Proposing a better alternative.

[Blocki.4931]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Then pick better fights or better places for such fights. Enemy also has to cleave your downeds so they can lose as well.

Implying its an even numbered fight.

Implying you can cleave through revives at all times. They have a dedicated support? well, tough luck. guess I should have uninstalled the game to win.

They can play the same classes you can play. Why don't you focus or CC that support?

Asking again, why would game ever be balanced around outnumbered fights?

No one is asking for that.

They are asking for revives to be reworked because the current system with Downed State and Rally is currently unhealthy for PvP. The reason people bring up outnumbered fights is because you can see such a drastic difference in how well people do with and without downed state in those scenarios.

With

downed state outnumbered fights are needlessly more difficult and doesn't at all pertain to player skill in those situations. It actually shows a lack of skill in that these players, as individuals, don't know how to survive, to avoid pressure or position themselves properly. They have a consistent and very frequent safety net in these situations and virtually no actual drawback, or investment, in bringing their ally back into the fight.

Without

downed state outnumbered fights are not as difficult because the players, as individuals, cannot properly sustain, position or avoid pressure well enough go down immediately and have no safety net to consistently, and overly frequently, get them right back into the fight. If Anet reworks revives, as in makes it so that skills like Battle Standard and others (on a 5 minute CD and only ressing 1) res from

full dead

with a percentage of health back this would give organized groups, smaller or larger, both the ability to coordinate revives and get their teammates back into the fight while making them actually invest something into doing so. It also gives both sides much better counterplay options as they can pressure and secure kills

around

these revive skill cooldowns.

So a larger group that is well organized can still outplay and outmaneuver the smaller group if the two groups consist of equally experienced/skilled players. However it

still

gives the smaller group a chance to pull out a clutch win against the larger group.

Perfect post, couldn't have said it better myself.

[steki.1478]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Then pick better fights or better places for such fights. Enemy also has to cleave your downeds so they can lose as well.

Implying its an even numbered fight.

Implying you can cleave through revives at all times. They have a dedicated support? well, tough luck. guess I should have uninstalled the game to win.

They can play the same classes you can play. Why don't you focus or CC that support?

Asking again, why would game ever be balanced around outnumbered fights?

No one is asking for that.

They are asking for revives to be reworked because the current system with Downed State and Rally is currently unhealthy for PvP. The reason people bring up outnumbered fights is because you can see such a drastic difference in how well people do with and without downed state in those scenarios.

With

downed state outnumbered fights are needlessly more difficult and doesn't at all pertain to player skill in those situations. It actually shows a lack of skill in that these players, as individuals, don't know how to survive, to avoid pressure or position themselves properly. They have a consistent and very frequent safety net in these situations and virtually no actual drawback, or investment, in bringing their ally back into the fight.

Without

downed state outnumbered fights are not as difficult because the players, as individuals, cannot properly sustain, position or avoid pressure well enough go down immediately and have no safety net to consistently, and overly frequently, get them right back into the fight. If Anet reworks revives, as in makes it so that skills like Battle Standard and others (on a 5 minute CD and only ressing 1) res from

full dead

with a percentage of health back this would give organized groups, smaller or larger, both the ability to coordinate revives and get their teammates back into the fight while making them actually invest something into doing so. It also gives both sides much better counterplay options as they can pressure and secure kills

around

these revive skill cooldowns.

So a larger group that is well organized can still outplay and outmaneuver the smaller group if the two groups consist of equally experienced/skilled players. However it

still

gives the smaller group a chance to pull out a clutch win against the larger group.

I never liked buffs they made to MI, illusion of life and similar. Reviving skills shouldn't even be a thing unless it's a class mechanic like on scrapper. Rally and being able to get revived by 5 people is enough (although that number can be reduced as well as amount of health gained after reviving).

In current balance there's absolutely 0 reasons to remove down state and rally. Difficulty in fighting outnumbered fights isn't valid enough, all teams have same map capacity and you can always fight in owned objectives and under siege with builds that perform well vs big numbers and choke points.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@steki.1478 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Then pick better fights or better places for such fights. Enemy also has to cleave your downeds so they can lose as well.

Implying its an even numbered fight.

Implying you can cleave through revives at all times. They have a dedicated support? well, tough luck. guess I should have uninstalled the game to win.

They can play the same classes you can play. Why don't you focus or CC that support?

Asking again, why would game ever be balanced around outnumbered fights?

No one is asking for that.

They are asking for revives to be reworked because the current system with Downed State and Rally is currently unhealthy for PvP. The reason people bring up outnumbered fights is because you can see such a drastic difference in how well people do with and without downed state in those scenarios.

With

downed state outnumbered fights are needlessly more difficult and doesn't at all pertain to player skill in those situations. It actually shows a lack of skill in that these players, as individuals, don't know how to survive, to avoid pressure or position themselves properly. They have a consistent and very frequent safety net in these situations and virtually no actual drawback, or investment, in bringing their ally back into the fight.

Without

downed state outnumbered fights are not as difficult because the players, as individuals, cannot properly sustain, position or avoid pressure well enough go down immediately and have no safety net to consistently, and overly frequently, get them right back into the fight. If Anet reworks revives, as in makes it so that skills like Battle Standard and others (on a 5 minute CD and only ressing 1) res from

full dead

with a percentage of health back this would give organized groups, smaller or larger, both the ability to coordinate revives and get their teammates back into the fight while making them actually invest something into doing so. It also gives both sides much better counterplay options as they can pressure and secure kills

around

these revive skill cooldowns.

So a larger group that is well organized can still outplay and outmaneuver the smaller group if the two groups consist of equally experienced/skilled players. However it

still

gives the smaller group a chance to pull out a clutch win against the larger group.

I never liked buffs they made to MI, illusion of life and similar. Reviving skills shouldn't even be a thing unless it's a class mechanic like on scrapper. Rally and being able to get revived by 5 people is enough (although that number can be reduced as well as amount of health gained after reviving).

In current balance there's absolutely 0 reasons to remove down state and rally. Difficulty in fighting outnumbered fights isn't valid enough, all teams have same map capacity and you can always fight in owned objectives and under siege with builds that perform well vs big numbers and choke points.

Except in GW1 it was meta that everyone bring a Res Signet, or Death Pact Signet, into GvG or other organized team based PvP modes. Why? To get their allies back into the fight. However there was actual counterplay around that because they had cooldowns, drawbacks like Death Pact Signet or in the case of Res Signet it only reset when your team acquired a Morale Boost. Now GW2 WvW works differently in this case as its not a shorter match but a more prolonged battle, hence the suggestion for a 5 minute cooldown on these skills, an argument could be made to go a little longer just based on how large zergs can get.

It seems we hold a very different perspective, possibly because we have drastically different histories with PvP in MMORPGs, hence your dislike of revive skills. They aren't problematic in my eyes, in fact should this rework actually happen it could vastly improve their use in the game and bring about some much needed shifts in how this game plays especially in regards to build diversity in zergs. In fact in one of my posts I even suggested that they rework Scrapper Gyro to be an active use skill, on a 5 minute CD, that functioned like a drone defibrillator for 1 ally.

[Aridon.8362]

Thanks for all the replies, I'm all for no downstate in WvW at all (actually even the game altogether), but I've already argued with people and you just can't beat them no matter how much you try it's engrained into people's playstyle that they will defend their reliance on it at all costs.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Aridon.8362 said:Thanks for all the replies, I'm all for no downstate in WvW at all (actually even the game altogether), but I've already argued with people and you just can't beat them no matter how much you try it's engrained into people's playstyle that they will defend their reliance on it at all costs.

Seems more like they can't actually find strong enough arguments to bring against the suggestion of removing downed state and reworking revives. I have yet to see anyone actually bring up a good point as to why it would be a bad idea in the game's current state.

Just refer to my previous posts in threads similar to this one, there are things Anet can do that would make it entirely possible, and better, to remove downed state and rework revives. Sad thing is that because so many people just do not want to listen to that kind of reason they will continue to push back against the suggestion even though they have essentially no solid argument against it. At least none that I've seen.

[Emberheart.8426]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Aridon.8362 said:Thanks for all the replies, I'm all for no downstate in WvW at all (actually even the game altogether), but I've already argued with people and you just can't beat them no matter how much you try it's engrained into people's playstyle that they will defend their reliance on it at all costs.

Seems more like they can't actually find strong enough arguments to bring against the suggestion of removing downed state and reworking revives. I have yet to see anyone actually bring up a good point as to why it would be a bad idea in the game's current state.

Just refer to my previous posts in threads similar to this one, there are things Anet can do that would make it entirely possible, and better, to remove downed state and rework revives. Sad thing is that because so many people just

do not

want to listen to that kind of reason they will continue to push back against the suggestion even though they have essentially no solid argument against it. At least none that I've seen.

I'd be all for now downstate as long as Anet could balance around it. The problem is that most of the supporters of having no downstate have not been paying attention to how glacial Anet's balancing is. If they suddenly decided to remove downstate, it would not come with the huge balance patch that it needs. It would only be the standard balance patch that we are used to + changes to revives. There hasn't been a balance patch that you could call huge since 2015. You'd be waiting for years for them to get the balance of no downstate to an even remotely acceptable level. Balance is not even acceptable right now, 1.5 years after PoF launched.

[LetoII.3782]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Aridon.8362 said:1) Nerf downstate so that it doesn't have 100% chance to trigger at 0 hp to 33% chance.There are places where RNG could have its purpose.

Death is not one of them.

AgreedPeople should die when they die.

@steki.1478 said:

Asking again, why would game ever be balanced around outnumbered fights?

Why should the game actively discourage bravery?Herding up like cattle in a zero-consequences video game not only looks silly, but also makes the game run bad.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"Aridon.8362" said:Thanks for all the replies, I'm all for no downstate in WvW at all (actually even the game altogether), but I've already argued with people and you just can't beat them no matter how much you try it's engrained into people's playstyle that they will defend their reliance on it at all costs.

Seems more like they can't actually find strong enough arguments to bring against the suggestion of removing downed state and reworking revives. I have yet to see anyone actually bring up a good point as to why it would be a bad idea in the game's current state.

Just refer to my previous posts in threads similar to this one, there are things Anet can do that would make it entirely possible, and better, to remove downed state and rework revives. Sad thing is that because so many people just

do not

want to listen to that kind of reason they will continue to push back against the suggestion even though they have essentially no solid argument against it. At least none that I've seen.

I'd be all for now downstate as long as Anet could balance around it. The problem is that most of the supporters of having no downstate have not been paying attention to how glacial Anet's balancing is. If they suddenly decided to remove downstate, it would not come with the

huge

balance patch that it needs. It would only be the standard balance patch that we are used to + changes to revives. There hasn't been a balance patch that you could call huge since 2015. You'd be waiting for years for them to get the balance of no downstate to an even remotely acceptable level. Balance is not even acceptable right now, 1.5 years after PoF launched.

You're not wrong, they have gone at a snails pace and the length of time between balance patches was 3 to 4 months. However if you notice more recently, the last 2 balance patches were only just over a month apart. It gives me a little bit of hope, not a lot, that they will try to maintain that schedule. Its necessary.

One thing we know now as well is that Anet had a lot of people moved away from GW2 and onto other projects but those projects have been discontinued and they've tried to put focus back on GW2, especially by having those employees moved back onto GW2.

The best we can do is continue to push this, continue to talk about it and continue to suggest the removal of downed state but actually emphasize that we want revives reworked, made better, not just have Downed State removed for the sake of removing it. As much of a functional and design nightmare the Berserker rework was, they at least put in changes that people asked for (I.E Berserk Mode activation being affected by Burst traits like Adrenal Health).

Key points to continue to push:

• Removal of Downed State
• Rework of Revive skills (Battle Standard, Spirit of Nature, Signet of Mercy, etc) to function on "Defeated" players (for Guardian it would probably be best to swap Signet of Mercy and Signet of Courage, tone down/change Signet of Courage some especially since no one uses it anyway as an elite skill and this would give Guardians another Elite option)
• Also adding some Revive skills to classes that may not have them such as changing Scrappers Function Gyro into an active skill to function as a "drone defibrillator", honestly thats a better functionality than what we have currently
• 5 minute cooldown on these Revive skills
• Only revives 1 player; would probably be a good idea to make all of these res skills a targeted AoE and have them res whoever is closest to the center point of the radius
• Toning down of the actual problematic one shot builds like Soulbeast with its Sic 'Em and Deadeye with its Malicious Backstab (DE wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have perma stealth. Silent Scope needs an ICD.)
• Changing/Renaming Finishers to be more "Boasts" or "Taunts" and possibly even function out of the Novelties menu. Would actually encourage PvE players to buy them and have a use for them since PvE only players probably don't even remotely give a damn about Finishers as they don't have a purpose for them.
• Rework revive oriented traits as appropriate with their original functions to either revive a player with more of a percentage of health or to give them some sort of benefit when they are revived. Such as Protective Reviver for Guardian, it could be reworked so that if you revive an ally with Signet of Mercy you each gain boons and the revived ally casts Lesser Shield of Absorption the moment they are revived. Or Ritual of Life for Necromancer, it could function in a fashion fitting of a Necromancer in that if you are revived by another player then you cast a Greater Well of Blood, or something else entirely, which revives one other nearby player within a radius. That way if a Necromancer with that trait dies and then your group quickly loses another player within range you can get 2 for the price of 1 revive. Probably would want a different name for that or change the function of the trait to not allow for "Wells of Blood" revive allies.

Open for other suggestions, reasonable ones, that could be added to that list of key points. My suggestions for reworking the traits are just suggestions, not something that will happen, and am completely open to other ideas.

Would this whole thing be a lot of work? I'm sure it would. Would it be worth it? Yes.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Leave downstate but alter it slightly.. While rezzing someone, if you take a single hit (even from an npc), you're instantly killed. Don't want to take the chance of being instantly killed? Don't rez.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Yup and its the '1' who needs to choose to let the enemy bleed out or Burst.

It's reading moment, choosing the wrong option let enemies go up'

It's a sandbox game on which, me as roamer with 4 year experience, can face a group with barely 2 months experience on 1v3

Ill win 80%of the time in no downstate week...maybe 20% of the time outside the week.Im fine with downstate...i shouldnt assjam everyone and scare people away all the time :/

[subversiontwo.7501]

@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:You mean all the teams that are no longer with the game and haven't been since ESL pulled away from GW2? They also played before Path of Fire, which was where Anet started to really double down on adding dedicated healers into the game with Firebrand and have only increased healing since then? Scrapper, Tempest and now Ventari Rev are all viable healing builds, and strong ones at that. I've seen this retort before, it doesn't hold as much weight as you think because this isn't 2016 anymore and ESL is long gone along with those teams.Downed State was designed with no dedicated healing in mind because Anet didn't intend to add it at the release of the game. Now we have dedicated healers and Downed State is still here.They literally just buffed Ventari Rev and made it stronger. So not only do we have Firebrand, Scrapper and Tempest (which also got a healing buff in the last patch) but now we have Revenant with a healing build. Downed State is becoming redundant and problematic as a "support" mechanic for players.

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:It is absolutely like referencing something outdated because like I said you are referring to a period of time that holds absolutely no weight to today and how the game has changed since then. The point of making that comparison is that you are almost ignoring that the game is not the same as it was then. HoT, obviously, did not have PoF Elite Specs, HoT did not have the balance updates we have today. That is all a given. I won't accept something from the past as credible or valid in relation to the present. Things are very clearly different.You can regurgitate the line that has been fed for years now of "There really isn't any healing, there is support" when that doesn't hold true at all these days. You can literally run around with a pocket healer now in WvW, even in sPvP, in the form of Firebrand, Tempest, Scrapper or now Ventari Rev. I've seen it and been the recipient of it. Even if they are AoE focused, the healing effect does not lessen just because you are healing more than 1 target. This game has dedicated healers now. The builds used by Firebrands, Scrappers, Tempests and Ventari Heralds are built for healing. They don't use Minstel's for the Vitality.

I've scissored qoutes by you from different posts since they keep to a theme that I'd like to adress.

The game has always had dedicated healers, they were not just as widespread.

Most of the classes you mention have been used as "healers" since they came out, Anet has just purified that purpose over time.

The Guardian launched with a healing book, their dodge rolls, maces and heal ticks. There were dedicated Cleric Guardians and there was the more usual Soldier/Cleric hybrid that were all somehow regarded as healers. Read to the end to see why hybrids were popular. The Ele has similarily also always been able to dodge water, fountain, heal on auto attack and share mist. It was fully possible to play a Cleric Ele it just wasn't the preferred way to play. The Engineer's healing mostly come from vanilla abilities and traits although the traits have changed over time. Point being, it isn't the Scrapper that makes the Scrapper healer, it is just a good tree to combine with the core around the spray can.

The Ventari Rev has been the best "healer" since it came out. This month's patch may have adressed some gameplay points for it but ever since it came into the game it has had the highest potential healing. People just don't play it much because it has a weird combination of being taxing and boring while peak healing has little value on its own. It doesn't matter if it heals more when the others heal sufficiently and adds other forms of support.

That also ties back to the vanilla aspect of the game. The reason people generally did not play healers in such dedicated roles even though they existed and were comparatively powerful is because of stability. The old stability made blasting water fields much more reliable so healing was only really needed between blasts and people then had their dodge rolls and personal heals. That is the big change that has transpired. When Arenanet changed vanilla stability they also completely changed the outlook for the ebb-tide gameplay of water fields. There are way fewer regroups now, many water fields are now rolling water fields but in combat fields overwrite each other and become highly irreliable so a need for a broader application of heals between regroups have arisen. However, do not make the mistake to assume that people were not able to spam 1-2k heals in the past, they were, they just had more regroups.

[Deimos.4263]

I don't have a problem with down state. I kinda like down state. You've got a chance to rally, you've got a chance to get picked up (though ressing while in combat in WvW is not really a thing now. I would actually bring that back so people could attempt a truly heroic res, and as DeadlySynz suggests impose a debuff to the person attempting it....but perhaps not instant death on hit. -500 toughness, maybe? Something.) So down state seems like a fun second chance to survive to me, but I could do without it too.

The state I have a problem with is "defeated". You shouldn't be able to hang around, scout, waste enemy siege, watch enemy dances, or be ressed if you're defeated. You're defeated. It should port you instantly back to spawn when you die. Even during "no down state week" (I could be mistaken here) the winning team could pick people back up after the fight when they should be running back. There's no sense of attrition if you can literally come back from the dead.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"Aridon.8362" said:Thanks for all the replies, I'm all for no downstate in WvW at all (actually even the game altogether), but I've already argued with people and you just can't beat them no matter how much you try it's engrained into people's playstyle that they will defend their reliance on it at all costs.

Seems more like they can't actually find strong enough arguments to bring against the suggestion of removing downed state and reworking revives. I have yet to see anyone actually bring up a good point as to why it would be a bad idea in the game's current state.

Just refer to my previous posts in threads similar to this one, there are things Anet can do that would make it entirely possible, and better, to remove downed state and rework revives. Sad thing is that because so many people just

do not

want to listen to that kind of reason they will continue to push back against the suggestion even though they have essentially no solid argument against it. At least none that I've seen.

And you wont see any. Reason being is all their reasons were shot to the ground the day the first no downstate event happened. I suggested for years before it ever happened to remove downstate in WvW and people said all sorts of things about what would happen if anet did it, and how it would actually favor larger zergs and how it would hurt skill groups.

After the first event, myself and others were shown to be right in that it greatly favored skill over sheer unskilled numbers, the outnumbered fights were still hard, but were at least now possible. Many of those old excuses have all but evaporated, because it was no longer a "what if" situation, we now knew what it meant. The reasons have now all boiled down to the reasoning of "I want my team to still be able to rezz me after I have been beaten, so we can try over and over again until we get it right or are able to just blob them down".

[Kaiser.9873]

I don't think the "No Downstate" is 50/50. I've seen a few polls here and there where it looks more like 30/70 pro-no downstate. Whichever numbers you use however, the game has too many downstate features to get rid of it completely. Too many skills, and traits apply to downstate. Classes like ele that have powerful downstate skills would need recompense for losing downstate. TTK would have to go up for no downstate to be implemented permanently.

Much easier for ANet to have the occasional no downstate event than to make it permanent.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:You mean all the teams that are no longer with the game and haven't been since ESL pulled away from GW2? They also played

before

Path of Fire, which was where Anet started to really double down on adding dedicated healers into the game with

Firebrand and have only increased healing since then? Scrapper, Tempest and now Ventari Rev

are all viable healing builds, and strong ones at that. I've seen this retort before, it doesn't hold as much weight as you think because this isn't 2016 anymore and ESL is long gone along with those teams.

Downed State was designed with

no

dedicated healing in mind

because Anet didn't intend to add it at the release of the game. Now we have dedicated healers and Downed State is still here.They literally just buffed Ventari Rev and made it stronger. So not only do we have Firebrand, Scrapper and Tempest (which also got a healing buff in the last patch) but now we have Revenant with a healing build. Downed State is becoming redundant and problematic as a "support" mechanic for players.

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:It is absolutely like referencing something outdated because like I said

you are referring to a period of time that holds absolutely no weight to today and how the game has changed since then

. The point of making that comparison is that you are almost ignoring that the game is not the same as it was then. HoT, obviously, did not have PoF Elite Specs, HoT did not have the balance updates we have today. That is all a given. I won't accept something from the past as credible or valid in relation to the present. Things are very clearly different.You can regurgitate the line that has been fed for years now of

"There really isn't any healing, there is support" when that doesn't hold true at all these days

.

You can literally run around with a pocket healer now in WvW

, even in sPvP, in the form of Firebrand, Tempest, Scrapper or now Ventari Rev. I've seen it and been the recipient of it. Even if they are AoE focused, the healing effect does not lessen just because you are healing more than 1 target.

This game has dedicated healers now

. The builds used by Firebrands, Scrappers, Tempests and Ventari Heralds are built for healing. They don't use Minstel's for the Vitality.

I've scissored qoutes by you from different posts since they keep to a theme that I'd like to adress.

The game has always had dedicated healers, they were not just as widespread.

Most of the classes you mention have been used as "healers" since they came out, Anet has just purified that purpose over time.

The Guardian launched with a healing book, their dodge rolls, maces and heal ticks. There were dedicated Cleric Guardians and there was the more usual Soldier/Cleric hybrid that were all somehow regarded as healers. Read to the end to see why hybrids were popular. The Ele has similarily also always been able to dodge water, fountain, heal on auto attack and share mist. It was fully possible to play a Cleric Ele it just wasn't the preferred way to play. The Engineer's healing mostly come from vanilla abilities and traits although the traits have changed over time. Point being, it isn't the Scrapper that makes the Scrapper healer, it is just a good tree to combine with the core around the spray can.

The Ventari Rev has been the best "healer" since it came out. This month's patch may have adressed some gameplay points for it but ever since it came into the game it has had the highest potential healing. People just don't play it much because it has a weird combination of being taxing and boring while peak healing has little value on its own. It doesn't matter if it heals more when the others heal sufficiently and adds other forms of support.

That also ties back to the vanilla aspect of the game. The reason people generally did not play healers in such dedicated roles even though they existed and were comparatively powerful is because of stability. The old stability made blasting water fields much more reliable so healing was only really needed between blasts and people then had their dodge rolls and personal heals. That is the big change that has transpired. When Arenanet changed vanilla stability they also completely changed the outlook for the ebb-tide gameplay of water fields. There are way fewer regroups now, many water fields are now rolling water fields but in combat fields overwrite each other and become highly irreliable so a need for a broader application of heals between regroups have arisen. However, do not make the mistake to assume that people were not able to spam 1-2k heals in the past, they were, they just had more regroups.

Except healing has never been as strong, or rather as abundant, as it is now. There have been instances in the past where, sure, healing was a part of supporting your team but it wasn't all that powerful. I know several people who tried, I was one of them, they went full healer setup with the most healing power they could get and traited for group support, those builds then don't compare to what we have now; not even remotely in terms of strength or in terms of abundance.

Actual healer builds weren't really a thing for a long time until Druid came around and even then it wasn't too strong in that regard, it was strong for its time but when Firebrand came out it rather quickly got over shadowed. This was mostly due to access to boons, boon share and the sheer number of healing skills it has. I never classified anything prior to Druid, at the very least, to be anything remotely like a dedicated healer. It was support with healing-lite.

Oh and yeah Ventari Rev has been strong in the past, but they nerfed it a little while back when it was showing to be extremely tanky. Now recently they've kind of just brought it right back to where it was then, with a few more actual function changes to try to improve it for an actual healer role. In fact they did something similar to Elementalist in the same patch, they buffed its healing values and as such it has actually made Tempest a stronger healer and support build. They did the same thing to Engineer and like you said when you pair these traits from Core Engi with Scrapper it actually creates a particularly tanky and strong healer. As you said, they've directed their purpose much more recently.

They have consistently power crept not just damage but healing as well. The point that I was trying to make by consistently bringing it up is that healing today is more abundant and wider spread than it ever has been, just as you said. Today we have Firebrand (even Core Guard), Scrapper, Tempest, and Ventari Herald. I would say Druid but its kind of on the bottom of the list because it doesn't bring as much to the table as the others in terms of boon share, but still decently strong in smaller groups and you can see the attempt in the latest patch notes that Anet is trying to bring Druid more in line with the other healing builds. Maybe its not the reason to remove downed state and rework revives, but it is one of several at this point. This is especially true if they continue down this path of buffing healing for classes with Elite Specs designed for it or if they release more of them in the future with the next expansion/later expansions.

Ultimately you and I are saying nearly the same thing. Support/Healing has existed before, but where it seems we disagree is in how we have defined "Dedicated healers". I didn't consider those builds in the past to be as such, but today we see Anet heading in a direction where healing is not only much stronger than it ever has been but also more abundant.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"Kaiser.9873" said:I don't think the "No Downstate" is 50/50. I've seen a few polls here and there where it looks more like 30/70 pro-no downstate. Whichever numbers you use however, the game has too many downstate features to get rid of it completely. Too many skills, and traits apply to downstate. Classes like ele that have powerful downstate skills would need recompense for losing downstate. TTK would have to go up for no downstate to be implemented permanently.

Much easier for ANet to have the occasional no downstate event than to make it permanent.

It is easier, but the easiest way isn't always the best way. If you read an earlier post of mine I do suggest some actual ideas for reworks to such traits that affect reviving allies. It wouldn't be easy to do all of it, it would take time and resources but honestly I think it would be worth it. I also suggest them toning down on the one shot builds. The actual one shot builds, not just people playing poorly and dying because they 1) Use all of their defensive cooldowns at once 2) Double dodge nothing or 3) Have a PvE build in a PvP mode

Also...who cares about downstate skills. Ele doesn't need them, no class needs them. If any class actually "needs" its downstate skills then I think some people spend way too much time in downstate which is exactly the problem. Or from another perspective, if any class "needs" its downstate skills then something is wrong with that class.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Kaiser.9873" said:I don't think the "No Downstate" is 50/50. I've seen a few polls here and there where it looks more like 30/70 pro-no downstate. Whichever numbers you use however, the game has too many downstate features to get rid of it completely. Too many skills, and traits apply to downstate. Classes like ele that have powerful downstate skills would need recompense for losing downstate. TTK would have to go up for no downstate to be implemented permanently.

Much easier for ANet to have the occasional no downstate event than to make it permanent.Links to support that claim? Just curious. Because this time around I havent seen any simple "yes" or "no" polls. There's one with no downstate for one border and that's it, which is obviously going to be a flawed poll - those for keeping downstate might agree to no downstate on a border or like it because it's an idea that's not simply deletion of downstate. Last time, it was about a 45/55 in favor of keeping downstate if I recall correctly.

But I guess this is the same deal as the mount. Everybody hates it and want it deleted, that's what everybody says oh yes. Then when polling... people want to keep it and 95% of WvWers now use it constantly.

[Shroud.2307]

For the sake of discussion, I want to share a video. This is me lurking around an enemy keep during the no downed state event on a Reaper. A fellow Deadeye happened to be nearby whom I was not communicating with, but the two of us provided each other with support.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEHeTXpGtkI

Here are a few questions and things to think about:

• I'm not very good. In fact, I use a trackpad instead of a mouse, and yet I manage to be better than the average pug. This isn't saying much however considering the average level of skill is quite low, but it does exemplify just how low it is.

• If downed state had been in effect, how many times during this video do you think I'd have been forced to retreat, or how many times do you think I'd have died attempting to finish a player?

• What would have happened at the very beginning if Mounts didn't exist?

• Who deserves to be winning here? Me, the one preying on players who do not wish to fight/are not equipped to fight/are less skilled (but also the one venturing forth alone)? Or the ones who are trying to group up, defend their territory or reunite with their zerg?

• Who do you think will be more upset when they die; the player who gets routinely zerged/ganked for being solo? Or the player(s) who prefer to be in groups and often do not play without one?

I think downed state could be changed to be more "balanced" but I don't think it would be healthy to completely remove it. There are so many factors to consider that if it were ever to be removed, many other things would need to be addressed first.

DisclaimerI routinely record videos for the sake of review and occasionally (rarely) sharing on my channel. They aren't montages and they aren't highlighting my skill (or lack there of). It's gameplay and nothing else. I just thought it would be interesting to see how people might answer these questions and what they might see in a video that isn't a cherry picked roaming montage or a compilation of meme kills.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

I'm just going to say this again. Downstate is not the problem.

Rally is the problem.

Rally is what makes us hate tag a longs following a zerg or havoc team that become rallybots for the enemy when we engage.

Rally is what allows superior numbers to always bowl over skill as all it takes is tagging an enemy that goes down to get back up instantly.

Without Rally we would see;

1) No more rallybots.2) Larger zergs would have to ignore their downed or lose more DPS/Support as those people stopped to get thier downed up.

Downed people are bleeding out. They need to first aid themselves (Bandage) or get help (player revives).

Rally makes no sense. I have never heard of someone getting mauled by a bear suddenly getting up fine cause he shot a nearby coyote.

Remember how WvW got a little better when they lowered the max number of people that could Rally from tagging an enemy? Imagine how much better it would be if that number was zero.

Rally is what needs to go.

[aspirine.5839]

@steki.1478 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Then pick better fights or better places for such fights. Enemy also has to cleave your downeds so they can lose as well.

Implying its an even numbered fight.

Implying you can cleave through revives at all times. They have a dedicated support? well, tough luck. guess I should have uninstalled the game to win.

They can play the same classes you can play. Why don't you focus or CC that support?

Asking again, why would game ever be balanced around outnumbered fights?

No one is asking for that.

They are asking for revives to be reworked because the current system with Downed State and Rally is currently unhealthy for PvP. The reason people bring up outnumbered fights is because you can see such a drastic difference in how well people do with and without downed state in those scenarios.

With

downed state outnumbered fights are needlessly more difficult and doesn't at all pertain to player skill in those situations. It actually shows a lack of skill in that these players, as individuals, don't know how to survive, to avoid pressure or position themselves properly. They have a consistent and very frequent safety net in these situations and virtually no actual drawback, or investment, in bringing their ally back into the fight.

Without

downed state outnumbered fights are not as difficult because the players, as individuals, cannot properly sustain, position or avoid pressure well enough go down immediately and have no safety net to consistently, and overly frequently, get them right back into the fight. If Anet reworks revives, as in makes it so that skills like Battle Standard and others (on a 5 minute CD and only ressing 1) res from

full dead

with a percentage of health back this would give organized groups, smaller or larger, both the ability to coordinate revives and get their teammates back into the fight while making them actually invest something into doing so. It also gives both sides much better counterplay options as they can pressure and secure kills

around

these revive skill cooldowns.

So a larger group that is well organized can still outplay and outmaneuver the smaller group if the two groups consist of equally experienced/skilled players. However it

still

gives the smaller group a chance to pull out a clutch win against the larger group.

I never liked buffs they made to MI, illusion of life and similar. Reviving skills shouldn't even be a thing unless it's a class mechanic like on scrapper. Rally and being able to get revived by 5 people is enough (although that number can be reduced as well as amount of health gained after reviving).

In current balance there's absolutely 0 reasons to remove down state and rally. Difficulty in fighting outnumbered fights isn't valid enough, all teams have same map capacity and you can always fight in owned objectives and under siege with builds that perform well vs big numbers and choke points.

All teams do have the same map capacity but defending your home bl does not mean you can fight with even numbers. Usually or well all the time we have to defend with less people than the attacker so that gives them the instarez advantage almost all the time.Adjust the rez health and amount of people rezzing 1 person would be something good to test out in wvw, so I like your idea.

[steki.1478]

@aspirine.5839 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Then pick better fights or better places for such fights. Enemy also has to cleave your downeds so they can lose as well.

Implying its an even numbered fight.

Implying you can cleave through revives at all times. They have a dedicated support? well, tough luck. guess I should have uninstalled the game to win.

They can play the same classes you can play. Why don't you focus or CC that support?

Asking again, why would game ever be balanced around outnumbered fights?

No one is asking for that.

They are asking for revives to be reworked because the current system with Downed State and Rally is currently unhealthy for PvP. The reason people bring up outnumbered fights is because you can see such a drastic difference in how well people do with and without downed state in those scenarios.

With

downed state outnumbered fights are needlessly more difficult and doesn't at all pertain to player skill in those situations. It actually shows a lack of skill in that these players, as individuals, don't know how to survive, to avoid pressure or position themselves properly. They have a consistent and very frequent safety net in these situations and virtually no actual drawback, or investment, in bringing their ally back into the fight.

Without

downed state outnumbered fights are not as difficult because the players, as individuals, cannot properly sustain, position or avoid pressure well enough go down immediately and have no safety net to consistently, and overly frequently, get them right back into the fight. If Anet reworks revives, as in makes it so that skills like Battle Standard and others (on a 5 minute CD and only ressing 1) res from

full dead

with a percentage of health back this would give organized groups, smaller or larger, both the ability to coordinate revives and get their teammates back into the fight while making them actually invest something into doing so. It also gives both sides much better counterplay options as they can pressure and secure kills

around

these revive skill cooldowns.

So a larger group that is well organized can still outplay and outmaneuver the smaller group if the two groups consist of equally experienced/skilled players. However it

still

gives the smaller group a chance to pull out a clutch win against the larger group.

I never liked buffs they made to MI, illusion of life and similar. Reviving skills shouldn't even be a thing unless it's a class mechanic like on scrapper. Rally and being able to get revived by 5 people is enough (although that number can be reduced as well as amount of health gained after reviving).

In current balance there's absolutely 0 reasons to remove down state and rally. Difficulty in fighting outnumbered fights isn't valid enough, all teams have same map capacity and you can always fight in owned objectives and under siege with builds that perform well vs big numbers and choke points.

All teams do have the same map capacity but defending your home bl does not mean you can fight with even numbers. Usually or well all the time we have to defend with less people than the attacker so that gives them the instarez advantage almost all the time.Adjust the rez health and amount of people rezzing 1 person would be something good to test out in wvw, so I like your idea.

You already have advantage of presence of the keep (800 bonus stats inside keep), gliding (inside objective and respawning), mount (respawning), prebuilt siege (ballistas and trebs can do wonders), have more freedom of movement by clouding around enemy (if they try the same they are as good as dead so they have to stay relatively close), can stall attack with disablers, cripple attack with traps and so on. I do understand that defending 10v50 is quite hard, but downstate doesnt change anything about that. Defending with half numbers is quite possible on the other hand and if people arent competent enough, they can at least stall until players from other maps come to help.

It's an MMO after all, having to rely on allies is not a bad thing.

[ChillyKoti.1928]

Or..

Rework downstate.Make it like we can't revive by ourself, only an ally can revive.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:I'm just going to say this again. Downstate is not the problem.

Rally is the problem.

Rally is what makes us hate tag a longs following a zerg or havoc team that become rallybots for the enemy when we engage.

Rally is what allows superior numbers to always bowl over skill as all it takes is tagging an enemy that goes down to get back up instantly.

Without Rally we would see;

1) No more rallybots.2) Larger zergs would have to ignore their downed or lose more DPS/Support as those people stopped to get thier downed up.

Downed people are bleeding out. They need to first aid themselves (Bandage) or get help (player revives).

Rally makes no sense. I have never heard of someone getting mauled by a bear suddenly getting up fine cause he shot a nearby coyote.

Remember how WvW got a little better when they lowered the max number of people that could Rally from tagging an enemy? Imagine how much better it would be if that number was zero.

Rally is what needs to go.Slap 1:1 ressing on top of that and you wouldnt be able to power res with a larger force either.

Its a far more acceptable solution than the kneejerk reaction of deleting downstate as even with both of these nerf, it still maintains the core of what downstate actually is and doesnt change any existing skill systems relating to downed.

[Whiteout.1975]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:I'm just going to say this again. Downstate is not the problem.

Rally is the problem.

Rally is what makes us hate tag a longs following a zerg or havoc team that become rallybots for the enemy when we engage.

Rally is what allows superior numbers to always bowl over skill as all it takes is tagging an enemy that goes down to get back up instantly.

Without Rally we would see;

1) No more rallybots.2) Larger zergs would have to ignore their downed or lose more DPS/Support as those people stopped to get thier downed up.

Downed people are bleeding out. They need to first aid themselves (Bandage) or get help (player revives).

Rally makes no sense. I have never heard of someone getting mauled by a bear suddenly getting up fine cause he shot a nearby coyote.

Remember how WvW got a little better when they lowered the max number of people that could Rally from tagging an enemy? Imagine how much better it would be if that number

was zero.

Rally is what needs to go.

Slap 1:1 ressing on top of that and you wouldnt be able to power res with a larger force either.

Its a

far

more acceptable solution than the kneejerk reaction of deleting downstate as even with both of these nerf, it still maintains the core of what downstate actually is and doesnt change any existing skill systems relating to downed.

I've literally been thinking the same 1:1 res too @Dawdler.8521. I'm also thinking that it would probably add more evened out skillful play between smaller vs larger groups... because now the "attackers" (attacking the downed) cannot get as many "free" shots on the higher possibility of players resing, but now only just 1 player max. Granted this was the one thing I actually liked about downstate... But if it adds more respectable skill to the game this new way then I'm down. And I'll end up liking the more skillful play more at that point anyways.

Anyways, if you wanna help aid the "Rally" cause at least. There's this https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75223/can-we-have-a-no-rally-week-please#latest... Could use more views sadly tbh.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Whiteout.1975 said:I've literally been thinking the same 1:1 res too @"Dawdler.8521". I'm also thinking that it would probably add more evened out skillful play between smaller vs larger groups... because now the "attackers" (attacking the downed) cannot get as many "free" shots on the higher possibility of players resing, but now only just 1 player max. Granted this was the one thing I actually liked about downstate... But if it adds more respectable skill to the game this new way then I'm down. And I'll end up liking the more skillful play more at that point anyways.Well in smallscale people wouldnt be so stupid as to die when ressing due to "free" shots, you'd hope ;)

The main thing is that it would just shift the reliance on brute force (ie 5 peeps all rushing to res) to somewhat more tactical thinking - who resses (the bunker? The healer? The closest?), who CC (you need more CC as 1 person ressing cannot overcome dps from multiple peeps) and how you manouver to block enemies (do we push to "clear" the downed so someone can res or do we cover him with sheild bubbles etc?) and so on. It's such a simple nerf yet so elegant. No rallying adds a layer on top of this with further considerations on when to stomp and when to res since you no longer get both in a neat package.

Unlike no downed state that significantly simplifies combat and promotes frontloading burst damage, this deepens the combat instead. I am always reminded of the original GW2 guardian teaser video from 2012, with him popping the sheild to protect a "downed" NPC fleeing from centaurs . That is the kind of combat that sold me on GW2. I want that. Not some surprise bookah!!! dead in 1s.

But of course, people wanting no downstate still dont want fights. They just want to win.

Edit: Btw is someone want to post a hidden poll on this that's not stupidly biased and open with stuff like "Remove downstate because its skill/Keep downstate because I cant fight", I recommend the following options:

• Remove downstate
• Nerf downstate
• Keep downstate as is

With the following notes:Remove downstate assumes that all associated skills/traits and functions are remade/changed, no arguing "but mah function gyro".Nerf downstate can mean for example no rallying, 1:1 ressing, nerfing hp, nerfing downstate skills etc.Keep downstate as is means... as is.

Now, why 3 poll options you ask instead of just 2 (remove/keep)? Well because they are still mutually exclusive. There's no ambiguity in what to vote for even if you dont agree with for example all types of nerfs, unlike the recent poll of "no downstate on one border" which kind of pulls both crowds and isnt a good indication how many are in favor or either keeping or removing it, its just a different type of poll. Those that want to remove downstate wont vote for nerf or keep (obviously). Those that want to nerf it wont vote for remove or keep it as is. And those that want to keep it as is wont vote for nerfing or removing it. Simple.