The sustain of Holosmith is nuts....it's just broken

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Holo, Condi thief, core ranger, spellbreaker, zeal fb. In that order

Core ranger? Rest I get but core ranger? U must have had a bad experience lol

[mortrialus.3062]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Holo, Condi thief, core ranger, spellbreaker, zeal fb. In that order

Core ranger? Rest I get but core ranger? U must have had a bad experience lol

Core Ranger has a truly excellent 1v1 build but with Boonbeast and Sic Em Sniper no longer being FOTM most have moved on from ranger aside from dedicated mains.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"Iozeph.5617" said:These threads are rarely about balance. They're more a matter of, "Get whatever stumbling block is in the way of dominating with the profession of my choice" sorts of affairs because once this happens most people keep their heads down and they DO shut up, hoping that whatever overblown mechanic they're personally riding to victory won't be taken out further down the road.

I'm not arguing against trimming down the holosmith. What I'm talking about is that there's a chain of causality that leads to where we are today. Where do you personally draw the line? How far are you willing to role back for the sake of balance? Was there ever a period where you felt most professions stood an even chance in competitive modes? Because as I mentioned before otherwise this is just peeling back the layers of the onion. It won't end with Holosmith because the majority here have proven they're incapable of stopping when it comes to crying for nerfs. The thread history here speaks to that.

So let's gut Holosmith. And next let's gut firebrand. Then let's gut Scourge, then let's gut weavers, and let's gut spellbreakers, and on down the line til we're back to gutting core specs.

If this is truly about balance and keeping a game mode healthy then let's just cut to the quick and ask for every profession to be rebuilt from the ground up. Otherwise mechanically, as things are- someone has to be the loser here purely by design.

Who here personally wants to take one for the community and play that loser profession for the sake of everyone else's enjoyment?

Any takers? Anybody?

Didn't think so.

I believe the idea is not to gut but shave them down so their closer in line with other specs, yeah nature of the beast means they may still be slightly OP or slight under performing but that's better than say where scourge/firebrand are in wvw or where holo is in pvp where they are grossly overperforming.

[Math.5123]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Holo, Condi thief, core ranger, spellbreaker, zeal fb. In that order

Core ranger? Rest I get but core ranger? U must have had a bad experience lol

Core ranger is probably the strongest 1v1 build right now.

[Widmo.3186]

@Iozeph.5617 said:Was there ever a period where you felt most professions stood an even chance in competitive modes? Because as I mentioned before otherwise this is just peeling back the layers of the onion.

Even is wrong word. Life is not fair and so are not video games. But if I had to choose period where I enjoyed playing all classes (or against them), their builds and didnt get angry because of power creep or classes being stupidly OP is HoT, or Vanilla...or just everything before PoF. Core was core, then HoT came with what?Couple healing specs (tempest, druid) traps (DH), mobility (DD, Herald), damage/utility (Reaper, Chrono) and also Zerker and Scrapper. While playing any of those or against any of those I didnt feel like overwhelmed because of spec itself. And I was in multiplied Legendary division every season, with different classes, so I had lil' bit experience.

Then PoF came, with what? Healing machine with boonspam (FB), handicapped to infinity (Spellbroken), imbagon of healing, damage and utility (Holo), boonspam or pewpew fiesta (SB), easy permastealth with oneshot out of stealth possibility without counterplay (DE), evade machine (Weaver), evade machine but also condi spam and spamming skills during evade sate (Mirage), condi and barrier AoE spam (Scourge) and also Renegade.

Thats how it looks to me when I think about core specs, HoT and PoF. After several nerfs imo what needs tuning down atm is Holo and condi teef. Rest (if exist) are minor issues that can wait. Might be just my opinion, but what made balance really weird and caused it to go wrong way was PoF.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Just curious. Say they gutted holo tomorrow. Would any of you shut up? And if not, then what would be the next profession you'd beg for to be gutted, because by the tone of the threads in this sub forum whichever one becomes the top of the heap after holo is going to be the one most whinged over til it's also gutted.

The guy in the professions forums had it right. Just give everyone a stick and have done.

Holo, Condi thief, core ranger, spellbreaker, zeal fb. In that order

Core ranger? Rest I get but core ranger? U must have had a bad experience lol

Core ranger is probably the strongest 1v1 build right now.

Yeah I'm not sure about that. Holo, core warrior, splb, a good weaver and a good mirage crap on core ranger. Core ranger isnt even in a great spot comparably

[Chaith.8256]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Yeah I'm not sure about that. Holo, core warrior, splb, a good weaver and a good mirage kitten on core ranger. Core ranger isnt even in a great spot comparably

Core ranger, no doubt, is as good as Angeels is saying. He's talking about at a high end level of play, and from your comments in other threads about how it takes 2 people to kill a scrapper on live now, you don't have knowledge of 1v1 matchups in the high end.

An average core ranger might not seem to be the best at 1v1s, that's what you see.

[Aeolus.3615]

I would make photon forge burn the boons by 40% faster at minimium to at a max of 60%, utilities that were being used while on photon forge would gain exhaustion based on heat.

Would remove the damage on overheat, what would happen would be photon forge gains good amount of exhaustion, just like gw1 exhaustion works in gw1.

Damage could stay I think since holos would be forced to paybatention and play better due exhaustion and boon burning faster.

Alacrity would still help your exhausted holo recovering.

[Dreams.3128]

@Aeolus.3615 said:I would make photon forge burn the boons by 40% faster at minimium to at a max of 60%, utilities that were being used while on photon forge would gain exhaustion based on heat.

Would remove the damage on overheat, what would happen would be photon forge gains good amount of exhaustion, just like gw1 exhaustion works in gw1.

Damage could stay I think since holos would be forced to paybatention and play better due exhaustion and boon burning faster.

Alacrity would still help your exhausted holo recovering.

Doesn't make sense to give them exhaustion. Making heat build up incredibly fast makes more sense. Allowing them to only get like one or two forge skills out his way better because then they will have to rely on their rifle, tool, and kits more than the forge itself. Thus, the skills returns. Obviously you'll go in and properly balance their other traits for damage and sustain respectively, but have a very short forge is better than basically tearing the class up from random whack a mole mechanics and nerfs.~Now for a response to what needs to be nerfed: Lol at people wanting to hit core classes now like ranger. Since we're at it how about we hit FA ele because people hate 'instacasts', nerf core engie because alchemy is still 'busted', core thief because it does 'too much' and core guard-

Oh wait, y'all already complained about core guard and look where it is at now? Dumpstered because guard mains were struggling to put out the same damage as other classes, so now they have to play BURN just to keep up. Do you people even see what you're doing anymore? We are basically gonna come to the point where NO ONE wants to play these classes anymore and leave because everything is a skeleton of itself. How is that helpful balance at all?

[Aeolus.3615]

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:I would make photon forge burn the boons by 40% faster at minimium to at a max of 60%, utilities that were being used while on photon forge would gain exhaustion based on heat.

Would remove the damage on overheat, what would happen would be photon forge gains good amount of exhaustion, just like gw1 exhaustion works in gw1.

Damage could stay I think since holos would be forced to paybatention and play better due exhaustion and boon burning faster.

Alacrity would still help your exhausted holo recovering.

Doesn't make sense to give them exhaustion. Making heat build up incredibly fast makes more sense. Allowing them to only get like one or two forge skills out his way better because then they will have to rely on their rifle, tool, and kits more than the forge itself. Thus, the skills returns. Obviously you'll go in and properly balance their other traits for damage and sustain respectively, but have a very short forge is better than basically tearing the class up from random whack a mole mechanics and nerfs.~Now for a response to what needs to be nerfed: Lol at people wanting to hit core classes now like ranger. Since we're at it how about we hit FA ele because people hate 'instacasts', nerf core engie because alchemy is still 'busted', core thief because it does 'too much' and core guard-

Oh wait, y'all already complained about core guard and look where it is at now? Dumpstered because guard mains were struggling to put out the same damage as other classes, so now they have to play BURN just to keep up. Do you people even see what you're doing anymore? We are basically gonna come to the point where NO ONE wants to play these classes anymore and leave because everything is a skeleton of itself. How is that helpful balance at all?

Players would have to learn and spam gameplay less, but making overheat faster can work as well.

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Iozeph.5617" said:These threads are rarely about balance. They're more a matter of, "Get whatever stumbling block is in the way of dominating with the profession of my choice" sorts of affairs because once this happens most people keep their heads down and they DO shut up, hoping that whatever overblown mechanic they're personally riding to victory won't be taken out further down the road.

I'm not arguing against trimming down the holosmith. What I'm talking about is that there's a chain of causality that leads to where we are today. Where do you personally draw the line? How far are you willing to role back for the sake of balance? Was there ever a period where you felt most professions stood an even chance in competitive modes? Because as I mentioned before otherwise this is just peeling back the layers of the onion. It won't end with Holosmith because the majority here have proven they're incapable of stopping when it comes to crying for nerfs. The thread history here speaks to that.

So let's gut Holosmith. And next let's gut firebrand. Then let's gut Scourge, then let's gut weavers, and let's gut spellbreakers, and on down the line til we're back to gutting core specs.

If this is truly about balance and keeping a game mode healthy then let's just cut to the quick and ask for every profession to be rebuilt from the ground up. Otherwise mechanically, as things are- someone has to be the loser here purely by design.

Who here personally wants to take one for the community and play that loser profession for the sake of everyone else's enjoyment?

Any takers? Anybody?

Didn't think so.

It's Anet job to discern legittimate feedback from hateful gibberish which is roughly 90% of the forum feedback, I specifically said that it's in nobody interest to destroy classes and barring them from performing in their given role, nobody can stop the daily influx of daily nerf threads mostly based on anectodal evidence and hyperboles from ill informed individuals .

[Arheundel.6451]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Yeah I'm not sure about that. Holo, core warrior, splb, a good weaver and a good mirage kitten on core ranger. Core ranger isnt even in a great spot comparably

Core ranger, no doubt, is as good as Angeels is saying. He's talking about at a high end level of play, and from your comments in other threads about how it takes 2 people to kill a scrapper on live now, you don't have knowledge of 1v1 matchups in the high end.

An average core ranger might not seem to be the best at 1v1s, that's what you see.

With every post you make..you sound more like your typical forum warrior hell bent on nerfing to the ground everything that it's not his class, creating as many revenge nerf posts as possible........and much less the "TOP" player I remember you were supposed to be.

Honestly I'd love to have you jumping on core ranger and show me this "best duellist" build of yours, I am very interested..but let me guess with what you'd come : GS/LB rock gazelle-smokescale..kk sure

[shadowpass.4236]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Core ranger is probably the strongest 1v1 build right now.

Prot holo is the strongest 1v1 build right now. It only has a single losing matchup that it will rarely (almost never) come across in an actual game.

[Chaith.8256]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:With every post you make..you sound more like your typical forum warrior hell bent on nerfing to the ground everything that it's not his class, creating as many revenge nerf posts as possible........and much less the "TOP" player I remember you were supposed to be.

Honestly I'd love to have you jumping on core ranger and show me this "best duellist" build of yours, I am very interested..but let me guess with what you'd come : GS/LB rock gazelle-smokescale..kk sure

You have problems man, disregarding that, I trust Angeels opinion on a lot of things because he's mechanically a good player, and has insight into high end matchups. Seriously dunno how you see me hell bent on nerfing other classes and I don't even know what a revenge post is, speak to a professional

[Arheundel.6451]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:With every post you make..you sound more like your typical forum warrior hell bent on nerfing to the ground everything that it's not his class, creating as many revenge nerf posts as possible........and much less the "TOP" player I remember you were supposed to be.

Honestly I'd love to have you jumping on core ranger and show me this "best duellist" build of yours, I am very interested..but let me guess with what you'd come : GS/LB rock gazelle-smokescale..kk sure

You have problems man, disregarding that, I trust Angeels opinion on a lot of things because he's mechanically a good player, and has insight into high end matchups. Seriously dunno how you see me hell bent on nerfing other classes and I don't even know what a revenge post is, speak to a professional

Can't you keep the discussion limited to the videogame as we are in a videogame forum? Going as far as with personal attacks , insinuations about my mental stability? ...Tried to be respectfull....but you're a lost cause , I suggest you to reduce your playtime to one day per week....

[Vagrant.7206]

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Then PoF came, with what? Healing machine with boonspam (FB), handicapped to infinity (Spellbroken), imbagon of healing, damage and utility (Holo), boonspam or pewpew fiesta (SB), easy permastealth with oneshot out of stealth possibility without counterplay (DE), evade machine (Weaver), evade machine but also condi spam and spamming skills during evade sate (Mirage), condi and barrier AoE spam (Scourge) and also Renegade.

Thats how it looks to me when I think about core specs, HoT and PoF. After several nerfs imo what needs tuning down atm is Holo and condi teef. Rest (if exist) are minor issues that can wait. Might be just my opinion, but what made balance really weird and caused it to go wrong way was PoF.

I know everyone sees the past through rose-tinted glasses, but HoT and Core had their balance problems too. The leadup to HoT standardized a lot of things, but also messed up a lot of builds too. There's never been a time with perfect balance, although I say right before HoT may have had the closest we've come to true balance.

[Math.5123]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Core ranger is probably the strongest 1v1 build right now.

Prot holo is

the

strongest 1v1 build right now. It only has a single losing matchup that it will rarely (almost never) come across in an actual game.

And which single matchup is that? They lose to mirage unless they run conversion, if they run conversion they lose to just about every power spec out there.They can't really kill Spb, they lose to Condi thief. Pretty sure it loses to fire Weaver. It will never kill a core ranger.

[Arkantos.7460]

just cute his stability from holo and i will have my fun

[Shaquille Oatmeal.2976]

@Ryan.9387 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ryan.9387 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:How can a holosmtih with a

demolisher amulet

heals for far more than a

mender tempest

?

They don't.

Interrupt their heal. Interrupt their combo finishers in their water field if you miss the intterrupt on their heal.

Easier said than done considering you can expect a holosmith to both be covered by Stability a majority of the time and/or do it while quickness boosted, or while dropping a quickness boosted Toss Elixir S,

then

doing it.

But seriously, I've done the math. Healing Turret is heads and shoulders above almost every healing outside of extremely situational healing skills like Herald's Infuse Light and Warrior's Defensive Stance even before they start comboing into the field with other skills.

They get stab when they land holo 3 and when casting elixer u. Two sources, one of which you can prevent entirely by not getting hit by that particular skill.

You sound the same as every person endlessly complaining about spellbreaker, mirage, holo, condi thief, etc, etc, etc. Here are the reasons pretty much everyone in here can't beat a holo.

1) Your build is bad.Solution: find the best player for your class and use their build.2) You don't understand how holo really works.Solution: play holo for a few weeks and learn the class.3) The holo player is better than you mechanically.Solution: put forth serious effort to improve your basic mechanics.

If your build is good, if you know how the other class works, and if you are better than the other player you will beat them.

Let's just embrace the fact that holo is broken, cuz it is.

[kraai.7265]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Tried condi renegade today for the first time. rekt 2 holo's.

Whats the issue again?

I love when shortminded people say this kind of things, so what are you expecting genius? all the ones having trouble with holo to switch to renegade and thats it? problem solved? new meta holos vs renegades, stupid logic, the idea is to be able to enjoy the game using any class you want, not to be constantly swapping in order to counter one spec, that game style sucks.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@kraai.7265 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Tried condi renegade today for the first time. rekt 2 holo's.

Whats the issue again?

I love when shortminded people say this kind of things, so what are you expecting genius? all the ones having trouble with holo to switch to renegade and thats it? problem solved? new meta holos vs renegades, stupid logic, the idea is to be able to enjoy the game using any class you want, not to be constantly swapping in order to counter one spec, that game style sucks.

Equal skill level, no class/build can beat all others, so some form of counterplay is needed/expected. With your statement, I should be able to beat a condi mirage while carrying no condi clears despite the build I am running. Play as you will, but you cant complain that you have to swap a toon to beat a spec and have it not make sense. Anyone who had ever played a PvP match/game in general can tell you this. I played what I believed what would be a counter and I beat them (beat way more in both PvP and WvW since my initial post). Adapt and overcome. The sooner you accept this, the better you will become.

What else ya got?

[kraai.7265]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@kraai.7265 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Tried condi renegade today for the first time. rekt 2 holo's.

Whats the issue again?

I love when shortminded people say this kind of things, so what are you expecting genius? all the ones having trouble with holo to switch to renegade and thats it? problem solved? new meta holos vs renegades, stupid logic, the idea is to be able to enjoy the game using any class you want, not to be constantly swapping in order to counter one spec, that game style sucks.

Equal skill level, no class/build can beat all others, so some form of counterplay is needed/expected. With your statement, I should be able to beat a condi mirage while carrying no condi clears despite the build I am running. Play as you will, but you cant complain that you have to swap a toon to beat a spec and have it not make sense. Anyone who had ever played a PvP match/game in general can tell you this. I played what I believed what would be a counter and I beat them (beat way more in both PvP and WvW since my initial post). Adapt and overcome. The sooner you accept this, the better you will become.

What else ya got?

it's still sad, and btw of course classes need a counter in this game, it's how it was designed originally, the problem comes when a class can counter several specs and builds, outshine some others and on top of it all it's easy to play and master, so even a noob spamming skills without even knowing everything they do can excel in pvp against others with no hustle (it was litteraly my case, i was sick of holo so i made one and i won like 10 straight games the first day just spamming keys)

[Sovarica.4368]

Very unfun with Holo being so potent it's very draining the way they can turn matches around

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Sovari.7246 said:Very unfun with Holo being so potent it's very draining the way they can turn matches around

Had a 3 matches in a row without holo or thief, the most fun I had in the game by a longshot.

[Dreams.3128]

@Sovari.7246 said:Very unfun with Holo being so potent it's very draining the way they can turn matches around

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@kraai.7265 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Tried condi renegade today for the first time. rekt 2 holo's.

Whats the issue again?

I love when shortminded people say this kind of things, so what are you expecting genius? all the ones having trouble with holo to switch to renegade and thats it? problem solved? new meta holos vs renegades, stupid logic, the idea is to be able to enjoy the game using any class you want, not to be constantly swapping in order to counter one spec, that game style sucks.

Equal skill level, no class/build can beat all others, so some form of counterplay is needed/expected. With your statement, I should be able to beat a condi mirage while carrying no condi clears despite the build I am running. Play as you will, but you cant complain that you have to swap a toon to beat a spec and have it not make sense. Anyone who had ever played a PvP match/game in general can tell you this. I played what I believed what would be a counter and I beat them (beat way more in both PvP and WvW since my initial post). Adapt and overcome. The sooner you accept this, the better you will become.

What else ya got?

You ran Kalla or just had Renegade traitline? I have yet to determine if Kalla is actually useful or not.