Why all the hostility?

[Celsith.2753]

@"FrigginPaco.4178" said:And the thing is I did witness players "having a problem" with people just being there. I know they're very invested in the game mode, but I should have taken some >screenshots to show this better... and yes, of course that doesn't go for every WvW player, but man... judging by some of these posts, you wouldn't think so.

I did forget in my post that many people are upset because they simply can't play and getting quite ..vocal about it. Personally i've been playing something else. While it's frustrating - and I can't imagine how frustrating for the people who only have an hour or two to play - I do try to remember its not the players fault that wvw cant be set up as a mega map like pve.They could all join the ktrain map though, (yay finally a use for desertedbl), or be willing to hop out of a map if the server theyre on wants to try to defend something. Respect goes both ways.

[Warkind.6745]

The influx of new players is probably the only great part of this release. Some don't care about anything other than their reward track and focus solely on capping because they've been here before for gifts of battles and have approximate ideas of what to do; a lot of these people have soured themselves against both WvW and the community.

The rest seem like they've never been here before and wander around in groups fighting whatever they see. This is great; I've had a lot of good fights because the map is filled with people who just run straight into combat, even if it's in the middle of nowhere, and then stay until someone wipes.

[Naxos.2503]

@Celsith.2753 said:

@"FrigginPaco.4178" said:And the thing is I

did

witness players "having a problem" with people just being there. I know they're very invested in the game mode, but I should have taken some >screenshots to show this better... and yes, of course that doesn't go for every WvW player, but man... judging by some of these posts, you wouldn't think so.

I did forget in my post that many people are upset because they simply can't play and getting quite ..vocal about it. Personally i've been playing something else. While it's frustrating - and I can't imagine how frustrating for the people who only have an hour or two to play - I do try to remember its not the players fault that wvw cant be set up as a mega map like pve.They could all join the ktrain map though, (yay finally a use for desertedbl), or be willing to hop out of a map if the server theyre on wants to try to defend something. Respect goes both ways.

I myself took the opportunity to re-acclimate myself with the edge of the mist map, I completed half the new achievements there even, it was nice to see the map bustling with people, shame the reward track dont progress on that map, I suspect that would have atleast alleviated the queues

[neven.3785]

I didn't see much hostility on bg towards others, just people trying to trick people to go to os.

Team chat is a chat lobby in a PvP zone, it's pretty naive to expect no frustration and anger voiced. While I did see some true anger at how broken this patch was for people who actually play wvw, it was mostly kept to discord channels vs team chat.

I actually saw a couple regular map trolls leading zergs around for objectives needed, rather than being themselves, so it's surprising to hear people are so angry about their own inability to block a select few who may or may not have been offensive.

As for me I kept my cool despite not being able to play with my guild mates because so many PVEers filled the queues and were trying to treat wvw like istan vs unlocking, getting a camp and going to eotm. Why didn't my guild go to eotm? Because ktrains are boring and I don't farm in PvE for a reason

[style.6173]

From what I saw, most of the toxicity was from people that I never heard of before. It is very likely people who came into the map with no WvW experience and got frustrated.

[zinkz.7045]

@Zexanima.7851 said:it's a competitive mode played by competitive people who want to win.

Funniest thing I've heard today, thanks.

[kash.9213]

At this point, most players probably know about WvW queues and have probably clogged them up before for expansions and whatever, people know what they're doing for the most part. I don't take a spot in raids that are announced for experienced players because there's only so many spots and I'd be kicked even if I did.

Apart from that, if you do WvW even sparsely, you should know what Team chat is about at this point and to make a thread like this talking about a toxic community because some troll hurt your feelings then this whole thread is a waste of time. Do your homework next time, it's not a big deal but you're making it sound like it's some epidemic we need to figure out.

[JustANoob.2798]

@"Naxos.2503" said:In my opinion, the argument that newbie players are detrimental to veterans because they dont know how to play is rather slim at best.

True experts use clueless players as bait or meatshields. They dont complain because they cannot control them, they simply account for the fact they Wont control them, and simply assume they'll draw attention of opponents regardless, which gives experienced players opportunities to strike elsewhere.

That said, taking the time to mentor new blood is a much more interesting outcome. My point is that there really is no downside to it, provided you're clever about the situation.

Fair enough, the queues are an issue, but it'll normalize in a few days. If anything, it's a signal that the limit should be increased, and performance should be improved. If it takes that little to make the server kneel, then the wishes of the WvW communities for more players, and eventually a thriving, experienced playerbase is dead in the water. Use it to push for infrastructure improvement.

This is my opinion also. Regular WvW players can look at it this way. The PvE crowd can be seen as one of 2 things. If they are an ally then they are cannon fodder. If they are on the other server then they are easy targets. If they are on your server, following your zerg, be kind and help them out a little. Hey, look at it this way, if you help them out a little they will get done faster and be gone from your BL =)

I do have a problem with everyone stereotyping PvE players. We aren't all totally clueless. I used to WvW quite often. Then we got an update and everything went Desert. I didn't like Desert so I quit going there. Maybe I don't have the "correct" build but I am not totally clueless. I have gotten very good at following the Tag and doing the right thing. Heck I even grab supplies and help build catapults and such. I did actually manage to kill someone while I was solo today, although they might have just been one of the new crowd lol

[MiniMe.1960]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

As I said in my post, I'm not defending toxic behavior, ...

Maybe you should defend toxic behavior. If people would be more toxic, people wouldn't be offended by every crap. Why is everyone so fast offended? Why is everyone so weak nowadays and do you take pride in it? Back in the days when i was young we used to flame the crap out of each other and no-one took it actually serious. I miss the old days. Man i'm so old.On the bright side, looks like i'm a minority. Let's see if i can sue someone :)

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Naxos.2503 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:The problem is when people like me, solo roamers and wvw only players wanted to play the gamemode they like and have to wait 2 hours queue because the slots are occupied by pve heroes who just want the mount.

Why I have to wait 2 hours to play my gamemode?

Yesterday it was over 100 manQ, today 50-60 manQ and still I had to give up and exit the game because too long wait.Hopefully tomorrow and the next day the majority of those pve heroes who just afk in the spawn area go back to kill their trash mobs and leave space for the people who actually wana play the gamemode.

Again, that kind of wording and blaming is not really helpful in any way. I'm in the same boat, I'm just being patient and seeing the positive points of it. It also reinforce my belief that the game having had queues whenever the reset occurs is a Bad Thing that is not meant to be normal. The fact it was not addressed led us to having the same queue problem now. More maps would have also helped split the queues. But the lag present in any WvW map itself shows that even if you're in, when queues dont matter, the servers are unable to bear the maximum load they're allowed, which in itself is an issue.

Again, the fault doesn't lie in the players who want their armored cats, and the people who are genuinely enjoying their time and discovering the mode, it falls on the

infrastructure shortcoming

, and if the WvW Community want overall improvement, blaming the potential new blood it so wanted will not help. What we should do is use the outcome to point and ask for improvement to capitalize on the publicity, as well as getting new blood, to get better performance and more map variety.Moaning doesn't help in any way,

constructive criticism

and ideas, at least carry the discussion toward Something

meaningful.

This will be a bit of a paradox but, first, thank you for trying to have sensible discussion in this storm. At the same time however, that sensibility likely comes from that you do not see the history or subject matter at hand.

You have to understand that the frustrations the WvW community has is that it has been giving Anet constructive criticism and meaningful discussion specifically aimed at those infrastructure shortcommings for 7 years and it has largely been ignored while they have thrown the occassional crumb from the table in form of things like Warclaws. Maps, like you mention, we were told the other week not to expect, even though new maps come with every LS. That is what this entire storm is about. Mistreatment and unfairness.

That is what the WvW community's displeasure with the developers is about and whatever animosity between the PvE and WvW/PvP communities is about. The PvE communities are given regular updates and the PvP communities are not. The PvE communities are thus more likely to defend the developers and the PvP communities are more likely to criticize them. WvW players also tend to see PvE players as spoiled brats and PvE players see WvW players as ungrateful delinquents. They don't see that it is hard to be grateful for crumbs off their table.

As any community it may be hard to discern some sort of consensus if you do not follow them close enough, but to everyone who does these things are glaringly obvious. People now say that there is no consensus based on what gets posted on this forum, however, anyone with a clue knows that the top priorities from a community perspective are queues, population balance, scoring, class balance/meta etc. Those very infrastructural things. Those are the recurring themes here outside of the storm and they have been such for a whopping 7 years. No one here is asking for bi-monthly fully fledged content updates or six raid wings of content. We simply ask for broken stuff to be fixed and for us to be considered when balance passes are made so our game mode is not made worse just to make communities from other modes happy. That's literally all we ask for, yet we get Warclaws. Thus, a good deal of respect for the displeasure and outcries would be healthy.

Alliances? Sure, they are in the working but they will not fix these things alone. They are also not here yet despite 7 years of constructive meaningful discussion and soon 18 months since announcement. 18 months is quite a long time even if the scope of the change is sizable. Alliances may be big, but it's not an expansion-sized change or new-game sized change. This mode is based on the RvR from DaoC. It took 25 people 18 months to make DaoC, the entire game. What does that say about Arenanet's commitment to WvW?

So this has nothing to do with new players comming in, those players being inexperienced or casual. It has everything to do with lack of attention, being thrown crumbs off the table and the attitudes of the people who comes in. Your attiude seems pretty good, so I'll bother writing this out for the 100th time.

All that you are suggesting that we do is exactly what we have been doing for 7 years and we have been given shit in return, shit and crumbs, like Warclaws.

[Naxos.2503]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:The problem is when people like me, solo roamers and wvw only players wanted to play the gamemode they like and have to wait 2 hours queue because the slots are occupied by pve heroes who just want the mount.

Why I have to wait 2 hours to play my gamemode?

Yesterday it was over 100 manQ, today 50-60 manQ and still I had to give up and exit the game because too long wait.Hopefully tomorrow and the next day the majority of those pve heroes who just afk in the spawn area go back to kill their trash mobs and leave space for the people who actually wana play the gamemode.

Again, that kind of wording and blaming is not really helpful in any way. I'm in the same boat, I'm just being patient and seeing the positive points of it. It also reinforce my belief that the game having had queues whenever the reset occurs is a Bad Thing that is not meant to be normal. The fact it was not addressed led us to having the same queue problem now. More maps would have also helped split the queues. But the lag present in any WvW map itself shows that even if you're in, when queues dont matter, the servers are unable to bear the maximum load they're allowed, which in itself is an issue.

Again, the fault doesn't lie in the players who want their armored cats, and the people who are genuinely enjoying their time and discovering the mode, it falls on the

infrastructure shortcoming

, and if the WvW Community want overall improvement, blaming the potential new blood it so wanted will not help. What we should do is use the outcome to point and ask for improvement to capitalize on the publicity, as well as getting new blood, to get better performance and more map variety.Moaning doesn't help in any way,

constructive criticism

and ideas, at least carry the discussion toward Something

meaningful.

This will be a bit of a paradox but, first, thank you for trying to have sensible discussion in this storm. At the same time however, that sensibility likely comes from that you do not see the history or subject matter at hand.

You have to understand that the frustrations the WvW community has is that it

has been giving Anet constructive criticism and meaningful discussion specifically aimed at those infrastructure shortcommings for 7 years

and it has largely been ignored while they have thrown the occassional crumb from the table in form of things like Warclaws. Maps, like you mention, we were told the other week not to expect, even though new maps come with every LS. That is what this entire storm is about. Mistreatment and unfairness.

That is what the WvW community's displeasure with the developers is about and whatever animosity between the PvE and WvW/PvP communities is about. The PvE communities are given regular updates and the PvP communities are not. The PvE communities are thus more likely to defend the developers and the PvP communities are more likely to criticize them. WvW players also tend to see PvE players as spoiled brats and PvE players see WvW players as ungrateful delinquents.

As any community it may be hard to discern some sort of consensus if you do not follow them close enough, but to everyone who does these things are glaringly obvious. People now say that there is no consensus based on what gets posted on this forum, however, anyone with a clue knows that the top priorities from a community perspective are queues, population balance, scoring, class balance/meta etc. Those very infrastructural things. Those are the recurring themes here outside of the storm and they have been such for a measily 7 years. No one here is asking for bi-monthly fully fledged content updates or six raid wings of content. We simply ask for broken stuff to be fixed and for us to be considered when balance passes are made so our game mode is not made worse just to make communities from other modes happy. That's literally all we ask for, yet we get Warclaws. Thus, a good deal of respect for the displeasure and outcries would be healthy.

Alliances? Sure, they are in the working but they will not fix these things alone. The are also no here yet despite 7 years of constructive meaningful discussion and soon 18 months since announcement. 18 months is quite a long time even if the scope of the change is sizable. Alliances may be big, but it's not an expansion-sized change or new-game sized change. This mode is based on the RvR from DaoC. It took 25 people 18 months to make DaoC, the entire game. What does that say about Arenanet's commitment to WvW?

So this has nothing to do with new players comming in, those players being inexperienced or casual. It has everything to do with lack of attention, being thrown crumbs off the table and the attitudes of the people who comes in. Your attiude seems pretty good, so I'll bother writing this out for the 100th time.

Oh dont worry, I know that perfectly well, I've mentionned some of those issues myself before. I've been in the game for 5 years, even if I played far more casually then than I do now, and even my WvW capacity stayed casual (rank 30, playing once or twice a week depending on work). Those issues have been frequently lamented on, and the only takeaway that seems to have gone through is that there werent enough players in WvW. In a way what they did address it, but it's essentially like if we've been telling them the ship has been sinking for days, and they've gotten us all another floor on the ship, the leak is still there, and so is the water.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@"Zexanima.7851" said:not on the people who just want to play the game the way they want to play it.it is on them tho. afking in spawn is 100% the players fault, and how exactly is afking considered "playing the game" lol. would reducing the time it takes for a player to get kicked from afking help? yes. how much time are we talking about tho? what if someone has to go to the bathroom or do something real quick and they come back only to realize they got kicked for afk and the queue is at 80?

[Naxos.2503]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Zexanima.7851" said:not on the people who just want to play the game the way they want to play it.it is on them tho. afking in spawn is 100% the players fault, and how exactly is afking considered "playing the game" lol. would reducing the time it takes for a player to get kicked from afking help? yes. how much time are we talking about tho? what if someone has to go to the bathroom or do something real quick and they come back only to realize they got kicked for afk and the queue is at 80?

To be fair, inactive people should get no progress, pip, experience or track, the fact that it does in any capacity baffles me. It's counterproductive.

[Zexanima.7851]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Zexanima.7851" said:not on the people who just want to play the game the way they want to play it.it is on them tho. afking in spawn is 100% the players fault, and how exactly is afking considered "playing the game" lol. would reducing the time it takes for a player to get kicked from afking help? yes. how much time are we talking about tho? what if someone has to go to the bathroom or do something real quick and they come back only to realize they got kicked for afk and the queue is at 80?

As @Naxos.2503 mentioned, they could just not have people who are inactive gain progress. Say, if they are inactive for more than 10-15 minutes. Once again, this isn't a player issue this is an Anet issue. Its kind of comparable to afk fishing in other games (not that I support it in any means). If the developers allow it, then it's perfectly acceptable for the players to do. I'm not suggesting that it should be allowed. People should really focus their criticism at Anet to try and encourage something constructive (if that works or not is another story). They need to not flame their fellow players for playing the game (or not playing) it within the rules.

[Hoxworth.7318]

Its in every single thread that we are the toxic ones, But nobody ever makes a thread about the berserker geared PvE players that barg in with 0 regard for wvw or its rules or metas, demand they get a squadspot on lets say, a base ranger that has little value to the squad and then proceed to whine if you tell them anything otherwise. They tell you that they dont want to spend money gearing a wvw build, even though a proper wvw build is FULL BERSERKER rev. So in that aspect the newcomers coming in have 2 sides also. But magically its always the PvE side that makes the threads

[Naxos.2503]

@"YouWillHide.9847" said:Its in every single thread that we are the toxic ones, But nobody ever makes a thread about the berserker geared PvE players that barg in with 0 regard for wvw or its rules or metas, demand they get a squadspot on lets say, a base ranger that has little value to the squad and then proceed to whine if you tell them anything otherwise. They tell you that they dont want to spend money gearing a wvw build, even though a proper wvw build is FULL BERSERKER rev. So in that aspect the newcomers coming in have 2 sides also. But magically its always the PvE side that makes the threads

I'm firmly on the WvW side, and would have made a thread about the situation regardless, as it has been pointed out many times already, the anger is misdirected. The current infrastructure is not equipped to handle any of the new players the Warclaw was meant to bring to WvW, it was a shortsighted decision to go along with it and not address Any of the long standing issues. Neither the PvE should blame the WvW players for being "forced" into a game mode to get Something cool, nor should WvW should blame PvE players for acting clueless and ignorant of established rules and mechanics, and for clogging up the poorly managed infrastructure. Toxicity is General. It's been in PvE before the warclaw arrived, in the case of raids, and lately Fractals, and it's been in WvW long before Eternal battleground was put in. It wont be long before it occurs during World Boss Events and other more casual events, as long as there is a repeatable reward that can be farmed super fast by speed junkies. Toxicity is brought upon by a sole selfish desire for time efficiency at the expense of everything else. That is a common trait across all game modes, one that has only increased in the past year.

Some people actually handle their desire for efficiency much more maturely by bringing everyone up to speed, and encouraging them to stay at that speed. Deriding someone for not being at peak level does not encourage them to get on par, it encourage them to be salty, leave, and complain about the treatment they received. It's Something I wish the Community as a Whole, PvE, PvP and WvW understood. Unfortunately, few players are mature enough to understand, and fewer still are patient enough to care.

[RisenHowl.2419]

Personally I'm loving pve week, all those easy bags <3

[Naxos.2503]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Personally I'm loving pve week, all those easy bags <3

That's a much more positive Outlook at the situation yes :p

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:In my opinion, the argument that newbie players are detrimental to veterans because they dont know how to play is rather slim at best.

True experts use clueless players as bait or meatshields. They dont complain because they cannot control them, they Simply account for the fact they Wont control them, and simply assume they'll draw attention of opponents regardless, which gives experienced players opportunities to strike elsewhere.

That said, taking the time to mentor new blood is a much more interesting outcome. My point is that there really is no downside to it, provided you're clever about the situation.

Fair enough, the queues are an issue, but I'll normalize in a few days. If anything, it's a signal that the limit should be increased, and performance should be improved. If it takes that little to make the server kneel, then the wishes of the WvW communities for more players, and eventually a thriving, experienced playerbase is dead in the water. Use it to push for infrastructure improvement.

This is exactly how people should be thinking about things. I don't understand the queue argument myself, like you said it's a performance issue and not the players.

Anet needs to increase their limit and beef up their servers.

Maybe you can convince them of that. We’ve tried to for 6+ years.

Good luck.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:In my opinion, the argument that newbie players are detrimental to veterans because they dont know how to play is rather slim at best.

True experts use clueless players as bait or meatshields. They dont complain because they cannot control them, they Simply account for the fact they Wont control them, and simply assume they'll draw attention of opponents regardless, which gives experienced players opportunities to strike elsewhere.

That said, taking the time to mentor new blood is a much more interesting outcome. My point is that there really is no downside to it, provided you're clever about the situation.

Fair enough, the queues are an issue, but I'll normalize in a few days. If anything, it's a signal that the limit should be increased, and performance should be improved. If it takes that little to make the server kneel, then the wishes of the WvW communities for more players, and eventually a thriving, experienced playerbase is dead in the water. Use it to push for infrastructure improvement.

This is exactly how people should be thinking about things. I don't understand the queue argument myself, like you said it's a performance issue and not the players.

Anet needs to increase their limit and beef up their servers.

Maybe you can convince them of that. We’ve tried to for 6+ years.

Good luck.

But continuing to add items that exacerbate the problem isn’t a solution.

And that was a core concern with mounts.

[Naxos.2503]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@"Naxos.2503" said:In my opinion, the argument that newbie players are detrimental to veterans because they dont know how to play is rather slim at best.

True experts use clueless players as bait or meatshields. They dont complain because they cannot control them, they Simply account for the fact they Wont control them, and simply assume they'll draw attention of opponents regardless, which gives experienced players opportunities to strike elsewhere.

That said, taking the time to mentor new blood is a much more interesting outcome. My point is that there really is no downside to it, provided you're clever about the situation.

Fair enough, the queues are an issue, but I'll normalize in a few days. If anything, it's a signal that the limit should be increased, and performance should be improved. If it takes that little to make the server kneel, then the wishes of the WvW communities for more players, and eventually a thriving, experienced playerbase is dead in the water. Use it to push for infrastructure improvement.

This is exactly how people should be thinking about things. I don't understand the queue argument myself, like you said it's a performance issue and not the players.

Anet needs to increase their limit and beef up their servers.

Maybe you can convince them of that. We’ve tried to for 6+ years.

Good luck.

But continuing to add items that exacerbate the problem isn’t a solution.

And that was a core concern with mounts.

Agreed. If anything, the current situation is shining a very nasty spotlight into how much WvW need a better infrastructure right now. It'll also make it easier to get data with which to address the problem. I'll try and stay hopeful. Designing a mount from the ground up, with special abilities such as it has, takes time and investment. If anything, it Should mean that the WvW team is going to spend some time looking at the impact of their work, and potentially take the time to eliminate problems now that they were made self evident.

They have had a few articles made about Warclaw, it would be silly if people read that, though "oh boy that sounds awesome ! I wanna try it out" Only to face a 50+ Queue, investigate the forum to find if it's normal, and read all the comments of it being an almost decade long issue. It's bad publicity.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Naxos.2503 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:In my opinion, the argument that newbie players are detrimental to veterans because they dont know how to play is rather slim at best.

True experts use clueless players as bait or meatshields. They dont complain because they cannot control them, they Simply account for the fact they Wont control them, and simply assume they'll draw attention of opponents regardless, which gives experienced players opportunities to strike elsewhere.

That said, taking the time to mentor new blood is a much more interesting outcome. My point is that there really is no downside to it, provided you're clever about the situation.

Fair enough, the queues are an issue, but I'll normalize in a few days. If anything, it's a signal that the limit should be increased, and performance should be improved. If it takes that little to make the server kneel, then the wishes of the WvW communities for more players, and eventually a thriving, experienced playerbase is dead in the water. Use it to push for infrastructure improvement.

This is exactly how people should be thinking about things. I don't understand the queue argument myself, like you said it's a performance issue and not the players.

Anet needs to increase their limit and beef up their servers.

Maybe you can convince them of that. We’ve tried to for 6+ years.

Good luck.

But continuing to add items that exacerbate the problem isn’t a solution.

And that was a core concern with mounts.

Agreed.

If anything, the current situation is shining a very nasty spotlight into how much WvW need a better infrastructure right now. It'll also make it easier to get data with which to address the problem. I'll try and stay hopeful. Designing a mount from the ground up, with special abilities such as it has, takes time and investment. If anything, it Should mean that the WvW team is going to spend some time looking at the impact of their work, and potentially take the time to eliminate problems now that they were made self evident.

So,.. the WvW Cynic would say: ‘it takes the PvE crowd being upset to actually make a change’. (See ghost thief soloing a raid boss)

Things we have complained about for years, literally years, appear (and yes, perception is likely a large part of this) to be ignored until it affects the PvE crowd significantly enough to get a ‘fix’.

Now we both know that isn’t always true. But two of the concerns about Mounts that were feared ad nauseum prior to them being even talked about being a likelihood, have come to fruition.

• bypassing gates and walls
• Significant lag increase.

They have had a few articles made about Warclaw, it would be silly if people read that, though "oh boy that sounds awesome ! I wanna try it out" Only to face a 50+ Queue, investigate the forum to find if it's normal, and read all the comments of it being an almost decade long issue. It's bad publicity.

It’s only bad publicity if the ‘intended audience’ (which let’s be honest is the PvE crowd) is angered enough. Hasn’t happened so we won’t see changes.

[Zexanima.7851]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:In my opinion, the argument that newbie players are detrimental to veterans because they dont know how to play is rather slim at best.

True experts use clueless players as bait or meatshields. They dont complain because they cannot control them, they Simply account for the fact they Wont control them, and simply assume they'll draw attention of opponents regardless, which gives experienced players opportunities to strike elsewhere.

That said, taking the time to mentor new blood is a much more interesting outcome. My point is that there really is no downside to it, provided you're clever about the situation.

Fair enough, the queues are an issue, but I'll normalize in a few days. If anything, it's a signal that the limit should be increased, and performance should be improved. If it takes that little to make the server kneel, then the wishes of the WvW communities for more players, and eventually a thriving, experienced playerbase is dead in the water. Use it to push for infrastructure improvement.

This is exactly how people should be thinking about things. I don't understand the queue argument myself, like you said it's a performance issue and not the players.

Anet needs to increase their limit and beef up their servers.

Maybe you can convince them of that. We’ve tried to for 6+ years.

Good luck.

But continuing to add items that exacerbate the problem isn’t a solution.

And that was a core concern with mounts.

Agreed.

If anything, the current situation is shining a very nasty spotlight into how much WvW need a better infrastructure right now. It'll also make it easier to get data with which to address the problem. I'll try and stay hopeful. Designing a mount from the ground up, with special abilities such as it has, takes time and investment. If anything, it Should mean that the WvW team is going to spend some time looking at the impact of their work, and potentially take the time to eliminate problems now that they were made self evident.

So,.. the WvW Cynic would say: ‘it takes the PvE crowd being upset to actually make a change’. (See ghost thief soloing a raid boss)

Things we have complained about for years, literally years, appear (and yes, perception is likely a large part of this) to be ignored until it affects the PvE crowd significantly enough to get a ‘fix’.

Now we both know that isn’t always true. But two of the concerns about Mounts that were feared ad nauseum prior to them being even talked about being a likelihood, have come to fruition.

• bypassing gates and walls
• Significant lag increase.

They have had a few articles made about Warclaw, it would be silly if people read that, though "oh boy that sounds awesome ! I wanna try it out" Only to face a 50+ Queue, investigate the forum to find if it's normal, and read all the comments of it being an almost decade long issue. It's bad publicity.

It’s only bad publicity if the ‘intended audience’ (which let’s be honest is the PvE crowd) is angered enough. Hasn’t happened so we won’t see changes.

I won't deny that the mount was partly introduced to peak the interest of more non-WvW players but I think it defiantly was meant solely for the WvW crowd by it's design. Anet does need to seriously look into the technical and design issue with WvW but once again this is not PvE, or PvP, or WvW, or any players fault. This is something that Anet needs to fix and I think the biggest pain point currently is Anets serious lack of communication with the community.

[Voltekka.2375]

They should have never made the mount usable in pve. Or usable in any mode. But then again those skins wont sell themselves, will they

[Zexanima.7851]

@"jakt.9381" said:People need to grow the hell up. Some of us arent here to state our opinions with the worry that some people might be offended by our "toxicity". I am not going to adjust my behavior so that no one gets their feelings hurt over the things I say or do in my post or in game, nor should anyone. Honesty is always the best policy, and I expect everyone to do that. If my opinion hurts your feelings you can ignore it or provide a counter point. No one is forcing anyone to engage in interactions with anyone they dont want to. Why do we even need a thread for this?

What people say and do affect others and if you don't realize that or care that it does I would suggest reflecting on your self centeredness. There is a difference in honesty and being inconsiderate. People can ignore what you say but the impact of words is a very real thing, in this day and age if you haven't realized that already you probably need to do some researching. "We" don't need a thread like this, I just wanted to express my discontent in a public forum for all its worth (which I realize isn't a lot).