You know what really GRINDS MY GEARS?

[FyzE.3472]

People's builds are packed with maximum amount of condi cleanse just because of couple of builds out there that can destroy you if you don't. Just wait a bit. Let people think that it's not mandatory to have so much condi cleanse and go for other things instead. THEN you can remind them that no, condi builds are still there.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Derm.4932 said:tl;dr nerf all these good sider noders but buff my condi mirage. also take a bad class like weaver or renegade and say it needs buffs because i dont want to look biased pepega

GW2 PvP forum in a nutshell..always been like this..always will be, your comment is a nice fitting description

[Arheundel.6451]

@FyzE.3472 said:People's builds are packed with maximum amount of condi cleanse just because of couple of builds out there that can destroy you if you don't. Just wait a bit. Let people think that it's not mandatory to have so much condi cleanse and go for other things instead. THEN you can remind them that no, condi builds are still there.

The best part is when they tell you to L2P and add more condi clear to your build when you lose to a condi spam build...Yeah I promised myself I'd stop joining this drama circus that is this forum but....

[MrForz.1953]

That's probably the longest knee-jerk reaction I've seen from a recent nerf. I like the nerf on Gyros, and Healing Turret, and Elixir S, and the Inventions/Alchemy trait line, I just love it. Core engi definitely needs that.

[mortrialus.3062]

@MrForz.1953 said:That's probably the longest knee-jerk reaction I've seen from a recent nerf. I like the nerf on Gyros, and Healing Turret, and Elixir S, and the Inventions/Alchemy trait line, I just love it. Core engi definitely needs that.

Core, Elite, who cares? What matters is that

1. Every profession has at least one build that can be played at the meta level. Everything past 1 is gravy. We aren't even here yet until Elementalist gets buffs.
2. There are multiple viable options for every single role in conquest; Multiple viable Support, multiple viable Team Damage, Multiple viable roamers, and multiple viable 1vX dueling builds. Right now we need more support builds desperately.
3. If an elite specialization has a build that performs too well (Or several builds), core traits, skills and specializations are never, ever safe from being adjusted in response. When Scourge where eating people alive, when Firebrand had obscene support capabilities like Aegis on Tome 1 Auto Attacks, when Arenanet wanted to tone down Deadeye's opening burst capabilities, all of these build got adjusted not just through their elite specialization traits, weapons, and skills but also through their core specializations as well.

Also nothing in this post is kneejerk. For the vast majority of my criticisms, you can find posts of me talking about my thoughts going back to Path of Fire's release. Most of these are longstanding opinions I've had. I've hated Automatic Pet Knockdow, I've been perpetually annoyed by Ranger Longbow I've thought Healing Turret was too powerful of a healing skill, I've thought Overcharge Shot needed a better tell, all going back to Core Guild Wars 2.

[Chaith.8256]

What's the point of making a balance note if you address the sheer silliness of Unstoppable Union's potential 40% Unblockable uptime, but deliberately make no comment on something like Evasive Mirror's 2s Reflect on a 1.5s cd. What's the potential projectile blocking uptime of that? Yes I'm sure it would be great if Soulbeasts had reduced access to Unblockable but Mirage lowkey kept the Reflect uptime. You're too biased, IMO

Edit: If you say that just because something isn't meta definining, we still need to talk about the silly and unhealthy traits/mechanics, that's fine. We can operate under those parameters if you don't protect your Mirage class because it's not meta defining. Holo isn't meta defining, neither is Longbow SlB, yet that's pretty much the point of your balance note to address.

[Quadox.7834]

True that condition removal is overtuned (and the conditions themselves in some cases). Good times back when shatter Mesmer could run Rune of Lyssa as the only condition removal (90 sec cd).

[Mbelch.9028]

Holy yikes, batman...

Your post is literally "nerf anything that kills mirage or doesn't let me kill them."

Here's my five things in reaction to your post:

• Condi damage isn't weak. There are still hyper-viable condi builds.
• Warriors aren't power crept. They have received no buffs. Last meta, they were nonexistent. You're seeing them a bit more because condi mirage was knocked down a peg or two.
• Engineer's turret is fine. If anything, it needs potentially a small shave on its initial heal. That's all.
• Overcharged shot has a tell. If you can't see it to dodge it, you need to work on that yourself.
• I agree with you on weaver. Big sad that it is so bad.

[Trigr.6481]

Evasive mirror just needs to be changed to be 2 seconds of mirror upon a successful heal with a ICD of 15 seconds. It's current implementation is beyond absurd.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@MrForz.1953 said:That's probably the longest knee-jerk reaction I've seen from a recent nerf. I like the nerf on Gyros, and Healing Turret, and Elixir S, and the Inventions/Alchemy trait line, I just love it. Core engi definitely needs that.

Core, Elite, who cares? What matters is that

1. Every profession has at least one build that can be played at the meta level. Everything past 1 is gravy. We aren't even here yet until Elementalist gets buffs.
2. There are multiple viable options for every single role in conquest; Multiple viable Support, multiple viable Team Damage, Multiple viable roamers, and multiple viable 1vX dueling builds. Right now we need more support builds desperately.
3. If an elite specialization has a build that performs too well (Or several builds), core traits, skills and specializations are never, ever safe from being adjusted in response. When Scourge where eating people alive, when Firebrand had obscene support capabilities like Aegis on Tome 1 Auto Attacks, when Arenanet wanted to tone down Deadeye's opening burst capabilities, all of these build got adjusted not just through their elite specialization traits, weapons, and skills but also through their core specializations as well.

Also nothing in this post is kneejerk. For the vast majority of my criticisms, you can find posts of me talking about my thoughts going back to Path of Fire's release. Most of these are longstanding opinions I've had. I've hated Automatic Pet Knockdow, I've been perpetually annoyed by Ranger Longbow I've thought Healing Turret was too powerful of a healing skill, I've thought Overcharge Shot needed a better tell, all going back to Core Guild Wars 2.

But have found no faults in Mesmer apparently...

Interesting.

Now I know what you'll say, you'll imply that I don't think that there are any faults with Warrior. Not true. In fact one of my biggest complaints with Warrior, in regards to Spellbreaker, is that Full Counter, even if it hits nothing and just gets proc'd it will still apply a stack of Adrenal Health. In fact I think it applies the effects of any burst related traits with the exception of Magebane Tether despite not actually making contact with anything which I do not think should be happening. I can also level with you that, in the environment of sPvP and Conquest, Rampage could probably use a slight CD increase.

As for your problems with the class? No. This is what I have meant whenever I've referenced people complaining about the wrong things.

Like my boy Chaith suggested, you're too bias.

Also in regards to the discussion of mobility skills. You're right on that chaining sequence, yet still it requires the use of Rampage which puts it on CD and likely negates its use in the next, very likely immediate, fight after they disengage from you/the capture objective. Keep in mind that Warrior, as a melee class, would almost undoubtedly die without the mobility it currently has. Even if it uses most of it, there is still the issue of Ranger Longbow having an actual effective range of 1750 units rather than the 1500 that is shown that allows them to chase down the Warrior pretty well and still hit them. As far as actually engaging enemies? If it did not have these things Rangers, Dragonhunters, Deadeye's, even Holos with Rifle would be much more able to kite the Warrior around and not sweat about it. Bull's Charge used to not evade and as such saw less use because of this. It was too slow of a windup and would get CC'd through easily just like how people might try to bait a Rush from a Warrior just for an opportunity to CC through a very telegraphed and long animation.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I'm actually reading the post now, but I just needed to chime in that it kittening tickles my sides to hear a mesmer complaining about having to gapclose to engage a ranger when that is probably exactly how it feels to deal with a mesmer on any melee oriented class.

Welcome to the club m8 (whatever that means). Let's see what you're saying though~

[Quadox.7834]

@Chaith.8256 @Mbelch.9028 @"KryTiKaL.3125"

Of course it is not objective, the title is "You know what really grinds my gears", and the first sentence literally says "but really this is just stuff I hate". Couldn't be more obvious.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Chaith.8256 @Mbelch.9028 @"KryTiKaL.3125"

Of course it is not objective, the title is "You know what really grinds

my

gears", and the first sentence literally says "but really this is just stuff I hate". Couldn't be more obvious.

True, but they are also suggesting that these are balance issues in the game and need to be addressed. I will admit some things are, but not all.

For instance Ranger Longbow bothers me too, but only one skill and its for thematic reasons. Rapid Fire. On a Longbow. That fucking hurts me. You don't rapid fire longbows. I know they added it as a skill because of GW1's Preparation skill called Rapid Fire that gave you increased attack speed for a duration, but on the longbow? With 1500 (1750) range? Gross. Replace Rapid Fire with a single shot snipe skill and move Rapid Fire onto Shortbow or just get rid of it or add a utility/elite skill for it for increased attack speed...I'm sure they can think of something.

[Quadox.7834]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Chaith.8256 @Mbelch.9028 @KryTiKaL.3125

Of course it is not objective, the title is "You know what really grinds

my

gears", and the first sentence literally says "but really this is just stuff I hate". Couldn't be more obvious.

True, but they are also suggesting that these are balance issues in the game and need to be addressed. I will admit

some

things are, but not all.Sure.

For instance Ranger Longbow bothers me too, but only

one

skill and its for thematic reasons. Rapid Fire. On a Longbow. That kitten hurts me.

You don't rapid fire longbows

. I know they added it as a skill because of GW1's Preparation skill called Rapid Fire that gave you increased attack speed for a duration, but on the

longbow

? With 1500 (1750) range? Gross. Replace Rapid Fire with a single shot snipe skill and move Rapid Fire onto Shortbow

or

just get rid of it or add a utility/elite skill for it for increased attack speed...I'm sure they can think of something.It is also about the fact that projectile range in general is bugged, giving ranger LB a range of about 1900 instead of 1500.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

My thoughts are as follows. If it is not mentioned, assume that IMO the noted skill/line is fine and I have no particular comments on it.

Everytime I down any ranger ever on literally any build ever, I not only have to deal with their absolutely top tier downstate Thunderclap and Lick Wounds making them both difficult to stomp and impossible to ever try to rot, but also have to deal with them having double stomp prevention each and every time. I literally cannot count the number of times this has interrupted stomps. Any sort of Ranger Pet CC should be an active F2 skill for the pet and absolutely never just a passive skill they will roll through automatically off cooldown.

Don't you have mirror cloak stomps and distortion if you absolutely need that stomp?

3 Ranger Longbow Just In General2000 effective range because of how its projectiles arc, and a kit so straight forward literally every ranger opens each fight at 1200+ range with Point Blank Shot into Rapid Fire. It doesn't matter if they're brand new level 10 lowbies fighting mobs in PvE, or people who hit top 5 in ranked on Longbow Ranger. Literally every single one open with this combo every time its up.

Lel I love it

People talk about what is "Fun" to play against, or what is "healthy" for the game all time. But what I find least fun is getting blindsided and unblockably punted 400+ units by a Ranger over 1600 units away now and having to deal closing 1600 units while potentially having to avoid 10k Longbow Auto Attacks is the absolute worst this game has to offer. It doesn't matter even if you eventually close the gap and beat them into the dirt. And the fact that there is literally 0 difference in approach between how brand new players approach the kit and how top tier players approach the kit just reinforces how problematic it is.Point Blank Shot is the type of thing that, well, should be point blank. It should be rangers "out" when an enemy closes the gap on a ranger they risk getting chunked back 1200 units back, and something that should punish players for carelessly rushing rangers without any sort of answer to cancel their disengage. Not just something every ranger rolls off cooldown the second its up and open every fight with.

Lel I still love it its just so ironic

9 Gyros are Unpredictable and Unreadable.

Post rework all gyros are problematic. They either have too little wind up, no wind up at all, and aside from a couple of them you cannot see what they're doing in the heat of battle. Heal Gyro and Purgy Gyro in particular need active effects on the Scrapper's status bar, similar to Boonbeast and Warrior Stances or other active effects like False Oasis and Troll Unguent so players can see exactly what effects the scrapper has active on themselves, letting them know "Oh hey he's healing I should wait to use my bit damage dealing attacks until after he's finished healing. And I should hit him wit poison too to cancel out some of the healing." and "Oh hey he's using purge gyro I should hold off on damage dealing conditions until its done then move in to strike." Instead right now they're almost completely unreadable.

10 Sneak GyroAgain, this is my inner mesmer showing. This one gets it's own spot because of how outrageously and objectively overtuned this thing is now. It's effectively 18 seconds of party stealth, pulsed out over extremely useful tiny increments, that can be leaped and blasted into for more stealth, with no tell at all now, with less than half the cast time and half the cooldown of Mass Invisibility. Mass Invisibility in SPvP is 5 Allies, 2 second cast time, 5 seconds of stealth, 90 second cooldown. Sneak Gyro is less than 1 second activation, 18 seconds of party stealth, 45 second cooldown. Just writing this out should point out how out of whack this skill is.

Agreed in terms of tooltips. Add some tells to the gyros. As for functionality I think it's too early to tell regarding gyros in particular.

12 Magebane TetherIt just stacks too much might. If a Spellbreaker manages to land a burst skill or full counter on you, expect to see them at 25 stacks of might for the foreseeable future, at which point you can expect 8-10k Arcing Slices and Whirlwind Blades coming at you. On the other hand, with revenge counter and full counter so massively nerfed and loss aversion and enchantmant collapse never living up to their potential this is the only good spellbreaker grandmaster. I admit I'd rather see spellbreakers feel like people that break spells, eating heavy boon targets alive canceling out projectiles with easy, revealing stealthed targets, powering through conditions. But right now spelbreaker just feels like boring old power crept warrior and to me that's a real tragedy.

Agreed on magebane tether.

13 Reckless DodgeWarriors literally refuse to believe me when I tell them this easily crits for 3k in SPvP, unboosted by might and damage modifies like Peak Performance, even when I post screenshots of exactly that. And it's unblockable. I genuinely can't believe warriors were up in arms over 4k maximum potential Imaginary Axes and Chaos Vortexes when their own dodges do this and unblockable as well. It's not breaking the game, but to me its just funny in like a "WHY????" sort of way.

Yeah it can crit for close to 3k if you're glass, usually that happens with boosted damage though. Need to see pictures.People cared about imaginary axes -damage?-

14 Dagger StormOverall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well.

Meh, fine.

15 Elementalist in general.I'm personally so disappointed in SD Weaver. Weaver was a specialization I was crazy excited for, a chance for Guild Wars 2 to have a Magic Knight archetype. The type of character that wields a sword in one hand and throws out powerful explosive spells in the other. But sword ended up just being a boring weapon to play in both PvE and PvP and it's equally boring to play against. Elementalist in its current state just leaves PvP in general really devoid of interesting fun archetypes to play and fight against. We're all here playing the PvP game mode of a Swords and Sorcery Role Playing Game. And where is the sorcery? When you think fantasy game, one of the first thing that comes to mind is the mage / wizard, super squishy standing behind the front lines and chucking huge fireballs raining, just raining AoE death on his enemies. But that archetype doesn't exist in Guild Wars 2. Like at all. I personally think its time for DPS elementalists to get some sort of Righteous Instincts Core Guardian type of temporary bandaid so they can run Valkyrie amulet, having the benefit of great power, good ferocity and vitality while having great crit chance through traits. Something carefully thought out so they can run more vitality and toughness amulets and gain solid damage with just a bit more sturdiness to get them through the day but absolutely NOT help in their self healing and sustain and not just give builds like SD Weaver and Support Tempest more free damage on top of their very high ability to just reset the fight through self sustain.

I definitely don't want sword seeing buffs until its reworked into an actually interesting weapon to play and play against. But Scepter Fresh Air Weaver should absolutely be looked into for bringing up to par with other +1 burst roamers like Sic Em Soulbeast and Power Greatsword Mirage and staff should be looked at how it can fulfill the missing class fantasy niche Guild Wars 2's PvP is really lacking.

Generally agreed.

16 Condition Damage in general is weak.Yes, really.

mmm. Me thinks kneejerk, forgive me.That aside, If Arenanet would stop putting counterintuitive damage types on condition rotations so things could be counterplayed, I would be more willing to accept this. If Mirage was ONLY confusion or ONLY torment paired with the other jamming conditions and not able to stack both of those together in excess while also boasting the playstyle common to mirages, It would be much easier to counterplay and they wouldn't have to buff all of these stationary builds with cleanses that remove practically every condition in the game at once.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Thiefs dagger storm projectiles are proximity based. It throws up to 8 daggers. And how many daggers depends on how close you are, with the most being right on top of em. Getting away from it is quite literally the counter as the actual spin doesn't do damage

I agree with everything else. Im surprised Revenant is not on this list

[Vaeo.4097]

@OP I agree with all you points. Especially about ranger's longbow and pet cc and Alchemy+Invention notes.

The only exception is Bull's charge. Base idea of this skill looks ok for me. May be reduce damage a bit or slow down animation a bit. But I'd keep evasion and knockdown duration.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Vaeo.4097 said:slow down animation a bit

No. If you cant dodge bulls charge as it stands right now there's a problem and it isn't with the skill. Let's not make warrior evasion worse than it already is. We already struggle to fight the more kitey classes.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Thiefs dagger storm projectiles are proximity .

Didnt know this. if it only autos you if you are in range, no change to DS is necessary.

[BlackTruth.6813]

As much as I don't exactly like to pander to people, nerfing Reckless dodge and Bull's Charge is really a shave and legit won't change fundamentals.

The fact that only "Reckless dodge" and "Bull's Charge" are the things people are complaining about means they can't find a legitimate argument to say that Warrior is broken though.

[Snellibee.2761]

I think condition cleanse needs to be toned down, that will indirectly buff condition damage. Buffing condition damage itself would not be the right approach as classes like Revenant who have close to zero condi cleanse are already getting raped by condi spitting classes. increasing condi damage would just be one hell of a nerf to non condi cleanse builds.

To be honest I think condi cleanse should just act the way protection acts, instead of clearing all the condi's, just let them have reduced damage.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"Snellibee.2761" said:To be honest I think condi cleanse should just act the way protection acts, instead of clearing all the condi's, just let them have reduced damage.

You are only okay with this because you've never been hit by a condibomb that includes movement hindrances. That is my assertion and I will stand by it.

Condition damage should be an accent to a rotation IMO, not a main event. It's so brittle though that the moment you try to make it more viable, you open the way for people to build in such a way that they put an unreasonable amount of conditions on you at once while still having damage on top of that, or they apply the conditions so frequently that cleansing becomes useless or unreliable.

Conditions don't need a buff or nerf. they need a partial rework that looks at the absolute maximum damage a condition oriented spec can do and balances around that, with consideration given to making sure that condition application has ebbs in its flow that would make cleansing good counterplay, as well as thematic but non-conflicting application, like Revenant's application of torment and chill vs Mirage's application of Torment and Confusion.

Condition oriented specs should at best be able to punish one or two specific battle behaviors that are not independent of each other. Either punish an opponent by actively weakening their defenses if they are kite-y/focused on blocking, or punish them for attacking recklessly. There should be a clear divide between those two punishes on any given spec. You can't punish someone for attacking, then also punish them for running away from you or avoiding you while they wait to be able to attack. Its disingenuous and people will hate it.

As long as conditions can be spammed and jam an opponent to death without any clear response short of "press a button to cleanse", I will never be for just reducing the duration of the conditions, especially since some of them impede movement.

[Zexanima.7851]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:14 Dagger StormOverall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well.

I feel like this skill is perfectly in line with what an ultimate should be. Also, considering Improvisation isn't reliable it's hardly a problem. If you get caught by back-to-back dagger storms that's some bad luck on top of not managing your defensive cd's well. With all the blocks, invulns, blinks, and evades other professions have it shouldn't be hard to avoid two dagger storms.

[coro.3176]

@Snellibee.2761 said:I think condition cleanse needs to be toned down, that will indirectly buff condition damage. Buffing condition damage itself would not be the right approach as classes like Revenant who have close to zero condi cleanse are already getting kitten by condi spitting classes. increasing condi damage would just be one hell of a nerf to non condi cleanse builds.

To be honest I think condi cleanse should just act the way protection acts, instead of clearing all the condi's, just let them have reduced damage.

Condi damage ALREADY was toned down. .. They just forgot to hit the two main offenders at the time - Scourge and Mirage. Way back in .. 2017? I think? there was a great condi nerf patch where practically every high damage condi skill in the game had its duration extended but stacks nerfed, sometimes by as much as half.

Given that there was NO reduction in cleanse at the same time, this resulted in an effective 50% nerf due to the way conditions are cleansed. Cleanse a 10s 2-stack bleed after 5s of damage, and it's done 50% of its potential. Cleanse a 1-stack 20s bleed after 5s of damage and it's done 25% of its potential. At present, playing condi in this game is a frantic scramble to get some damage on an opponent, then follow it up with all kinds of cover conditions without reapplying your damaging condi accidentally.

I somewhat agree with you that condi could stand to be nerfed, BUT it would have to also come with a SEVERE reduction in cleanse. I mean like EVERY class would be at revenant cleanse levels. I mean like remove all cleanse traits and cleanse sigils/runes.

At present, condi is almost all downside with no upside:

• you have to hit opponents usually with closer range skills than power
• opponent can cleanse the damage - some opponents have so much cleanse you can do literally no damage to them even if you land all your skills for a minute straight
• even if the opponent doesn't cleanse the damage, it takes up to 15s for it to fully tick out
• while the damage is ticking, the opponent can attack you back and down or kill you first - if they go down, they lose all condi and win the down fight
• your damage and other condi effects can be entirely negated by resistance
• other players share cleanse with their nearby allies, so much that condi in large fights is near unplayable outside of repeating corrupt fields

For this, you get:

• ability to run tankier stats .. except not really because those stat combos were all removed from PvP, and the small amount of toughness/vitality you do get doesn't make you tanky enough to survive power burst anyway
• higher potential damage (if your opponent doesn't cleanse, but they always cleanse, so effectively less damage than power).

Cleanse needs a heavy, heavy nerf game-wide if you ever want things like: Condi Engi, Condi Revenant, Condi Ranger, etc. to be viable again.

As I mentioned, I suggest ONLY having cleanse on heal skills (which tend to have a ~20-30s cooldown). Maybe 2-4 conditions cleansed per heal. Then fix condi damage values + duration in PvP if needed.

[otto.5684]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Vaeo.4097 said:slow down animation a bit

No. If you cant dodge bulls charge as it stands right now there's a problem and it isn't with the skill. Let's not make warrior evasion worse than it already is. We already struggle to fight the more kitey classes.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Thiefs dagger storm projectiles are proximity .

Didnt know this. if it only autos you if you are in range, no change to DS is necessary.

Got it. So I will add bull charge to all the other warrior CC skills and boon rip skills I must dodge. If only I have 50 dodges.. will be an easy fight.

You are playing sPvP. You almost always in range. You fight on tiny circle you know...

[Falan.1839]

"I'm mirage and now I actually have to use my brain to win 1v1s, please nerf everything that can kill me."