Preview Balance patch -Thief

[Tayga.3192]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Im not sure about that. Looks like were heading straight into a condi meta, and Thief is pretty awful at handling Condis (and the acrobatic hits dont help). For that matter, thief relied on quick burst which is going to be a whole lot less effective now. Deadeye is gonna be a whole lot better now, since its best skill (Unkneeled Rifle 2) is completely unnerfed.

We can't really know what meta we will go into.

Even if condi meta becomes a thing, thief is relatively okay at condi cleanses. It's actually way better than non-inspiration mesmers (cleanse mantra is nerfed in this patch) and non-mallyx revenants. After Shake It Off nerfs warriors will have a harder time dealing with condis as well, healing signet nerf doesn't help either. In a way, even currently meta holosmith build is worse at dealing with conditions because they don't have much evades except vigor, which is nerfed.

Also, we should not forget that thief counters necromancer and mesmer, which are the primary condi classes (even though condi mirage is hit greatly and chrono is nearly unplayable, they have yet to kill core).

ps: if condi becomes a thing, thieves can go daredevil and take "that" trait. because thief always changes depending on meta.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Im not sure about that. Looks like were heading straight into a condi meta, and Thief is pretty awful at handling Condis (and the acrobatic hits dont help). For that matter, thief relied on quick burst which is going to be a whole lot less effective now. Deadeye is gonna be a whole lot better now, since its best skill (Unkneeled Rifle 2) is completely unnerfed.

We can't really know what meta we will go into.

Even if condi meta becomes a thing, thief is relatively okay at condi cleanses. It's actually way better than non-inspiration mesmers (cleanse mantra is nerfed in this patch) and non-mallyx revenants. After Shake It Off nerfs warriors will have a harder time dealing with condis as well, healing signet nerf doesn't help either. In a way, even currently meta holosmith build is worse at dealing with conditions because they don't have much evades except vigor, which is nerfed.

Also, we should not forget that thief counters necromancer and mesmer, which are the primary condi classes (even though condi mirage is hit greatly and chrono is nearly unplayable, they have yet to kill core).

ps: if condi becomes a thing, thieves can go daredevil and take "that" trait. because thief always changes depending on meta.

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Im not sure about that. Looks like were heading straight into a condi meta, and Thief is pretty awful at handling Condis (and the acrobatic hits dont help). For that matter, thief relied on quick burst which is going to be a whole lot less effective now. Deadeye is gonna be a whole lot better now, since its best skill (Unkneeled Rifle 2) is completely unnerfed.

We can't really know what meta we will go into.

Even if condi meta becomes a thing, thief is relatively okay at condi cleanses. It's actually way better than non-inspiration mesmers (cleanse mantra is nerfed in this patch) and non-mallyx revenants. After Shake It Off nerfs warriors will have a harder time dealing with condis as well, healing signet nerf doesn't help either. In a way, even currently meta holosmith build is worse at dealing with conditions because they don't have much evades except vigor, which is nerfed.

Also, we should not forget that thief counters necromancer and mesmer, which are the primary condi classes (even though condi mirage is hit greatly and chrono is nearly unplayable, they have yet to kill core).

ps: if condi becomes a thing, thieves can go daredevil and take "that" trait. because thief always changes depending on meta.

I mean not for sure, but Power damage took huge hits accross the board, while Condi didnt seem to take any hits? They even nerfed condi cleanses. A condi meta is inevitable. And nah, Thief is pretty bad at it, you got 2 utility skills for it (one of which is your often only Stunbreak), and outside of that is pretty limited.

Thief used to counter them due to its ability to spike (well and in case of Mesmer because of Ecto). But if the condi build is a lot stronger than any other build (say, early scourge), then it eats thieves for breakfast.

"That" trait (why are we doing this) is pretty bad against condi burst, as you can only clear one and still die anyway.

[Tayga.3192]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:I mean not for sure, but Power damage took huge hits accross the board, while Condi didnt seem to take any hits? They even nerfed condi cleanses. A condi meta is inevitable.They removed expertise amulets (wanderer, viper, deadshot) and nerfed runes. They also nerfed 10 bleed trait from mirage. However, as I said before, we can't know what kind of meta we will go into.

And nah, Thief is pretty bad at it, you got 2 utility skills for it (one of which is your often only Stunbreak), and outside of that is pretty limited.Withdraw will probably see play (even though it was nerfed in cooldown, so did torment) and for thieves who get hit more by conditions (the ones without stealth) Signet of Agility is a nice choice. Sword 2 is "usable" and Shadowstep is still there.

Thief used to counter them due to its ability to spike (well and in case of Mesmer because of Ecto). But if the condi build is a lot stronger than any other build (say, early scourge), then it eats thieves for breakfast.It's more than just spike. Mesmer and Necromancer lack chase power and long cc (magic bullet is great against thieves). They also can't kill thieves in 2 skills like warrior or kite like revenant/ranger since mesmer uses blink and necro uses wurm to teleport to a port-enabled zone.

"That" trait (why are we doing this) is pretty bad against condi burst, as you can only clear one and still die anyway.I forgot it was called Escapist's Fortitude.

[babazhook.6805]

300 seconds cooldowns on Hard to Catch and Instant reflexes makes them absolutely pointless. There no reason whatsoever to select a trait that only works once every 5 minutes. Having two traits at 300 seconds in a single traitline really shuts down choices in Acro.

As to the INI increases as I stated from the get go. When you lower damage on thief skills UNLIKE all other classes , the thief relies more on INI in order to output damage. When you lower damage AND increase INI there a double whammy which hits a lot harder than increased cooldowns simply because the INI pool used for all skills. While we have to wait until this implemented to get a true measure of the impact, It my feeling INI increases coupled with lower damage simply forces the thief into using INI to spam singular skills. I just can not see myself using skills costing INI that are not damage related as it means not enough damage out.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

The patch is more or less what I expected tbh. Our sustain is largely active so that wasn't going to get changed much, so we were gonna get hit on base damage and might access across the board. Just remember that these are only 1/9th of the changes across all the classes; if they do what they say and make other classes' healing more dependant on their damage output, not just straight up full heals like we have now, the damage we do will be lower but its also more likely to stick. Remember these changes aren't happening in a vacuum, basically.

That said, the increases to ini and the cooldowns on instant reflexes hurt, they'd probably be better off reworking the trait entirely since an auto proc evade was always hard to balance and a bit cheese frankly. PI also, they'd be better off reworking that trait entirely now as others have said. Again though, that's looking at damage numbers as they stand today; PI might be fine in the new meta.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Im not sure about that. Looks like were heading straight into a condi meta, and Thief is pretty awful at handling Condis (and the acrobatic hits dont help). For that matter, thief relied on quick burst which is going to be a whole lot less effective now. Deadeye is gonna be a whole lot better now, since its best skill (Unkneeled Rifle 2) is completely unnerfed.

We can't really know what meta we will go into.

Even if condi meta becomes a thing, thief is relatively okay at condi cleanses. It's actually way better than non-inspiration mesmers (cleanse mantra is nerfed in this patch) and non-mallyx revenants. After Shake It Off nerfs warriors will have a harder time dealing with condis as well, healing signet nerf doesn't help either. In a way, even currently meta holosmith build is worse at dealing with conditions because they don't have much evades except vigor, which is nerfed.

Also, we should not forget that thief counters necromancer and mesmer, which are the primary condi classes (even though condi mirage is hit greatly and chrono is nearly unplayable, they have yet to kill core).

ps: if condi becomes a thing, thieves can go daredevil and take "that" trait. because thief always changes depending on meta.

@Tayga.3192 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Im not sure about that. Looks like were heading straight into a condi meta, and Thief is pretty awful at handling Condis (and the acrobatic hits dont help). For that matter, thief relied on quick burst which is going to be a whole lot less effective now. Deadeye is gonna be a whole lot better now, since its best skill (Unkneeled Rifle 2) is completely unnerfed.

We can't really know what meta we will go into.

Even if condi meta becomes a thing, thief is relatively okay at condi cleanses. It's actually way better than non-inspiration mesmers (cleanse mantra is nerfed in this patch) and non-mallyx revenants. After Shake It Off nerfs warriors will have a harder time dealing with condis as well, healing signet nerf doesn't help either. In a way, even currently meta holosmith build is worse at dealing with conditions because they don't have much evades except vigor, which is nerfed.

Also, we should not forget that thief counters necromancer and mesmer, which are the primary condi classes (even though condi mirage is hit greatly and chrono is nearly unplayable, they have yet to kill core).

ps: if condi becomes a thing, thieves can go daredevil and take "that" trait. because thief always changes depending on meta.

I mean not for sure, but Power damage took huge hits accross the board, while Condi didnt seem to take any hits? They even nerfed condi cleanses. A condi meta is inevitable. And nah, Thief is pretty bad at it, you got 2 utility skills for it (one of which is your often only Stunbreak), and outside of that is pretty limited.

Thief used to counter them due to its ability to spike (well and in case of Mesmer because of Ecto). But if the condi build is a lot stronger than any other build (say, early scourge), then it eats thieves for breakfast.

"That" trait (why are we doing this) is pretty bad against condi burst, as you can only clear one and still die anyway.

I can stalemate most condi classes on my condi DE at the moment, I'm only using shadowstep, hide in shadows (both traited) and a cleansing sigil on rifle for main cleanses. If you're careful to use stealth and smoke screen to avoid getting hit unnecessarily, while using death's retreat on rifle and roll for ini to keep mobility impairing conditions and vuln/weakness from wasting your main cleanses, that's usually enough. The main ones that get me are the rare core condi necro that knows when to land transfers, and condi druids that also invest in healing, most other things are fine. That said a lot is changing, I know I'm gonna have to rebuild everything from scratch after the patc and I'm looking forward to it haha

[UNOwen.7132]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:I mean not for sure, but Power damage took huge hits accross the board, while Condi didnt seem to take any hits? They even nerfed condi cleanses. A condi meta is inevitable.They removed expertise amulets (wanderer, viper, deadshot) and nerfed runes. They also nerfed 10 bleed trait from mirage. However, as I said before, we can't know what kind of meta we will go into.

And nah, Thief is pretty bad at it, you got 2 utility skills for it (one of which is your often only Stunbreak), and outside of that is pretty limited.Withdraw will probably see play (even though it was nerfed in cooldown, so did torment) and for thieves who get hit more by conditions (the ones without stealth) Signet of Agility is a nice choice. Sword 2 is "usable" and Shadowstep is still there.

Thief used to counter them due to its ability to spike (well and in case of Mesmer because of Ecto). But if the condi build is a lot stronger than any other build (say, early scourge), then it eats thieves for breakfast.It's more than just spike. Mesmer and Necromancer lack chase power and long cc (magic bullet is great against thieves). They also can't kill thieves in 2 skills like warrior or kite like revenant/ranger since mesmer uses blink and necro uses wurm to teleport to a port-enabled zone.

"That" trait (why are we doing this) is pretty bad against condi burst, as you can only clear one and still die anyway.I forgot it was called Escapist's Fortitude.

Withdraw only cleanses Torment, which I dont think is a very common damage condition. The nerfed amulets and runes are a start, but keep in mind, power damage got literally halved (or more), while condi damage was unhit. And Expertise is for condi duration, but the big issue with condi now is its bursting ability.

You dont chase a Thief anyway. If they want to run away, they will run away. But that doesnt help them kill you. It just means that you might have difficulty killing them (except with Condi, you probably dont). You also can very much so kill thieves quickly thanks to condibombs.

[Tayga.3192]

@UNOwen.7132 said:Withdraw only cleanses Torment, which I dont think is a very common damage condition.Revenant and necromancer uses it. Illusions mesmer (with or without axe) uses it. Only condi weaver and scourge (alongside torment) uses burning, which got nerfed pretty heavily, and balthazar runes are also nerfed.

while condi damage was unhit.This is simply wrong.

And Expertise is for condi duration, but the big issue with condi now is its bursting ability.It helps burst as well as sustained damage, especially on mirage.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

@saerni.2584 said:AoE 1s daze is pretty good for 6 initiative. Less need to spam the field and hope you get the stacks of poison to land a daze.

1 TIME 1 s daze that pulses poison for 6 iniative. its a nerf and makes the skill not worth the 6 init cost. id rather make the skill prenerf where it was just not damaging AT ALL and only applied poison like it used to...then thats where someone comes in and quotes me on how it was cancer for stealth users...rebutle = have you not seen how much anti stealth there is in wvw?!?!?

[SehferViega.8725]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:PI also, they'd be better off reworking that trait entirely now as others have said. Again though, that's looking at damage numbers as they stand today; PI might be fine in the new meta.

I use to play D/P Daredevil: with my 3114 Power, PI hits for 600-1950 based on enemy toughness (something that is pretty fair). Reduce the power coefficient by 266% will completly kill this trait: interrupt an enemy means spend initiative or use Swipe and require skills and timing.. I can't really understand this change.

Also kill Acrobatis trait line seems something that has really no sense. How thief will be supposed to face multiple enemies? Only with stealth?

Based on these changes, best build will be Trickery+Shadow Arts + Deadeye.. Now 1 malicous Backstab can hit 13k without Assassin's Signet, with 33% damage reduction it still will be a good way to kill enemies. And a Permastealth DE will be quite impossible to be killed, with all these damage reductions + (Flickering Shadows).

So sad.. I like to play something that requires skills, if you make a mistake, you should pay for it.. we are going in the opposite direction.

[babazhook.6805]

The way I forsee this rolling out is that the traits or builds that grant more INI will be even more important. One is going to have to maximize their INI and with less damage overall the best way to do that is to focus on damage skills. The difference between using one skill 3 times before running out of INI and a skill 2 times is huge.

Using The skills that provide CC or some other type of utility will be counterproductive as there no sense stunning or immobilizing someone as example if it only means you no longer have the INI left for a followup damaging attack.

As such Trickery DE and to a lesser extent SA will all be desirable. The number of different skills or utilities used in a given build is going to drop. There will be more complaints that all Thief does is "press one button"

[Stand The Wall.6987]

pistol pierce is finally back but heart seeker not getting nerfed like everything else doesn't make any sense.

[Cobrakon.3108]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Backstab and Dancing Dagger both face major nerfs and DB's initiative costs go up without any reworks.Gotta make sure there's absolutely no chance at all power D/D is even remotely playable lmao.

It's been dead for quite some time. I guess they saw its dead corpse and decided to stab it a few times to be sure.

[Dzheen.5291]

They nerfed Unload, but leave Repeater as it is. Unload will hit same or less then Repeater, cost 6 ini vs 2ini, and has a longer cast (1.5 vs 1.25). So now 1 weapon will be better than 2? Can we have Repeater on p/p set instead of Unload?

[Carnifex.3275]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Dave.6819" said:snip

They nerfed everything, mostly a lot more than those.

I love how you just read your main and go "is this for real?", if anything thief seems better now that any cc hits for 20 damage.

I'll be honest i read abit about other classes and saw every1 is getting nerfed but i didn't concentrate on actual numbers and percentages. So idk.. i'm just concerned that Thief dmg is quite low already on some weapons and it will go lower even more and ini costs will go up. So... yea.

[Ysmir.4986]

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

@saerni.2584 said:AoE 1s daze is pretty good for 6 initiative. Less need to spam the field and hope you get the stacks of poison to land a daze.

1 TIME 1 s daze that pulses poison for 6 iniative. its a nerf and makes the skill not worth the 6 init cost. id rather make the skill prenerf where it was just not damaging AT ALL and only applied poison like it used to...then thats where someone comes in and quotes me on how it was cancer for stealth users...rebutle = have you not seen how much anti stealth there is in wvw?!?!?

For pvp, that change is clearly a buff, for the reasons already mentioned

[kokonut.7683]

@SehferViega.8725 said:Funny thing: Impairing Daggers will hit harder then Backstab..

If you can land it, yes.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Withdraw only cleanses Torment, which I dont think is a very common damage condition.Revenant and necromancer uses it. Illusions mesmer (with or without axe) uses it. Only condi weaver and scourge (alongside torment) uses burning, which got nerfed pretty heavily, and balthazar runes are also nerfed.

while condi damage was unhit.This is simply wrong.

And Expertise is for condi duration, but the big issue with condi now is its bursting ability.It helps burst as well as sustained damage, especially on mirage.

Oh rev does use it, I suppose. But the others rely on the other conditions a lot more, Torment is mostly just a cover condition.

Condis do the exact same damage they do now. The most that got changed is that some applications lost stacks in exchange for duration, but importantly, A, most didnt, and B, even the ones that did lost less than half their stacks, and gained extra duration. The damage has not decreased.

Expertise doesnt help burst at all. Since yknow, duration is not relevant for burst.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Withdraw only cleanses Torment, which I dont think is a very common damage condition.Revenant and necromancer uses it. Illusions mesmer (with or without axe) uses it. Only condi weaver and scourge (alongside torment) uses burning, which got nerfed pretty heavily, and balthazar runes are also nerfed.

while condi damage was unhit.This is simply wrong.

And Expertise is for condi duration, but the big issue with condi now is its bursting ability.It helps burst as well as sustained damage, especially on mirage.

Oh rev does use it, I suppose. But the others rely on the other conditions a lot more, Torment is mostly just a cover condition.

Condis do the exact same damage they do now. The most that got changed is that some applications lost stacks in exchange for duration, but importantly, A, most didnt, and B, even the ones that did lost less than half their stacks, and gained extra duration. The damage has not decreased.

Expertise doesnt help burst at all. Since yknow, duration is not relevant for burst.

[kash.9213]

@"babazhook.6805" said:The way I forsee this rolling out is that the traits or builds that grant more INI will be even more important. One is going to have to maximize their INI and with less damage overall the best way to do that is to focus on damage skills. The difference between using one skill 3 times before running out of INI and a skill 2 times is huge.

Using The skills that provide CC or some other type of utility will be counterproductive as there no sense stunning or immobilizing someone as example if it only means you no longer have the INI left for a followup damaging attack.

As such Trickery DE and to a lesser extent SA will all be desirable. The number of different skills or utilities used in a given build is going to drop. There will be more complaints that all Thief does is "press one button"

I like Trickery and SA with DE and DrD in WvW at least, probably sucks anywhere else, and I also build to float around to cover people in different type of fights. After awhile you get your timing down on everything and are comfortable using fewer sources of stealth which opens up some choices, but that's right now. I already have to put some thought into those stats and modifier thresholds to have the hitting power and be able to bounce when I need to but I also have to pack for control and sapping in this mode, and I probably will post patch as well as health is just filling when mitigation is ripped or they're probably not hitting me very hard either.

I can see people packing their kit with more burst and multi use Initiative/burst; break stun; etc utility instead though for a more reliable pace and I'm not sure after those changes if I'd stick with traits like Merciful Ambush, Burst of Agility, or Premeditation if those don't scale or shape into the changes somehow and I might even have to think about Shadows Rejuv if Rending Shade isn't still the opportunity maker but we'll have to get our hands on that patch to feel all that out. I'm sure at launch some predictions will be off and some spot on and people will dig into new mechanics and figure new stuff out but there might be a few stealth missiles out there for a minute although they'd have to stay engaged to keep their kill rate up if their not likely to quick burst or oneshot either.

I get rocked by some core thieves of various kits now and probably still will after but those builds might get more funneled.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

So my WvW troll build has mixed reactions to this. Longer immob (I was close to perma immob before so this may push me to that perma status), however less poison duration in DA and 1s less stealth for elite. I can push my duration to make up for the difference ,however now I need to buy better food lol

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@babazhook.6805 said:The way I forsee this rolling out is that the traits or builds that grant more INI will be even more important. One is going to have to maximize their INI and with less damage overall the best way to do that is to focus on damage skills. The difference between using one skill 3 times before running out of INI and a skill 2 times is huge.

In WvW, solo roaming build will be less effective, that still won't stop the stealth build from controlling the fights. They are also reducing the value of staying in stealth, so even though SA didn't get hit, there's no value in stacking stealth anymore.

In PvP, the way I see it, they are trying to eliminate 1v1 situations since with the nerfed damage overall, teams will have to work like a team (imagine that). It would be interesting to see how builds will develop since they didn't only nerfed the skills and traits in PvP, but they also removed a lot of amulets.

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

• The following amulets have been removed from the PvP Build panel
  • Deadshot Amulet
  • Viper Amulet
  • Wanderer Amulet
  • Diviner Amulet
  • Harrier Amulet
  • Seeker Amulet

EDIT: So it would seems that builds will focus more on spiking damage than prolonged damage. Meaning maximizing the damage output of cheap INIT skills.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Dave.6819" said:Really? Well i haven't read other classes and how hard they are planned to get nerfed but i hope they get nerfed alot more. Cuz with that kind of damage we won't be able to kill anythin. Well even now Dagger MH AA just tickles people so...

If you haven't read the other classes, then why are you already complaining about the "nerfs to thief"? We had information about this patch bringing down all dmg and sustain numbers long before the patchnotes. And then you'll try to say that you're always looking how thief compares to other classes... It's almost like what I wrote in the other thread about ~"nothing matters, just don't nerf MY class" was correct.

[Sobx.1758]

@"babazhook.6805" said:300 seconds cooldowns on Hard to Catch and Instant reflexes makes them absolutely pointless. There no reason whatsoever to select a trait that only works once every 5 minutes. Having two traits at 300 seconds in a single traitline really shuts down choices in Acro.

I think it's pretty hard to judge without actually getting a feel of it ingame, it seems they've hit those automated traits moooore-ooor-leeeess proportionally to the damage nerfs, but yeah, picking a trait with 5 minute cooldown will feel terrible. More of a single-use "get out of jail" card at this point.

As to the INI increases as I stated from the get go. When you lower damage on thief skills UNLIKE all other classes , the thief relies more on INI in order to output damage. When you lower damage AND increase INI there a double whammy which hits a lot harder than increased cooldowns simply because the INI pool used for all skills. While we have to wait until this implemented to get a true measure of the impact, It my feeling INI increases coupled with lower damage simply forces the thief into using INI to spam singular skills. I just can not see myself using skills costing INI that are not damage related as it means not enough damage out.

And yeah, taking half of the resources on a single use of a skill with something like ini mechanic also seems like it might be an overkill, BUT they also nerfed the regular weapon skill cds (not all of them) of other classes, so... eh, who really knows, the pvp/wvw will play differently than it does now, so it's hard to be sure about the outcome of this patch.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@SehferViega.8725 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:PI also, they'd be better off reworking that trait entirely now as others have said.

Again though, that's looking at damage numbers as they stand today; PI might be fine in the new meta

.

I use to play D/P Daredevil: with my 3114 Power, PI hits for 600-1950 based on enemy toughness (something that is pretty fair). Reduce the power coefficient by 266% will completly kill this trait: interrupt an enemy means spend initiative or use Swipe and require skills and timing.. I can't really understand this change.

Also kill Acrobatis trait line seems something that has really no sense. How thief will be supposed to face multiple enemies? Only with stealth?

Based on these changes, best build will be Trickery+Shadow Arts + Deadeye.. Now 1 malicous Backstab can hit 13k without Assassin's Signet, with 33% damage reduction it still will be a good way to kill enemies. And a Permastealth DE will be quite impossible to be killed, with all these damage reductions + (Flickering Shadows).

So sad.. I like to play something that requires skills, if you make a mistake, you should pay for it.. we are going in the opposite direction.

Yeah, I hear you. The main reason I say this is that if healing is hit significantly, even a small amount of damage on an interrupt would be good as it's chip damage. I do agree it's probably better reworking the trait altogether than going ahead with the proposed change.

As for a trickery, shadow arts and deadeye spec, I already play this for a boonsteal focused S/D rifle playstyle in WvW. It doesn't hit huge numbers in comparison to some current specs but reliably removing protection often makes up for that, so it would be an odd choice for D/P but it would work. I agree it's a safer spec than others, but honestly I don't consider instagibbing an opponent particularly skilled either, so I guess we'll see what happens on that one.