1.30h in Amala with PUG group and it's not fun

[phs.6089]

@Bugabuga.9721 said:I think if you see repeating wipes early in the boss fight, just drop the group. There's no point in beating your head against the wall. I don't want my T4 pug runs to take 1.5 hours for one fractal because of very awkward combination of instabilities and fact that TO wasn't designed for stuff that messes with player's positioning (like new social awkwardness -- good luck fitting between telegraphs where you're in bumper car mode and birds force someone to dodge and knock you off).

T4 is no longer for regular pugs. They may have been fine before, but the whole purpose of re-work was to make everything harder and require strict meta comp. Re-list in LFG and hope for more efficient pugs.

We say there is a smart move for every tricky arse. In my experience 'regular pugs' will start to take 2 healing classes and clear the content in gw2.Last time a game I was playing tried to do something like this, double healing became everyday thing.

BTW i don't think Anet supports 'strict meta' on any level it's quite the opposite.

[lare.5129]

@phs.6089 said:We say there is a smart move for every tricky kitten. In my experience 'regular pugs' will start to take 2 healing classes and clear the content in gw2.Last time a game I was playing tried to do something like this, double healing became everyday thing.I absolutely agree, that take 2 healing classes is good choose.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Use special key.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Bugabuga.9721" said:T4 is no longer for regular pugs. They may have been fine before, but the whole purpose of re-work was to make everything harder and require strict meta comp.A "meta comp" is not now nor has it ever been necessary for T4 fractals. Adapting to balance patches and mechanics changes, however, is necessary. And it's common that it takes the amorphous PUG community several months to adjust.

I'd argue that a bigger problem seems to be people using what they think is the meta and not adjusting to what the rest of the team has actually brought.

@Astralporing.1957 said:That was the result of the rework. The purpose supposedly was to get rid of the instabilities with outlier difficulty, those with no counterplay, or ones that promote cancer behaviours in order to make the run more fun.That, apparently, didn't work out as well as intended.I think it's still too soon to know the result of the rework. It's clear that not everyone has accepted that the new instabilities require adaptation.

[maxwelgm.4315]

I'm going to take a wild guess that after about 40 minutes still no one thought it might be time to switch builds or anything of the sort, you know, adapting the strategy?

[Zenith.7301]

I will just say that outflanked on Siren's Reef or sugar rush/vengeance is more than ridiculous. I'm glad I run CM+T4 250 essence type groups consistently, because otherwise without that amount of DPS to melt the boss down before the add stampede becomes a problem will likely end up in wipes with most groups who do not have the DPS.

[Rodrick.1942]

For those who dont understand the culture/history of gw 2 , that means this game was full casual-oriented. You dont really have to care about too much when fight against any mobs/champion/boss because they were too easy to deal with so u can play whatever class/build you want. Even new content are only designed as casual content (for example, dungeon or core tyria map). Anet promised to make a wonderland mmo when they launch gw2 in 2012.

And things changed very quickly because WoW make a huge success in mmorpg market so all player are getting used to their playstyle -- hardcore-oriented game with lots of challenge content. Despite it may break their promise, gw2 still start to add challenge content since HoT to make money.

I quit WoW after defeat lich-king. It was long time ago, then switch to gw2 because of its relax content. I still can feel that gw2 are slowly toward the path of WoW, some new content are good example(well Twilight Oasis is a good example , so as new raid).

That's why some ppl keep complaining about the wrong direction Anet are walking toward. Basically im still love this game but I think not everyone think so

[Cyninja.2954]

@Rodrick.1942 said:For those who dont understand the culture/history of gw 2 , that means this game was full casual-oriented. You dont really have to care about too much when fight against any mobs/champion/boss because they were too easy to deal with so u can play whatever class/build you want. Even new content are only designed as casual content (for example, dungeon or core tyria map). Anet promised to make a wonderland mmo when they launch gw2 in 2012.

No they did not. The original manifesto never said anything about 0 challenge. On the contrary, they were specifically talking about dungeons as challenging group content. They were too before HoT and PoF got released to some extent and even fractals which were introduced well before HoT would disagree with your assumption.

@Rodrick.1942 said:And things changed very quickly because WoW make a huge success in mmorpg market so all player are getting used to their playstyle -- hardcore-oriented game with lots of challenge content. Despite it may break their promise, gw2 still start to add challenge content since HoT to make money.

GW2 came out 6.5 years ago. WoW came out 14+ years ago. Even the time line does not add up to this statement. WoW had it's peak during BC and WotlK which released years before GW2 came out. Please do some basic background research.

@Rodrick.1942 said:

I quit WoW after defeat lich-king. It was long time ago, then switch to gw2 because of its relax content. I still can feel that gw2 are slowly toward the path of WoW, some new content are good example(well Twilight Oasis is a good example , so as new raid).

GW2 is no where near the path of WoW. If the latest expansion is any indicator, WoW is becoming more casual (and please, WoW was the most casual MMO in the market when it released while titles live Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and others were popular) with each expansion.

@Rodrick.1942 said:That's why some ppl keep complaining about the wrong direction Anet are walking toward. Basically im still love this game but I think not everyone think so

People are complaining because that's what people do. GW2 original promise was that you can play any content you desire and still feel as though have progressed and achieved something. That is still given (with the only exception being legendary armor in pve). It is one of the main reasons why rewards often feel less rewarding (since you are often rewarded some basic loot) but at the same time you will always continue to progress to a set goal since you always add value to your account.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

Expecting everything to be the same after an update changed things, clearly is unreasonable. If everything stays the same, then what would be the point of the update?

Amala never was that easy, nothing has changed. PUGs are random and even if you play the meta, you need to adjust to whats in front of you, rather than play mindlessly.Especially after an update.

Or wait for the new meta.

Set your expectations and mindset accordingly

[Cristalyan.5728]

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:Expecting everything to be the same after an update changed things, clearly is unreasonable. If everything stays the same, then what would be the point of the update?

Amala never was that easy, nothing has changed. PUGs are random and even if you play the meta, you need to adjust to whats in front of you, rather than play mindlessly.Especially after an update.

Or wait for the new meta.

Set your expectations and mindset accordingly

The end-game content for GW2 has now two directions: raids and fractals. The dungeons are not on the ANet preferences.

That raids are hard, so hard that only a part of the playerbase is able do complete I can understand. It was like that form the very beginning. A good idea or a bad one from ANet part, this is not the place to comment.

But the fractals? I was able to complete all the fractals back when the max lvl for fractals was 50. And I found them enjoyable. I was able to complete all the fractals post HoT when the lvl raised to 100. Again I found them playable. But it seems ANet tries to empty the fractals of all the fun it may have. With some of the new fractals (especially the Oasis and - for me at least - the Shattered Observatory) being too far away in terms of difficulty from what we were used to call "fractal". Other fractals were "reworked" - in the sense of becoming longer, containing more "trash" mobs of elite level dropping nothing. So, greater effort / longer time to complete / the same? reward. And so on. All of this in the name of the statement: "we want to make the fractals available for players having less time. We don't want to force you to do 4 fractals to have the reward, but to give you the reward for each fractal ... " That means a faster way. FASTER? I never spent more than 1 hour in the older fractals. And I'm not an expert, I pug'ed all the fractals until now.

The last instabilities are the cherry from the cake - now the fractals intended (at least at the statement level) to be accessible for more players are in fact accessible to less players. Moreover, even veterans have complains regarding the difficulty and the length.

Just to clarify some things - I'm still able to do the fractals as the fractals are now. But I found them not enjoyable at all. Moreover, I consider that the time I must invest in doing the fractals is too long for me. At least for me, the last change was not a sign that ANet tries to make the fractals accessible for players with less than 8 hours/day to play and had a contrary effect - I decided to stop wasting my time in fractals.

I know, I'm one single player. Still I see many complains. And I know enough fractal veterans showing a diminished enthusiasm. They have tough nerves but with only few other changes like this they will stop too.

So, this game has no vertical progression. The main reason to continue for a player who hit lvl 80 and completed the story and the map is the end-game. But if ANet tries to make the end-game difficult enough to be inaccessible to many players, then why to play?

This is my mindset. As for expectations? Hm. I think I don't expect something good from this game anymore.

[Compleo.3182]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:Expecting everything to be the same after an update changed things, clearly is unreasonable. If everything stays the same, then what would be the point of the update?

Amala never was that easy, nothing has changed. PUGs are random and even if you play the meta, you need to adjust to whats in front of you, rather than play mindlessly.Especially after an update.

Or wait for the new meta.

Set your expectations and mindset accordingly

The end-game content for GW2 has now two directions: raids and fractals. The dungeons are not on the ANet preferences.

That raids are hard, so hard that only a part of the playerbase is able do complete I can understand. It was like that form the very beginning. A good idea or a bad one from ANet part, this is not the place to comment.

But the fractals? I was able to complete all the fractals back when the max lvl for fractals was 50. And I found them enjoyable. I was able to complete all the fractals post HoT when the lvl raised to 100. Again I found them playable. But it seems ANet tries to empty the fractals of all the fun it may have. With some of the new fractals (especially the Oasis and - for me at least - the Shattered Observatory) being too far away in terms of difficulty from what we were used to call "fractal". Other fractals were "reworked" - in the sense of becoming longer, containing more "trash" mobs of elite level dropping nothing. So, greater effort / longer time to complete / the same? reward. And so on. All of this in the name of the statement: "we want to make the fractals available for players having less time. We don't want to force you to do 4 fractals to have the reward, but to give you the reward for each fractal ... " That means a faster way. FASTER? I never spent more than 1 hour in the older fractals. And I'm not an expert, I pug'ed all the fractals until now.

The last instabilities are the cherry from the cake - now the fractals intended (at least at the statement level) to be accessible for

more

players are in fact accessible to

less

players. Moreover, even veterans have complains regarding the difficulty and the length.

Just to clarify some things - I'm still able to do the fractals as the fractals are now. But I found them

not enjoyable at all

. Moreover, I consider that the time I must invest in doing the fractals is too long for me. At least for me, the last change was not a sign that ANet tries to make the fractals accessible for players with less than 8 hours/day to play and had a contrary effect - I decided to stop wasting my time in fractals.

I know, I'm one single player. Still I see many complains. And I know enough fractal veterans showing a diminished enthusiasm. They have tough nerves but with only few other changes like this they will stop too.

So, this game has no vertical progression. The main reason to continue for a player who hit lvl 80 and completed the story and the map is the end-game. But if ANet tries to make the end-game difficult enough to be inaccessible to many players, then why to play?

This is my mindset. As for expectations? Hm. I think I don't expect something good from this game anymore.

Meanwhile I know many people who say gw2 is too ez and becomes boring, because you just autopilot everything. It will never be the case when all ppl will be happy. Nevertheless, you are not entitled to complete t4 and get rewards. If you cant play at a certain level, just go for t3 or t2. Fractals are the same more or less in every tier, just people want the best rewards with 0 effort. So you might be just one of them. CMs + t4 take +-1h, which is nothing basically, so I dunno why you even mention 8h per day.

[Wuffy.9732]

I made a video commentary of a PUG group I joined while doing t4-Oasis. We didn't have a proper healer, but managed to pull through. Just avoid the aoe and you'll be fine~

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Bugabuga.9721 said:T4 is no longer for regular pugs. They may have been fine before, but the whole purpose of re-work was to make everything harder and require strict meta comp.That was the

result

of the rework. The purpose supposedly was to get rid of the instabilities with outlier difficulty, those with no counterplay, or ones that promote cancer behaviours in order to make the run more

fun

.That, apparently, didn't work out as well as intended.

Iirc @Cyninja.2954 did his/her first siren's reef with a fairly non meta comp. So that statement isnt really true.

Both in raids and in fractals all the classes can be viable for completion. Tho if you want optimal results u go with meta, completion in it of itself isnt the optimal result.

[Bugabuga.9721]

@Wuffy.9732 said:I made a video commentary of a PUG group I joined while doing t4-Oasis. We didn't have a proper healer, but managed to pull through. Just avoid the aoe and you'll be fine~

Ooooh I wish my pug groups came with three scourges to epidemic all the adds and do some barrier and not having to be right on her :) Works wonders on birds too, as long as you didn't run out of dodges because of them in the wrong spot (I think her attacks generally spaced out enough so if you use your special action key it will be off cooldown when next big AOE hits)

[Cristalyan.5728]

@Compleo.3182 said:

Meanwhile I know many people who say gw2 is too ez and becomes boring, because you just autopilot everything. It will never be the case when all ppl will be happy. Nevertheless, you are not entitled to complete t4 and get rewards. If you cant play at a certain level, just go for t3 or t2. Fractals are the same more or less in every tier, just people want the best rewards with 0 effort. So you might be just one of them. CMs + t4 take +-1h, which is nothing basically, so I dunno why you even mention 8h per day.

It is not about entitlement here. I already completed all the fractals until now. The old ones, the newer ones and the ones we have now. I said that the same content (fractals) are now stripped of all the fun by the last changes.

Your advice with just go for t3 or t2 is funny =). I played T4 for a very long time. If for a player who played T4 the only alternative now, after a change made with the purpose to make the fractals more fun and enjoyable, is to play T2, that means the change somewhat took content from that player. As I wrote, this is end-game content. I don't know if taking the end-game content from players is a good move from ANet part.

As for your statement CMs + t4 take +-1h - well, maybe you should read the title of this post. The OP says that it took him 1,5 hours to complete ONE fractal. So, I think that the fractals are indeed for players having around 8 hours to play per day.

By making the fractals more and more difficult I don't expect the number of players in fractals to grow. But to decrease.

I agree with you that It will never be the case when all ppl will be happy. But you know, the real issue here is to be able to decide what part of the unhappy playerbase is more important. You say that Meanwhile I know many people who say gw2 is too ez and becomes boring. Well, I think these ppl already left this boring game to play other challenging games or if they still play this game, that means it is not boring. Being easy (in their opinion) does not prevent them to play the content. On the other hand, a very difficult content prevents the others to play it.

And if you have nothing to play, what can keep you playing?

[Compleo.3182]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Compleo.3182 said:

Meanwhile I know many people who say gw2 is too ez and becomes boring, because you just autopilot everything. It will never be the case when all ppl will be happy. Nevertheless, you are not entitled to complete t4 and get rewards. If you cant play at a certain level, just go for t3 or t2. Fractals are the same more or less in every tier, just people want the best rewards with 0 effort. So you might be just one of them. CMs + t4 take +-1h, which is nothing basically, so I dunno why you even mention 8h per day.

It is not about entitlement here. I already completed all the fractals until now. The old ones, the newer ones and the ones we have now. I said that the same content (fractals) are now stripped of all the fun by the last changes.

Your advice with

just go for t3 or t2

is funny =). I played T4 for a very long time. If for a player who played T4 the only alternative now, after a change made with the purpose to make the fractals more fun and enjoyable, is to play T2, that means the change somewhat took content from that player. As I wrote, this is end-game content. I don't know if taking the end-game content from players is a good move from ANet part.

As for your statement

CMs + t4 take +-1h

- well, maybe you should read the title of this post. The OP says that it took him 1,5 hours to complete ONE fractal. So, I think that the fractals are indeed for players having around 8 hours to play per day.

By making the fractals more and more difficult I don't expect the number of players in fractals to grow. But to decrease.

I agree with you that

It will never be the case when all ppl will be happy

. But you know, the real issue here is to be able to decide what part of the unhappy playerbase is more important. You say that

Meanwhile I know many people who say gw2 is too ez and becomes boring

. Well, I think these ppl already left this boring game to play other challenging games or if they still play this game, that means it is not boring. Being easy (in their opinion) does not prevent them to play the content. On the other hand, a very difficult content prevents the others to play it.

And if you have nothing to play, what can keep you playing?

I agree that there are more casuals, but even then they should realize that some content requires effort. Instabilities are called that way for a reason, therefore one day you get a challenge, other day you can browse the net while doing fractals. Unstable fractals as it is supposed to be. But saying that it requires 8h to complete FOTM is a lie. Firstly, in statistics extreme cases are dismissed, 1.5h for 1 fractal is one of those. Same goes for speed runs. If you dont dismiss extreme cases in equations, your results will be distorted. And secondly, instead of blaming instabilities, it is always possible to improve gameplay. Also, only Anet can see actual numbers if fractals with birds or some specific combos take more time on average to complete. So far, for me it looks like a vocal minority case as I do not bump into any groups that have troubles with any instabilities (especially after they updated slippery slope recently), nor I see people complaining in party chat. And if you say you cannot complete t4 now, maybe that means that you were just on the edge of skill range needed to complete those fractals in the worst cases, but even if it increased by 0.01 just with birds, it's above your limits and it's time you thought what you can do better as a player. Why would you need stop to improve?

[Fractal Spoon.9280]

Maybe there are too many players in T4 and they are actually trying to fix their system.The people that used to run the old 30s/38s 49s or 50 daily fracs should not struggle with the current ones - the difficulty is really about the same with the new instabs.

The only issue is that the new players got used to the very much easier post-hot difficulty of t4s and now it feels bad for them to have to go back to the difficulty-tier where they skill-wise belong.

The only issue I have with the current system is that there is no way to disable them for record runs, so it is next to impossible to compare numbers on a daily basis.