1.30h in Amala with PUG group and it's not fun

[Lahmia.2193]

@borgs.6103 said:5 Plaguedoctor Scourge new meta!

Lol reminds me of when 5 condi reapers were the meta that one time.

[gonzi.7605]

Blame on "meta" - full berserker dps, dudu, and chrono. And now we get stronger instabilities but we also get more for "counter" them. And these way boons trip scourge/spellbreaker can get HUGE dps + survi with only stripping boons when we got "for each boon stripped you steal health from enemy". And also another one - we bleed fire. How to deal with that? In your standard party you have to dodge or you are dead. But take some kind of barrier or reflect projectile so you might save yourself AND whole party. Birds? Here are only one "easy" solution - find a way to provide "vigor". With that boon its like a breeze. But hey - in standard meta party you dont have such a things. Just full dps :)

Druid and chrono might be able to survive on their own, but dps in full berserker without any survive in skills/traits cant. Btw, right now there is nice paradox. Parties "T4 dailies, all welcome" are now far better than "3x berserker, druid, chrono", as everyone in that kind of parties know that they have to take care on their own. And most of people just THINK about what party might need in next fractal. For real - just try think and adjust build for yourself or for challenge ahead. One stupid skill like projectile reflection might be game changer on fractals with "we bleed fire" :pensive: . But with meta thing people just blindly follow what other people said. And now we got cries about how fractals are not worth pain anymore.

Dont get me wrong - full dps, druid and chrono might be still good. Until things dont go wrong. And thats the point - you might finish fractal 30% faster than average party. But what if your party is so squishy and wipe few times. I would said that better make fratal 30% slower but stable than faster and get HIGH risk of wipe and in that case it take much longer time and also provide annoying to party :pensive:

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@"Lord of the Fire.6870" said:I don't know if a Herald built is possible but I fear it will face the same problem.

Yes, you can do Alacrity bot with Harrier Herald but there will be gaps since the only source of alacrity is the Natural Harmony and there are those 10s you have to swap off Ventari into Glint.

yeah I saw that but was too lazy too update my post in compare to chrono this is useless but Glint is supreme in support . I think what we need is a general trait which says something like " when fury is casted you and your allies gain alacrity for 5 sec". Hm were could this be placed invocation 2,2 seems a good spot or in general there somewhere when you go with fury .

Edit: Actually I think this is a great idea maybe it could give more alacrity for changing the legendary (you gain fury with the trait when swapping) and shiro has also fury in addition to the trait where you can fain fury when you heal yourself.

Renegade properly only need then still a boost on the duration of alacrity.

Basically the Herald is then more on the boon support side while Renegade is on the dmg support side with kellas favor and soulcleave.

[Slantix.3418]

@"gonzi.7605" said:Blame on "meta" - full berserker dps, dudu, and chrono. And now we get stronger instabilities but we also get more for "counter" them. And these way boons trip scourge/spellbreaker can get HUGE dps + survi with only stripping boons when we got "for each boon stripped you steal health from enemy". And also another one - we bleed fire. How to deal with that? In your standard party you have to dodge or you are dead. But take some kind of barrier or reflect projectile so you might save yourself AND whole party. Birds? Here are only one "easy" solution - find a way to provide "vigor". With that boon its like a breeze. But hey - in standard meta party you dont have such a things. Just full dps :)

Druid and chrono might be able to survive on their own, but dps in full berserker without any survive in skills/traits cant. Btw, right now there is nice paradox. Parties "T4 dailies, all welcome" are now far better than "3x berserker, druid, chrono", as everyone in that kind of parties know that they have to take care on their own. And most of people just THINK about what party might need in next fractal. For real - just try think and adjust build for yourself or for challenge ahead. One stupid skill like projectile reflection might be game changer on fractals with "we bleed fire" :pensive: . But with meta thing people just blindly follow what other people said. And now we got cries about how fractals are not worth pain anymore.

Dont get me wrong - full dps, druid and chrono might be still good. Until things dont go wrong. And thats the point - you might finish fractal 30% faster than average party. But what if your party is so squishy and wipe few times. I would said that better make fratal 30% slower but stable than faster and get HIGH risk of wipe and in that case it take much longer time and also provide annoying to party :pensive:

... u are overrating "t4, all wellcome" it commonly end as 5 random build without boons low dps and no survive ☺ ... and i think that problem of "meta" is that players just copy meta build and actualy dont learn how to play it often u can see dps with terrible dps or druid cant heal/provide boons or only camp staff ... , pugs rarly prestack, cant cc and when u combine these things meta builds just dont work ... i am just trying to say u can easy play 2 dps chrono druid bs it is just less forgiving ... (i know its better to play quickbrand,renegard now)

[Henry.5713]

The beauty about the current top dogs Firebrand and Renegade is that you are able to adjust their builds to have as little or as much support as you need. Of course you'll struggle if you simply copy and paste something you just can't pull off yourself, as in using the Speedclear orientated Diviner / Berserker variants. Play them as Harrier / Minstrel supports (both if you really need to) instead and you won't struggle anymore. That route is the one most people take and it is vastly superior to playing some selfish build that allows you to solo things when your entire group dies or some random "carry build" that does far less than either of the META builds in more supportive gear would do.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Turns out, your skill level is lacking for this content currently.

Or the content could be overturned and the OP has a valid point? I mean, each new patch / update has been rigorously play tested before release, is bug free, and is a shining example of balance and fluid design, right? Oh wait, no, I seem to remember the afternoon of the update an official announcement that certain instabilities that shouldn't spawn in some fractals were, and they had to issue a fix. I wonder if any other fixes are 'in progress'?

I'm not saying the content is overturned or balanced; I'm just suggesting that saying "L2P" is hardly helpful.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Turns out, your skill level is lacking for this content currently.

Or the content could be overturned and the OP has a valid point? I mean, each new patch / update has been rigorously play tested before release, is bug free, and is a shining example of balance and fluid design, right? Oh wait, no, I seem to remember the afternoon of the update an official announcement that certain instabilities that shouldn't spawn in some fractals were, and they had to issue a fix. I wonder if any other fixes are 'in progress'?

I'm not saying the content is overturned or balanced; I'm just suggesting that saying "L2P" is hardly helpful.

Hence why I suggested initially to take a support Scourge or healing Firebrand along.

Yet I'm sure, since you are so critical of Arenanets developement process, you applied the same standards to topic creators complaint. You know, try different builds, approach the problem from new angles. Instead of banging the head against the problem over and over and then come complain.

Arenanet has metrics on how fractal completion and instabilities interact. If things drop below their expected or desired levels, we will see change.

[borgs.6103]

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:Or the content could be overturned and the OP has a valid point? I mean, each new patch / update has been rigorously play tested before release, is bug free, and is a shining example of balance and fluid design, right? Oh wait, no, I seem to remember the afternoon of the update an official announcement that certain instabilities that shouldn't spawn in some fractals were, and they had to issue a fix. I wonder if any other fixes are 'in progress'?

I'm not saying the content is overturned or balanced; I'm just suggesting that saying "L2P" is hardly helpful.

I sort of disagree. I PUG T4s+recs daily, and if I see that my group's having a hard time, I will ask for some changes with skills equipped and try a different strategy. I will even switch to another class if needed. If that still doesn't cut it, I'll politely leave and just join another group. Perhaps it's just luck, but the next group I join after failing badly from the first one always clears everything without problems.

I agree that some of the new instabilty combos are overtuned but they can still be cleared by learning how to play.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Turns out, your skill level is lacking for this content currently.

Or the content could be overturned and the OP has a valid point? I mean, each new patch / update has been rigorously play tested before release, is bug free, and is a shining example of balance and fluid design, right? Oh wait, no, I seem to remember the afternoon of the update an official announcement that certain instabilities that shouldn't spawn in some fractals were, and they had to issue a fix. I wonder if any other fixes are 'in progress'?

I'm not saying the content is overturned or balanced; I'm just suggesting that saying "L2P" is hardly helpful.

Hence why I suggested initially to take a support Scourge or healing Firebrand along.

Yet I'm sure, since you are so critical of Arenanets developement process, you applied the same standards to topic creators complaint. You know, try different builds, approach the problem from new angles. Instead of banging the head against the problem over and over and then come complain.

Arenanet has metrics on how fractal completion and instabilities interact. If things drop below their expected or desired levels, we will see change.

Maybe he was using a Support Scourge, or a healing Firebrand? You are making assumptions, and yet you tell the OP maybe he isn't good enough for T4?

I'm not critical of ANETs development process, this is just what all MMOs are today. Blizzard has a PTR (Player Test Realm) up for months before they launch a new patch, yet every time, the real testing only begins once the content goes live. This is just as true with GW2, and you've been here long enough to know I'm right.

You also seem remarkably comfortable with the notion that content that was once clearable, now requires a player to switch PROFESSIONS in order to complete. I'm ok with swapping out a utility here or there, but if the only way a player can complete content today, stuff they could do the week before, is by switching to a different profession, then balance is off (or that new profession is just insanely OP).

As for metrics, one of those is player feedback. You want to characterize the OP's post as "complain", which may be fair, but it still is feedback. I'm sure we'll start seeing in the patch notes little tweaks here or there. The wiki shows a list of instabilities that were either reworked or removed, so it isn't like this would be the first time ANET swung and missed.

But in all that, you tell the OP to git gud.

/shrug

I'm out.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Turns out, your skill level is lacking for this content currently.Isn't that the point? His skill was on par up until that last change. If it's lacking now (when his personal skill didn't change), it can only mean the difficulty level of existing fractals went up. Which anyone comfortable with the previousl level of difficulty (and not comfortable with the new one) can justifiably be dissapointed with.(edit: not sure why forum insists on changing a normal word into an emoticon, as i definitely didn't use any emoticon code)

And it's not even sure if that difficulty jump was even intended, or is it just an unfortunate sideeffect of Anet, as usual, being really hamfisted when it comes to game balance.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Arenanet has metrics on how fractal completion and instabilities interact. If things drop below their expected or desired levels, we will see change.Unfortunately they often in such a situation decide not to fix things, but to ease on developing said content instead. Since, you know, it's becoming less popular and all that.

[Cyninja.2954]

Yes, why don't we ask for the 4 necro 1 druid meta back.

People complained back then too, it was beyond retarded easy, it was nerfed and T4 fractals became harder as a direct result (and people complained).

Maybe people need to accept the fact that:A.) there is an adjustment period for new content (especially for the vast majority of players who simply copy+paste meta builds)B.) past loot is no guarantee for future loot (see the necro+druid meta combo)C.) there has always been classes and builds which, while not meta, assured near 100% successD.) unfortunately a first natural reaction for some people is to go complain and whine instead of error find and improve

I find it amazing how people make fractals out to be such difficult content (they are not). The skill level of this player base is beyond terrible (a direct result of not getting challenged) and any type of minor challenge introduced which requires adaptation draws the whiners in bulk (same for open world, but there at least I agree that people should be allowed to chill and mass zerg).

[Zenith.7301]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Turns out, your skill level is lacking for this content currently.

Or the content could be overturned and the OP has a valid point? I mean, each new patch / update has been rigorously play tested before release, is bug free, and is a shining example of balance and fluid design, right? Oh wait, no, I seem to remember the afternoon of the update an official announcement that certain instabilities that shouldn't spawn in some fractals were, and they had to issue a fix. I wonder if any other fixes are 'in progress'?

I'm not saying the content is overturned or balanced; I'm just suggesting that saying "L2P" is hardly helpful.

Hence why I suggested initially to take a support Scourge or healing Firebrand along.

Yet I'm sure, since you are so critical of Arenanets developement process, you applied the same standards to topic creators complaint. You know, try different builds, approach the problem from new angles. Instead of banging the head against the problem over and over and then come complain.

Arenanet has metrics on how fractal completion and instabilities interact. If things drop below their expected or desired levels, we will see change.

Please, entire classes have needed change since forever and that hasn't even happened. Ranger pets still can't attack from wvw castle walss despite having 1200 autoattack range.

The complaint that a AAA MMO has complete contempt for player feedback to the point where it has no PTR, no patch notes preview open to modification based on player feedback before they release their crap (which is how their "buff" patch to power herald actually completely killed it with the sword 4 changes) is legit.

In HoT we had the courtesy of 2 beta weekends for each profession for feedback and changes (which is how chrono shield stopped being worthless) while in PoF we didn't even receive 2 measly weekends.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Turns out, your skill level is lacking for this content currently.Isn't that the point? His skill was on par up until that last change. If it's lacking now (when his personal skill didn't change), it can only mean the difficulty level of existing fractals went up.The only thing we know is that the OP took 90 minutes and then posted on the forums with a complaint about difficulty.

We don't know what level of skill the OP has because they didn't say what they tried or how many alterations in comp, strat, or builds they made on the way to taking 90 minutes. We don't know if they were all that good before or if they just had enough experience that they weren't a burden. And we don't know if, 6 weeks from now, these new instabs might be no problem for the OP (and their party members). We don't know if the OP was part of the reason for difficulty or if they were carrying the other four. We really don't have much info at all about why that group had trouble.

It takes time to adapt to changes in the game. Some people can do so without thinking about it; some people need time; and some need someone else to give them a hint|trick|technique before they can.

It's reasonable for people to get frustrated by change. But that doesn't mean I think we can conclude that content is overtuned just because some (even many) people have trouble during the early period after a change.

Some people have concluded that the 90 minute struggle means that the OP might not be as good as they think; I'm willing to keep an open mind about it because we haven't heard any details. But I'm also not accepting the OP's claim that the instabilities are to blame, without them taking time to analyze what contributed to the new challenge.

tl;dr it's premature to say that the instabilities are overtuned, especially without any details analysis of why specific groups are having trouble. It could be the instabs; it could be the group members haven't adapted yet.

[Evellynn Capone.6584]

@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Ye yesterday instabilities on Twilight Oasis were though, but doable I did that fractal on full zerk reaper with no premade party nor healer, me the only one running bloodmagic. I mean we were all dead 2-3 times, but we finished it. Takes time to get used to new instabilities, but some combos are definitely a lot harder like the one from yesterday.

My Standard Group with 4 man and 1 random Druid we died also 3 times but we finished too. It was a bit hard because of the new Instabillities but it wasnt impossible.

[Henry.5713]

Perceptions may differ greatly, I suppose. They certainly tend to be rather subjective for obvious reasons. I'd tell you that the new instabilities are a step down on difficulty if you asked me which goes against everything others have been saying. Not saying they are wrong of course, just shows how differently one may perceive difficulty depending on your own skill level, the build or class you play and the people you usually go with.

[lare.5129]

If setup bad, and no 2 heal in party strange at all that fractal was complete. It not should been! we make it easy in 3 support(heal revenant, heal scrourge, supp chrono)+2 dps (2 guards) combination.

[Dadnir.5038]

A full necromancer party meta somewhere in PvE... Humm... Is that the stench of the nerf bat that I smell in the coming wind?

[Wuffy.9732]

These days, I just completely rage quit the terrible pug groups. No point in staying there or complaining if people don't know what they're doing. If you're in t4 then you should already know the mechanics, and don't expect your hand to be held. Like 80% of the time, people fail at it because they just stand still and get hit by everything. Healers are nice, but you don't want to depend on them all the time. How do you expect to get better? Pug life just ain't that easy i suppose.

But honestly, Amala isn't a difficult boss. Sure the fractal instabilities might make it more of a pain, but the mechanics are still the same. Avoid the AoE, and the mystic wave attack she does by using your special skill (Enhanced Reflexes) or simply dodging forward into it. I've done t4 Oasis with no healers multiple times. All you need is competent people. It's definitely doable. I'm not telling you to get gud or anything, but seriously just abandon ship and look for another group instead of wasting an hour and 30 minutes next time :P.

[Cristalyan.5728]

@"Dreddo.9865" said:Before someone throws the 'l2p' argument I do this fractal since it was introduced and am fairly familiar with the mechanics and its progress. But something seems changed. The increased AoE skills rate from Amala, 'slippery' circles spawning non stop, along with the 'endless' Mossmans - Tentacles - Skyhammers, etc takes difficulty of the specific fractal to another level. Also those ravens instability so annoying.

Honestly I don't see the reason behind this change. Fractals have always been a place for casual players to PUG and have some fun. There is no need making a daily fractal into a nightmare. :)

You spent 1,5 hours doing ONE single fractal.If I recall correct, the main (official) reason for reworking the old 50 lvl fractals into what we have now was (I quote from memory) - "to help the players to avoid the pain of getting stuck for ONE hour doing FOUR fractals to complete a tier. With the new fractals, you can play for 10-15 minute, complete it and - if you have not enough time - leave, having the progress saved and the corresponding rewards earned". So, ONE hour in the old fractals for an entire tier (40-50 for ex). was too much. And they introduced the new fractals. Now you need only 1,5 hours to complete ONE of the 3 daily fractals =).

In my opinion this is not about the PUGs being worse. Not about getting good and learning to play. This situation proves how much the actual developers are disconnected from the old GW2 ideas. They either don't know these ideas (because they have no time to learn the history and the culture of their own Company) or, if they simply ignore these ideas. Thinking that everything from the past is obsolete (despite the fact that these ideas made GW2 what it is) and they should get ride of it.

So, don't blame the players. No player enters a T4 fractal with the intention to fail. You can bet all are trying the best. The difference is that sometimes (with some "good" instabilities in place) the fractals are on the same level of difficulty with the raids. BUT - by reworking a lot of skills from some key classes to work with a 10 man content, that means the 5 man content is even more difficult.

@ANet management: Your development team is talented and skillful - I have no doubts these were the criteria you selected them. So, teaching them programming techniques is useless - they already know what is needed. But, please, make an effort to teach them the history of the game named GW2 and the values of this game. Because, without these, the result of your dev team will be something resembling the old games they worked before. Old games who (most of them) cannot compare with GW2 in term of valor and beauty. What we have now is the result of the developers work. Many of us find this result not very pleasant. But this is not the fault of the devs. This is the fault of the persons who not educate the developers to think in GW2 terms.

[Compleo.3182]

In the end it is all about players being mostly handless or clueless. Wanna complete fractals fast? L2p or make groups with supports. Good groups are not effected by instabilities in any significant ways. T4 is an autopilot anyway, 3-4men content. They should increase the difficulty and rewards (maybe) and/or add more CMs, so we can get rid of leechers with 10k dps as dh or such. :)

[Cristalyan.5728]

@Compleo.3182 said:In the end it is all about players being mostly handless or clueless. Wanna complete fractals fast? L2p or make groups with supports. Good groups are not effected by instabilities in any significant ways. T4 is an autopilot anyway, 3-4men content. They should increase the difficulty and rewards (maybe) and/or add more CMs, so we can get rid of leechers with 10k dps as dh or such. :)

=) =) I don't want to be rude, but you too should learn the GW2 history and the culture of the GW2 game. At least the Manifesto. You are calling for exclusion. This is not something GW2 was advertised in the first instance. But the opposite - cooperation.What you said is fitted for other games. Why are you playing GW2? And if the other games were so good for you, why you left ? And finally, if you play this game, why you try to change it to be close to the games you left?

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Compleo.3182" said:In the end it is all about players being mostly handless or clueless. Wanna complete fractals fast? L2p or make groups with supports. Good groups are not effected by instabilities in any significant ways. T4 is an autopilot anyway, 3-4men content. They should increase the difficulty and rewards (maybe) and/or add more CMs, so we can get rid of leechers with 10k dps as dh or such. :)

Lol, 10k DPS on average in non-cm groups is very good, should, was and is always sufficient to clear content especially if you have a random team comp in t4s and not everyone is perfect so you have 100% boon uptime. If your chrono throws wells badly (if he even plays wells), your druid isn't able to properly stack might, fb stands wrong, rene doesn't press f2 + f4 regularly etc. etc. you won't be able to hold 10k on your own over the length of a fight.

Btw. It's not the dps why people are failing fracs and it should never be! We have raids for that. Even years before we had people doing less than 1k dps and still could get away with success if carried by decent - not perfect - players and a lot of players with "t4 all welcome" were fine with it. Just don't join such groups and hop into your elitist meta lfg - everything will be fine. For you and for the others. I've been in both groups and it's everyone's right to play their own way.

Although I was part in gazillions of meta groups, semi-speed clear tactic runs and such stuff I'm still on the side that content shouldn't be brute forced with dps. Mechanics should always be the predominant thing to focus on, dps may act as a bonus, nothing more.

[Compleo.3182]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Compleo.3182 said:In the end it is all about players being mostly handless or clueless. Wanna complete fractals fast? L2p or make groups with supports. Good groups are not effected by instabilities in any significant ways. T4 is an autopilot anyway, 3-4men content. They should increase the difficulty and rewards (maybe) and/or add more CMs, so we can get rid of leechers with 10k dps as dh or such. :)

=) =) I don't want to be rude, but you too should learn the GW2 history and the culture of the GW2 game. At least the Manifesto. You are calling for exclusion. This is not something GW2 was advertised in the first instance. But the opposite - cooperation.What you said is fitted for other games. Why are you playing GW2? And if the other games were so good for you, why you left ? And finally, if you play this game, why you try to change it to be close to the games you left?

I dont see other games mentioned, so what are you even talking about? Raids introduction has shown that Anet can add actually challenging content. T4 is easy as it is with too good rewards, so there are a lot of terrible players looking only to get carried. Other than that, I dont see any problems with open world and its metas, it can stay low skill content (casual). Just gather 50 ppl and hold skill 1. EZ win.

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Compleo.3182 said:In the end it is all about players being mostly handless or clueless. Wanna complete fractals fast? L2p or make groups with supports. Good groups are not effected by instabilities in any significant ways. T4 is an autopilot anyway, 3-4men content. They should increase the difficulty and rewards (maybe) and/or add more CMs, so we can get rid of leechers with 10k dps as dh or such. :)

Lol, 10k DPS on average in non-cm groups is very good, should, was and is always sufficient to clear content especially if you have a random team comp in t4s and not everyone is perfect so you have 100% boon uptime. If your chrono throws wells badly (if he even plays wells), your druid isn't able to properly stack might, fb stands wrong, rene doesn't press f2 + f4 regularly etc. etc. you won't be able to hold 10k on your own over the length of a fight.

Yes, that's what I said, people are just bad. And when I say 10k dps, I talk about a situation where dps get all the boons they need and it just hurts to see those low numbers.Also, 'all welcome' just means that some people are ready to take a liability on themselves in the worst case. Personally, I am not willing to carry anyone but a new player. Everyone, who is able to do all T4 (in terms of agony and fractal level), has to perform or be purged from a pt, pretty simple and effective.

[Bugabuga.9721]

I think if you see repeating wipes early in the boss fight, just drop the group. There's no point in beating your head against the wall. I don't want my T4 pug runs to take 1.5 hours for one fractal because of very awkward combination of instabilities and fact that TO wasn't designed for stuff that messes with player's positioning (like new social awkwardness -- good luck fitting between telegraphs where you're in bumper car mode and birds force someone to dodge and knock you off).

T4 is no longer for regular pugs. They may have been fine before, but the whole purpose of re-work was to make everything harder and require strict meta comp. Re-list in LFG and hope for more efficient pugs.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Bugabuga.9721 said:T4 is no longer for regular pugs. They may have been fine before, but the whole purpose of re-work was to make everything harder and require strict meta comp.That was the result of the rework. The purpose supposedly was to get rid of the instabilities with outlier difficulty, those with no counterplay, or ones that promote cancer behaviours in order to make the run more fun.That, apparently, didn't work out as well as intended.