Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Upcoming PvP Balance Complaints

Crab Fear.1624

By Crab Fear.1624
in Player vs. Player

 Share

Recommended Posts

mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

Posted
Posted

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

5s duration, 8s cooldown

and shield has 4s uptime on 24s cd.

seems spammable to me.

....... Tied to ToC on 75s CD. Nobody sits in ToC doing nothing, so its effectively 75s CD. If they do, then that's a win for you.

Shield isn't a reflect.

???

If you watch good firebrands play they absolutely will stop casting pages to get the more high value pages as they're needed.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Huh? Is there a list of upcoming changes?

Basically, Grimjack Weaver meta is going to occur middle of this season when next patch is dropped. If you see that kid on a node, don't 1v1 him, just walk away. Weaver is going to be obtusely dominant at sode node play, very very soon.

Yeah with 50% nerfed Chaos Vortex I don't see how a Mirage is ever going to be able to duel them 1v1 anymore when competent weavers are already your hardest match up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 69
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Ragnar.4257

Ragnar.4257

Posted
Posted

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

5s duration, 8s cooldown

and shield has 4s uptime on 24s cd.

seems spammable to me.

....... Tied to ToC on 75s CD. Nobody sits in ToC doing nothing, so its effectively 75s CD. If they do, then that's a win for you.

Shield isn't a reflect.

???

If you watch good firebrands play they absolutely will stop casting pages to get the more high value pages as they're needed. > @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Huh? Is there a list of upcoming changes?

Basically, Grimjack Weaver meta is going to occur middle of this season when next patch is dropped. If you see that kid on a node, don't 1v1 him, just walk away. Weaver is going to be obtusely dominant at sode node play, very very soon.

Yeah with 50% nerfed Chaos Vortex I don't see how a Mirage is ever going to be able to duel them 1v1 anymore when competent weavers are already your hardest match up.

To be honest, I didn't come here to debate how to use ToC. IMO holding on to ToC for a 2nd dome is worth doing against Deadeyes and Sic'Em SBs, but generally not mirages. There's other stuff you need to be doing.

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of stating that your own stuff is actually balanced and totally blown out of all proportion by whiners, when you see the exact same coming the other way. Listening to certain people, no names, you'd think FB 100% nullifies mirage 100% of the time. Would you not agree that is hyperbolic?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

Posted
Posted

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

5s duration, 8s cooldown

and shield has 4s uptime on 24s cd.

seems spammable to me.

....... Tied to ToC on 75s CD. Nobody sits in ToC doing nothing, so its effectively 75s CD. If they do, then that's a win for you.

Shield isn't a reflect.

???

If you watch good firebrands play they absolutely will stop casting pages to get the more high value pages as they're needed. > @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Huh? Is there a list of upcoming changes?

Basically, Grimjack Weaver meta is going to occur middle of this season when next patch is dropped. If you see that kid on a node, don't 1v1 him, just walk away. Weaver is going to be obtusely dominant at sode node play, very very soon.

Yeah with 50% nerfed Chaos Vortex I don't see how a Mirage is ever going to be able to duel them 1v1 anymore when competent weavers are already your hardest match up.

To be honest, I didn't come here to debate how to use ToC.

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of stating that your own stuff is actually balanced and totally blown out of all proportion by whiners, when you see the exact same coming the other way.

blow out of proportion? you realize you can put dome after dome after dome of reflect every 8show much more spammy can it get?

other stuff? like providing AoE pulsing resistance, that just happens to be tied to ToC too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
NorthernRedStar.3054

NorthernRedStar.3054

Posted
Posted

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

5s duration, 8s cooldown

and shield has 4s uptime on 24s cd.

seems spammable to me.

....... Tied to ToC on 75s CD. Nobody sits in ToC doing nothing, so its effectively 75s CD. If they do, then that's a win for you.

Shield isn't a reflect.

???

If you watch good firebrands play they absolutely will stop casting pages to get the more high value pages as they're needed. > @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Huh? Is there a list of upcoming changes?

Basically, Grimjack Weaver meta is going to occur middle of this season when next patch is dropped. If you see that kid on a node, don't 1v1 him, just walk away. Weaver is going to be obtusely dominant at sode node play, very very soon.

Yeah with 50% nerfed Chaos Vortex I don't see how a Mirage is ever going to be able to duel them 1v1 anymore when competent weavers are already your hardest match up.

To be honest, I didn't come here to debate how to use ToC. IMO holding on to ToC for a 2nd dome is worth doing against Deadeyes and Sic'Em SBs, but generally not mirages. There's other stuff you need to be doing.

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of stating that your own stuff is actually balanced and totally blown out of all proportion by whiners, when you see the exact same coming the other way.

lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Axl.8924

Axl.8924

Posted
Posted

pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ragnar.4257

Ragnar.4257

Posted
Posted

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

5s duration, 8s cooldown

and shield has 4s uptime on 24s cd.

seems spammable to me.

....... Tied to ToC on 75s CD. Nobody sits in ToC doing nothing, so its effectively 75s CD. If they do, then that's a win for you.

Shield isn't a reflect.

???

If you watch good firebrands play they absolutely will stop casting pages to get the more high value pages as they're needed. > @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Huh? Is there a list of upcoming changes?

Basically, Grimjack Weaver meta is going to occur middle of this season when next patch is dropped. If you see that kid on a node, don't 1v1 him, just walk away. Weaver is going to be obtusely dominant at sode node play, very very soon.

Yeah with 50% nerfed Chaos Vortex I don't see how a Mirage is ever going to be able to duel them 1v1 anymore when competent weavers are already your hardest match up.

To be honest, I didn't come here to debate how to use ToC.

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of stating that your own stuff is actually balanced and totally blown out of all proportion by whiners, when you see the exact same coming the other way.

blow out of proportion? you realize you can put dome after dome after dome of reflect every 8show much more spammy can it get?

other stuff? like providing AoE pulsing resistance, that just happens to be tied to ToC too.

No. You can't.

Not without locking yourself out of weapon-skills and all other tome skills for a very long period.

If you sit in ToC just to use Dome on cooldown, it'll take 52 seconds to burn through all pages. 52 seconds of doing literally nothing other than put out dome. That's also 52 seconds you've added to the cooldown on ToC, so its now effectively 127s cooldown. 52 seconds where you can't use shield or staff.

How happy do you think my team-mates will be with me not using any other skills for 52 seconds?

Show me the tournament footage of an FB sitting in ToC and using nothing but dome. I'll wait. The most times you'll ever find a tome skill being used per-tome is twice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

Posted
Posted

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mini Crinny.6190

Mini Crinny.6190

Posted
Posted

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

Posted
Posted

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.I'd bet on it so have fun :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

Posted
Posted

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Ur right I should not have said pvp and wvw because I haven't played wvw enough recently to make that claim if I'm being honest

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mini Crinny.6190

Mini Crinny.6190

Posted
Posted

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.I'd bet on it so have fun :)

I'm all for nerfs, so long as they are fair and with anet's track record on Ele, then it'll be fun to see weaver have a glimpse of being good at something until its thrown back down the barrel for the next 2 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ZDragon.3046

ZDragon.3046

Posted
Posted

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.I'd bet on it so have fun :)

burn damage is a bit high it ramps like power damage which is not what conditional damage is suppose to do. By that standard it is quite out of control even if you do know how to play against it. 1 mistake possible even 2 mistakes or mis reads shouldn't mean immediate death. Even more so when its put on a class that has optional dodges on multiple weapon skills and its utility while also having the power to output damage while being evasive.

That said all it needs is its burn stacks per certain skill adjusted so its not doing power like damage on a build that offers so much sustain.

The kicker is that its a hot topic for classes that have high evasion ability while having the ability to toss out damage at the same time. This is likely the biggest concern more than the fact that burn weaver melts you like butter in a hot sauce pan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

Posted
Posted

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.I'd bet on it so have fun :)

I'm all for nerfs, so long as they are fair and with anet's track record on Ele, then it'll be fun to see weaver have a glimpse of being good at something until its thrown back down the barrel for the next 2 years.

But it shouldn't have to be op or useless, I think that's the hope with the new team no?Slight shave on ele's burn bursts arnt going to kill the class as they definitely have the ability right now to stay in a fight. Even if fire weavers etc kept most their condi pressure I'd be fine as long as they were actually high damage low sustain but right now if someone's really good on ele the burst to sustain is a bit high. I definitely do not want ele gutted or any class for that matter as I kno every class has alot of fellow players that enjoy it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

Posted
Posted

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.I'd bet on it so have fun :)

burn damage is a bit high it ramps like power damage which is not what conditional damage is suppose to do. By that standard it is quite out of control even if you do know how to play against it. 1 mistake possible even 2 mistakes or mis reads shouldn't mean immediate death. Even more so when its put on a class that has optional dodges on multiple weapon skills and its utility while also having the power to output damage while being evasive.

That said all it needs is its burn stacks per certain skill adjusted so its not doing power like damage on a build that offers so much sustain.

The kicker is that its a hot topic for classes that have high evasion ability while having the ability to toss out damage at the same time. This is likely the biggest concern more than the fact that burn weaver melts you like butter in a hot sauce pan.

I think it's more the state of condi's is OP rather than weavers OP same for other condi specs. Using weaver as a example its dots rival some burst damage amounts and are able to be constantly applied far easier than they can be cleansed all while being able to take a beating. Yes bad ele's or players just learning get destroyed fast cuz ele at base is very squishy but a player that knows how to build it and use its defensive tools its like the most offensive/defensive class only rivaled by holo but for different reasons.This will be aperant soon enough lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ZDragon.3046

ZDragon.3046

Posted
Posted

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.I'd bet on it so have fun :)

burn damage is a bit high it ramps like power damage which is not what conditional damage is suppose to do. By that standard it is quite out of control even if you do know how to play against it. 1 mistake possible even 2 mistakes or mis reads shouldn't mean immediate death. Even more so when its put on a class that has optional dodges on multiple weapon skills and its utility while also having the power to output damage while being evasive.

That said all it needs is its burn stacks per certain skill adjusted so its not doing power like damage on a build that offers so much sustain.

The kicker is that its a hot topic for classes that have high evasion ability while having the ability to toss out damage at the same time. This is likely the biggest concern more than the fact that burn weaver melts you like butter in a hot sauce pan.

I think it's more the state of condi's is OP rather than weavers OP same for other condi specs. Using weaver as a example its dots rival some burst damage amounts and are able to be constantly applied far easier than they can be cleansed all while being able to take a beating. Yes bad ele's or players just learning get destroyed fast cuz ele at base is very squishy but a player that knows how to build it and use its defensive tools its like the most offensive/defensive class only rivaled by holo but for different reasons.This will be aperant soon enough lol

Regardless burn stacking in such high amounts that it ramps faster than power focused damage is not ok. Thats why its suppose to be condition damage damage over time not instant damage like power damage which is currently what burning can translate to with weaver. The constant application you speak of is likely referencing mirage as nothing else really constantly applies conditions as well as that also ramps too fast for the sustain they have.

Ideally condition builds that are not the meta profession/elites right now are the balanced ones, their ramp is slow, they are not super safe while attacking and applying conditions, and they dont have a ton of sustain backing up the time required to kill with conditions. Everything else is way out of hand. That unfortunately includes weaver.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

Posted
Posted

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"

5s duration, 8s cooldown

and shield has 4s uptime on 24s cd.

seems spammable to me.

....... Tied to ToC on 75s CD. Nobody sits in ToC doing nothing, so its effectively 75s CD. If they do, then that's a win for you.

Shield isn't a reflect.

???

If you watch good firebrands play they absolutely will stop casting pages to get the more high value pages as they're needed. > @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Huh? Is there a list of upcoming changes?

Basically, Grimjack Weaver meta is going to occur middle of this season when next patch is dropped. If you see that kid on a node, don't 1v1 him, just walk away. Weaver is going to be obtusely dominant at sode node play, very very soon.

Yeah with 50% nerfed Chaos Vortex I don't see how a Mirage is ever going to be able to duel them 1v1 anymore when competent weavers are already your hardest match up.

To be honest, I didn't come here to debate how to use ToC.

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of stating that your own stuff is actually balanced and totally blown out of all proportion by whiners, when you see the exact same coming the other way.

blow out of proportion? you realize you can put dome after dome after dome of reflect every 8show much more spammy can it get?

other stuff? like providing AoE pulsing resistance, that just happens to be tied to ToC too.

No. You can't.

Not without locking yourself out of weapon-skills and all other tome skills for a very long period.

If you sit in ToC just to use Dome on cooldown, it'll take 52 seconds to burn through all pages. 52 seconds of doing literally nothing other than put out dome. That's also 52 seconds you've added to the cooldown on ToC, so its now effectively 127s cooldown. 52 seconds where you can't use shield or staff.

How happy do you think my team-mates will be with me not using any other skills for 52 seconds?

Show me the tournament footage of an FB sitting in ToC and using nothing but dome. I'll wait. The most times you'll ever find a tome skill being used per-tome is twice.

use your head mate, im not asking you to sit on 1 tome all game, pop a bouble, do some taunting, pop resist, pop another dome and switch.gj! you spend 9-10s to make 5s of reflect bouble, followed by pulsing resistance ( that makes condimes useless too ) folowed by another reflect dome.now your skills/other tomes recharged, time to spam other heals/boons.there is also a big difference between making yourself untouchable, and making someone unable to touch both you and entire team.if mes disorts, you can still attack his teammates, if you put reflect dome, mirage has to fuck off for 5s or pick his nose becouse all he has is projectiles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Yannir.4132

Yannir.4132

Posted
Posted

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Huh? Is there a list of upcoming changes?

Basically, Grimjack Weaver meta is going to occur middle of this season when next patch is dropped. If you see that kid on a node, don't 1v1 him, just walk away. Weaver is going to be obtusely dominant at sode node play, very very soon.

This is kind of a tough issue to tackle because it solely exists in plat1 and higher play levels. Any Weaver below the required skill level will make mistakes in their skill-chaining and/or conserving their cooldowns and get themselves 100-0'd by anything that knows how to press a damage skill. In other words, any Weaver below the required skill level is an easy kill to a player of equal skill on another class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Alwayshappy.2549

Alwayshappy.2549

Posted
Posted

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.I'd bet on it so have fun :)

I'm all for nerfs, so long as they are fair and with anet's track record on Ele, then it'll be fun to see weaver have a glimpse of being good at something until its thrown back down the barrel for the next 2 years.

But it shouldn't have to be op or useless, I think that's the hope with the new team no?Slight shave on ele's burn bursts arnt going to kill the class as they definitely have the ability right now to stay in a fight. Even if fire weavers etc kept most their condi pressure I'd be fine as long as they were actually high damage low sustain
but right now if someone's really good on ele the burst to sustain is a bit high
. I definitely do not want ele gutted or any class for that matter as I kno every class has alot of fellow players that enjoy it.

To be fair, the bolded part can be said about every class out there. A good thief will seem more OP than a thief in bronze...playing the exact same build. Same for Firebrands. Same for Mirages. Same for Holosmiths, etc. I have no issues dealing with 90% of the weavers out there. The other 10%? Yeah, I lose against them, because they are skilled weavers. Or just more skilled than me anyway. I don't go the forums to complain about OP weavers; I just accept I have to find other ways to deal with the skilled ones out there.

Up to plat it's a gamble what you get imo. When I see a Firebrand or Holo on the other side it doesn't automatically mean I lose, because those builds are OP. The people behind it may be skilled; more skilled than me, but that doesn't make the build OP. It just means I have to learn more. How to play against players who are more skilled than I am.

PVP would look a lot different if people would just try to improve themselves, not tilt, etc. Most people just assume that if they see a Firebrand (or Weaver in your case) it's an instant loss. Happens so often in games. There's a big difference between skilled players and OP builds. That's just not something some people would like to hear.

Yes, nerfs are necessary sometimes, but it's not as big a problem as some people make it out to be sometimes. And imo weavers don't deserve nerfs at all atm. You just have to know how to play against them. Also; accept that your build can't win against everything. There are counters everywhere. Just because a weaver wins from you...doesn't mean they can't be beaten easily by other classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

Posted
Posted

@Alwayshappy.2549 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.I'd bet on it so have fun :)

I'm all for nerfs, so long as they are fair and with anet's track record on Ele, then it'll be fun to see weaver have a glimpse of being good at something until its thrown back down the barrel for the next 2 years.

But it shouldn't have to be op or useless, I think that's the hope with the new team no?Slight shave on ele's burn bursts arnt going to kill the class as they definitely have the ability right now to stay in a fight. Even if fire weavers etc kept most their condi pressure I'd be fine as long as they were actually high damage low sustain
but right now if someone's really good on ele the burst to sustain is a bit high
. I definitely do not want ele gutted or any class for that matter as I kno every class has alot of fellow players that enjoy it.

To be fair, the bolded part can be said about every class out there. A good thief will seem more OP than a thief in bronze...playing the exact same build. Same for Firebrands. Same for Mirages. Same for Holosmiths, etc. I have no issues dealing with 90% of the weavers out there. The other 10%? Yeah, I lose against them, because they are skilled weavers. Or just more skilled than me anyway.

Up to plat it's a gamble what you get imo. When I see a Firebrand or Holo on the other side it doesn't automatically mean I lose, because those builds are OP. The people behind it may be skilled; more skilled than me, but that doesn't make the build OP. It just means I have to learn more. How to play against players who are more skilled than I am.

PVP would look a lot different if people would just try to improve themselves, not tilt, etc. Most people just assume that if they see a Firebrand (or Weaver in your case) it's an instant loss. Happens so often in games. There's a big difference between skilled players and OP builds. That's just not something some people would like to hear.

I get ur point. Guess we'll see how they and others are doing after the changes. Worrying about balance in this game is to exhausting for how much I play it these days lol so I'm kinda impartial to anything these days, least the balance patch will be a change up, doesn't really matter to me what kind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

Posted
Posted

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"Scoobaniec.9561" said:Huh? Is there a list of upcoming changes?

Basically, Grimjack Weaver meta is going to occur middle of this season when next patch is dropped. If you see that kid on a node, don't 1v1 him, just walk away. Weaver is going to be obtusely dominant at sode node play, very very soon.

This is kind of a tough issue to tackle because it solely exists in plat1 and higher play levels. Any Weaver below the required skill level will make mistakes in their skill-chaining and/or conserving their cooldowns and get themselves 100-0'd by anything that knows how to press a damage skill. In other words, any Weaver below the required skill level is an easy kill to a player of equal skill on another class.

Yeah, Guild Wars 2 competitive modes have always had a couple of problems that stand out, which ultimately are the catalysts for questionable balance direction:

  1. Exactly what you just said. Some things are REALLY strong when played by more experienced players, but are too complex for less experienced players to use viably at all. Which brings in the idea of Skill Floor and Skill Ceiling. Which in turn creates the argument of: "Should balance be based on top tier performance or the bell curve majority performance?" I've seen people argue about this to no end, vouching for one side or the other. But the truth is.. it should be based on both. This would incorporate much mechanical overhaul, and not necessarily changes to attribute tied statistics at all.
  2. Then you have things that take the idea of "Rock/Paper/Scissor" way too far. Look at Deadeye as example. It's seriously completely useless against certain builds, but then is way too strong against others. So it is "hit or miss" both literally and figuratively. You're either dominating on it while in a good match vs. many things you counter, or you're getting countered so hard you can't breath. This serves only to create a split in its identity concerning "Is it too strong?" You can't really narrowly label it with a single Yes or No, because it is in fact way too strong vs. certain things, but is just useless against others. What makes classes like this mostly busted, is that they are very abusable for class swapping. lower tiered players who play that Deadeye for 10 matches in a row, who never log off it, aren't the ones who are making it look OP. The ones who make it look OP, and the strong players who only log on the Deadeye, when they are swapping to it, to counter an enemy team comp that is setup to be prone to the Deadeye. All of which in turn creates these weird differing opinions within various player feedback about the Deadeye. We're hearing from some players who say: "It sucks. it's useless." While other players are saying: "It's way too strong." Then they begin to argue with each other as to prove which opinion is correct. But the truth is... both opinions are correct. So what is Arenanet supposed to do?

I'm sure that 8 years in, Arenanet has no large plans for an immense mechanical overhaul, but boy would it be amazing to see happen, because that's what it would take. I personally believe that Guild Wars 2 is the one game that has a great enough of a base core combat engine, with enough hidden potential, to take the time to do this. I believe Guild Wars 2 is a game that could quickly pick back up A LOT of heat, if a serious project were launched to clean up these problems. For almost a decade now, we've all heard the majority of the player base who leaves say: "The balance is botched, which is very disappointing because this is the best and most fun combat engine that I've played." Subsequently, that same point of view is why people choose to stay. I feel like Arenanet doesn't take this seriously enough.

If they could muster the resources to do a few things:

  1. Flatten out mechanics of every class concerning Skill Floor/Skill Ceiling. Every class should be relatively equal in Skill Floor/Skill Ceiling. This would IMMEDIATELY make the game much easier to balance, when we're talking about flip flopping attribute tied statistics. But it's got to begin and end with the sheer difficulty of how easy or difficult it is to run a class/build. Worrying about balancing attribute tied statistics needs to come after that.
  2. Every class/build should provide mechanics that encourage high risk high reward play, including things like Supports. Let's face it, when things are designed for high risk high reward play, raw skill factor becomes real. This is what the game needs, a difference between good players and average players again. Right now the game feels like "Stat Balling" where sheer attributes seem to matter more than slight differences in personnel skill factor. A great example of this is oh say Reaper vs. Reaper. there isn't much that either of those Reapers can really do to "outplay" each other. The outcome of that match will largely be contributed to which Reaper simply has the better build for standing in another power build's face. On the other hand, you have match ups like D/P Thief vs. D/P Thief. Match ups like this can go either way at any time. This match up is so skill based, that an elite Thief who is already down to 10% health with only half of his utility resources available, could engage an average Thief who has 100% health and full resources, and actually win without ever getting touched at all. Every class needs to be tweaked, to better capture that type of gameplay.
  3. Seriously, remove at least half of the pixel spam that is in the game, or at least greatly individualize the graphic displays of different animations. What do I mean by this? Ok, a Spellbreaker feels good to play against because you can see what the #$%^ he's doing. It's real simple. Even Thieves, despite how fast they are, you can see what the #$%^ they're doing. However, you play against something like a Mirage or Firebrand, and there is just a bunch of small little 1 hand weapon swings that look the same, and a lot of blue & purple explosions being tossed around that completely obstruct most opportunities to even be able to see those small little 1 hand weapon swings. In most cases you have to fight these classes off of pure intuitive instinct alone, rather than being able to actually see their animations in coordination with your reflexes & reaction time. <- That kind of bullshit right there, is what makes a game feel bad to play. That design is no good for any competitive game on any platform. Players need to be able to see what the other players are doing, even if the opponent is designed to be fast like a Thief. Any advantage granted through pixel spam, should have been actual skills that required actual use. IE: Say a Thief were to drop a skill that created an enormous 600 radius smoke field, that lasted 10s, that purposely obstructed the view of any player or any animation that was inside of the smoke animation. Now you're talking a REAL blinding effect, akin to dropping a smoke bomb in an fps. Point being is that: pixel spam graphic animation obstruction is every bit as strong as having a sweet utility like the aforementioned. This is something that I really wish Arenanet would clean up, even for pve purposes.

That's my personal wish list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Alwayshappy.2549

Alwayshappy.2549

Posted
Posted

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Axl.8924 said:pers> @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.

Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.

Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.

Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.

Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

Renegade is too .....too.....too late
  1. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both

Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.

Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters

Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.

I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.

Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy

The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that

the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,

Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.I'd bet on it so have fun :)

I'm all for nerfs, so long as they are fair and with anet's track record on Ele, then it'll be fun to see weaver have a glimpse of being good at something until its thrown back down the barrel for the next 2 years.

But it shouldn't have to be op or useless, I think that's the hope with the new team no?Slight shave on ele's burn bursts arnt going to kill the class as they definitely have the ability right now to stay in a fight. Even if fire weavers etc kept most their condi pressure I'd be fine as long as they were actually high damage low sustain
but right now if someone's really good on ele the burst to sustain is a bit high
. I definitely do not want ele gutted or any class for that matter as I kno every class has alot of fellow players that enjoy it.

To be fair, the bolded part can be said about every class out there. A good thief will seem more OP than a thief in bronze...playing the exact same build. Same for Firebrands. Same for Mirages. Same for Holosmiths, etc. I have no issues dealing with 90% of the weavers out there. The other 10%? Yeah, I lose against them, because they are skilled weavers. Or just more skilled than me anyway.

Up to plat it's a gamble what you get imo. When I see a Firebrand or Holo on the other side it doesn't automatically mean I lose, because those builds are OP. The people behind it may be skilled; more skilled than me, but that doesn't make the build OP. It just means I have to learn more. How to play against players who are more skilled than I am.

PVP would look a lot different if people would just try to improve themselves, not tilt, etc. Most people just assume that if they see a Firebrand (or Weaver in your case) it's an instant loss. Happens so often in games. There's a big difference between skilled players and OP builds. That's just not something some people would like to hear.

I get ur point. Guess we'll see how they and others are doing after the changes. Worrying about balance in this game is to exhausting for how much I play it these days lol so I'm kinda impartial to anything these days, least the balance patch will be a change up, doesn't really matter to me what kind.

To be fair; I don't even read the balance notes. They don't really matter to me. I may change some traits at times, but only when I feel like it; I don't let nerfs guide my playstyle or class, I just play what I enjoy and what I'm good at. They could nerf a holo, but nerf or not; I'll lose against that certain holo if he/she has more skill with the class than I do with the class I'm playing at that time.

Again, I'm not saying nerfs are always unnecessary, but I just try to ignore thoughts like ''that build/class is OP'' because it will get in my head. I don't want to have the thought of ''omg, I'm going to lose this match, or this 1vs1 at close, because they have a holo''. When I lose a 1vs1 I often give the other party a compliment for playing their class quite well. Thank them for the nice duel. For me that's just more rewarding than to run to the forums every time I lose a 1vs1....to make posts about nerfs (not saying you do! - just in general). I just accept my own failure and accept I have more to learn. Or that I just didn't play the right counters. I do think PVP would be more enjoyable for a lot more people if more users would think that way. It's not a perfect way, but better than to focus on nerfs that much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lighter.5631

Lighter.5631

Posted
Posted

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

Some you call out here, but there would have to be
massive
reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

nono, problem is mirage having too much evade uptime but it's attack are coming for all angles and also ranged, both thief/weaver are melee range attacks, Deadeye's dodge is super limited, also you are able to dodge while CC'ed, these are the biggest problem for mirage, you can't just bring something up and say other classes have more without properly comparing other part of the class.

OT:weaver's problem, imo it's the stab uptime and stunbreak uptime. they can easily cover it's weak point(fire/lightning)with high stab and stunbreak uptime and easily switch to water/earth for evade.

FB is simply overtuned, starting from animation graphic

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Azure The Heartless.3261

Azure The Heartless.3261

Posted
Posted

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

  1. Exactly what you just said. Some things are REALLY strong when played by more experienced players, but are too complex for less experienced players to use viably at all. Which brings in the idea of Skill Floor and Skill Ceiling. Which in turn creates the argument of: "Should balance be based on top tier performance or the bell curve majority performance?" I've seen people argue about this to no end, vouching for one side or the other. But the truth is.. it should be based on both. This would incorporate much mechanical overhaul, and not necessarily changes to attribute tied statistics at all.
  2. Then you have things that take the idea of "Rock/Paper/Scissor" way too far. Look at Deadeye as example. It's seriously completely useless against certain builds, but then is way too strong against others. So it is "hit or miss" both literally and figuratively. You're either dominating on it while in a good match vs. many things you counter, or you're getting countered so hard you can't breath. This serves only to create a split in its identity concerning "Is it too strong?" You can't really narrowly label it with a single Yes or No, because it is in fact way too strong vs. certain things, but is just useless against others. What makes classes like this mostly busted, is that they are very abusable for class swapping. lower tiered players who play that Deadeye for 10 matches in a row, who never log off it, aren't the ones who are making it look OP. The ones who make it look OP, and the strong players who only log on the Deadeye, when they are swapping to it, to counter an enemy team comp that is setup to be prone to the Deadeye. All of which in turn creates these weird differing opinions within various player feedback about the Deadeye. We're hearing from some players who say: "It sucks. it's useless." While other players are saying: "It's way too strong." Then they begin to argue with each other as to prove which opinion is correct. But the truth is... both opinions are correct. So what is Arenanet supposed to do?

I just want to chime in on this point in particular. I would like to note that things can be hard to pick up, but as long as playing them at their highest level of play allowed by the game does not make them effectively immortal (no class is entitled to -mechanical- effective immortality as long as their player is good), that is fine. underused specs and builds create their own pockets of viability merely on inexperience with fighting them, As long as you can see things coming and have adequate room to respond to or interrupt key skills, Things can be easier or harder to pick up, with user skill. which brings me to this:

  1. Flatten out mechanics of every class concerning Skill Floor/Skill Ceiling. Every class should be relatively equal in Skill Floor/Skill Ceiling. This would IMMEDIATELY make the game much easier to balance, when we're talking about flip flopping attribute tied statistics. But it's got to begin and end with the sheer difficulty of how easy or difficult it is to run a class/build. Worrying about balancing attribute tied statistics needs to come after that.

I'm not absolutely sure you -need- to do this, given above. Or rather, perhaps I have a different consideration of what skill floor and skill ceiling entails. I think its fine for classes to be easier or harder to play. However, I think every class, in its core, should be designed in such a way that it allows players to even fight against what they are disadvantaged against, without it being a complete and utter shutdown or domination due largely to mechanical difference. Player skill, and its presence or lack thereof, ideally, should be the major determining factors for wipe matchups. If that is what you are talking about, even though you mentioned how hard or easy it is to run a class, then I agree. I am of the mindset that a good way of doing this, in addition to making it so that classes with disadvantages against certain playstyles have a couple tools (but not an overabundance) to counter or manage those playstyles, is to clear up class damage delivery and telegraphs so they are more pronounced.

  1. Seriously, remove at least half of the pixel spam that is in the game, or at least greatly individualize the graphic displays of different animations. What do I mean by this? Ok, a Spellbreaker feels good to play against because you can see what the #$%^ he's doing.

Which is why I agree with this 100%. Making moves that do things like grant invulnerability, stability, hard CC or large damage have standard, visible effects would probably go a large way toward helping the game balance. Especially since there are a handful of players that exploit visibility (Read: choose asura classes for their small stature alone) to hide their animations vs people that don't use standard opponent models.

Hell, It may be incredibly beneficial to just color code some of the critical boons like Stab, Quickness and the like in something -other- than yellow, and make them bigger on the UI bar for your opponents health.

All in all, thoughtful post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share
Go to topic listing
GuildWars2.com
ArenaNet

©2020 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. All trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

ESRB - Teen
×
×
  • Create New...