Where is the Balance? - Mirage Dodge

[Shadow.1345]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Shadow.1345 said:

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

IA is trash.StG is trash.Mirrors makes mesmer predictable. Desert distortion is dependable on where the clones are and were they're, plus you're trading damage for defense.

Edit: forgot crystal sands, you guessed it, it is trash.

[Gryxis.6950]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.

Yeah using all your utility skill bar in order to survive more than 3s is really great. Also no one uses sand through glass and crystal sands those skills are trash. And mirror created with desert distortion are really not convenient to use and do not make up at all for the loss of a dodge (plus having to waste one traitline on mirage which is a trash traitline especially power wise)

[Shadow.1345]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

IA is trash.StG is trash.Mirrors makes mesmer predictable. Desert distortion is dependable on where the clones are and were they're, plus you're trading damage for defense.

The point isn't how good they are but what more they offer the profession through the elite spec.

[Shadow.1345]

@Gryxis.6950 said:

Yeah using all your utility skill bar in order to survive more than 3s is really great. Also no one uses sand through glass and crystal sands those skills are trash. And mirror created with desert distortion are really not convenient to use and do not make up at all for the loss of a dodge (plus having to waste one traitline on mirage which is a trash traitline especially power wise)

The point isn't how good they are but what more they offer the profession through the elite spec.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

IA is trash.StG is trash.Mirrors makes mesmer predictable. Desert distortion is dependable on where the clones are and were they're, plus you're trading damage for defense.

The point isn't how good they are but what more they offer the profession through the elite spec.

Fair enough. All that mirage traitline offers is trash in the grand scheme of things.

[Gryxis.6950]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Gryxis.6950 said:

Yeah using all your utility skill bar in order to survive more than 3s is really great. Also no one uses sand through glass and crystal sands those skills are trash. And mirror created with desert distortion are really not convenient to use and do not make up at all for the loss of a dodge (plus having to waste one traitline on mirage which is a trash traitline especially power wise)

The point isn't how good they are but what more they offer the profession through the elite spec.

I'm pretty sure the whole point is whether or not what mirage offers is interesting enough to play it now that it has -50 endurance. I clearly took the stance that it's not

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

@"Shadow.1345" said:The point isn't how good they are but what more they offer the profession through the elite spec.

When they tie what "more" they can offer to dodge then make it so the class can only dodge once every 7-10s, you can't say its "more"What you are suggesting is mirage to facetank every damage to use their professional mechanics. Even spellbreaker/necro can't do that.

[Shadow.1345]

@Gryxis.6950 said:

I'm pretty sure the whole point is whether or not what mirage offers is interesting enough to play it now that it has -50 endurance. I clearly took the stance that it's not

Oh your point on that is likely true but it's not the first time some class has not been worth playing. This game even went through a few years of no core class being worth playing. I know that metabattle already removed the CI without CI but I found it still performed fine in unranked 5v5, but metabattle probably is only looking at things from the 2v2 perspective for now.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@DiLlYbOb.8693 said:You do understand how difficult it was to kill a mirage before this patch right, not only can they stack up torment, bleed and confusion with min of 10 stacks each, their dodges also made them impossible to kill and tbh mirage deserves this nerf considering the fact that this op bs has been in the game since pof

You being salty and anet being neglectful does not justify intentionally breaking a class for pvp, which is exactly the intent of this amatuer night move.

[Shadow.1345]

@"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:When they tie what "more" they can offer to dodge then make it so the class can only dodge once every 7-10s, you can't say its "more"What you are suggesting is mirage to facetank every damage to use their professional mechanics. Even spellbreaker/necro can't do that.

I think you missed most of the point because the person I was talking to was comparing the extra evade ability of Soulbreaker and I pointed out as an elite that Mirage gets a lot of extra evade abilities. You just kind of jumped in halfway and cherry picked to make a response.

[KrHome.1920]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.Thank you so much.

Before I read your post, based on the whine of the others I thought anet removed distorsion, mirrors, stealth, leaps and teleports from mirage too and that poor mirages are left with one way to avoid damage.

Srsly... it's ridiculous. All these whine posts should be saved for the next time a competent mirage player shows up and wins games as an example of: you suck a the game, you don't know your class mechanics, you don't know your options.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.Thank you so much.

Before I read your post, based on the whine of the others I thought anet removed distorsion, mirrors, stealth, leaps and teleports from mirage too and that poor mirages are left with one way to avoid damage.

Srsly... it's ridiculous. All these whine posts should be saved for the next time a competent mirage player shows up and wins games as an example of: you suck a the game, you don't know your class mechanics, you don't know your options.

lol, 1v1 me, you mirage me necro. ( mesmer counters necro btw )if you manage to win once out of 10 fights ill give you 200g, how does that sounds?

[SeikeNz.3526]

i don't know why they don't put IH a 10s cd will be way more fair

[Daishi.6027]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.

Many classes can cover their rez and stomps, getting it on an evade is neat and all but if power that implies you have to down them with something that is overall under-tuned in the first place. (only passive condi application is the thing that needed to be fixed, and the entire class shouldn't be punished for the sins of one aspect, of one build.)

Also no one took Illusionary Ambush until portal was nerfed, and it's a massive 35 sec cooldown. Other than that no one would ever slot Sand through glass, and mirrors are the third dodge that has so much counter play, that you can deny it with with an imob or delay it with a cripple, among various other things... Unless you want to force them to blow a 30 second recovery jaunt just to get closer...All of this is significantly inferior to on demand evades, making any class with more easy access far superior.

[Shadow.1345]

@Daishi.6027 said:

Many classes can cover their rez and stomps, getting it on an evade is neat and all but if power that implies you have to down them with something that is overall under-tuned in the first place. (only passive condi application is the thing that needed to be fixed, and the entire class shouldn't be punished for the sins of one aspect, of one build.)

Also no one took Illusionary Ambush until portal was nerfed, and it's a massive 35 sec cooldown. Other than that no one would ever slot Sand through glass, and mirrors are the third dodge that has so much counter play, that you can deny it with with an imob or delay it with a cripple, among various other things... Unless you want to force them to blow a 30 second recovery jaunt just to get closer...All of this is significantly inferior to on demand evades, making any class with more easy access far superior.

You jumped halfway into the conversation and so you missed the part where the person I was responding to was comparing what spellweaver gets as an elite so I responded with stuff the elite offers that was left off their list. It isn't about whether anyone uses it, just that it is offered as part of the elite.Also nobody took Infinite Horizon until Elusive Mind was nerfed. There is always a list of things that nobody used until something changed for mesmer and every other profession. Now maybe it just was the condition damage but maybe once it was nerfed something new would come along. I think Mirage Cloak being so powerful has always been the issue with Mirage.Either way it's all a matter of opinion and most likely I am wrong because I am trash.

[Genesis.5169]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

Many classes can cover their rez and stomps, getting it on an evade is neat and all but if power that implies you have to down them with something that is overall under-tuned in the first place. (only passive condi application is the thing that needed to be fixed, and the entire class shouldn't be punished for the sins of one aspect, of one build.)

Also no one took Illusionary Ambush until portal was nerfed, and it's a massive 35 sec cooldown. Other than that no one would ever slot Sand through glass, and mirrors are the third dodge that has so much counter play, that you can deny it with with an imob or delay it with a cripple, among various other things... Unless you want to force them to blow a 30 second recovery jaunt just to get closer...All of this is significantly inferior to on demand evades, making any class with more easy access far superior.

You jumped halfway into the conversation and so you missed the part where the person I was responding to was comparing what spellweaver gets as an elite so I responded with stuff the elite offers that was left off their list. It isn't about whether anyone uses it, just that it is offered as part of the elite.Also nobody took Infinite Horizon until Elusive Mind was nerfed. There is always a list of things that nobody used until something changed for mesmer and every other profession. Now maybe it just was the condition damage but maybe once it was nerfed something new would come along. I think Mirage Cloak being so powerful has always been the issue with Mirage.Either way it's all a matter of opinion and most likely I am wrong because I am trash.

Nothing new will come for mesmers. Chrono is gone nothing can be done about that. Core is just a useless version of a thief.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

Many classes can cover their rez and stomps, getting it on an evade is neat and all but if power that implies you have to down them with something that is overall under-tuned in the first place. (only passive condi application is the thing that needed to be fixed, and the entire class shouldn't be punished for the sins of one aspect, of one build.)

Also no one took Illusionary Ambush until portal was nerfed, and it's a massive 35 sec cooldown. Other than that no one would ever slot Sand through glass, and mirrors are the third dodge that has so much counter play, that you can deny it with with an imob or delay it with a cripple, among various other things... Unless you want to force them to blow a 30 second recovery jaunt just to get closer...All of this is significantly inferior to on demand evades, making any class with more easy access far superior.

You jumped halfway into the conversation and so you missed the part where the person I was responding to was comparing what spellweaver gets as an elite so I responded with stuff the elite offers that was left off their list. It isn't about whether anyone uses it, just that it is offered as part of the elite.Also nobody took Infinite Horizon until Elusive Mind was nerfed. There is always a list of things that nobody used until something changed for mesmer and every other profession. Now maybe it just was the condition damage but maybe once it was nerfed something new would come along. I think Mirage Cloak being so powerful has always been the issue with Mirage.Either way it's all a matter of opinion and most likely I am wrong because I am trash.

those are utilities they CAN get.I listed what Mirage as a traitline offers, aparently you aint bright so you didnt get it.I can go down the stupid list and do this for SPB so you MIGHT just MIGHT understand how dumb that sounds.SPB gets :225 power225 ferocity10% damage bonusimmob on CCpulsing revelpulsing mightpullreset on F1 skillsextra adrenaline on boon removalboon removal on CCDamage on CCExtra F2 ability that blocks hits, dazes and refreshes F1Dagger F1 that dashes and removes boonsDagger F2 that slowsDagger F3 that stunssuper fast low cooldown aoe boon ripdome that rips boons and makes boon aplication not workAoe taunt that gives adrenalinecondi clear that healssuperspeed and resistancewow such broken!

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:Either way it's all a matter of opinion and most likely I am wrong because I am trash.At least your class and for some parts gameknowledge is uhhm... very not so good. Considering that you don't even see that 1 dodge bar change completely contradicts your goal of making Mirage more skilled and less noobcarry.

Mirage Cloak is a strong mechanic no doubt, it is an instant dodge enables to cast while dodging or to dodge while stunned (not both at same time). No one would deny that this is a strong feature. It is nothing you could put on current Warrror specs without it being broken, just like for the same reasons Warrior specs don't have access to teleports or stealth but it makes somehow sense on a class like Mesmer build around combining instant skills with non instant skills for strong combos and a spec that is per baseline very squishy. And in general in that class context it is not beyond broken as ppl like to make it. Both instant dodge features have massive counterplays 99,9% of all casuals still have missed to learn (because complaining in forum is so much easier). Also Mirage was created with 3 inherent costs limiting and balancing the strong dodge mechanic since PoF release (if you don't know them, search for my trade off thread, i explained that there on detail). Also ppl miss, that giving Mirages more possibilities and ways to use dodges for, they higher opportunity costs and make harder decision making in dodge management and for that adds higher skill ceiling. It also enables the opponent to bait the few dodges Mirage already only had pre patch easy to then hit the big skills. It adds the ability of mind games on both sides in a fight and adds tactical deepness to the spec but also highers the necessary skill lvl you need to have to coutnerplay it. With other words if you are trash you will get farmed (just like from every Mesmer spec since game release). Mesmer was always a class needs more skill to be played but also needs more skill to play against and for that is the most missunderstood and most hated class in the game. It simply needs more iq and skill lvl than most ppl still remaining in this game have.

Ofc the Mirage mechanic only adds skill ceiling and is balanced as long as Mirgae doesn't get more dodges than other classes and can't just spam dodges for days. Nothing of that was possible for Mirage anymore. Mirage got already outdodged by most other classes. The amount of Mirage dodges was absolutely in the equilibrium margin of not being too high but also not overlimited to make all active and skilled uses of the Mirage mechanic impossible. Considering how strong Mirage Cloak is, the amount of dodges was balanced (after several nerfs post PoF release but pre last patch already). The only still overperforming part is the passive condiapplication from clones on normal autoattacks and condi ambushes because since today Anet refused to make a senseful rework to them or at least nerf them directly and give the condi dmg back to the active skills like shatters. This op dmg is also the reason why it is op that a Condimirage can dodge while stunned and only clones still do high dmg from ambushes. It never was a problem on power weapons because there the clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks are not op. Simple.

The biggest balance problems Mesmers create are found in Chaosline and Inspiration (and that since game release). Both lines need a rework and Chaosline is still broken (post patch) while providing completely passive and forgiving facetank sustain and even the few more active traits are insane low skill ceiling. Chaosline is what kept Condimirage in meta (and even brought core Mesmer into meta rofl). Chaosline is what carried Mirage players in the first place, not Mirage.

[Daishi.6027]

@"Shadow.1345" said:You jumped halfway into the conversation and so you missed the part where the person I was responding to was comparing what spellweaver gets as an elite so IApologies I guess?Also nobody took Infinite Horizon until Elusive Mind was nerfed. There is always a list of things that nobody used until something changed for mesmer and every other profession. Now maybe it just was the condition damage but maybe once it was nerfed something new would come along. I think Mirage Cloak being so powerful has always been the issue with Mirage.

I see your point, and ya that may be the case for a lot of classes. This is a bit disingenuous tho, Condi has always been a problem regardless of spec- and regardless of build with it's application and stat distribution. We had the same fights over Condi Chorno, and it still boiled down to the application method.In this instance however, Power Mirage used it since day 1 because of interrupt procs from power block. Condi simply over shadowed it and it's over performance. Which brings me to the main issue and something A-net and a lot of people are not getting: If Condi is the issue, deal with condi- Because Power mirage NEVER over performed, even with bloated survivability traits like old Evasive Mirror, and a full 1s evasion, with blinds on EVERY shatter.

I get the idea of "Just because another class can do X, doesn't mean it's okay for another class to do X, or Y." However, what a class can and cannot do, as well as their limitations is a fair statistical basis to follow if something else is allowed to thrive. There is 0 Reason for why Mirage should dodge less, even prior to the patch, only to come up to par with significant investment to a viable build, (like maybe blowing a utility slot on sand through glass... which is still inferior), when something like thief and ranger exist.

Either way it's all a matter of opinion and most likely I am wrong because I am trash.

I mean if that's the outlook you want to have that's fine. The problem is A-net who either has the same opinion, or at least follows the endless screeching of people with a clear agenda, fueled by group think, and not an ounce of critically valid or cogent arguments based upon factual evidence.

You bringing up the strength of Mirage cloak is the only reasonable thing brought up so far, but frankly I think it's value is being vastly over estimated, and either way is not a sin that should be punished by reduced evades... When it ALREADY evaded less than A LOT of classes.

It's almost like a Thief made this balance patch.

[Lost Elegy.9276]

@Genesis.5169 said:Undo these changes anet everything about our class is punishing to us we lose out on so many things pressing half of our buttons. If we shatter we lose our clones and with that use of IH so every fight we take you as DEV are forcing us TO NOT USE four of our skills pretty much ever unless we have no clones up and we are shattering to daze or get vigor. Our Dodge our offensive and defensive tool giving us one dodge no forces us to pick offense or defense on our dodge and our shatters? No other class fights it self like this. And because of this you've locked our utilities skills since we have only 1 dodge we have to run blink and decoy or signet. NO CLASS HAS IS FORCED TO REDUCE THERE OWN POWER OR SURVIVABILITY TO WORK LIKE THIS ACTIVELY, sure statwise when you pick your amulet and you pick your traitline everyone makes those choices.

BUT YOUR FORCING MESMERS TO MAKE THAT CHOICE NOT ONLY IN CHARACTER BUILDING STATLINES TRAITLINES BUT IN ALL ACTIVE USE OF HALF MY BAR? INCLUDING MY GOD kitten DODGE? EVEN USE OF MY UTILITIES ARE COMPLETELY 100% REACTIVE NOW.

I can't shatter when i want.I can't dodge when i want.I can't use my utilities when i want because i have one dodge and now my utility bar is a kitten version of my endurance bar.I can't even use jaunt as i want because we have terrible condition removal and most of us run Lyssa so jaunt doubles as condition cleanse.

And you wonder why mesmers just end up making 3 clones and just doing nothing its because we can't do anything at all EVEN IF WE WANTED because all of our tools reveal us or you guessed it completely reactive.

Eles can press most there bar without much worry at all.Wars can press most there bar without much worry at all.Rangers can press most there bar without much worry at all.Thieves can press most there bar without much worry at all.Rev can press most there bar without much worry at all.Engineers can press most there bar without much worry at all.Gaurdians can press most there bar without much worry at all.

Mesmers top bar is mostly unusable, left side is mostly unusable because one dodge makes it a reactive bar not a proactive bar, our Elite is half blocked because of one dodge and no condition cleanse and screw you guys with elusive mind no one is gonna run it is trash and you know it fix it, Can't dodge if we want to even just to get some space some extra movement that every class dodge dodge rolling cause its slightly faster then running specially if your safe and to boot were punished for saving our dodge because we have one bar of dodge and not dodging is actively losing dps but in dodging we actively lose defense (please tell me what class has to deal with this?).

People complain about mirage passive gameplay this is why because almost every decision we make has a huge draw back and not like and OH no i just missed this big damage cool down i guess i gotta play defense now, its a oh no ima die now draw back. So you know what mirages do? Nothing. Why? Because have the choices we make draw backs are so huge its not worth it hell were so squishy that using a weapon skill is scary cause u don't wanna reveal where you are because if u do your dead.

Thats my full view of the matter.Ive quit the class all together i'm done with this now its clear to me thats Anet as a company and the gw2 community just does want this class to work in pvp in any meaningful way.

Honestly, the issue is Mesmer itself. The class is just a clusterduck of design ideas that DO NOT mesh well. A summoner class that is also an illusionist that also is a heavy crowd control class that is ALSO a nuke machine that is ALSO an evasion machine that is ALSO... You get the point. The class is just a pain to fight, and a lot of these core class traits are to blame. Condi mesmer wouldn't be so cancer if the illusions did NO DAMAGE and didn't apply debuffs. But they do. Meaning the mesmer can just spawn illusions/phantasms and play super defensively while the illusions stack debuffs for free damage. If we look at Mesmer in its unnerfed glory?1) It is a nuking machine with access to 6 seconds of teamwide stealth every 60 seconds and a total uptime of over 12 seconds of personal stealth. It can easily pump out over 20 thousand damage in under a second FROM STEALTH in a combo that requires no skill to pull off and can be done with a macro.2) It is a class that summons an endless stream of minions that block skillshots and projectiles. Unless the enemy has piercing shots on all their attacks, them being able to hit you isn't just based on if they can find you anymore.3) Mesmer is a class with access to over 6 seconds of CONTINUOUSLY re-apply daze. You need over a stack of 7 stability to endure the daze chain, and stun breaks won't stop it. In terms of ganking power, the daze spam alone can instantly end a fight.4) Incredibly annoying to fight. Unlike other classes, who at most have a stealth to make you lose targetting of them, Mesmer has the uniquely frustrating ability to teleport around and just remove themselves from your target. Because why not? Fighting mesmer is not a fight between you and the opponent. It's a 2v1 fight between you + the game's mechanics and the opponent. On top of disjointing, the class is well known for their insane mobility and constantly movement.5) Uniquely frustrating to fight. It's entirely possible for a mesmer to completely evade your attacks in the short time it takes them to burst you down. I've had several fights against the same mesmer where I either don't hit them a single time OR kill them before they can even hurt me. Having such a flip-flopping extreme between wins and losses is BAD class design. There simply isn't another way to describe it.

If I had to choose, I would rather Mesmer be outright deleted and have something else take its place. Seeing as that won't happen, the class just needs to be completely redesigned. If they want to be an illusionist, they shouldn't be harming people with ILLUSIONS. Smoke and Mirror characters are fine, but not when the smoke is actually poison gas that slowly kills you while you desperately smash all the mirrors to find them. If they want to be a unique spin of mental magic? Go for it! You can't have both. It causes way too many problems.

[Shadow.1345]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

those are utilities they CAN get.I listed what Mirage as a traitline offers, aparently you aint bright so you didnt get it.I can go down the stupid list and do this for SPB so you MIGHT just MIGHT understand how dumb that sounds.SPB gets :225 power225 ferocity10% damage bonusimmob on CCpulsing revelpulsing mightpullreset on F1 skillsextra adrenaline on boon removalboon removal on CCDamage on CCExtra F2 ability that blocks hits, dazes and refreshes F1Dagger F1 that dashes and removes boonsDagger F2 that slowsDagger F3 that stunssuper fast low cooldown aoe boon ripdome that rips boons and makes boon aplication not workAoe taunt that gives adrenalinecondi clear that healssuperspeed and resistancewow such broken!

You pretty much made that list already but hey you knock yourself out. Do you feel better now? You come off as the kind of person that likes to put others down to make yourself feel better.

Yet you keep failing to answer my question, how does one elite class, that you keep coming back to, change anything about how powerful Mirage Cloak is? You never answer that. You just keep comparing the two as if that is an answer. So Mr. Smart Guy, explain to me, Mr. Dumb Guy, how comparing those two elites makes Mirage Cloak not powerful?

[Genesis.5169]

@Lost Elegy.9276 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:Undo these changes anet everything about our class is punishing to us we lose out on so many things pressing half of our buttons. If we shatter we lose our clones and with that use of IH so every fight we take you as DEV are forcing us TO NOT USE four of our skills pretty much ever unless we have no clones up and we are shattering to daze or get vigor. Our Dodge our offensive and defensive tool giving us one dodge no forces us to pick offense or defense on our dodge and our shatters? No other class fights it self like this. And because of this you've locked our utilities skills since we have only 1 dodge we have to run blink and decoy or signet. NO CLASS HAS IS FORCED TO REDUCE THERE OWN POWER OR SURVIVABILITY TO WORK LIKE THIS ACTIVELY, sure statwise when you pick your amulet and you pick your traitline everyone makes those choices.

BUT YOUR FORCING MESMERS TO MAKE THAT CHOICE NOT ONLY IN CHARACTER BUILDING STATLINES TRAITLINES BUT IN ALL ACTIVE USE OF HALF MY BAR? INCLUDING MY GOD kitten DODGE? EVEN USE OF MY UTILITIES ARE COMPLETELY 100% REACTIVE NOW.

I can't shatter when i want.I can't dodge when i want.I can't use my utilities when i want because i have one dodge and now my utility bar is a kitten version of my endurance bar.I can't even use jaunt as i want because we have terrible condition removal and most of us run Lyssa so jaunt doubles as condition cleanse.

And you wonder why mesmers just end up making 3 clones and just doing nothing its because we can't do anything at all EVEN IF WE WANTED because all of our tools reveal us or you guessed it completely reactive.

Eles can press most there bar without much worry at all.Wars can press most there bar without much worry at all.Rangers can press most there bar without much worry at all.Thieves can press most there bar without much worry at all.Rev can press most there bar without much worry at all.Engineers can press most there bar without much worry at all.Gaurdians can press most there bar without much worry at all.

Mesmers top bar is mostly unusable, left side is mostly unusable because one dodge makes it a reactive bar not a proactive bar, our Elite is half blocked because of one dodge and no condition cleanse and screw you guys with elusive mind no one is gonna run it is trash and you know it fix it, Can't dodge if we want to even just to get some space some extra movement that every class dodge dodge rolling cause its slightly faster then running specially if your safe and to boot were punished for saving our dodge because we have one bar of dodge and not dodging is actively losing dps but in dodging we actively lose defense (please tell me what class has to deal with this?).

People complain about mirage passive gameplay this is why because almost every decision we make has a huge draw back and not like and OH no i just missed this big damage cool down i guess i gotta play defense now, its a oh no ima die now draw back. So you know what mirages do? Nothing. Why? Because have the choices we make draw backs are so huge its not worth it hell were so squishy that using a weapon skill is scary cause u don't wanna reveal where you are because if u do your dead.

Thats my full view of the matter.Ive quit the class all together i'm done with this now its clear to me thats Anet as a company and the gw2 community just does want this class to work in pvp in any meaningful way.

Honestly, the issue is Mesmer itself. The class is just a clusterduck of design ideas that DO NOT mesh well. A summoner class that is also an illusionist that also is a heavy crowd control class that is ALSO a nuke machine that is ALSO an evasion machine that is ALSO... You get the point. The class is just a pain to fight, and a lot of these core class traits are to blame. Condi mesmer wouldn't be so cancer if the illusions did NO DAMAGE and didn't apply debuffs. But they do. Meaning the mesmer can just spawn illusions/phantasms and play super defensively while the illusions stack debuffs for free damage. If we look at Mesmer in its unnerfed glory?1) It is a nuking machine with access to 6 seconds of teamwide stealth every 60 seconds and a total uptime of over 12 seconds of personal stealth. It can easily pump out over 20 thousand damage in under a second FROM STEALTH in a combo that requires no skill to pull off and can be done with a macro.2) It is a class that summons an endless stream of minions that block skillshots and projectiles. Unless the enemy has piercing shots on all their attacks, them being able to hit you isn't just based on if they can find you anymore.3) Mesmer is a class with access to over 6 seconds of CONTINUOUSLY re-apply daze. You need over a stack of 7 stability to endure the daze chain, and stun breaks won't stop it. In terms of ganking power, the daze spam alone can instantly end a fight.4) Incredibly annoying to fight. Unlike other classes, who at most have a stealth to make you lose targetting of them, Mesmer has the uniquely frustrating ability to teleport around and just remove themselves from your target. Because why not? Fighting mesmer is not a fight between you and the opponent. It's a 2v1 fight between you + the game's mechanics and the opponent. On top of disjointing, the class is well known for their insane mobility and constantly movement.5) Uniquely frustrating to fight. It's entirely possible for a mesmer to completely evade your attacks in the short time it takes them to burst you down. I've had several fights against the same mesmer where I either don't hit them a single time OR kill them before they can even hurt me. Having such a flip-flopping extreme between wins and losses is BAD class design. There simply isn't another way to describe it.

If I had to choose, I would rather Mesmer be outright deleted and have something else take its place. Seeing as that won't happen, the class just needs to be completely redesigned. If they want to be an illusionist, they shouldn't be harming people with ILLUSIONS. Smoke and Mirror characters are fine, but not when the smoke is actually poison gas that slowly kills you while you desperately smash all the mirrors to find them. If they want to be a unique spin of mental magic? Go for it! You can't have both. It causes way too many problems.

No thats your issue with mesmers.

[Shadow.1345]

@bravan.3876 said:

@"Shadow.1345" said:Either way it's all a matter of opinion and most likely I am wrong because I am trash.At least your class and for some parts gameknowledge is uhhm... very not so good. Considering that you don't even see that 1 dodge bar change completely contradicts your goal of making Mirage more skilled and less noobcarry.

Yeah, I'm the dumbest guy on the planet so that isn't much. Also, I haven't played this game much in the past year or two but what I do know is when I came back to playing PvP a few months ago, I found through the use of Scepter and Staff skill 2 along with using shatters regularly to keep my Vigour up, especially Cry of Frustration, that it was pretty easy to just pretty much spam dodges and evade attacks, and according to you my knowledge is "pretty not good" so I don't think it took too much skill so pretty much anybody could do it too.

Overall you gave a great response and I learned a lot from it but I think the choice came between gutting the whole mesmer class (because removing attacks from the clones would mean removing those attacks from the players or else just making the clones easier to tell apart than they already are) or limiting how often Mirage Cloak could be used so they went with that. As much as people argue and tell me they are wrong because they are salty about having their class nerfed nobody has been able to deny that Mirage Cloak is a very powerful ability.

Also, it wasn't my goal. It was ANet's goal. I was just explaining the clear reasoning behind their decision. Don't confuse the two.

[Shadow.1345]

@Daishi.6027 said:The problem is A-net who either has the same opinion, or at least follows the endless screeching of people with a clear agenda, fueled by group think, and not an ounce of critically valid or cogent arguments based upon factual evidence.

No, ANet makes decisions based on information that they have gathered, not based on what people on the forums whine about. Thinking otherwise is just being salty because you didn't get what you want.

Condi is king for mesmer because of how easy it is compared to power. Power involves risk while condi you can just apply and then hide while your clones do all of the work. As for myself I plan to just let time pass before I cry over the change and see how things work out because 2 days isn't much time for a fair assessment of how the meta will change. Everytime they nerf mesmer every mesmer main cries like it is the end of the world and mesmer still ends up being meta.