Unlock elite spec Weapons to core

[kharmin.7683]

@"Taril.8619" said:

Given that there are a number of E-Specs that literally don't use their associated weapons, how much of a "Feature" of the E-Spec are the weapons?Really? Where? I have not seen this before.

Now, if players choose not to use the associated weapon because it isn't META, then that's a different argument.

[Voltekka.2375]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I could strait off the bat name at least 4-5 combinations of elite spec weapons which would be a total pain to balance when used with a different elite specialization based on their utility alone.

Such as?

@Cyninja.2954 said:That was not what I was referring to primarily though. I was referring to the fact that a change like making it only pve viable (which was suggested as a way to avoid balance issues) would cause even more splits to development and work.

Though, personally, I don't ask for such a thing.

I really don't see the need to specifically make it a PvE only thing. Especially given how many E-Spec weapons simply aren't used.

@Cyninja.2954 said:That is your interpretation (and a very limited at that) given how almost all elite specs make use of their unique weapons and utilities, it is very clear that these weapon are either:

They do not.

There are many Elementalist builds that use Staff as Tempest/Weaver or use D + F/D instead of Sword. As well as many Weaver builds that don't use Stances.

A lot of Engie builds still just use Rifle and don't use Exceed skills (With usually the 1 they use being Laser Disc but Exceed skills would also be less desirable without Holo due to heat bonuses)

Pretty much no Dragonhunter uses Longbow and builds tend to only use 1 Trap (Procession of Blades)

Most Chronomancers don't use Shield and typically only the Boon focused variety use Wells. Also, Mirage only uses their Deception skills due to the Mirage trait Self-Deception without it these builds wouldn't use them (Maybe Jaunt would still be used in PvE given that Mesmer Elites are underwhelming there)

Plenty of Reaper builds don't use Shouts, especially Raid builds which tend to favour the Minion skills and Well of Suffering. Though it's worth noting that GS and Torch are both used a lot in Necro mostly because their core weapons are pretty trash.

Few Ranger builds use Dagger MH even fewer use Stances or Glyphs.

Few Revenant's use Shortbow or Shield.

Few Thief's use either Physical or Cantrips.

I can't find any Spellbreaker builds that use even a single Meditation. While I can only find a few Berserker builds that use Torch.

If these things were "Direct upgrades to core" then you'd expect to see

every

build running their associated weapons and a full suite of their unique utilities.

If these things were in tune with the E-Spec, you'd see much higher representation of their utilities and likely a higher volume of a particular build type on a specific E-Spec (Especially a build type only created with an E-spec). But we see plenty of cases where an E-Spec opens something like a Support build but still has Power

AND

Condi DPS variants (I.e. Chrono, Herald, Renegade, Druid, Firebrand and Tempest)

If these things were balanced as a package deal, they every build would be running their associated weapons and full suite of unique utilities because they would be balanced around that. In reality, there are plenty of times where core weapons and utilities are used instead, which leads towards GW2's entire ethic of "Play how you want" which allows you to pick specs you want, weapons you want and use gear you want to try and make things work. That is until E-Specs introduced the whole "You

MUST

play with this E-Spec to use this weapon that isn't really tied to the E-Spec in any way"

It would be a different story if all E-Spec weapons were like Holo Sword, in that they utilized the E-Spec's unique mechanic in their functionality, which would make them more focused around being paired with said E-Spec. But this is not the case. All E-Spec weapons except Holo Sword have 0 interaction with their E-Spec (Before you argue Thief Rifle, Deadeye provides the Malice scaling mechanic to all weapons not just Rifle), with additionally only a few E-Specs even getting a Trait to buff the weapon.

But as it stands, the majority of E-Spec weapons are simply designed as regular weapons, which makes them feel like they could become core without much issue.

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, it is exactly the reason to not ask for changes which increase workload.

If I personally had to chose between making weapons available to core or getting a third elite specialization, I'd go with a new elite specialization all the way and every type of implementation which supports or helps this outcome. Increasing already high workload is as such not my first choice.

Increased workload?

Because of?

Adding 2 additional Adrenaline tiers to Warrior Dagger and putting Malice scaling on a Malicious Hook Strike?

Those would be the only additions required to allow current weapons to become core. (That and adjusting the weapon unlock part of the E-Spec to be global. Which is already partially the case, given that you can equip E-Spec weapons after unlocking them even without the E-Spec equipped and save them to loadouts. You just miss the ability to use them)

Unless you're still talking like

EVERYONE

who wants E-Spec weapons to be more available specifically wants some random PvE split that would require more work.

I can only imagine, on top of my head, wvw core warr using dagger, mirage or core mesmer with shield, core burn guard with longbow pulls. Yes, so balanced. Much fun. Unless you only want this for open world pve, which still makes even less sense cause everything in OW pve melts with pressing 1 and 2. And it doesnt justify the extra workload for the splitting between modes...

[Kodama.6453]

@Taril.8619 said:

There is another point to consider: Since these weapons and utility skills are designed differently, there will be an unfair discrepancy between the classes. Because some of the weapons and utility skills require your elite spec mechanic to become good, while others don't and would work the same without the elite spec associated with them.

You already named examples yourself. Holosmith's sword on core class would just suck, since you lose the damage bonuses from the heat mechanic. Same for exceed skills, they get huge upgrades through the heat mechanic. These skills are way weaker without the holosmith trait line.

Meanwhile necromancers, for example, don't have any elite spec weapons or utility skills which rely on their elite spec mechanic. Greatsword, torch, shouts, punishments.... these all would work without the associated trait line. Meaning that these would get more variety from enabling them to use this stuff on core compared to other classes like the engineer.

Which doesn't seem fair and balanced, if you ask me. It will create balancing problems, that's for sure. It's simply not worth it.

[lare.5129]

yes, unlock to core possible. Ofc if you have exp3

[Cyninja.2954]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I could strait off the bat name at least 4-5 combinations of elite spec weapons which would be a total pain to balance when used with a different elite specialization based on their utility alone.

Such as?

• Mirage with a shield (10 seconds of block with an aoe double stun on multiple targets on the class which just now lost its 2nd dodge).
• axe on condi chrono
• sword on scrapper (which allows for sword shield combo on scrapper)
• torch on core necro for pvp
• any dagger skills on warrior builds
• the entire elementalist design with shared skills on weaver
• staff on deadeye or to be more exact, staff and rifle on any thief together

and that's just off the top of my head. Without considering additional weapons from future elite specializations. All of those aforementioned combination would require serious reworks.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:That was not what I was referring to primarily though. I was referring to the fact that a change like making it only pve viable (which was suggested as a way to avoid balance issues) would cause even more splits to development and work.

Though, personally, I don't ask for such a thing.

I really don't see the need to specifically make it a PvE only thing. Especially given how many E-Spec weapons simply aren't used.

I was addressing the comment which offered this as a balance solution, obviously showing that some players consider this all weapons available approach as problematic for pvp. I was explaining how this is no solution. The fact you don't see an issue at all with pvp balance, while I personally might find disturbing, was not the target of my explanation.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:That is your interpretation (and a very limited at that) given how almost all elite specs make use of their unique weapons and utilities, it is very clear that these weapon are either:

They do not.

There are many Elementalist builds that use Staff as Tempest/Weaver or use D + F/D instead of Sword. As well as many Weaver builds that don't use Stances.

Yes, there are many builds which are sub-optimal. I thought this was about top end builds or problems due to weapons being to powerful?

@Taril.8619 said:A lot of Engie builds still just use Rifle and don't use Exceed skills (With usually the 1 they use being Laser Disc but Exceed skills would also be less desirable without Holo due to heat bonuses)

The fact that sword and rifle are very close does not make sword in any way less powerful. On the contrary, sword would be a superb main hand on any non holo build for its purposes.

@Taril.8619 said:Pretty much no Dragonhunter uses Longbow and builds tend to only use 1 Trap (Procession of Blades)

Yes, DH longbow is in a tough spot since it does not synergize with the rest of the builds trap nature. That's more a design problem of DH. It does not diminish the strength of Longbow though, nor of the traps.

@Taril.8619 said:Most Chronomancers don't use Shield and typically only the Boon focused variety use Wells. Also, Mirage only uses their Deception skills due to the Mirage trait Self-Deception without it these builds wouldn't use them (Maybe Jaunt would still be used in PvE given that Mesmer Elites are underwhelming there)

So the main build chrono sees use as, tank and boon support, is not considered the main thing to balance around? Shield is used on probably 80% of all chrono builds, especially now where chrono has no pvp presence.

Plenty of Reaper builds don't use Shouts, especially Raid builds which tend to favour the Minion skills and Well of Suffering. Though it's worth noting that GS and Torch are both used a lot in Necro mostly because their core weapons are pretty trash.

A lot of reaper builds use shouts in WvW. Not sure what you are talking about.

@Taril.8619 said:Few Ranger builds use Dagger MH even fewer use Stances or Glyphs.

Dagger main is meta, even if it shares its spot with sword on dps builds.

@Taril.8619 said:Few Revenant's use Shortbow or Shield.

You mean besides one of THE most powerful condi builds, right?

@Taril.8619 said:Few Thief's use either Physical or Cantrips.

@Taril.8619 said:I can't find any Spellbreaker builds that use even a single Meditation. While I can only find a few Berserker builds that use Torch.

Pretty much every berserker condi build uses torch.

Break enchantments is a must use skill in WvW. As is reveal. Not sure what spellbreakers you play. Their meditations see a ton of use, as do their daggers.

@Taril.8619 said:If these things were "Direct upgrades to core" then you'd expect to see every build running their associated weapons and a full suite of their unique utilities.

Which most builds do, IF the weapon fits the purpose of the build.

Your main problem here seems:A.) you keep switching between game modes you argueB.) you seem to not know which weapons are used for which purpose

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, it is exactly the reason to not ask for changes which increase workload.

If I personally had to chose between making weapons available to core or getting a third elite specialization, I'd go with a new elite specialization all the way and every type of implementation which supports or helps this outcome. Increasing already high workload is as such not my first choice.

Increased workload?

Because of?

Adding 2 additional Adrenaline tiers to Warrior Dagger and putting Malice scaling on a Malicious Hook Strike?

Not even going to answer this. The developers have made statements how much work it takes to balance around split skills. There is nothing which suggests that making changes as they are asked for here is in any way less work. On top of all this being additional work for future development.

[Taril.8619]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• sword on scrapper (which allows for sword shield combo on scrapper)

Meanwhile, several people in this thread have mentioned how Sword would suck outside of Holo due to not getting the Heat scaling...

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• the entire elementalist design with shared skills on weaver

How would this be a problem?

You realize that Weaver wouldn't get any additional skills other than those of Warhorn OH right? Since the Dual Wield skills are based on the MH weapon?

While only Weaver would be able to access Dual Wield skills because only Weaver can straddle 2 different attunements at the same time (Meaning any other build would get the pure element attacks from Sword)

@Cyninja.2954 said:I was addressing the comment which offered this as a balance solution, obviously showing that some players consider this all weapons available approach as problematic for pvp.

Yet you were addressing this in response to me, and I've never put forward such a suggestion.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, there are many builds which are sub-optimal. I thought this was about top end builds or problems due to weapons being to powerful?

Uhh... You say that like the meta for sPvP isn't Dagger/Focus on all Ele specs. With many popular WvW builds also using Staff on all Ele specs.

Only in PvE and specifically Raids and Fractals does Sword and Warhorn become a major focus.

@Cyninja.2954 said:The fact that sword and rifle are very close does not make sword in any way less powerful. On the contrary, sword would be a superb main hand on any non holo build for its purposes.

Given that Sword in non-Holo would be significantly weaker due to not having Heat scaling, I doubt that would be the case.

@Cyninja.2954 said:So the main build chrono sees use as, tank and boon support, is not considered the main thing to balance around? Shield is used on probably 80% of all chrono builds, especially now where chrono has no pvp presence.

I see plenty of DPS based Chronos.

Especially when you can have Renegade and Firebrand being the perma-Alacrity/Quickness buff bots.

Even Snow Crows has Power DPS Chrono as meta for equal numbers of bosses as Boon Chrono.

@Cyninja.2954 said:A lot of reaper builds use shouts in WvW. Not sure what you are talking about.

That doesn't detract from my statement.

Plenty of Reaper builds don't use shouts. PvE Reapers tend to not use Shouts. sPvP Reapers don't use shouts (Though Core Necro is the preferred sPvP build...)

WvW Reapers are the ones who mainly use shouts. But then again, I see 90% of Necro WvW builds being Scourge.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Dagger main is meta, even if it shares its spot with sword on dps builds.

Most builds I see are GS/LB. Outside of WvW where if I try to look for WvW builds on Ranger I just get "Not viable" as a result xD

It's only in Raids where I see Dagger MH being prominently featured.

@Cyninja.2954 said:You mean besides one of THE most powerful condi builds, right?

Given that the most powerful Rev Condi builds are Herald, I somehow doubt they're using Shortbow...

Meanwhile for Rene, in sPvP and WvW, the meta builds are Mace/Axe + Sword/Sword

It's only in Raids that SB is utilized.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Break enchantments is a must use skill in WvW. As is reveal. Not sure what spellbreakers you play. Their meditations see a ton of use, as do their daggers.

And yet, the meta build sites I visit suggest running Shouts build with For Great Justice/Shake it Off/Balanced Stance.

sPvP shows a standard Frenzy/Shake it Off/Bull's Charge.

While PvE is of course Bannerslave.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Which most builds do, IF the weapon fits the purpose of the build.

Which most builds do not.

Even when an E-Spec build uses their utility, they tend to only use 1 or at best 2. Not Heal skill + 3 Utility + Elite which would be expected if it was powercreep over base kit.

Many builds as I've mentioned, don't use their E-Spec's weapon.

Also, IF these things were supposed to be powercreep over base kits, then there wouldn't be any Core builds. Yet, Core Necro, Core Ranger, Core Mesmer and Core Guardian see play still (Depending on game mode)

@Cyninja.2954 said:Your main problem here seems:A.) you keep switching between game modes you argue

That's because balance requires thought of all game modes...

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not even going to answer this. The developers have made statements how much work it takes to balance around split skills. There is nothing which suggests that making changes as they are asked for here is in any way less work. On top of all this being additional work for future development.

Except, again, I don't suggest the split skills thing. Like I've mentioned repeatedly now.

Also, you said it yourself, that it's not guaranteed that we get any more E-Specs so "Additional work for future development" is by your own account, not even guaranteed.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• sword on scrapper (which allows for sword shield combo on scrapper)

Meanwhile, several people in this thread have mentioned how Sword would suck outside of Holo due to not getting the Heat scaling...

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• the entire elementalist design with shared skills on weaver

How would this be a problem?

You realize that Weaver wouldn't get any additional skills other than those of Warhorn OH right? Since the Dual Wield skills are based on the MH weapon?

While only Weaver would be able to access Dual Wield skills because only Weaver can straddle 2 different attunements at the same time (Meaning any other build would get the pure element attacks from Sword)

@Cyninja.2954 said:I was addressing the comment which offered this as a balance solution, obviously showing that some players consider this all weapons available approach as problematic for pvp.

Yet you were addressing this in response to me, and I've never put forward such a suggestion.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, there are many builds which are sub-optimal. I thought this was about top end builds or problems due to weapons being to powerful?

Uhh... You say that like the meta for sPvP isn't Dagger/Focus on all Ele specs. With many popular WvW builds also using Staff on all Ele specs.

Only in PvE and specifically Raids and Fractals does Sword and Warhorn become a major focus.

@Cyninja.2954 said:The fact that sword and rifle are very close does not make sword in any way less powerful. On the contrary, sword would be a superb main hand on any non holo build for its purposes.

Given that Sword in non-Holo would be significantly weaker due to not having Heat scaling, I doubt that would be the case.

@Cyninja.2954 said:So the main build chrono sees use as, tank and boon support, is not considered the main thing to balance around? Shield is used on probably 80% of all chrono builds, especially now where chrono has no pvp presence.

I see plenty of DPS based Chronos.

Especially when you can have Renegade and Firebrand being the perma-Alacrity/Quickness buff bots.

Even Snow Crows has Power DPS Chrono as meta for equal numbers of bosses as Boon Chrono.

@Cyninja.2954 said:A lot of reaper builds use shouts in WvW. Not sure what you are talking about.

That doesn't detract from my statement.

Plenty of Reaper builds don't use shouts. PvE Reapers tend to not use Shouts. sPvP Reapers don't use shouts (Though Core Necro is the preferred sPvP build...)

WvW Reapers are the ones who mainly use shouts. But then again, I see 90% of Necro WvW builds being Scourge.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Dagger main is meta, even if it shares its spot with sword on dps builds.

Most builds I see are GS/LB. Outside of WvW where if I try to look for WvW builds on Ranger I just get "Not viable" as a result xD

It's only in Raids where I see Dagger MH being prominently featured.

@Cyninja.2954 said:You mean besides one of THE most powerful condi builds, right?

Given that the most powerful Rev Condi builds are Herald, I somehow doubt they're using Shortbow...

Meanwhile for Rene, in sPvP and WvW, the meta builds are Mace/Axe + Sword/Sword

It's only in Raids that SB is utilized.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Break enchantments is a must use skill in WvW. As is reveal. Not sure what spellbreakers you play. Their meditations see a ton of use, as do their daggers.

And yet, the meta build sites I visit suggest running Shouts build with For Great Justice/Shake it Off/Balanced Stance.

sPvP shows a standard Frenzy/Shake it Off/Bull's Charge.

While PvE is of course Bannerslave.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Which most builds do, IF the weapon fits the purpose of the build.

Which most builds do not.

Even when an E-Spec build uses their utility, they tend to only use 1 or at best 2. Not Heal skill + 3 Utility + Elite which would be expected if it was powercreep over base kit.

Many builds as I've mentioned, don't use their E-Spec's weapon.

Also, IF these things were supposed to be powercreep over base kits, then there wouldn't be any Core builds. Yet, Core Necro, Core Ranger, Core Mesmer and Core Guardian see play still (Depending on game mode)

@Cyninja.2954 said:Your main problem here seems:A.) you keep switching between game modes you argue

That's because balance requires thought of all game modes...

Yes, and I am looking at all game modes where elite weapons are meta and see use while you selectively take game modes or even part of game modes (like chrono in pve) to argue that their elite weapons are not as powerful as they are.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not even going to answer this. The developers have made statements how much work it takes to balance around split skills. There is nothing which suggests that making changes as they are asked for here is in any way less work. On top of all this being additional work for future development.

Except, again, I don't suggest the split skills thing. Like I've mentioned repeatedly now.

Also, you said it yourself, that it's not guaranteed that we get any more E-Specs so "Additional work for future development" is by your own account, not even guaranteed.

Exactly, in which case:A.) there are enough resources for additional e-specs-> which means that anything which adds or works detrimental to this expansion is undesirable (say things which do not scale well with additional e-specs)B.) there are NOT enough resources for additional e-specs (or similar content)-> in which case sure, one can ask for what ever one wants. That's like asking for resource allocation to something which would otherwise not gotten anyC.) the amount of resources for balance, skills, e-specs, etc. is fluctuating-> which would still benefit from a more streamlined system which scales well with new content

Given those options, I'd still argue for the system which is most friendly to developer resources. Having all weapons available at all time is not.

[Ultramex.1506]

You know? i'd hoped Anet will consider implementing few suggestions when they are repeated again and again

This Is Not One Of Them

[Taril.8619]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, and I am looking at all game modes where elite weapons are meta and see use while you selectively take game modes or even part of game modes (like chrono in pve) to argue that their elite weapons are not as powerful as they are.

And I'm looking at all game modes and looking at numerous builds on numerous sites.

If Elite weapons are as powerful as you're claiming them to be, they'd see use in 100% of builds where they would make sense.

But they are not.

There are PLENTY of builds that forgo them in favour of core weapons, across ALL game modes.

With only PvE being heavily dominated by usage of E-Spec weapons (If you look at specifically Snow Crows, other sites have many more PvE builds using non-Snow Crows set ups)

Which suggests that E-Spec weapons are not the end-all-be-all of weapons.

As should be the case, given that according to ANet, E-Specs are about a trade off of what you gain vs what you lose. With it being predicated on the balance of the core class mechanic changes rather than factoring in the weapons and utilities.

For example;

• Soulbeast sacrifices the ability to swap pets in combat to gain the benefit of being able to merge with pets.
• Spellbreaker sacrifices an Adrenaline bar and the ability to use T2/3 Burst skills to gain the benefit of Full Counter.
• Chrono sacrifices their baseline Shatters which include a shatter effect centred on themselves, to gain the benefit of the Chrono shatters.
• Mirage sacrifices Dodge Roll, to gain the benefit of Ambush attacks.

Etc.

If Weapons and Utilties were factored into the trade off and were considered beneficial, then E-Specs would come with more drawbacks to balance them out.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, and I am looking at all game modes where elite weapons are meta and see use while you selectively take game modes or even part of game modes (like chrono in pve) to argue that their elite weapons are not as powerful as they are.

And I'm looking at all game modes and looking at numerous builds on numerous sites.

If Elite weapons are as powerful as you're claiming them to be, they'd see use in 100% of builds where they would make sense.

But they are not.

There are

PLENTY

of builds that forgo them in favour of core weapons, across

ALL

game modes.

With only PvE being heavily dominated by usage of E-Spec weapons (If you look at specifically Snow Crows, other sites have many more PvE builds using non-Snow Crows set ups)

Which suggests that E-Spec weapons are not the end-all-be-all of weapons.

So wait, PvE specs are dominated by by e-spec weapons, which makes sense since here most builds that use them are pure in their design, where in pvp a lot more hybrid approaches are needed, and even in some pvp/wvw builds e-spec weapons are dominant (if the role for the elite in that game mode correlates with the e-specs weapon design).

Yet, they are not the be-all-end-all? Okay. You and I have a very different definition of powerful. Mine states that something has to be more or in many cases the most powerful option. That is not the same as it being the ONLY option.

Again, without factoring for even additional weapons or the extra work required.

But you do you, I honestly don't care. I highly doubt this will change as I expect the devs to actually try to maintain some type of workload balance.

[Fenom.9457]

I love this too, I desperately want to combine sword and war horn on my ele, or sword and overload skills. I’d gladly take a nerf to the damage even.

I also think it would be a great way to make use of excess hero points or at least some of them, if there were tracks you had to train

[The Greyhawk.9107]

I vote no.

[Taril.8619]

@Cyninja.2954 said:So wait, PvE specs are dominated by by e-spec weapons, which makes sense since here most builds that use them are pure in their design, where in pvp a lot more hybrid approaches are needed, and even in some pvp/wvw builds e-spec weapons are dominant (if the role for the elite in that game mode correlates with the e-specs weapon design).

Dominated, but not monopolized.

Even if you only take Snow Crows as the epitome of PvE, you have; Power Chrono, Condi Chrono, Heal Scrapper, Condi Holo, Condi Druid, Core Boon Thief, Core Power Guardian, Power Dragonhunter, Boon Herald, Alacrity Renegade, Heal Renegade, Power Banner Berserker and Power Berserker.

All of which, according to their optimal builds, either are Core specs (The Thief and Guardian core builds) or don't use their E-Spec's weapon.

Also, PvP/WvW builds don't have E-Spec weapons being dominant. Most tend to favour various core weapons that fit the game modes better (I.e. Staffs and Greatswords for AoE in WvW and Focus and Warhorn in sPvP for defence/utility).

@Cyninja.2954 said:Again, without factoring for even additional weapons or the extra work required.

Which, again, according to YOU, may not even be relevant since we may not even be getting additional E-Specs irregardless.

@Cyninja.2954 said:But you do you, I honestly don't care. I highly doubt this will change as I expect the devs to actually try to maintain some type of workload balance.

Clearly you do care. Otherwise you wouldn't have come into the thread in the first place to scoff at people whom have a different opinion, nor would you have started arguing with me in regards to if E-Spec weapons are powercreep and thus would be unbalanced when allowed to be used as Core (Which, many people would argue would be weaker overall since it's oft regarded that E-Specs themselves are powercreep, with certain exceptions such as Thief, Guardian, Necro and Ranger whom have viable Core builds)

At best, the situation is that E-Spec weapons are sometimes more acutely tailored towards a particular build (I.e. A Condi weapon). With often the case also being that given that 2 weapon sets are used for most classes (Sans Ele and Engie), that they complement what is otherwise an isolated weapon type for a build (I.e. Power Necro only had Axe/Focus before GS, due to Dagger and Warhorn being trash and everything else being Condi or Utility. So no surprises that when Reaper came out every Power Necro now runs GS + Axe/Focus. Same thing with Condi Necro, OH Dagger is trash so of course everyone is using Torch with their Scepter as Focus and Warhorn are Power based)

This latter aspect, of their being cases where a class has few options for a particular build type to the point of not having 2 viable weapon sets with the same focus, is one of the driving forces behind a wish for E-Spec weapons to become core. So you can play more variants of such a build without being locked in to a particular class mechanic due to the E-Spec (It'd be cool to play Condi Necro while having normal Shroud for example. Or playing a Melee Condi Ranger with 2 pets etc)

[Cyninja.2954]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:So wait, PvE specs are dominated by by e-spec weapons, which makes sense since here most builds that use them are pure in their design, where in pvp a lot more hybrid approaches are needed, and even in some pvp/wvw builds e-spec weapons are dominant (if the role for the elite in that game mode correlates with the e-specs weapon design).

Dominated, but not monopolized.

Read what I wrote:Monopolization is not necessary for something to be powerful. Even having over representation is already enough. Given how these weapons are currently implemented, they are more powerful than most of their core weapons, in some cases even without ANY trait bonuses.

@Taril.8619 said:Even if you only take Snow Crows as the epitome of PvE, you have; Power Chrono, Condi Chrono, Heal Scrapper, Condi Holo, Condi Druid, Core Boon Thief, Core Power Guardian, Power Dragonhunter, Boon Herald, Alacrity Renegade, Heal Renegade, Power Banner Berserker and Power Berserker.

Want me to make a list of ALL the builds on their site to prove my point? You mentioned how many? 13? (btw, condi chrono would absolutely use the mirage ax, just like some of the other builds would change, using that build as an example is quite weak since it's exatly a build which exists BECAUSE of the current limitation). How many builds are on the site? 40+?

Thanks for proving my point for PVE.

EDIT: and while on the issue of elite weapons seeing use or not, take a moment to consider WHY some builds don't use the elite weapons:

• Chrono Shield is a support and utility weapon, Mirage axe is a condition damage weapons. The fact why mesmer uses core weapons in just about all of its power builds should be very evident (even more since focus is seeing use, which is mediocre at best)
• scrapper hammer is a terrible heal weapon. It has a mix of offensive and defensive abilities, which makes it rather useful in WvW (where it actually sees use) on heal scrapper, but not in pve
• boon thief requires the 3 trait lines, the reason the build doesn't use an elite weapon is in no way related to thiefs elite weapons being underpowered.
• core power guardian is a variation on the DH build but makes use of 3 core trait lines. This makes no statement what so ever about the usefulness of the elite weapons. DH longbow is inferior to the core great-sword for a grouping perspective and while the weapon is not bad by any means, it is balanced for its range to some extent. Firebrand axe is a condi weapon, not sure why one would use this on a power build.
• boon herald does not need the tankiness of the shield as boon support. As Handkite and tank it absolutely uses the shield.

I could go on, but you should get the drift. Even in the builds where the elite weapons see no use, their absence is very easily attributed to them not fitting the role of the build, and by far not their power.

@Taril.8619 said:All of which, according to their optimal builds, either are Core specs (The Thief and Guardian core builds) or don't use their E-Spec's weapon.

The thief and guardian core builds are inferior to their elite counter parts and only excel in VERY limited situations or require specific setups.

@Taril.8619 said:Also, PvP/WvW builds don't have E-Spec weapons being dominant. Most tend to favour various core weapons that fit the game modes better (I.e. Staffs and Greatswords for AoE in WvW and Focus and Warhorn in sPvP for defence/utility).

Never said PvP is dominated, I said the weapons see use in builds which lend themselves to the weapons design, and for those builds, the elite weapons almost always see use over other core weapons.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Again, without factoring for even additional weapons or the extra work required.

Which, again, according to

YOU

, may not even be relevant since we may not even be getting additional E-Specs irregardless.

Yes, and I explained why I would still be against this type of feature being implemented/changed.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But you do you, I honestly don't care. I highly doubt this will change as I expect the devs to actually try to maintain some type of workload balance.

Clearly you do care. Otherwise you wouldn't have come into the thread in the first place to scoff at people whom have a different opinion, nor would you have started arguing with me in regards to if E-Spec weapons are powercreep and thus would be unbalanced when allowed to be used as Core (Which, many people would argue would be weaker overall since it's oft regarded that E-Specs themselves are powercreep, with certain exceptions such as Thief, Guardian, Necro and Ranger whom have viable Core builds)

It's called freedom of speech. I get to express my opinion, and this subject matter has been up for nearly 5 years now. Most of the time by people who put no thought into how complex of an issue this is. I simply didn't feel the need to initially put in paragraphs worth of effort for something which should be rather obvious to most. There are others threads on this issue where this was discussed, multiple times by now.

I didn't start an argument with you. You replied to my comment first. Ever since then I've been clarifying points or correcting yours.

[Taril.8619]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Read what I wrote:Monopolization is not necessary for something to be powerful. Even having over representation is already enough. Given how these weapons are currently implemented, they are more powerful than most of their core weapons, in some cases even without ANY trait bonuses.

Yes, but you have been going on about how "IT'S META FOR E-SPEC WEAPONS!" and "EVERYONE USES E-SPEC WEAPONS!" when there are quite clearly, even at Snow Crows level of optimization, builds that forgo their E-Spec weapons even if it is functional for the role that they're performing.

With "Over representation" being something you will need to provide evidence for, especially given my final statements of the previous post, about how classes utilize 2 weapon sets and how poorly represented some classes core available weapons are. Like for example, in regards to Power Necro. It literally only has 2 options for viable Power weapons. So what 2 weapon sets is it going to run? Does this mean that GS is over represented in Power Necro? Or is it simply a case of Necro needs more non-trash power weapons in general?

@Cyninja.2954 said:Want me to make a list of ALL the builds on their site to prove my point? You mentioned how many? 13? (btw, condi chrono would absolutely use the mirage ax, just like some of the other builds would change, using that build as an example is quite weak since it's exatly a build which exists BECAUSE of the current limitation). How many builds are on the site? 40+?

If you can utilize them to prove your point, go ahead. Especially factor in all the builds they have on there which are used for exactly 1 boss fight too. Bearing in mind what I just said about proving over representation.

Also, your comment about Condi Chrono using Axe just furthers my argument, that builds will have more available options of weapons to use with unlocked E-Spec weapons. Since currently, Mesmer has a small number of Condi weapons, with it mostly being focused around OH (Torch and traited Pistol) and with Staff being a joke weapon that is inconsistent in whether it wants to be a support tool or condi weapon...

@Cyninja.2954 said:Never said PvP is dominated, I said the weapons see use in builds which lend themselves to the weapons design, and for those builds, the elite weapons almost always see use over other core weapons.

You said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:even in some pvp/wvw builds e-spec weapons are dominant (if the role for the elite in that game mode correlates with the e-specs weapon design).

Unless you were trying to make a useless point along the lines that "Builds that use E-Spec weapons, use E-Spec weapons!", which is asinine...

Overall, PvP/WvW builds favour non-E-Spec weapons. Yes, SOME builds exist that use them, but we're apparently talking about optimal usage (As per your own quote) and the optimal builds disfavour them.

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's called freedom of speech. I get to express my opinion, and this subject matter has been up for nearly 5 years now. Most of the time by people who put no thought into how complex of an issue this is. I simply didn't feel the need to initially put in paragraphs worth of effort for something which should be rather obvious to most. There are others threads on this issue where this was discussed, multiple times by now.

Of course you have the right to express your opinion.

The fact is, you don't have to unless you care enough to do so.

Heck, if you're so sure that ANet won't be doing it anyway, then you don't even need to voice your opinion because it is apparently shared by ANet.

If you feel that the topic has already been discussed to death, then you could simply ignore the thread and move on? Unless you actually care enough to put the effort in to make posts in topics.

@Cyninja.2954 said:I didn't start an argument with you. You replied to my comment first. Ever since then I've been clarifying points or correcting yours.

It matters not who started the argument, you've continued it. You could have walked away at any time. If you really didn't care, you would have done so by now.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Read what I wrote:Monopolization is not necessary for something to be powerful. Even having over representation is already enough. Given how these weapons are currently implemented, they are more powerful than most of their core weapons, in some cases even without ANY trait bonuses.

Yes, but you have been going on about how "IT'S META FOR E-SPEC WEAPONS!" and "EVERYONE USES E-SPEC WEAPONS!" when there are quite clearly, even at Snow Crows level of optimization, builds that forgo their E-Spec weapons even if it is functional for the role that they're performing.

I've explained how the lack of elite weapons and builds can be explained. Read up top the edit.

@Taril.8619 said:With "Over representation" being something you will need to provide evidence for, especially given my final statements of the previous post, about how classes utilize 2 weapon sets and how poorly represented some classes core available weapons are. Like for example, in regards to Power Necro. It literally only has 2 options for viable Power weapons. So what 2 weapon sets is it going to run? Does this mean that GS is over represented in Power Necro? Or is it simply a case of Necro needs more non-trash power weapons in general?

Doesn't matter. The current gaps of core weapon availability and functionality is exactly a reason WHY elite specs where introduced. It is far easier to fill 1 gap but leave other gaps in tact to maintain balance (edit hint: something the devs are currently trying to implement and expand upon retroactively to elite specs if you've been following the last few moths of balance changes). If your goal is to fill all the gaps for builds without elite specializations, I am calling your demand for power creep right then and there.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Want me to make a list of ALL the builds on their site to prove my point? You mentioned how many? 13? (btw, condi chrono would absolutely use the mirage ax, just like some of the other builds would change, using that build as an example is quite weak since it's exatly a build which exists BECAUSE of the current limitation). How many builds are on the site? 40+?

If you can utilize them to prove your point, go ahead. Especially factor in all the builds they have on there which are used for exactly 1 boss fight too. Bearing in mind what I just said about proving over representation.

Also, your comment about Condi Chrono using Axe just furthers my argument, that builds will have more available options of weapons to use with unlocked E-Spec weapons. Since currently, Mesmer has a small number of Condi weapons, with it mostly being focused around OH (Torch and traited Pistol) and with Staff being a joke weapon that is inconsistent in whether it wants to be a support tool or condi weapon...

Read my edit, and yes, the chrono example is a perfect example how this leads to power creep and requires additional balancing. Which all of my arguments have been about and you ignore. I refered to this as part of the additional workload required of the developers.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Never said PvP is dominated, I said the weapons see use in builds which lend themselves to the weapons design, and for those builds, the elite weapons almost always see use over other core weapons.

You said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

even in some pvp/wvw builds e-spec weapons are dominant (if the role for the elite in that game mode correlates with the e-specs weapon design).

Unless you were trying to make a useless point along the lines that "Builds that use E-Spec weapons, use E-Spec weapons!", which is asinine...

Overall, PvP/WvW builds favour non-E-Spec weapons. Yes,

SOME

builds exist that use them, but we're apparently talking about optimal usage (As per your own quote) and the optimal builds disfavour them.

Yes, I said SOME PVP/WVW builds. Was my terminology unclear? You even quoted it. I clarified how and why elite weapons see or do not see use. In most cases if a build does not fit the elite weapons design or purpose. This is no indicator of them being less powerful.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I didn't start an argument with you. You replied to my comment first. Ever since then I've been clarifying points or correcting yours.

It matters not who started the argument, you've continued it. You could have walked away at any time. If you really didn't care, you would have done so by now.

Good point. Bye.

[Skyroar.2974]

I would love to play with a sword tempest or a core axe guardian. And if someday they ever get to add a greatsword to revenant, I would love to use that weapon type without being restricted by traits.

So yes, I think it would make the game more enjoyable, and balance wouldn't really be a large problem because they have already balance solutions for it: that the weapon's true potential is only unlocked with the elite spec traits.

[Kodama.6453]

@Taril.8619 said:

You still didn't respond to my point, tho.

For the system to allow to use elite spec weapons on core would be inherently unfair, since some classes have weapons designed in a way that makes them viable solely while used with their respective elite spec, while other classes have not such limitations.

I don't think that we should introduce something that makes the treatment of classes so unfair.

[Taril.8619]

@"Kodama.6453" said:You still didn't respond to my point, tho.

For the system to allow to use elite spec weapons on core would be inherently unfair, since some classes have weapons designed in a way that makes them viable solely while used with their respective elite spec, while other classes have not such limitations.

I don't think that we should introduce something that makes the treatment of classes so unfair.

If by "Some classes" you mean literally only Holomancer.

No other E-Spec weapon in the game is influenced by their E-Spec, even ones that have traits that buff them are plenty viable without the trait.

Even then, Holo's Sword isn't Necro Dagger level of trash without Heat and without the 100%+ Heat trait and would be serviceable purely for being a Power MH weapon to go with a Shield.

Which also highlights the fact that even with Core Weapons, some are stinkers, such as Necro MH Dagger, Warrior Rifle, Guardian Hammer and Mace, Ranger Sword, Thief Shortbow (Outside specifically Infiltrator's Arrow) and Mesmer Scepter.

Unless this is "so unfair" and thus we should be asking for these weapons to be removed?

[Game of Bones.8975]

I can think it would be an interesting development.

Once you have mastered one elite specialization, you can use that new weapon with your core class, but not the alternate elite specialization.

Without having any of the new abilities attached to the weapon, it would be sub-par at best and not worthy of running around in anything but open-world core maps.

[maddoctor.2738]

Unlocking elite spec weapons to core is a discussion we've had on the forums since the first elite specs. Or even earlier than that, we had the discussion of giving more weapon types to more professions. I see one big issue with giving elite spec weapons to core specs, and that's the theme and the role of an elite spec. If the weapon provides a role that is identified with an elite spec and it non-existent in the core spec, then I'd say it's a big no to add it to core. On the other hand, some elite spec weapons are just there, not providing anything unique at all, those I guess could be added to core specs just fine.

For example, the Staff is the weapon of the Druid, it provides healing (mostly) something no other Ranger weapon does, outside finishers on water fields. The Staff is an integral part of the Druid and the "healing role" so giving the Staff to core wouldn't be a great idea and besides, I don't think any Ranger would pick the Staff anyway because it's a weapon for a role not really good on core Ranger.

On the other hand, the Dagger is the weapon of the Soulbeast. Not only Ranger has access to the Dagger as an off-hand, but main hand Dagger is a melee condition weapon, perfect to compliment the Torch (or Dagger off-hand). I see little -mechanical- drawbacks to giving main hand Dagger to core Ranger, and even flavor and theme wise.

[VocalThought.9835]

Locking out a weapon from core professions allows the Devs to have more freedom and the players to have more restrictions. The did the same thing when they changed the Taits Lines into Core Specializations. Giving the players more freedom give the Devs more restrictions when trying to balance this game. We saw it with Guild Wars 1. Players had a lot more leeway, while the Devs kept trying to catch up an implement things for the players that were struggling. Few players truly new how to create a good build, while many were able to create what they wanted, but were so ineffective.

This why the have the weapon system the way they do, the professions, the specializations. It's all streamline to optimize their freedom of balance and so we can work with in the box they created for us with as much diversity as possible and still be viable.