmers when I say that would have prefer GW1 type of mesmer instead of this one as well.But since you played both, how hard do you think the qq would be if mesmer was like the previous one?

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_hex_spells

I can only imagine the Q.Q in this game if players were punished for spamming skills. Empathy and Insidious Parasite would hard counter melee. Backfire and Arcane Conundrum would make casters rage. Visions of Regret and Spiteful Spirit would make zergs cry and ragequit the game forever. And those are only some of the many things that made Guild Wars 1 more of an Esport than this game will ever be.

[tinyreborn.1938]

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:My answer is no and that doesn't have to do with me thinking the class is OP or the obvious fact that Herald vs Condi Mirage is quite possibly one of the worst matchups in the game.Its just your opinion. Here is my opinion : mesmer vs thief ,always been one sided in thief favor because broken ecto and to support that anet added to withdraw torment removal to counter 1 of main conditions mesmer has,buffed plasma to have quickness/alacrity/resistance to spam steals endlessly.No matter what I'm playing, I don't have fun playing against core one-shot mesmer or any variant of mirage. I don't feel like it's a fun matchup whether I'm playing rev, warrior, guard, thief, engi, ele, or anything else.Thats a l2p issue . If core mesmer farming you after all those nerfs , thats just you, git gud sir.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Apolo.5942 said:So 166 votes, 80%+ of rejection towards the class, is this actionable yet?

I think this deserves a comment by devs.

That's not how the forum works.

[Gulbasaur.1865]

@"Apolo.5942" said:So 166 votes, 80%+ of rejection towards the class, is this actionable yet?

I think this deserves a comment by devs.Are you aware of the terms "vocal minority" and "silent majority"?

Mirage is easy to pick up in PvP, but they're also easy to flatten. There is a bit of paper-beats-scissors to it, but that's true of all builds. My mirage is utterly incapable of going up against, say, guardians, so for me they're a major threat and I usually run away from them (luckily all their skills are easy to spot). Rangers can wipe the floor with me because I've run out of evades before I'm anywhere near them and then they knock me back even further. Necromancers swishing that scythe thing about are a no-no.

I think the trouble is that mirage is all-or-nothing in this regard. You're either dominating or dead already.