GW2 - Constructive Criticism/Feedback

[ThreeLeggedWolf.1426]

Hey all, this will be my first post on this forum and I do this in order to get an actual answer, whether it's just me or it is an actual thing.I played GW2 from launch and came back every now and then when I took a break from GW2. I also played GW1 which to me was arguabmy the very best MMO I ever played to this day, mainly because it didn't feel as an MMO...

Regardless, Last time I came back to GW2 I made my way through the story line and went on to start HoT (prologue I think), "rally at maguuma" or some such... didn't play the living seasons that came before it. To me something was very wrong... first off the characters such as that hello kitty Charr, the miniature kawaii asura, the fashion-aware Norn etc... but worst of all were the dialogues. they were cringy and downright retarded imho, further on I stumbled on the crashed zeppelin and it all felt like some arcade platformer game, which allready put me off even if I did enjoy jumping puzzles from the vanilla game. The whole way you had those two misses commenting about the many deaths around us in the same way Miss France and Miss Universe would act, I expected them to faint over the intese emotions ..... -_-' ... then finally after some very game-like features I found the evil assassin and that fight felt so surreal... I was about as immersed as If I'd had to fight crash bandicoot... no longer was this game the epic RPG I had loved for a decade (including GW1).

Lots of people tend to say GW story writing isn't that good to begin with, and I see their point but I did very much enjoy the the main story arc despite it's shortcomings. But I see no mention of anyone having felt what I experienced... no transition in style at all between the base game and this new "Kawaii cute kitty flower power" style felt like a suckerpunch in the b*lls... I left on the spot not to return a few months back... Today nostalgia made me look some more into this until I ended up here.

Please do not hate me for saying these things if they offend... I simply would like to hear from others what they think on the subject.

PS: I am not much for JRPG's in general and personally dislike FF online, it's simply not my cup of tea.

[Randulf.7614]

The transition you speak of (although completely wrong analogy of "kawaii flower power/hello kitty - it isn't even remotely like that in any way whatsoever) is caused by a few things

• The Personal Story whilst generally well received at the time didn't fit the style of writing they moving into (ie episodic).
• A new squad was felt to be needed that we "grew with" to combat the Dragons and other dangers. Basically a guild representing all races
• If you didn't play LS1, whilst the story and transition was minimalistic at best, it was still important to introduce the characters. Without LS1, LS2 is a jarring experience because there is literally nothing to bridge the gap between styles and story
• Players were asked to feed back how to improve on the storytelling after the disaster of LS1. LS2 was the prototype for that and a lot of player feedback shaped that style of storytelling. That has steadily evolved to where we are now.
• The writing team has changed over time. New blood want to do new things. Tell stories in different ways. And at times, not always care for the source material the Universe is built on.

One of the big problems for me and others is that the arbitrary release cadence and episodic formula has put pressure on the writers just to whizz through things and not explore the story and lore. They rely too much on retcons, unreliable narrator and show an inability at times to really write compelling villains over a long term arc. GW1 was never "good writing". Propehcies and especially Factions aren't brilliant examples of writing. But no one really minded because the whole fitted together. When you split things into episodes, the flaws become more apparent because you only have that bitesized chunk in front of you and the wait for a pay off is far too long.

Another issue (and this is not universally agreed on, but a personal bugbear of my own) is the focus away from this being our story and being put onto others. Especially Aurene. For me, Aurene has engulfed the narrative and the writing has focused on being her story - and the devs have admitted this in interviews.

None of these are concrete reasons for any subjective view on the story, but are credited by various people as issues plagueing it.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

If you skipped Living World Season 2, and went directly to Heart of Thorns after the Core Personal Story, you would have missed quite a bit of set-up for that story.

Good luck on whatever game you play next.

[Danikat.8537]

If you don't like the character design, map design, combat, writing, dialogue or story and presumably you're not interested in PvP or World vs World it sounds like this is not the game for you and you made the right decision by leaving. I hope you enjoy whatever you play next more. :)

I don't know what else to suggest, since most of your objections don't even make sense to me. I assume "kwaii asura" is refering to the fact that Taimi is a teenager (and therefore smaller than an adult asura) but I'm not sure why that's a problem, although I've never really gotten into anime fandom so I may be missing some implication here). I think I'm having the same problem with the rest of the post. I get that you're using a lot of pop-culture references but I have no idea what they're supposed to mean in this context.

All I can say is I think it's understandable that if you skipped all of Season 2, which builds up to HoT, (and the video which is supposed to fill in for season 1) then the transition to HoT will be quite jarring, because you've missed the entire set-up and explaination for what's happening and why. That is an issue with the game, I don't know why they don't include Season 2 with HoT (and Season 3 with PoF), but since you don't seem to like GW2 at all I doubt telling you to buy and play more of it is a viable solution.

[Xenash.1245]

Personally I just wish the writers would just reflect on how the story has come and been established so far by playing through it entirely themselves through the lenses of the various races, and reflecting on how the community also in turn grew to like certain aspects of the story so far. I say this because it just personally feels like that there's a disconnect when new writers come as it just doesn't feel like they've really reflected on how the story had been established up to that point, it's not even really bad if they want to put their own flare or style on the writing but I just wish it felt more like they were writing for the community since it really doesn't feel like it again in my opinion.

Also hoping Taimi doesn't die and continues helping the awkwardly named pc being the "commander", and I know the character hasn't been that popular with some people. But I again personally really have liked how she's developed so far in comparison to other characters.

[Terra.9506]

I'm not deny some part of story make me feel like I'm playing Sonic the hedgehog XD. Specialize LS2-3. My main problem with GW2 story would be too much walk follow NPC while listen they bumbling about instant of put me into action ASAP. I think It's would better to separate cutscene from game play part completely.

[KeoLegend.5132]

peace out. You skipped a large part of the game and still expected something?Next time you play a game, play the way its meant to be played, specially story-wise. I have my grudges against GW2 storyline, spec because its too rainbows and politically correct (something i personally hate) but it was good enough to keep me engaged. But if i would play GW2 only for the story? Hell the no, GW1 story is miles away better and more mature

[Handsel.2891]

I have the exact opposite opinion: I enjoyed playing the core story but I think it really took off with LW Season 2 and beyond. Season 2 is arguably the best of the Living World series, at least it is for me.But hey, if you don't like the taste, stop eating, it'll only make you sick. It's all good.

@Terra.9506 said:I'm not deny some part of story make me feel like I'm playing Sonic the hedgehog XD. Specialize LS2-3. My main problem with GW2 story would be too much walk follow NPC while listen they bumbling about instant of put me into action ASAP. I think It's would better to separate cutscene from game play part completely.

Weird to read that, remembering some of the criticism regarding the core game's handling of story dialogues.

[Randulf.7614]

@MikeG.6389 said:I have the exact opposite opinion: I enjoyed playing the core story but I think it really took off with LW Season 2 and beyond. Season 2 is arguably the best of the Living World series, at least it is for me.

I do think S2 gets a bad rap. I think a lot of that is down to how it has aged badly compared to the later series in terms of productions - esp with the lack of VA.

But, it held together pretty well as an arc. Yes, there were a lot of loose threads set up which went nowhere and I didn't really enjoy playing as Caithe either, but as a whole, I thought it told the story at the time strongly, fleshing out LS1 more than LS1 itself ever did and setting up HoT perfectly

[Gehenna.3625]

One of my main gripes with GW2 has always been how childish a lot of the stories and the npc's are. It has gotten better over time, but all in all it stands at an odd contrast with what actually happens in the stories with all the death and destruction. It's almost like nobody really takes it seriously. It just doesn't quite fit for me.

[ThreeLeggedWolf.1426]

Thank you for your comments, I did in fact miss out on LS1 and 2 and tried my best to fill the gap by checking videos and do homework on my end before engaging in the expansion that is HoT... I however wish to express an apology if I seemed disrepectful towards the devs work... I might have written the whole thing in a negative state of mind, which isn't built on rage but on nostalgia and bitterness on my end. In fact I believe Arenanet's games have allways been a beacon towards which other MMO's should aspire to... their games have flaws as all games do, but their marketing and bussiness model is purely examplary and most of all (I can't stress this enough) the community of gamers feels outlandishly positive, at least it allways felt that way for me... So ofcourse, feeling no longer in my element in this game, in which I "flourished" as a gamer... is certainly cause for a little heartbreak... I didn't see it coming either and was caught off guard.As for the "Kawai flower power" statement... to clarify I intially felt like playing an RPG with a very unique setting, rough, brutal, beautiful and Epic, then I suddenly fell down a rabbit hole and felt like I shifted into a JRPG similar to Final Fantasy Online (no offense to anyone, but it's just not my thing... I can't go from talking to a big nasty Dragon, to a talking Cactus moments after without my immersion flipping me off). I felt off put by the character designs for one, but I could eventually work past that... but the dialogues between the Npc's felt so incredibly cheesy to me and made me cringe. As for the gameplay I had experienced, which turned out to be more challenging imho, (which is a good thing) lost something in the immersion department, it no longer felt like an epic adventure but like a... game.

So, what I wish to say, is simply that I understand that the team changed overtime, the game had to adapt and evolve as everything else ultimately must, and seeing how much I cared about Guild Wars, I am sorry to realize I can no longer enjoy it. If this post ever felt like a rant, my mistake, because I inteded it to be a farewell letter :).Perhaps I hoped someone would convince me that I was wrong, that the game miraculously turns back around a little further down the road.Good luck to all of you, and good luck to the team.

[Urud.4925]

@"Layken.8927" said:As for the "Kawai flower power" statement... to clarify I intially felt like playing an RPG with a very unique setting, rough, brutal, beautiful and Epic, then I suddenly fell down a rabbit hole and felt like I shifted into a JRPG similar to Final Fantasy Online [...] As for the gameplay I had experienced, which turned out to be more challenging imho, (which is a good thing) lost something in the immersion department, it no longer felt like an epic adventure but like a... game.HoT seems quite rough and brutal to me, especially towards the end. It's definitely not a walk in the park. Sure, also the personal story, with the risen and Orr wasn't roses and flowers. Probably you found it more kawai/childish because the new characters are younger (Taimi/Braham, but also Rox, Marjory and Kasmeer) if compared to the heroes during the personal story (Eir, Caithe, Logan...), so the way they talk is different. If you don't know these new characters is normal to notice the difference.

I have to agree on your statement that the previous story felt more an epic adventure than a game though. (But I liked them both)

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

I partially agree, at least that Rox looks overly cartoony with her oversized eyes, and that the new characters introduced in Season 1 were mostly less believable than the ones from the Personal Story. And the game did a terrible job of introducing them even if you actually played Season 1! But the thing I'm really intrigued about is this:

@Layken.8927 said:I found the evil assassin and that fight felt so surreal... I was about as immersed as If I'd had to fight crash bandicoot...

Which fight is this? Who is the evil assassin?

@Xenash.1245 said:Personally I just wish the writers would just reflect on how the story has come and been established so far by playing through it entirely themselves through the lenses of the various races, and reflecting on how the community also in turn grew to like certain aspects of the story so far. I say this because it just personally feels like that there's a disconnect when new writers come as it just doesn't feel like they've really reflected on how the story had been established up to that point, it's not even really bad if they want to put their own flare or style on the writing but I just wish it felt more like they were writing for the community since it really doesn't feel like it again in my opinion.

It feels like that to me as well, and especially felt like that for Season 1, which feels like it was written by a completely different writing team, one that hadn't actually played the Personal Story and knew barely anything about the game world. But I wonder if that's actually true. Do we know when any large changes in the writing team happened?

[Acheron.4731]

i played this game for six years up until the end of last august (we all know what happened then). Up until that point I had no idea what the story was about. I jumped right into WvW so the story to me was more of a unnecessary annoyance more than a book I wanted to read.Also, when I did play PVE i would just open maps to get to necessary waypoints and eventually I was able to waypoint to squads and commanders in areas (with the teleport to a friend) that I had never even explored. If it helps you can just do what I did and completely ignore the story. I have no idea why I am killing a dragon...but, if it drops loot I am gonna do it.
Otherwise, just bounce around and play what attracts you and you can just skip everything else.

[mercury ranique.2170]

I feel like your immersion is off due to the fact that you skipped too much story. The so called assasin is a well known character from the dungeon storyline. The role was further explored during season 2. Skipping this content is a big gap.

[Zok.4956]

@Layken.8927 said:I intially felt like playing an RPG with a very unique setting, rough, brutal, beautiful and Epic, then I suddenly fell down a rabbit hole and felt like I shifted into a JRPG similar to Final Fantasy Online (no offense to anyone, but it's just not my thing... I can't go from talking to a big nasty Dragon, to a talking Cactus moments after without my immersion flipping me off). I felt off put by the character designs for one, but I could eventually work past that... but the dialogues between the Npc's felt so incredibly cheesy to me and made me cringe.

Around the time when Lions Arch was destroyed, Anet (Mike or Colin, I am not sure) said, they want to achieve the same epicness, suspense, sense of danger, etc. with GW2 as a computer game what Game of Thrones achieved in TV. In the episodes around destroying Lions Arch I think they succeeded with this. I also think they succeded with HoT about that the maps initially created a sense of danger - the Jungle felt very dangerous.

The story that the maps tell without dialogue was in my opinion always a strong point of GW2. However, good character development in the dialogues/story/writing was in my opinion, always a weakness in GW2 and often the dialogues and the character development of the main characters felt more like from a cheap soap opera or from a Disney movie for kids than Game of Thrones. Anet surely has no George R. R. Martin as a writer.

And this game is PEGI 12, so there are some things, that are not possible. I guess that also influences the writing/story a lot.

[Obtena.7952]

I think the main issue is that this MMO makes you the 'hero' ... sure, like the other 100 000's of players have heros. And my ALTS are heros ... OK EVERYONE is a hero ... participation awards all around.

It's simply not believable.

[ThreeLeggedWolf.1426]

@"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said:Which fight is this? Who is the evil assassin?

At the end of the "investigation" cough about murdered rover-nomads, whatever their name is, the ones travelling in zeppelins, you discover who made em crash and murdered them. You get in a fight with the guy, I think you're not even alone in this and that your npc friends actually help you... basically the fight is donkey-kong'esque to me, "avoid the barrel" you had to avoid the AoE circles on the floor... quite typical for an MMO ... but not realy, the AoE's were everywhere and you had to pick up some crap (jetpack maybe?) before it disappears, to be able to jump to boss platform which in turn would be saturated with an insane amount of AoE's... Certainly didn't feel like an epic fight, tedious to be sure though .

@"Obtena.7952" said:I think the main issue is that this MMO makes you the 'hero' ... sure, like the other 100 000's of players have heros. And my ALTS are heros ... OK EVERYONE is a hero ... participation awards all around.

It's simply not believable.That wouldn't be an issue for me per-se, I tend to view it all through a "multiverse" lens, aka. both of my characters don't exist at the same time in the same universe. But I see your point, feeling like nobody can get anything done when you're not around is kinda silly, which MMO's tend to give as a vibe to players... I wish to feel like a hero... sure, but being a hero in a world of incompetents isn't that impressive. The first season of GW2 didn't give me this feeling that much though, the NPC's would sometimes take care of one mission on their own because you took on another and can't do everything... but I don't know about the following seasons.

[Urud.4925]

Oh, you meant Aerin! I also didn't get it. Now I also understand miss France and miss Universe :)Yeah, the first episodes of LW2 weren't very exciting for me either. It gets better towards the end though (but there are also several "cute" moments with Taimi talking with Phlunt, if you don't like the style).

[Svarty.8019]

In terms of story, I watched a WoodenPotatoes primer on GW1 story before playing GW2 and none of it was relevant. Sure, you can see the marks made by the Ascalon bomb thingy and The Brand and the bloodstone thingy. All are references to GW1, but the way they have been made in GW2 is... boring, bland.

What they don't tell you is that instead of playing GW1 to get ready for GW2, you should read the BOOK about Destiny's Edge.... even then they get pushed out of the picture pretty quickly around LS2 iirc because (amongst other reasons) Felicia Day isn't available as a voice actor anymore.... and so the story suffers for real world reasons.

Now we've had these characters for ages and ...

there have been few fatalities.

.

 

When Eir is killed, who knew her? Who was invested in her? Who was sympathetic with her plight? People who read the book, I guess... but she'd done her legend and was ripe to be killed off - or as The Smiths said,

Woe betide those who've served their purpose!

 

I think the emotional beats haven't hit the mark...

When Aurene is killed and brought back to life

... I think that worked very well but then the retcon/deus ex machina - the

awful occurrance

was reversed too quickly - it made a laughing stock of the player, as if they had been "

".

[sasya neko.1985]

one thing ppl keep on forgetting is that you need to buy S2 to enjoy it, if you don't buy S2 then a whole chunk of HoT makes no sense.the problem isn't the player not buying S2, the problem is that S2 should be included with HoT.you're not gonna get lord of the rings without the prologue added with it, S2 is the prologue of HoT.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@sorudo.9054 said:one thing ppl keep on forgetting is that you need to buy S2 to enjoy it, if you don't buy S2 then a whole chunk of HoT makes no sense.the problem isn't the player not buying S2, the problem is that S2 should be included with HoT.you're not gonna get lord of the rings without the prologue added with it, S2 is the prologue of HoT.

You can join another player that has them unlocked to experience the story.

[itspomf.9523]

Don't worry, OP, you aren't alone. I'm still trying to figure out if Scarlet Briar isn't secretly Trahearne in leafy drag.

Having gone on hiatus from the game for the majority of LS1 (talk about whiplash going from the end of "Flame and Frost" to "Escape from LA"!), and then skipping most of LS2 when I grew tired of its nonsense, Heart of Thorns was kind of a trip for me as well. I couldn't connect to anything at all, had no investment in these characters (despite enjoying Roxx's personality, if not her occasionally disturbing appearance, which they actually toned down later on), and Brahm was apparently going through the Norn equivalent of puberty, as far as I could tell for most of it.

Which ... yeah, the Heart of Thorns story was a huge miss for me, and I had to quit on the last mission because I simply could not bring myself to slog through any more of it. In the effort of avoiding spoilers, I won't say anything with regards to the events that unfold, but some of the most formative actions regarding the PC and the rest of the cast just fell flat for me.

I think the biggest problem is that a lot of Heart of Thorn's story feels like it's being guided -- there's very little room for interpretation or allowances for the player to make their own decisions with regards to how the story affects them. To elaborate, the first arc of the Personal Story for my main character involved hunting down a gladium sire who had gone AWOL. While I'd never actively roleplayed this character in the game, I was using the story, as it unfolded, to try and conceive of who this character was and how they would interact with the world and the society they were in -- I mean, it was the first time that the Charr were a people and not just baddies, for me, so I wanted to explore as much of it as I could. So as that arc progressed and I created my own emotional attachments to the people involved and started to sympathize with what they meant to do, I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised by how overwhelming the ending of that short arc was, but all the same, it was emotionally overwhelming for me -- precisely because I was given the opportunity for it it be. Same as with the mentor arc that followed it. In developing this character as more than just a virtual avatar, I'd effectively turned the Personal Story into my own tale within the game, and it had a far greater impact on me than any other content since.

And I think that's what has been missing for a while, now; there's aren't enough points where the player can make the story their own.

Anyway ...

I've slowly worked through LS3 and LS4 with the help of friends, and honestly, I couldn't bring myself to enjoy them much, either. 3 was particularly egregious at times.

It's kind of bizarre that I actually enjoyed Path of Fire's story by comparison to Heart of Thorns, though there's a lot there as to why (and very little has to do with this cast of characters following us around). The Olmakhan are still a favorite from LS4, though, and I'd love to see their society expounded upon a bit more.