My perspective on the reward structure

[Rasimir.6239]

@Yasi.9065 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:Everything else, anet went and put all the rewards in a daily chest so you arent tempted to repeat that content more than once a day. And that chest then usually is just participation reward, so it also misses the sense of accomplishment you'd get otherwise.

GW2's design offers those who have bought into the MMO paradigm the opportunity to pursue a lot of different things in a given day. This allows them to play many hours per day while also allowing those who use the game at a more sane pace to still have fun and get some virtual fluff as a reward.

I disagree. GW2 is designed in a way that Im forced to do different things, if I like them or not, if I want to not "waste my time". And those playing the game only every few days miss out on the daily rewards in between. So in a sense, that system is bad for both sides. Those playing a lot gain a lot, but only by playing the game in a rather un-fun way. And those not playing a lot also dont get a lot, AND they have to still adhere to the same strict schedule like those playing a lot.No, Im sorry, but daily login rewards already take care of the "casual" crowd not loosing out. The timegated rewards punish everybody, Id even go so far as to say, they punish gamers with less time even more, because they have trouble adhering to the schedule for optimal daily farming.Just yesterday I commented to my husband how I enjoy that GW2 dailies are not mandatory but rather just give you a bonus that you can easily make up another way (either by playing the same content at a later date or playing something different). I've been playing a bit of ESO on and off lately, and their system isn't nearly as forgiving if you can't or simply don't want to play specific content (almost) every day. Be it login rewards where I have to log in every day or do miss out on the later days without ways to make up for it or festival rewards where I need to participate in the festival pretty much every day to get a chance at the exclusive mount and minipet.

In GW2 none of the daily rewards are really exclusive. I don't enjoy world bosses and meta events, so I rarely participate in those, but I have easily gotten my reclaimed metal plates for the specialization weapon collections and the amalgamated gemstones for Nevermore without world bosses or meta events. I jumped into Draconis Mons whenever I felt like it, grabbing druid stone fragments from one or two hearts every couple of days, and eventually ended up with enough of them to get my Wayfarer's Henge without having to force myself to complete the same hearts every day or even on any day I didn't feel like it. If I have a busy day and don't even feel like logging in, I simply don't. There's nothing permanent I'm missing out on.

This is a game. I'm playing to relax, to rewind after a busy day with job and family. There's enough optimisation and efficiency in my life, I don't need more of that in what little spare time I have to just enjoy myself. This game's reward system, unlike most similar games (and I have played online rpgs since the days of muds some 30 years ago), is brilliant in that it allows me to play whatever I enjoy and make progress towards my goals. There's nothing permanent I lose out of if I don't grab this daily or that weekly bonus each and every day/week. I won't have everything right now, but I will eventually get the things I want, and I get them by enjoying my time in game, which to me is much more valuable than "optimising" my time in game to maximize reward aquisition at the cost of content enjoyment.

Anyone that feels punished by this game's reward system or forced to spend considerable playtime on doing stuff in game that they don't enjoy might do well reconsidering why they spend their time in game in the first place, and what it is they intend to get out of it. If your time is so valuable to you that you feel forced to min-max every worthless pixel reward in an online game, why waste it on a game you don't enjoy in the first place?

[joneirikb.7506]

I've suggested/mentioned before the idea of changing the entire reward structure to give the same rewards for anything you do in the game (other than standing afk), and what kind of consequences it would have on the game.

A simplified short version: Remove all current rewards and drops etc, then make a sort of "reward track" for the entire game, and have that drop all the usual stuff (money, gear, mats, etc). As long as you have a certain threshold of activity you're progressing on the reward track, at the same pace for everyone. Unique rewards (skins and stuff) from AP and collections etc would still obviously be stand alone, might even be a couple of different (un-lockable) reward tracks for later with a focus on different things, but the first one should basically be focused on mats+gold.

This means that anyone (using the same reward track) would be getting the same amount of rewards no matter what they do, as long as they stay active, this means that anyone doing fractals, metas in hot, or killing scales in queensdale would get the same reward.

The interesting part about this would be how it shaped players behavior, how many would keep doing what they still do, how many would go do what they wanted to do, and how many would sit in starter maps upholding min participation just for the rewards? A lot of people would likely also get very demotivated, when they feel that anything they do isn't any more rewarding the killing centaurs in the same spot all day.

Human psychology is weird (and interesting), and never makes sense.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

The fact that threads like this exist and a (valid) advice given by many to OP is "take a break", is an issue in itself. Players "taking breaks" from grind burnouts are not guaranteed to come back and it's getting harder to "replenish the ranks" as an aging MMO. And being better than korean grinders doesn't say much, are these the standards we are holding GW2 up to these days? Its own developers used to have the bar higher than that when it all started.

" Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; " - Mike O'Brien , 2010.

[Mewcifer.5198]

@"joneirikb.7506" said:I've suggested/mentioned before the idea of changing the entire reward structure to give the same rewards for anything you do in the game (other than standing afk), and what kind of consequences it would have on the game.

A simplified short version: Remove all current rewards and drops etc, then make a sort of "reward track" for the entire game, and have that drop all the usual stuff (money, gear, mats, etc). As long as you have a certain threshold of activity you're progressing on the reward track, at the same pace for everyone. Unique rewards (skins and stuff) from AP and collections etc would still obviously be stand alone, might even be a couple of different (un-lockable) reward tracks for later with a focus on different things, but the first one should basically be focused on mats+gold.

This means that anyone (using the same reward track) would be getting the same amount of rewards no matter what they do, as long as they stay active, this means that anyone doing fractals, metas in hot, or killing scales in queensdale would get the same reward.

The interesting part about this would be how it shaped players behavior, how many would keep doing what they still do, how many would go do what they wanted to do, and how many would sit in starter maps upholding min participation just for the rewards? A lot of people would likely also get very demotivated, when they feel that anything they do isn't any more rewarding the killing centaurs in the same spot all day.

Human psychology is weird (and interesting), and never makes sense.

People would still call this a grind. People who are obsessed with squeezing every little reward out of the game they can (like refusing to not do dailies because the dailies are there and so they must be done) will feel like they have to play as much as they can in their spare time to get as much reward from the game as they possibly can. And if the rewards are not tied to any particular thing in the game, people will just repeatedly do the same mindnumbingly easy thing they can think of because "efficiency" and then it becomes grinding.

The simple answer to anyone who feels too pressured to "grind" is to just chill. This doesn't have to mean "take a break from the game" as much as it means "stop focusing so hard on what you get and start thinking about what you are doing."It is the nature of MMOs to have content that encourages repetition. Most often through rewards. They need to make sure people keep playing the game regularly and this is the easiest way to do it. GW2 is pretty decent about having a variety of choices. I could spend a couple hours doing every WB, WvW, personal story on an alt, raiding, or any other number of things the game has to offer. Rewards will vary based on the content, but I never feel like my time has been wasted.

The nice things about GW2 is that you don't lose out by not doing things.Don't log in for a day? Your daily log in reward isn't going to reset to the beginning and force you to start over.Don't do your dailies for a day? That's fine, you don't lose anything. Your AP or MF isn't going to drain away because you aren't logging on or because you didn't do something.The only thing that used to do that was WvW participation and even that has been made to not go down if you aren't in WvW. And the only reason it does go down in WvW is because with limited map numbers, a person doing nothing and taking up a slot on the map can actually be hindering others.

People really need to remember that not gaining something is not the same as losing something. You don't have to do these things, be them daily achievements, daily boss kills, or whatever other daily activity. Do they give a nice little reward if you do? Yeah. Is it going to severely cripple your ability to play the game if you don't get that reward? No. Not even close.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Mewcifer.5198 said:

@"joneirikb.7506" said:I've suggested/mentioned before the idea of changing the entire reward structure to give the same rewards for anything you do in the game (other than standing afk), and what kind of consequences it would have on the game.

A simplified short version: Remove all current rewards and drops etc, then make a sort of "reward track" for the entire game, and have that drop all the usual stuff (money, gear, mats, etc). As long as you have a certain threshold of activity you're progressing on the reward track, at the same pace for everyone. Unique rewards (skins and stuff) from AP and collections etc would still obviously be stand alone, might even be a couple of different (un-lockable) reward tracks for later with a focus on different things, but the first one should basically be focused on mats+gold.

This means that anyone (using the same reward track) would be getting the same amount of rewards no matter what they do, as long as they stay active, this means that anyone doing fractals, metas in hot, or killing scales in queensdale would get the same reward.

The interesting part about this would be how it shaped players behavior, how many would keep doing what they still do, how many would go do what they wanted to do, and how many would sit in starter maps upholding min participation just for the rewards? A lot of people would likely also get very demotivated, when they feel that anything they do isn't any more rewarding the killing centaurs in the same spot all day.

Human psychology is weird (and interesting), and never makes sense.

People would still call this a grind. People who are obsessed with squeezing every little reward out of the game they can (like refusing to not do dailies because the dailies are there and so they

must

be done) will feel like they

have

to play as much as they can in their spare time to get as much reward from the game as they possibly can. And if the rewards are not tied to any particular thing in the game, people will just repeatedly do the same mindnumbingly easy thing they can think of because "efficiency" and then it becomes grinding.

The simple answer to anyone who feels too pressured to "grind" is to just chill. This doesn't have to mean "take a break from the game" as much as it means "stop focusing so hard on what you

get

and start thinking about what you are

doing

."It is the nature of MMOs to have content that encourages repetition. Most often through rewards. They need to make sure people keep playing the game regularly and this is the easiest way to do it. GW2 is pretty decent about having a variety of choices. I could spend a couple hours doing every WB, WvW, personal story on an alt, raiding, or any other number of things the game has to offer. Rewards will vary based on the content, but I never feel like my time has been wasted.

The nice things about GW2 is that you don't lose out by not doing things.Don't log in for a day? Your daily log in reward isn't going to reset to the beginning and force you to start over.Don't do your dailies for a day? That's fine, you don't lose anything. Your AP or MF isn't going to drain away because you aren't logging on or because you didn't do something.The only thing that used to do that was WvW participation and even that has been made to not go down if you aren't in WvW. And the only reason it does go down in WvW is because with limited map numbers, a person doing nothing and taking up a slot on the map can actually be hindering others.

People really need to remember that not gaining something is

not

the same as losing something. You don't

have

to do these things, be them daily achievements, daily boss kills, or whatever other daily activity. Do they give a nice little reward if you do? Yeah. Is it going to severely cripple your ability to play the game if you don't get that reward? No. Not even close.

It is true that MMOs by nature need to have repetitive content. But if I stop and think about what I am doing, as you suggested, I will realize I have done everything I enjoy in the game at least once and there is no reason to keep doing it since "I 've been there, done that". Rewards keep players playing but the process itself needs to be rewarding so it doesn't feel like a chore.

Here is a thought on how Anet can make repetitive content fun again. With new LS coming, keep making your maps as usual with their grindy collections, different currencies and their vendors, dailies etc. But instead of stopping at that, go back to your old design philosophy and add more. Take some of the stuff you are planning to spam the store with (outfits, weapon skins, mountskins, back skins etc) and add them in your game. Every new LS map has a meta leading to a world boss and said boss has a small chance of dropping one of these items (think Teq). Make the RNG sensible (not like infusions) and the drops BtA so they don't affect the economy. Make the metas accessible (no Serpent Ire) and profitable enough (not Istan level) to keep people playing, while earning map currency in the process for their long term goal. This way the repetition to get that carrot on the stick has a small chance of immediate gratification and that makes a big difference. Excitement when opening a lootbox is something gamers used to feel while playing games not "playing" cash stores..

[Mewcifer.5198]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Mewcifer.5198 said:

@"joneirikb.7506" said:I've suggested/mentioned before the idea of changing the entire reward structure to give the same rewards for anything you do in the game (other than standing afk), and what kind of consequences it would have on the game.

A simplified short version: Remove all current rewards and drops etc, then make a sort of "reward track" for the entire game, and have that drop all the usual stuff (money, gear, mats, etc). As long as you have a certain threshold of activity you're progressing on the reward track, at the same pace for everyone. Unique rewards (skins and stuff) from AP and collections etc would still obviously be stand alone, might even be a couple of different (un-lockable) reward tracks for later with a focus on different things, but the first one should basically be focused on mats+gold.

This means that anyone (using the same reward track) would be getting the same amount of rewards no matter what they do, as long as they stay active, this means that anyone doing fractals, metas in hot, or killing scales in queensdale would get the same reward.

The interesting part about this would be how it shaped players behavior, how many would keep doing what they still do, how many would go do what they wanted to do, and how many would sit in starter maps upholding min participation just for the rewards? A lot of people would likely also get very demotivated, when they feel that anything they do isn't any more rewarding the killing centaurs in the same spot all day.

Human psychology is weird (and interesting), and never makes sense.

People would still call this a grind. People who are obsessed with squeezing every little reward out of the game they can (like refusing to not do dailies because the dailies are there and so they

must

be done) will feel like they

have

to play as much as they can in their spare time to get as much reward from the game as they possibly can. And if the rewards are not tied to any particular thing in the game, people will just repeatedly do the same mindnumbingly easy thing they can think of because "efficiency" and then it becomes grinding.

The simple answer to anyone who feels too pressured to "grind" is to just chill. This doesn't have to mean "take a break from the game" as much as it means "stop focusing so hard on what you

get

and start thinking about what you are

doing

."It is the nature of MMOs to have content that encourages repetition. Most often through rewards. They need to make sure people keep playing the game regularly and this is the easiest way to do it. GW2 is pretty decent about having a variety of choices. I could spend a couple hours doing every WB, WvW, personal story on an alt, raiding, or any other number of things the game has to offer. Rewards will vary based on the content, but I never feel like my time has been wasted.

The nice things about GW2 is that you don't lose out by not doing things.Don't log in for a day? Your daily log in reward isn't going to reset to the beginning and force you to start over.Don't do your dailies for a day? That's fine, you don't lose anything. Your AP or MF isn't going to drain away because you aren't logging on or because you didn't do something.The only thing that used to do that was WvW participation and even that has been made to not go down if you aren't in WvW. And the only reason it does go down in WvW is because with limited map numbers, a person doing nothing and taking up a slot on the map can actually be hindering others.

People really need to remember that not gaining something is

not

the same as losing something. You don't

have

to do these things, be them daily achievements, daily boss kills, or whatever other daily activity. Do they give a nice little reward if you do? Yeah. Is it going to severely cripple your ability to play the game if you don't get that reward? No. Not even close.

It is true that MMOs by nature need to have repetitive content. But if I stop and think about what I am

doing

, as you suggested, I will realize I have done everything I enjoy in the game at least once and there is no reason to keep doing it since "I 've been there, done that". Rewards keep players playing but the process itself needs to be rewarding so it doesn't feel like a chore.

Here is a thought on how Anet can make repetitive content fun again. With new LS coming, keep making your maps as usual with their grindy collections, different currencies and their vendors, dailies etc. But instead of stopping at that go back to your old design philosophy and add more. Take some of the stuff you are planning to spam the store with (outfits, weapon skins, mountskins, back skins etc) and add them in your game. Every new LS map has a meta leading to a world boss and said boss has a small chance of dropping one of these items (think Teq). Make the RNG sensible (not like infusions) and the drops BtA so they don't affect the economy. Make the metas accessible (no Serpent Ire) and profitable enough (not Istan level) to keep people playing, while earning map currency in the process for their long term goal. This way the repetition to get that carrot on the stick has a small chance of immediate gratification and that makes a big difference. Excitement when opening a lootbox is something gamers used to feel while playing games not "playing" cash stores..

I guess I just never found myself lacking anything fun to do in the game. Although I do sort of agree that anet currently makes the best drops exceedingly rare to the point of ridiculous, and sometimes the rarest drops can't even be traded. Take the music boxes for instance, you can only get them from the daily chests on PoF maps. So if you don't enjoy running across the PoF maps opening all the chests (I enjoy getting together and doing it with a group of friends) you can't even buy it from someone who does. I bet most people don't even realize the music boxes exist.

[Tiviana.2650]

Lets face it repeating stuff is where people get burned. Its fine to have an event or grind in a rotation, but the same thing that comes up often is what causes burnout. But until they make an mmo that is evolving and ever changing in content we will have this problem. Picture a game that you rarely do the same thing twice, at least not close together in a time frame, but weeks or months apart. Things wouldnt get stale because its always different, but that is something we will probably never see in our lifetime. Maybe in the future with a VR type of gaming.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Yasi.9065 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

GW2's design offers those who have bought into the MMO paradigm the opportunity to pursue a lot of different things in a given day. This allows them to play many hours per day while also allowing those who use the game at a more sane pace to still have fun and get some virtual fluff as a reward.

I disagree. GW2 is designed in a way that Im forced to do different things, if I like them or not, if I want to not "waste my time".

Perhaps this is your problem. The inherent purpose of an MMO from the developers' perspective is to make money by producing a "fun" experience. Essentially, though, MMO's are really about wasting players' time. That someone would feel a need to "have" to do things they don't find fun in an game whose sole purpose is to be fun ... that I find baffling. I'd drop any game that made me feel like that in a heartbeat.

[Linken.6345]

@Tiviana.2650 said:Lets face it repeating stuff is where people get burned. Its fine to have an event or grind in a rotation, but the same thing that comes up often is what causes burnout. But until they make an mmo that is evolving and ever changing in content we will have this problem. Picture a game that you rarely do the same thing twice, at least not close together in a time frame, but weeks or months apart. Things wouldnt get stale because its always different, but that is something we will probably never see in our lifetime. Maybe in the future with a VR type of gaming.

We actualy had that with living world season 1, guess what people hated it since they missed content.

[Leo G.4501]

@Yasi.9065 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:But then, Final Fantasy IS a eastern MMO.

Whatever happened to the whole "diversity is our strength" nonsense? I guess progressiveness doesn't extend to MMOs lol

You answer someone that expressly says "dont compare to eastern mmo" by comparing to eastern mmo. Thats nothing to do with diversity.

It was a tongue in cheek response, not really something all that serious. If anything, it's more an out for you to direct your mis-argument at since most of the other stuff you're arguing is very subjective (because GW2's grind is what you make it. it can be practically non-existent for a lot of players).

's nice you took the time to reply to me though.

[Mewcifer.5198]

@"Tiviana.2650" said:Lets face it repeating stuff is where people get burned. Its fine to have an event or grind in a rotation, but the same thing that comes up often is what causes burnout. But until they make an mmo that is evolving and ever changing in content we will have this problem. Picture a game that you rarely do the same thing twice, at least not close together in a time frame, but weeks or months apart. Things wouldnt get stale because its always different, but that is something we will probably never see in our lifetime. Maybe in the future with a VR type of gaming.

The only issue here is that you then will have content that people want to do locked away where they can't do it just so that some people don't burn themselves out by constantly repeating it.People can burn themselves out doing all the raids every week. Would the solution be to make only one wing available every week so people aren't doing the same fights every week?Miss the event you needed for an achievement? Gotta wait a month for it to come around again.While I understand some of the appeal of rotating content, it gives something fresh for people, it's why I like festivals (although sometimes I find myself in a "gotta grind!" mentality because festivals are limited time every year so I want to get as many rewards from it as possible). It also creates more pressure on the players to be at the right place at the right time or they get forced to wait weeks or months.

[Linken.6345]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:But then, Final Fantasy IS a eastern MMO.

Whatever happened to the whole "diversity is our strength" nonsense? I guess progressiveness doesn't extend to MMOs lol

You answer someone that expressly says "dont compare to eastern mmo" by comparing to eastern mmo. Thats nothing to do with diversity.

It was a tongue in cheek response, not really something all that serious. If anything, it's more an out for you to direct your mis-argument at since most of the other stuff you're arguing is very subjective (because GW2's grind is what you make it. it can be practically non-existent for a lot of players).

's nice you took the time to reply to me though.

You do know how hard it is to see when people are replying tongue in cheek and not just being a plain block head right? Hence why /sarcasm is nice to type after trying to be funny.

[Leo G.4501]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:But then, Final Fantasy IS a eastern MMO.

Whatever happened to the whole "diversity is our strength" nonsense? I guess progressiveness doesn't extend to MMOs lol

You answer someone that expressly says "dont compare to eastern mmo" by comparing to eastern mmo. Thats nothing to do with diversity.

It was a tongue in cheek response, not really something all that serious. If anything, it's more an out for you to direct your mis-argument at since most of the other stuff you're arguing is very subjective (because GW2's grind is what you make it. it can be practically non-existent for a lot of players).

's nice you took the time to reply to me though.

You do know how hard it is to see when people are replying tongue in cheek and not just being a plain block head right? Hence why /sarcasm is nice to type after trying to be funny.

I'd like to believe there are other ways to express things without putting a big disclaimer of [THIS IS SARCASM] or something on everything...perhaps putting an "lol" afterwards brings things into question. Putting disclaimers on everything you then miss out on the yucks that take things to seriously and reply without knowing which is kind of half the point of sarcasm.

[Genuinetheo.6591]

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:The fact that threads like this exist and a (valid) advice given by many to OP is "take a break", is an issue in itself. Players "taking breaks" from grind burnouts are not guaranteed to come back and it's getting harder to "replenish the ranks" as an aging MMO. And being better than korean grinders doesn't say much, are these the standards we are holding GW2 up to these days? Its own developers used to have the bar higher than that when it all started.

" Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; " - Mike O'Brien , 2010.

That quote still holds true to this day. Level 80 exotics will take you through most of the game, unless you plan on doing fractals or raids. Take a korean MMO, for example... you're farming nonstop to upgrade your gear to hit the next tier of bosses or beat your opponents in pvp.

People are taking breaks from Guild Wars 2 because they fall into the trap of gold farming. "If I don't do Silverwastes, then I'm not really making gold," "If I don't do fractals...," so on and so forth. This is a valid way to farm because the game doesn't do a good job of just handing you gold; the markets would be in chaos. You are your own boss in Guild Wars 2, and you can do whatever your heart desires. Some people believe that means farming gold nonstop.

And that's where people find fatigue and boredom just waiting for them.

[Rasimir.6239]

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:The fact that threads like this exist and a (valid) advice given by many to OP is "take a break", is an issue in itself. Players "taking breaks" from grind burnouts are not guaranteed to come back and it's getting harder to "replenish the ranks" as an aging MMO. And being better than korean grinders doesn't say much, are these the standards we are holding GW2 up to these days? Its own developers used to have the bar higher than that when it all started.

" Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; " - Mike O'Brien , 2010.GW2 does not suck your life away grinding, unless you do so out of your own choice. I said it above and I'll say it again: You can get all the rewards that are awarded for "daily" style content in different ways. I can get all of them without doing any dailies, just as by-products of playing stuff I enjoy. To me that's the definition of efficiency: grabbing rewards without spending time on grabbing them, just by getting them automatically while enjoying myself in game. That's where GW2 excells, and that's turned out exactly as Mo has described it in that quote.

If somebody is so blinded by "efficiency" that they feel the need to grind unenjoyable content in this game rather than enjoying themselves and getting the rewards anyway, then there is next to nothing this game could change to make them enjoy their playtime while still keeping the enjoyment of many others that play this game. There is a multitude of ways to pretty much every reward in this game, and of course not all ways are equally enjoyable to everyone. Most likely the quickest path to a rewards is one that not a lot of people enjoy. It's natural, since with the variety of paths available they can't all take the same time to get there. But to take away the choice of paths because some players can't restrain themselves from grinding content they don't enjoy simply for perceiving it to be more "efficient" (whatever that means, to me it's still more efficient to play enjoyable content for an hour and get rewards as a by-product than grinding unfun content for half an hour for the same rewards) is a huge step back towards restricting paths to rewards and forcing more players to grind specific stuff rather than play what they enjoy.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think if you feel required to do anything in this game that you don't like, you should perhaps reprioritize some things. whats more important, getting stuff or having fun? you have the answer? well there you go, you solved your own problem.

[Kiso.8465]

I don't get what you want then? To give everyone free stuff? Why would they play the game if they get everything that you can get without putting effort in it or time? What to see the story once and then what? You get all the gear and you're max level what do you want Anet to implement?

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Genuinetheo.6591 said:

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:The fact that threads like this exist and a (valid) advice given by many to OP is "take a break", is an issue in itself. Players "taking breaks" from grind burnouts are not guaranteed to come back and it's getting harder to "replenish the ranks" as an aging MMO. And being better than korean grinders doesn't say much, are these the standards we are holding GW2 up to these days? Its own developers used to have the bar higher than that when it all started.

" Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; " - Mike O'Brien , 2010.

That quote still holds true to this day. Level 80 exotics will take you through most of the game, unless you plan on doing fractals or raids. Take a korean MMO, for example... you're farming nonstop to upgrade your gear to hit the next tier of bosses or beat your opponents in pvp.

People are taking breaks from Guild Wars 2 because they fall into the trap of

gold farming

. "If I don't do Silverwastes, then I'm not really making gold," "If I don't do fractals...," so on and so forth. This is a valid way to farm because the game doesn't do a good job of just handing you gold; the markets would be in chaos. You are your own boss in Guild Wars 2, and you can do whatever your heart desires. Some people believe that means farming gold nonstop.

And that's where people find fatigue and boredom just waiting for them.

You assume that gear grind is only applicable when we are talking about power. You get BiS gear in this game relatively early but skins and customization take its place as the endgame goal. There is a reason people call this game "fashion wars", it is a big part of its endgame loop for PVE.

I agree that people fall into the "trap" of gold farming and get jaded. But why is it happening? Why do all these people feel compelled to farm their eyes out in Istan or SW? To me the answer is obvious. Gold is the only meaningful reward in the game. The majority of new "shinies" are entering the game through the gem store. In order to keep up with this, with the exhange on the rise for years now, players feel the need to farm gold. If they don't, they are left with the pitiful amount of gear that enters the game via LS every 4 months. When was the last time you saw something exciting after opening that champ bag? When that changes then people will start playing the game again instead of focusing on gold so much.

[Leo G.4501]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Genuinetheo.6591 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:The fact that threads like this exist and a (valid) advice given by many to OP is "take a break", is an issue in itself. Players "taking breaks" from grind burnouts are not guaranteed to come back and it's getting harder to "replenish the ranks" as an aging MMO. And being better than korean grinders doesn't say much, are these the standards we are holding GW2 up to these days? Its own developers used to have the bar higher than that when it all started.

" Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; " - Mike O'Brien , 2010.

That quote still holds true to this day. Level 80 exotics will take you through most of the game, unless you plan on doing fractals or raids. Take a korean MMO, for example... you're farming nonstop to upgrade your gear to hit the next tier of bosses or beat your opponents in pvp.

People are taking breaks from Guild Wars 2 because they fall into the trap of

gold farming

. "If I don't do Silverwastes, then I'm not really making gold," "If I don't do fractals...," so on and so forth. This is a valid way to farm because the game doesn't do a good job of just handing you gold; the markets would be in chaos. You are your own boss in Guild Wars 2, and you can do whatever your heart desires. Some people believe that means farming gold nonstop.

And that's where people find fatigue and boredom just waiting for them.

You assume that gear grind is only applicable when we are talking about power. You get BiS gear in this game relatively early but skins and customization take its place as the endgame goal. There is a reason people call this game "fashion wars", it is a big part of its endgame loop for PVE.

I agree that people fall into the "trap" of gold farming and get jaded. But why is it happening? Why do all these people feel compelled to farm their eyes out in Istan or SW? To me the answer is obvious. Gold is the only meaningful reward in the game. The majority of new "shinies" are entering the game through the gem store. In order to keep up with this, with the exhange on the rise for years now, players feel the need to farm gold. If they don't, they are left with the pitiful amount of gear that enters the game via LS every 4 months. When was the last time you saw something exciting after opening that champ bag? When that changes then people will start playing the game again instead of focusing on gold so much.

The problem with this line of thinking is two-fold.

One, if we take your rationalization as the current perspective, then GW2 is the height of P2W since cash can not only obtain gold but also gems. I feel this would be a hard stretch of a perspective to take and ultimately kind of defeats the perspective of "too much grind". It's it's too much grind, then get a real job which has a much better return on your time investment and then turn that cash into progress. If you have a working car, you can literally earn a month's progress in an afternoon working Lift.

For two, considering how subjective fashion is, it's only reinforced that you dictate your own grind in GW2. If you consider one or two fashionable skins as your goal, slowly grinding to obtain them is one-part purpose of logging into the game and one-part enjoyment from anticipation of getting it and eventually obtaining it. If you consider skins as a collect-a-thon built for the OCD riddled individuals who have to obtain everything, then you've got a mess on your hands. While there's nothing wrong with wanting to fill out your wardrobe with every option, taking it a step further and feeling you NEED those skins because of how great they look is beginning to push into the realm of envy which is a vice on a personal level. You may WANT those skins, but you certainly don't NEED them thus you don't NEED to grind to get them.

The business model for MMOs is often getting players to grind for things they want or need in-game. If Anet somehow tricked players into believing they NEED skins, then perhaps they are far more clever than people (don't) give them credit for.

[Rasimir.6239]

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:I agree that people fall into the "trap" of gold farming and get jaded. But why is it happening? Why do all these people feel compelled to farm their eyes out in Istan or SW? To me the answer is obvious. Gold is the only meaningful reward in the game. The majority of new "shinies" are entering the game through the gem store.This game has a lot more meaningful rewards than gold. There is so much you can gain in game that gives you both shinies (skins, minis, titles, ...) and the satisfaction of gaining said shinies that this can keep you busy without either gold farming or gem store purchases for a long time.

Figuring out events, scavenger hunts, fractal mechanics and more is playing the game, and it takes time, sometimes more, sometimes less. If you prefer to work through a Dulfy checklist to grab the "shinies" in the least time possible, you are robbing yourself of a huge part of gameplay, enjoyment, exploration,sense of achievement, and "rewarding" rewards.

I have to admit I've never gotten why so many players see gold as their primary goal. If you reduce the game to "grind gold, buy gemstore stuff" it's no wonder you find little enjoyment in it. This game is so much more, but if getting gold and shopping for gemstore pixels is all you can think of, then I can see where the game gets stale quickly.

[Genuinetheo.6591]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Genuinetheo.6591 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:The fact that threads like this exist and a (valid) advice given by many to OP is "take a break", is an issue in itself. Players "taking breaks" from grind burnouts are not guaranteed to come back and it's getting harder to "replenish the ranks" as an aging MMO. And being better than korean grinders doesn't say much, are these the standards we are holding GW2 up to these days? Its own developers used to have the bar higher than that when it all started.

" Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; " - Mike O'Brien , 2010.

That quote still holds true to this day. Level 80 exotics will take you through most of the game, unless you plan on doing fractals or raids. Take a korean MMO, for example... you're farming nonstop to upgrade your gear to hit the next tier of bosses or beat your opponents in pvp.

People are taking breaks from Guild Wars 2 because they fall into the trap of

gold farming

. "If I don't do Silverwastes, then I'm not really making gold," "If I don't do fractals...," so on and so forth. This is a valid way to farm because the game doesn't do a good job of just handing you gold; the markets would be in chaos. You are your own boss in Guild Wars 2, and you can do whatever your heart desires. Some people believe that means farming gold nonstop.

And that's where people find fatigue and boredom just waiting for them.

You assume that gear grind is only applicable when we are talking about power. You get BiS gear in this game relatively early but skins and customization take its place as the endgame goal. There is a reason people call this game "fashion wars", it is a big part of its endgame loop for PVE.

I agree that people fall into the "trap" of gold farming and get jaded. But why is it happening? Why do all these people feel compelled to farm their eyes out in Istan or SW? To me the answer is obvious. Gold is the only meaningful reward in the game. The majority of new "shinies" are entering the game through the gem store. In order to keep up with this, with the exhange on the rise for years now, players feel the need to farm gold. If they don't, they are left with the pitiful amount of gear that enters the game via LS every 4 months. When was the last time you saw something exciting after opening that champ bag? When that changes then people will start playing the game again instead of focusing on gold so much.

Meaning is always subjective. I think you'll find there are very few people who truly grasp meaning, and purpose, from repetitive day to day functions. Either way, I didn't want this to break out and spiral into something that could be irrelevant. I was only concerned about the possibility of someone growing tired of the game, for what I personally believe to be all the wrong reasons.

[Obtena.7952]

@Stalkingwolf.6035 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@Stalkingwolf.6035 said:

@phs.6089 said:What exactly burns you out grinding? 3 daily tasks that take 15 minutes maximum?he means the daily rewards from metas.

sometimes i have the same feeling. do i want to have fun or play my metas for the rewards. Fun is more important. Play want you want, because if you dont, you burn out.IMO this game is pure grind. Grind Wars 2. But you have a clear target and can keep working on it.

You don't know what grind is, no offence.

you think you do, but you don't.

compared to other west MMOs, Guild Wars 2 is very grindy. don't compare it to east MMOs.

I have to disagree with that. There is NOTHING in this game I have to grind for to play it endgame. Maybe your definition of grind is unique, but as how Anet sold this game to players, they have stuck to it and it still is true.

Of course, if you WANT something exceptional to push to top gear states, you have to work to get it. Then again, I wouldn't classify it grindy because you have a variety of ways to obtain the items you need to get what you want ... even the option to basically outright buy most of what need you make it if you really want. I really don't see any validity to your statement here.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Genuinetheo.6591 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:The fact that threads like this exist and a (valid) advice given by many to OP is "take a break", is an issue in itself. Players "taking breaks" from grind burnouts are not guaranteed to come back and it's getting harder to "replenish the ranks" as an aging MMO. And being better than korean grinders doesn't say much, are these the standards we are holding GW2 up to these days? Its own developers used to have the bar higher than that when it all started.

" Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; " - Mike O'Brien , 2010.

That quote still holds true to this day. Level 80 exotics will take you through most of the game, unless you plan on doing fractals or raids. Take a korean MMO, for example... you're farming nonstop to upgrade your gear to hit the next tier of bosses or beat your opponents in pvp.

People are taking breaks from Guild Wars 2 because they fall into the trap of

gold farming

. "If I don't do Silverwastes, then I'm not really making gold," "If I don't do fractals...," so on and so forth. This is a valid way to farm because the game doesn't do a good job of just handing you gold; the markets would be in chaos. You are your own boss in Guild Wars 2, and you can do whatever your heart desires. Some people believe that means farming gold nonstop.

And that's where people find fatigue and boredom just waiting for them.

You assume that gear grind is only applicable when we are talking about power. You get BiS gear in this game relatively early but skins and customization take its place as the endgame goal. There is a reason people call this game "fashion wars", it is a big part of its endgame loop for PVE.

I agree that people fall into the "trap" of gold farming and get jaded. But why is it happening? Why do all these people feel compelled to farm their eyes out in Istan or SW? To me the answer is obvious. Gold is the only meaningful reward in the game. The majority of new "shinies" are entering the game through the gem store. In order to keep up with this, with the exhange on the rise for years now, players feel the need to farm gold. If they don't, they are left with the pitiful amount of gear that enters the game via LS every 4 months. When was the last time you saw something exciting after opening that champ bag? When that changes then people will start playing the game again instead of focusing on gold so much.

The problem with this line of thinking is two-fold.

One, if we take your rationalization as the current perspective, then GW2 is the height of P2W since cash can not only obtain gold but also gems. I feel this would be a hard stretch of a perspective to take and ultimately kind of defeats the perspective of "too much grind". It's it's too much grind, then get a real job which has a much better return on your time investment and then turn that cash into progress. If you have a working car, you can literally earn a month's progress in an afternoon working Lift.

For two, considering how subjective fashion is, it's only reinforced that you dictate your own grind in GW2. If you consider one or two fashionable skins as your goal, slowly grinding to obtain them is one-part purpose of logging into the game and one-part enjoyment from anticipation of getting it and eventually obtaining it. If you consider skins as a collect-a-thon built for the OCD riddled individuals who have to obtain everything, then you've got a mess on your hands. While there's nothing wrong with wanting to fill out your wardrobe with every option, taking it a step further and feeling you NEED those skins because of how great they look is beginning to push into the realm of envy which is a vice on a personal level. You may WANT those skins, but you certainly don't NEED them thus you don't NEED to grind to get them.

The business model for MMOs is often getting players to grind for things they want or need in-game. If Anet somehow tricked players into believing they NEED skins, then perhaps they are far more clever than people (don't) give them credit for.

I don't think GW2 is p2w because while it is selling many things, power was never one of them. We can't pretend customization is NOT a huge part of its endgame loop though, for PVE at least. And I can afford this "gem boosted" progress fine, no need for Lift driving. I just, and maybe I'm weird, don't think "playing" the cash store qualifies as gameplay. Maybe because I grew up playing games where you earned that cool new sword by playing the actual game.

Technically speaking you don't NEED anything in a video game but an mmo needs gameplay goals to keep players in it. It's interesting you mentioned envy though, since it's well documented mmos aim to create that feeling to drive microtransactions.

I'm aware of the business model, I just thought this was supposed to be the revolutionary mmo to break the mold. For me, it came close in its early days but has been steering towards becoming just one of many for years now.

[joneirikb.7506]

@Mewcifer.5198 said:

@"joneirikb.7506" said:I've suggested/mentioned before the idea of changing the entire reward structure to give the same rewards for anything you do in the game (other than standing afk), and what kind of consequences it would have on the game.

A simplified short version: Remove all current rewards and drops etc, then make a sort of "reward track" for the entire game, and have that drop all the usual stuff (money, gear, mats, etc). As long as you have a certain threshold of activity you're progressing on the reward track, at the same pace for everyone. Unique rewards (skins and stuff) from AP and collections etc would still obviously be stand alone, might even be a couple of different (un-lockable) reward tracks for later with a focus on different things, but the first one should basically be focused on mats+gold.

This means that anyone (using the same reward track) would be getting the same amount of rewards no matter what they do, as long as they stay active, this means that anyone doing fractals, metas in hot, or killing scales in queensdale would get the same reward.

The interesting part about this would be how it shaped players behavior, how many would keep doing what they still do, how many would go do what they wanted to do, and how many would sit in starter maps upholding min participation just for the rewards? A lot of people would likely also get very demotivated, when they feel that anything they do isn't any more rewarding the killing centaurs in the same spot all day.

Human psychology is weird (and interesting), and never makes sense.

People would still call this a grind. People who are obsessed with squeezing every little reward out of the game they can (like refusing to not do dailies because the dailies are there and so they

must

be done) will feel like they

have

to play as much as they can in their spare time to get as much reward from the game as they possibly can. And if the rewards are not tied to any particular thing in the game, people will just repeatedly do the same mindnumbingly easy thing they can think of because "efficiency" and then it becomes grinding.

That was the point of this idea, they could do that (if they wanted), but they wouldn't get any more reward than doing literally anything else in the game. At that point, the only reason they grind, is because they choose to do so. (And also my comments about Scales and Centaurs for ex)

But it would also completely shut down any sense that "I have to do X to gain the most rewards." since absolutely anything would give the same amount of rewards (due to the same reward track with a cap on how fast/slow it progress). This means you could potentially earn as much spending an entire day doing Jumping Puzzles, as doing the RIBA farm in SW.

At that point: rewards = time spent doing anything.

Which honestly isn't very different from how it is now, you'll make more all over spending twice as much time doing RIBA than following "a usual daily pattern" because Daily-Patterns are designed around time efficiency, the most value out of as little time as possible, and not Total Possible Earning.

Anyways, personally I'd love to see an idea like this implemented just to observe all the ways humans would react to it, and how they'd change (or not) their in-game behavior patterns around it.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Gehenna.3625 said:You say there's very little grind in this game but I would disagree. People will of course have different thresholds and definitions of grind but this game is very much built around repeating the same things over and over.

Now I'm not sure which daily/weekly rewards you're talking about. The normal log in and daily rewards are very easy to get so that wouldn't be it. Could you specify which rewards you speak of?

GW2 has grinds, but in my opinion, they are completely optional. APs, collections, ascended gear, and legendary weapons/armor are all 100% optional, and a player can see every piece of content in GW2, including open world PvE, T1 Fractals, Raids, WvW and sPvP, without needing any of the above.

You don't even need to do your daily completionist for 2g / day if you don't mind taking out your credit card.