Server without level scaling

[joneirikb.7506]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:I already suggested removing World Boss and Disabling Achievements.For something that you aren't sure is even an issue, your "discussion of ideas" keeps veering into the impractically-expensive category. Adding a new instance in which a fundamental mechanic doesn't trigger is costly. Removing a world boss (and dealing with its pre-event chains) is also costly. That seems like an awful lot of trouble for something that might not even be needed.

I'd be surprised if disabling an event was more complicated than going into the code and setting the timer or chance to happen or other such stat to 0.

No idea about how difficult achievements would be, and don't really know how it would impact it anyways. Might be easier to go one shot things with shield for the shield master ?

Even then, even if allowed Shadow Behemoth to spawn, would it actually affect anything ? If you kill it in the instance (1-5 man) you already got the bonus chest anyways, so if you rush out to the normal map and catch the tail end of the normal one, would you get anything of importance ?

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:Hmm, why would collections be easier to do on a solo-no-scale map than one a normal map where more people could potentially help ?Because more people do not necessarily help. Remember, that events scale up to the number of people participating. Also, you mentioned going in solo, or

in a group

.That's without even considering that someone who knows what they're doing, and are utilizing a proper build can often deal upward of 25% of the damage of a 50-man open world zerg - and in instanced version of the map you'd have perfect control over who goes in and who doesn't.

A hypothetical unscaled 5-man meta group would be doing damage greater by an order of magnitude than the

whole map

of scaled down open world players. To mobs/bosses whose hps would

not

be scaled up to a whole zerg of players. You may think that the worldbosses on low level maps are melting now, during the world boss event, but it would be nothing compared to what would happen then.

But for the OP's request, then sure removing all rewards wouldn't cause a problem (to the way he worded it).The way he worded it, it seemed he was doing something on the map, ended up close to the bandit champ, and got owned (which is not surprising - those

were

made for fully kited out level 80 players after all). With your suggestion this would still happen, because the things he was doing in that map most likely he'd have to do in the normal version of it, not in the instanced one.

The scaling is pretty borked anyways, and it tends to get easier the more players there are, so I'm not quite feeling this one.

So why is it a problem if someone can get a collection a bit faster/easier ? All it would do is reduce some grind, it's not like they remove the entire collection with it. Sorry rally don't understand this perspective, you want things to be more grindy/take longer time ? The alternative most of the time won't make it harder or more challenging, just more tedious? And honestly I don't see a problem in rewarding organized play, if they setup a group of 5 that sets up good builds and rotations and plays in synch, that's a good thing (even for this).

Though really, that wasn't really part of my suggestion in the first place, I personally don't care much for rewards, and as such they could remove them for all I care. Or just lock the rewards to the level of the mobs, so you'd get lots of white level 1-15 gear.

Might just be my perspective, but I really don't see anything wrong in this part. I can agree a lot of other things would be iffy, but this crack-down on rewards seems... over-exaggerated ?

[Trise.2865]

Here's the thing: level scaling reminds you that you aren't as powerful as you think you are. Yes, you have grown. Yes, you are stronger. You can do things you could never have done when you first set out on your adventure... but you're still you.

To paraphrase Team Four Star (and indirectly, Dragonball creator Akira Toriyama): "power levels are billkitten"

[ArchonWing.9480]

Dying in Queensdale?

You should remember that low level gear scales poorly and you need to upgrade it with level 80 gear. It should at least be Masterwork quality or better; there's plenty for sale and should cost a total of 30 silver.

You're welcome.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@joneirikb.7506 said:The scaling is pretty borked anyways, and it tends to get easier the more players there are, so I'm not quite feeling this one.

Well if you have more people than the scaling will account for then it will seem easier. Gerent is an example of this after a completed lane joins another.

In the majority of situations, it’s generally easier to have around the maximum needed before it begins to scale. Guild hall reclamation and vinetooth prime are examples of this.

The problem with scaling is that the majority of players do not pull their weight to compensate for how much they’re upscaling things.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Dying in Queensdale?

You should remember that low level gear scales poorly and you need to upgrade it with level 80 gear. It should at least be Masterwork quality or better; there's plenty for sale and should cost a total of 30 silver.

You're welcome.

Gear isn't the issue when fighting e.g. Vic the Iron, which might have been the OP's issue in the first place.

[Astralporing.1957]

@joneirikb.7506 said:I'd be surprised if disabling an event was more complicated than going into the code and setting the timer or chance to happen or other such stat to 0.BOOM! You have just disabled said event (and all associated event chains, collections, etc) for all maps. Good job.

No idea about how difficult achievements would be, and don't really know how it would impact it anyways. Might be easier to go one shot things with shield for the shield master ?Nah, that's what the rats in sewers are for. Think more in the line of Stay of Execution, Dispersed Anomaly, or Dispelling Shadows.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Dying in Queensdale?

You should remember that low level gear scales poorly and you need to upgrade it with level 80 gear. It should at least be Masterwork quality or better; there's plenty for sale and should cost a total of 30 silver.

You're welcome.

Gear isn't the issue when fighting e.g.

Vic the Iron

, which might have been the OP's issue in the first place.

Then it would be a enemy scaling problem. I remember those toxic alliance events being in Queensdale being completely unsuitable for low levels.

[Klowdy.3126]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@"GordonFreeman.6392" said:I know alot of people like level scaling, but i hate it. Theres enough 80+ content to keep you busy. Plus whats the point of keeping hero points and levels seperate? levels are obviously pointless now since the only reason both levels and hero points are for skills now. I hate going back to Queensdale and dying to something i shouldn't even be damaged by :(. I know there are more people like me that feel the same way that don't like the level scaling, so I was wondering if a non level scaling server could be made at least. I'd switch to wow but i don't want to do the monthly subscription thing. There are so many group events i cant solo at lvl 80 and theres not enough ppl to do them with... its annoying.

Won’t do you any good to go to WoW. They have their version of level scaling they’re putting in,

zone scaling

. I suppose they feel it’s a good idea for people not to be able to hulk smash low level zones but instead still have a challenge possible wherever they go.

I think their idea was more geared toward older players helping out friends that have just started, and still having some sort of challenge to it.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Dying in Queensdale?

You should remember that low level gear scales poorly and you need to upgrade it with level 80 gear. It should at least be Masterwork quality or better; there's plenty for sale and should cost a total of 30 silver.

You're welcome.

Gear isn't the issue when fighting e.g.

Vic the Iron

, which might have been the OP's issue in the first place.

Then it would be a enemy scaling problem. I remember those toxic alliance events being in Queensdale being completely unsuitable for low levels.

No, it wouldn't be an "enemy scaling" problem. Vic the Iron cannot be defeated by simply having appropriate gear. He's one of the two "Shining Blade" bounty bosses in Queensdale and they are difficult for new players (and plenty of veterans). Many skilled players (such as yourself) can defeat them solo or in small groups. In fact, they were designed to be challenging group content for the open word. (It's been a matter of some debate whether ANet succeed with their goal on this one.)

And sure, they can be more challenging if scaled up, when, as @Ayrilana.1396 says above, the contribution of the average player grows slowly (as it tends to do).

It's possible the OP also ran into T/A members in Queensdale. However, they mentioned bandits repeatedly and I didn't see any mention of the Toxics.

---

In other words, if the OP's primary concern was bosses like Vic the Iron, then the problem can't be resolved by gear alone.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Dying in Queensdale?

You should remember that low level gear scales poorly and you need to upgrade it with level 80 gear. It should at least be Masterwork quality or better; there's plenty for sale and should cost a total of 30 silver.

You're welcome.

Gear isn't the issue when fighting e.g.

Vic the Iron

, which might have been the OP's issue in the first place.

Then it would be a enemy scaling problem. I remember those toxic alliance events being in Queensdale being completely unsuitable for low levels.

No, it wouldn't be an "enemy scaling" problem. Vic the Iron cannot be defeated by simply having appropriate gear. He's one of the two "Shining Blade" bounty bosses in Queensdale and they are difficult for new players (and plenty of veterans). Many skilled players (such as yourself) can defeat them solo or in small groups. In fact, they were designed to be challenging group content for the open word. (It's been a matter of some debate whether ANet succeed with their goal on this one.)

And sure, they can be more challenging if scaled up, when, as @Ayrilana.1396 says above, the contribution of the average player grows slowly (as it tends to do).

It's possible the OP also ran into T/A members in Queensdale. However, they mentioned bandits repeatedly and I didn't see any mention of the Toxics.

---

In other words, if the OP's primary concern was bosses like

Vic the Iron

, then the problem can't be resolved by gear alone.

Well I meant by enemy scaling, I mean by the idea that it is inappropriate to put something that is far beyond what a level appropriate character can handle. Now it's possible this particular mob has problems, but by no means should a level 80 die regularly in low zones. I don't think it should happen outside of world events in Core Tyria at all. This is why I brought up those toxic LS events in Queensdale-- they're out of whack and shouldn't be there. Queensdale is a beginner zone and should not have more difficult mobs than beyond it. That's just setting a sucker punch for noobs. And in no way does it justify removing the entire scaling system at all, because it protects newer players from having level 80s potentially ruin their gameplay by oneshotting everything (well to a degree...)

And it is true that you need to level up your gear; regardless.

[HawkXtream.1538]

Level scalling is necessary, otherwise the meta event in lower level map will be too stupid. Plus, as you mentioned, there are plenty of maps for level 80 already.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

I hate going back to Queensdale and dying to something i shouldn't even be damaged by :(

So why are you in Queensdale if there’s plenty of 80+ content to keep you busy? Why go to any of the sub-80 zones at all?

My answers to why back to Queensdale? For me, it's nostagic reasons. My ex-bf bought this game for me and he is the one that introduced me to mmo. I don't game much except for a few games that I have for my DS. So, occasionally I do missed those times when I truly enjoy playing and leveling together with my group of friends six years ago.

Sometimes when I feel bored in-game, i just wanted to run through those places or just hang around certain areas enjoying the views and beautiful environments. I like Queensdale a lot. If I am looking for challenging fights, I would go to Tangled Depths or Vabbi.

However, I do agree that it's easy to kill low level mobs, most of the time but not all the time. Unless you are a pet ranger or minion necro, you'll still be over swarmed and die when you are not paying attention or just afk. I believe this is what TC feels too. And, I also feel that it's really lame for a full ascended geared player to die in level 10 zones and we have to fought these low level mobs like they are level 80.

Anyway, when Nerfnet ANet first announced this level scaling change, they were many players who were against it. But, knowing ANet is always in favour of nerfs and with the opposite camp supporting them... so don't bother TC, we tried years ago and here we are.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Mil.3562 said:Anyway, when Nerfnet ANet first announced this level scaling change, they were many players who were against it.What level scaling change are you talking about? Downleveling was in the game at launch.

[spartan.9421]

@GordonFreeman.6392 said:

@Yargesh.4965 said:You still have not clarified how it is possible for a lvl 80 character to die from mobs in queensdale. Most champs could be solo'd before the expansions, now with new skills and builds it can't be harder. If you are dying on low level maps due to downscaling I have to guess you are also dying on lvl 80 maps.

Why can't i one shot them though?You can oneshot mobs when downscaled if you run a glass build.

if don't do anything they still shouldn't be able to damage meShould be invulnerable in that situation if I am 80.Why? What is the point of that? That would be unbearably boring.

I can die if i have 5 moa's agrroed on me and don't do anything.If you dodge, kite and heal you shouldn't be dying at all. The AI in all core Tyria maps are very stupid and can be cheesed just by bare minimum kiting.

I don't want to have tp try to fight lvl 20 bandits in kessex they should just die from my auto attack.Then don't fight them? And I mean, they do die from auto attack. Hit em once or twice and boom, dead.

[voltaicbore.8012]

Yeah, not sure GW2 is the right game for OP. As many of us said, the truly trash-grade mobs do die extremely quickly even with downscaling, and you don't even have to run a full glass build to accomplish that. The bandit champs and the legendary executioners are soloable, although the executioners do take me a ton of time to do alone - so much so that it's rare that I end up killing it without at least a few passersby hopping in on the fight.

OP might be right about many people agreeing with the statement "I don't want downscaling." However, I'd contend that plenty of other people really do want downscaling, and actually want scaling to nerf 80s even further. There was a great outcry in lower level zones when dismount skills were wiping entire swaths of mobs, before those were downscaled harder.

Seems like OP might have already moved onto another game, which is a good thing for - it doesn't sound like GW2's central tenet of fluid group events and having players of all levels and experience coexist in the same zones is what OP's looking for.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Mil.3562 said:Anyway, when

Nerfnet

ANet first announced this level scaling change, they were many players who were against it.What level scaling change are you talking about? Downleveling was in the game at launch.

No it wasn't there at launch. It was implemented later.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Mil.3562 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Mil.3562 said:Anyway, when

Nerfnet

ANet first announced this level scaling change, they were many players who were against it.What level scaling change are you talking about? Downleveling was in the game at launch.

No it wasn't there at launch. It was implemented later.

No it wasn't.

In Guild Wars 2, your effective level will scale up or down depending on the level of your groupmates and/or the content you are tackling.

https://www.engadget.com/2012/03/26/making-the-jump-from-guild-wars-to-guild-wars-2/

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1058358-Guild-Wars-2-Mass-info-for-the-uninitiated-READ-ME!

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Mil.3562 said:No it wasn't there at launch. It was implemented later.

Since there is plenty of documentation that downleveling has been in the game since launch, perhaps you could describe what your experience was during 2012-3. Were you L80 with exotic gear? Where did you go? Did you participate in the QD champ train or was it something else that caught your interest?

Or in contrast, what specific events/bosses/foes are you encountering in QD these days that you find harder than you expect? What is your specific experience in 2019 that you don't like?

Otherwise, the conversation will just keep going in the same circles, which probably isn't the result towards which you were aiming.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Since there is plenty of documentation that downleveling has been in the game since launch, perhaps you could describe what your experience was during 2012-3. Were you L80 with exotic gear? Where did you go? Did you participate in the QD champ train or was it something else that caught your interest?Well in all fairness there was at least one time when scaling was bypassed. When level 80 Eir and Rytlock walked through Ashford instakilling every player in sight because given the level difference it was the eqvivalent of ambient grey mobs trying to attack a world boss.

But presumably the one claiming there was no scaling hasnt dreamed he's Eir and forgot about the context.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Well in all fairness there was at least one time when scaling was bypassed.

My point is that we should focus on the OP's actual concern: they aren't enjoying Queensdale as L80 and they remember that they used to. So let's keep the conversation around what those actual experiences were, regardless of what the mechanics were.

Otherwise the conversation will just be "yes, it was" followed by "no, it wasn't."

[Ashen.2907]

@joneirikb.7506 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:Curious exactly how that would interact. If you just instance a copy of say Queensdale, what rewards could you get there in an instance mode you couldn't get just as easy or easier due to other players in the normal version?

Disable Achievements for safety, and disable the Shadow Behemoth and the bandit champions, so they're not farm-able.

Is there anything else there that could be worth anything that isn't just as easy to farm and get in the normal map?

Because if not, then even un-scaled doesn't really change that.One word: trading post

If you get the same loot going around one-shooting everything that you get on the scaled maps, farming the non-scaling version would require considerably less investment in time, attention and equipment for everyone, no matter how clueless they are about builds and playstyles.

Continuing to use Queensdale as an example here. You can close to 1 shot most mobs there anyways, and you wouldn't have groups of other players so on average I'd say it would even out ? But I could definitively see this on other maps (though it would reduce in efficiency the higher the level of the map).

Hmm, lets say a 50% debuff to all rewards, that should fix most of those issues, and probably be a bit overkill just for safety.

---

Friend pointed out some technical problems to me, that I can't really say since I don't know the tech ANet works with etc:

• Server Load: We don't know how much extra work creating a whole map instance would create, and how many things runs in the background compared to most other Instances (dungeons and story instances tend to have little to no background running things like vent timers and movement around in the world etc).
• User Interface: Something that seems simple to us on the front end, but can be a nightmare in many ways for the people at the back-end side.

Another place that might be easier to accomplish this from a technical and impact point of view, might be to make un-synched dungeons (remove all rewards and stuff, remove scaling). It wouldn't give you the feeling of killing everything in the open world map (which I felt was what the OP wanted), but it might be the easiest way (tech) to implement a non-scaling instance in the game.

If you can already close to one shot nirmal foes even while downscaled, then the only point to removing downscaling would be to one shot foes such as world bosses. If world bosses are removed from the no downscaling zones then what is the point of spending the time and money to implement this?

"Lets spend money to gain nothing," seems like a bad idea to me.

[Splarv.6180]

@GordonFreeman.6392 said:I know alot of people like level scaling, but i hate it.

A level scaling was the from the begining and was the key feature of GW2. GW2 was the first games that implement the level scaling, the other online games (TESO, WOW, SWTOR) only repeat it later. So if you don't acccept it just play another game. LOTRO, for instamce, also can be played without monthly subscription.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Mil.3562 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Mil.3562 said:Anyway, when

Nerfnet

ANet first announced this level scaling change, they were many players who were against it.What level scaling change are you talking about? Downleveling was in the game at launch.

No it wasn't there at launch. It was implemented later.It was already present during the very first beta events, and mentions about it predated even those. You are clearly remembering something wrong.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Mil.3562 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Mil.3562 said:Anyway, when

Nerfnet

ANet first announced this level scaling change, they were many players who were against it.What level scaling change are you talking about? Downleveling was in the game at launch.

No it wasn't there at launch. It was implemented later.

No it wasn't.

In Guild Wars 2, your effective level will scale up or down depending on the level of your groupmates and/or the content you are tackling.

https://www.engadget.com/2012/03/26/making-the-jump-from-guild-wars-to-guild-wars-2/

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1058358-Guild-Wars-2-Mass-info-for-the-uninitiated-READ-ME

!

Somehow I am very certain that I have seen topics against the implementation of level scaling, ANet named it beautifully as dynamic level adjustment, in the old forum. I don't know. Weird. My bad then -.-