Your entitlement to my LFG requirements

[Vilin.8056]

@"Firebeard.1746" said:I've seen similar attitudes in strikes as well. It's not like i've never worked with the community before. Literally after tons of people wipe to mechanics on whisper "if you dps isn't 10k, don't join as dps" and kicked people. I was the healer. The run didn't succeed. And it wasn't because of dps. I never vet my member's dps when i start runs and usually if i have the right healers, we always succeed.Simply because you have multiple dps players that actually went above 10k in these successful fights without you noticing.

I've had 3 continous wipes with 2 heal scourges and 2 healers trying to help a casual squad, the heals got everyone up throughout the fight, boon was consistent, but there isn't enough DPS to finish the fight before the enrage timer.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Firebeard.1746 said:The whole premise of this thread is someone defending their ridiculous lfgs and you're telling me i'm crazy for believing it's normal lol.Actually the premise of the OP was that it is their LFG, if they want to set a barrier for entry they are completely within their right to do so and it's no one's business to say anything.It is still correct regardless of how you feel about those barriers.

[Firebeard.1746]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@"Firebeard.1746" said:I've seen similar attitudes in strikes as well. It's not like i've never worked with the community before. Literally after tons of people wipe to mechanics on whisper "if you dps isn't 10k, don't join as dps" and kicked people. I was the healer. The run didn't succeed. And it wasn't because of dps. I never vet my member's dps when i start runs and usually if i have the right healers, we always succeed.Simply because you have multiple dps players that actually went above 10k in these successful fights without you noticing.

I've had 3 continous wipes with 2 heal scourges and 2 healers trying to help a casual squad, the heals got everyone up throughout the fight, boon was consistent, but there isn't enough DPS to finish the fight before the enrage timer.

That's because too much of your group was healers. You can do Bears, Fraenir & Shiverpeaks with just one. I'll start running arc because I'm curious now. I've only done up to 3, but even on boneskinner you can usually do 2 if at least one is an HB or Scourge heal. I've only taken up to 3 on jormag. Of all the times I've wiped on Jormag, I think timer was one of many. 90% the time, it's because the group can't survive bullet hell end phase. If you think group DPS is low, swap to one of your DPS toons. I'm sure a single good DPS can carry. I usually run my Elementalist and fill with DPS to get 2/2 bonus chests and solo heal the 3 easy ones (and can sustan might on my own). People on these forums talk about carrying like it's the worst thing in the world. O no! You helped someone! How terrible! I think the game could do a better job of finding a nice way to communicate to people that they can improve performance. Especially with the 1:10 ratios that exist in performance, but helping a community in an MMO isn't the most terrible thing ever.

[Firebeard.1746]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Firebeard.1746" said:The whole premise of this thread is someone defending their ridiculous lfgs and you're telling me i'm crazy for believing it's normal lol.Actually the premise of the OP was that it is their LFG, if they want to set a barrier for entry they are completely within their right to do so and it's no one's business to say anything.It is still correct regardless of how you feel about those barriers.

This has nothing to do with what I was responding to. I was responding to someone's comment about high standards in LFG and they acted like I was crazy thinking they existed. You can't tell me OP isn't whining because they're saying "LF Anything", I have no entitlement to Anyone's LFG standards. I completely agree. I also believe that it is completely within Anet's right to stop pushing content that the community doesn't do in response to said standards.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Firebeard.1746 said:I also believe that it is completely within Anet's right to stop pushing content that the community doesn't do in response to said standards.Are you trying to say that vast numbers of people aren't doing strikes?And that this is because of crazy LFG requirements?

[Firebeard.1746]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:I also believe that it is completely within Anet's right to stop pushing content that the community doesn't do in response to said standards.Are you trying to say that vast numbers of people aren't doing strikes?And that this is because of crazy LFG requirements?

No, I'm mostly jabbing at raids, where OP is likely putting ridiculous requirements, but am poking at how sometimes that toxicity bleeds through into other parts of the game.

[Cerioth.7062]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:I also believe that it is completely within Anet's right to stop pushing content that the community doesn't do in response to said standards.Are you trying to say that vast numbers of people aren't doing strikes?And that this is because of crazy LFG requirements?

No, I'm mostly jabbing at raids, where OP is likely putting ridiculous requirements, but am poking at how sometimes that toxicity bleeds through into other parts of the game.

And what would be these ridiculous requirements you describe?

[Shikaru.7618]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:I also believe that it is completely within Anet's right to stop pushing content that the community doesn't do in response to said standards.Are you trying to say that vast numbers of people aren't doing strikes?And that this is because of crazy LFG requirements?

No, I'm mostly jabbing at raids, where OP is likely putting ridiculous requirements, but am poking at how sometimes that toxicity bleeds through into other parts of the game.

Alternatively anet could close the 10x skill gap so this content doesnt require such a high bar in lfg. The fact that people can gear their characters in the wrong stats or still finish story without ever reading their traits is why the pug raid requirements exist.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Shikaru.7618" said:Alternatively anet could close the 10x skill gap so this content doesnt require such a high bar in lfg.And yet you tell the person running the half Soldiers/Half Apothecary Holosmith that their stats are not optimal and what happens?"I am playing how I want to"You might even get a lecture about being a "meta slave" and be called "elitist".So why remove that option from them? It's how they want to play the game.It is completely their prerogative. It's how they enjoy Guild Wars 2.The fact that people can gear their characters in the wrong stats or still finish story without ever reading their traits is why the pug raid requirements exist.Nope.This happens in every game, not just GW2. It happens in games like DCUO or SWTOR where it is mechanically impossible to hamstring your gear or join an instance you don't meet the gear score of.Some people want the maximum chance of success as fast as possible and they see LFG requirements as the way to achieve that. Others, such as myself feel that teams fill faster with an inclusive agenda and this gets things done every bit as quickly and without the pressure.Neither are really wrong.Fortunately people with both points of view are able to set the correct expectations for a team via an LFG requirement. Theirs can say "250LI, 30k opener or kick" and mine can say "All welcome, don't be a dooshwaffle".

[Shiyo.3578]

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Dungeons, strikes, raids - you name it, you literally have no power over me putting whatever I want in the LFG as long as it within the ToS. Every now and then some sad frog joins my squad or whispers me whenever I put up high-req LFG. Getting mad over the fact that I put my own LFG and have people join it anyway, baffles me. Nobody is forcing You to join it. You can literally make your own LFG with requirements You see fit. If I put 1k LI for raids and have people join it or 250 LI for all strikes run - It's none of your business. Make your own all welcome LFG have fun in the game the way you prefer. Thank you (:

Stuff like this actively kills the game and is why every smallish online community is completely horrible. All you're doing is making it so your game eventually DOES die(that means all your LI, ap, whatever, means nothing in the brand new game you'll play and get gate keeped out of!)

[Shikaru.7618]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Shikaru.7618" said:Alternatively anet could close the 10x skill gap so this content doesnt require such a high bar in lfg.And yet you tell the person running the half Soldiers/Half Apothecary Holosmith that their stats are not optimal and what happens?"I am playing

how I want

to"You might even get a lecture about being a "meta slave" and be called "elitist".So why remove that option from them? It's how they want to play the game.It is completely their prerogative. It's how they enjoy Guild Wars 2.The fact that people can gear their characters in the wrong stats or still finish story without ever reading their traits is why the pug raid requirements exist.Nope.This happens in every game, not just GW2. It happens in games like DCUO or SWTOR where it is mechanically impossible to hamstring your gear or join an instance you don't meet the gear score of.Some people want the maximum chance of success as fast as possible and they see LFG requirements as the way to achieve that. Others, such as myself feel that teams fill faster with an inclusive agenda and this gets things done every bit as quickly and without the pressure.Neither are really wrong.Fortunately people with both points of view are able to set the correct expectations for a team via an LFG requirement. Theirs can say "250LI, 30k opener or kick" and mine can say "All welcome, don't be a dooshwaffle".

You're not wrong. I dont have a problem with all welcome groups existing. The issue is always people complaining that my type of groups have too strict of requirements and they feel excluded from content when they can very well create all welcome groups and start the instance.

[Vilin.8056]

@Firebeard.1746 said:That's because too much of your group was healers. You can do Bears, Fraenir & Shiverpeaks with just one. I'll start running arc because I'm curious now. I've only done up to 3, but even on boneskinner you can usually do 2 if at least one is an HB or Scourge heal. I've only taken up to 3 on jormag. Of all the times I've wiped on Jormag, I think timer was one of many. 90% the time, it's because the group can't survive bullet hell end phase. If you think group DPS is low, swap to one of your DPS toons. I'm sure a single good DPS can carry. I usually run my Elementalist and fill with DPS to get 2/2 bonus chests and solo heal the 3 easy ones (and can sustan might on my own). People on these forums talk about carrying like it's the worst thing in the world. O no! You helped someone! How terrible! I think the game could do a better job of finding a nice way to communicate to people that they can improve performance. Especially with the 1:10 ratios that exist in performance, but helping a community in an MMO isn't the most terrible thing ever.

You realize this is a situation in Whispers of Jormag with a casual group with nobody surpass 10k DPS, with the all 10 players survive the fight till enrage where other groups usually lost 1-2 players? All 2 healscourge plus 2 healers are multi-role Raid experienced players, of course we know squad composition, however this is a casual group where they needed this level of assist.

Most importantly, you're overlooked the fact that a squad with 6 DPS roles with full boons should be capable of passing the boss within timer, which in every way counters your statement that sub 10k DPS don't matter.

I can see why in the end you're reducing healer roles in favor of more DPS roles at the expense of sustain (most notably for 2 healers in Boneskinner in a pug group), adding pressure to the healer role and held them responsible for squad wipes, without realize that this kills opportunities for new players learning healer which has a higher demand for player skill.

This has nothing to do communication to encourage or help people, I believe the most of us have gotten used to help or carry people through raid and strike missions, it is, as the Topic mentioned, that some people do get carried to an extent that they feel entitled for it, and become toxic whenever the opportunity isn't granted, with no intention of self improvement.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@"Firebeard.1746" said:That's because too much of your group was healers. You can do Bears, Fraenir & Shiverpeaks with just one. I'll start running arc because I'm curious now. I've only done up to 3, but even on boneskinner you can usually do 2 if at least one is an HB or Scourge heal. I've only taken up to 3 on jormag. Of all the times I've wiped on Jormag, I think timer was one of many. 90% the time, it's because the group can't survive bullet hell end phase. If you think group DPS is low, swap to one of your DPS toons. I'm sure a single good DPS can carry. I usually run my Elementalist and fill with DPS to get 2/2 bonus chests and solo heal the 3 easy ones (and can sustan might on my own). People on these forums talk about carrying like it's the worst thing in the world. O no! You helped someone! How terrible! I think the game could do a better job of finding a nice way to communicate to people that they can improve performance. Especially with the 1:10 ratios that exist in performance, but helping a community in an MMO isn't the most terrible thing ever.

You realize this is a situation in Whispers of Jormag with a casual group with nobody surpass 10k DPS, with the all 10 players survive the fight till enrage where other groups usually lost 1-2 players? All 2 healscourge plus 2 healers are multi-role Raid experienced players, of course we know squad composition, however this is a casual group where they needed this level of assist.

Most importantly, you're overlooked the fact that a squad with 6 DPS roles with full boons should be capable of passing the boss within timer, which in every way counters your statement that sub 10k DPS don't matter.

I can see why in the end you're reducing healer roles in favor of more DPS roles at the expense of sustain (most notably for 2 healers in Boneskinner in a pug group), adding pressure to the healer role and held them responsible for squad wipes, without realize that this kills opportunities for new players getting into healer roles where there is a higher demand for player skill.

This has nothing to do communication to encourage or help people, I believe the most of us have gotten used to help or carry people through raid and strike missions, it is, as the Topic mentioned, that some people do get carried to an extent that they feel entitled for it, and become toxic whenever the opportunity isn't granted, with no intention of self progression.

Whisper's average dps requirement to kill withing enrage timer is 41300 and that means that average squad member should've done at least 4,2k'ish dps if everyone survived. However, average healer does about 1k dps or lower and that means 4 healers together do as much as required from 1 dps in a run where everyone was a dps doing that average 4,2k and in 4-healer comp, healers together are about 60% of what's required from 1 dps.Since healers are hogging 4k dps from the cake, the 6 dpsers need to do 37,3/6=6,21k boss dps each by average. If 3 of them do 5k dps, the other 3 must do 7,5k to compensate. If you somehow lose a dps early to chains or something, the bar gets further ramped up.And if 3 of those healers are something like staff tempest and 2 heal scourges, that essentially means minimal fury, quickness and might (and no alacrity if you don't have alacrigade, chrono may do 60%ish for 5 as it's damn hard to hit people with wells on that boss) and further makes it harder for someone unaware of dps builds to do even that 6,2k dps. Possibly having no banners also contributes to that.

Good way to think about it is this way:

• Having more supports means less dpsers and dpsers need to dps harder. Thus dps check might be compromised.
• Having less supports means more dpsers and dpsers need to dps less. Thus survivability might be compromised and dps check too if people dps too much less.
• Having less supports means more dpsers and if the dpsers dps harder like they'd do with more supports, there will be less mechanics to die to which means less support needed. Thus both support and dps are less compromised.

Optimal situation is where you have both decent dpsers and enough support to keep them alive and one big difference in "all welcome" and "LF quickness BS alac heals dps" is that former ends up as either of first 2 options. Latter is trying to get 3rd option as that golden middle road for highest chance of success.Lots of people are quite conservative about it and try usual raid comp but one mistake lots of squads make is relying on druid as 2nd healer in raid comp as druid is one of weakest healers with might and (bursty) best heals in small'ish radius around itself. Generally warhorn tempest works better for Whisper and 2 good healbrands can do all traditional boons that druid would (including might if healbrands actually spam Empower off-CD which too few do) while also bringing quickness, stab, blocks and stronger more sustained heals which are especially needed in Boneskinner overheal strat.

And when it comes to Boneskinner, the options are pretty much A. try to kill it before the damage pressure gets high B. bring lots of healers and hope that nobody dies and dpsers dps enough C. bring a ressbot/strong pure healer as 3rd. D. do the mechanics.Usually people who know their class with optimized builds and rotations well go with A.People who more or less know their class with proper builds (not necessarily so optimized, like Kitty likes to meme with rifle warr and such) but prefer some extra safety go with C.People who don't know their class, build and boss are likely going B and hope the heals are strong enough and boss dies.People who really know Boneskinner sometimes go with D but Kitty hasn't personally seen that since the first week when Boneskinner arrived.

[Krzysztof.5973]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Stuff like this actively kills the game and is why every smallish online community is completely horrible. All you're doing is making it so your game eventually DOES die(that means all your LI, ap, whatever, means nothing in the brand new game you'll play and get gate keeped out of!)

So because small portion of players doing strikes chose to ask for LI in strike LFG section, It's somehow affecting vast majority of players making their own LFGs and blocking everyone from this gamemode - actively killing the game? Please explain to me your train of thought so we can understand.

[Henry.5713]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Dungeons, strikes, raids - you name it, you literally have no power over me putting whatever I want in the LFG as long as it within the ToS. Every now and then some sad frog joins my squad or whispers me whenever I put up high-req LFG. Getting mad over the fact that I put my own LFG and have people join it anyway, baffles me. Nobody is forcing You to join it. You can literally make your own LFG with requirements You see fit. If I put 1k LI for raids and have people join it or 250 LI for all strikes run - It's none of your business. Make your own all welcome LFG have fun in the game the way you prefer. Thank you (:

Stuff like this actively kills the game and is why every smallish online community is completely horrible. All you're doing is making it so your game eventually DOES die(that means all your LI, ap, whatever, means nothing in the brand new game you'll play and get gate keeped out of!)

Every game dies eventually. I doubt there is a single aspect of GW2 or tiny detail in design that is not being used to predict the inevitable doom of our game by one person or another. Not unlike any other MMORPG out there.

[Astralporing.1957]

The high requirements in raid and strike LFGs are not, and never were a problem. Not by itself anyway. The problem is that the groups without those requirements, in raids, and in at least some of the strikes, are extremely likely to fail unless most of the people in said groups actually could fulfill those "ridiculous" requirements of other groups.I mean, i have seen Shiverpeaks groups that actually manage to die on Shiverpeak boss (with heal present) and are carried to victory by the one or two decent players in that group that could probably solo it if not for the timer (or sometimes even within the timer). Now, that brings the question, what would happen to the groups that did not include those better players? And that's Shiverpeaks, which is laughably easy compared to the rest.

So, basically, you either run high requirements, or do not run said requirements, but still hope to get enough of players that would fulfill those to be able to make a kill. Or, if that hope won't get realized, you wipe.That is what is scaring away people from higher strikes (and Raids). Not the requirements themselves.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Stuff like this actively kills the game and is why every smallish online community is completely horrible. All you're doing is making it so your game eventually DOES die(that means all your LI, ap, whatever, means nothing in the brand new game you'll play and get gate keeped out of!)This kind of hyperbole, false rhetoric and drama-mongering serves no useful purpose.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:So, basically, you either run high requirements, or do not run said requirements, but still hope to get enough of players that would fulfill those to be able to make a kill. Or, if that hope won't get realized, you wipe.Just two choices huh?That is what is scaring away people from higher strikes (and Raids). Not the requirements themselves.I would counter and say the "quick loot" mentality the pervades this game is far more responsible for "scaring away" people. Why take a chance at failing the second two when you know the first three are gimmes and the rewards for WoJ and Boneskinner aren't that much better?It's the same reason you see 50-100 people idle in Amnoon before the Choya Pinata who don't even participate in the Casino Coin events or leave alts parked at Matriarch in VB and log them in just for the kill.If a player is trying to earn their cape, why chance Boneskinner when you can just put Voice and Claw on farm?It's not fear it's the result of the "lowest common denominator" reward system that this game has always favored.Pandering to the "everyone wins" mentality has bred this, not the challenge of the content or the high bar set in some LFGs.

[Astralporing.1957]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:So, basically, you either run high requirements, or do not run said requirements, but still hope to get enough of players that would fulfill those to be able to make a kill. Or, if that hope won't get realized, you wipe.Just two choices huh?Yes, what other choices are there? For pugs, i mean. Statics obviously won't have any LFG requirements at all, so they arent part of this discussion.

That

is what is scaring away people from higher strikes (and Raids). Not the requirements themselves.I would counter and say the "quick loot" mentality the pervades this game is far more responsible for "scaring away" people. Why take a chance at failing the second two when you know the first three are gimmes and the rewards for WoJ and Boneskinner aren't that much better?You did notice my comments about Shiverpeaks, right? Yes, obviously lot more people are doing first three that WoJ and boneskinner, but that does not change the fact that

1. a lot of people aren't even doing the first three (and do not necessarily find them as easy as you think they are)
2. lot of those that aren't doing WoJ and Boneskinner aren't skipping on them just because first three are easy loot, but simply because they
   cannot
   do those two. Not without being carried anyway.

If a player is trying to earn their cape, why chance Boneskinner when you can just put Voice and Claw on farm?True. At the same time, why "chance" Boneskinner if you

know

you will fail? There aren't many people that enjoy trying to keep continuously hitting their head against a brick wall, hoping this time the bricks will crumble. Most would either not try that at all, or would stop at the first feeling of pain, or realization that their forehead is bleeding - And that the brick wall is still as solid as before.It's not fear it's the result of the "lowest common denominator" reward system that this game has always favored.Nah, the hard strikes are still not less popular than raids. And raids do not offer easy alternatives for unique rewards they give. It's the difficulty and effort required that is a barrier.

Pandering to the "everyone wins" mentality has bred this, not the challenge of the content or the high bar set in some LFGs.No. The massive disparities between different skill levels this game system creates is what bred this. If the reward system was different, you'd still have the same amount of people playing harder content. You would also see a much lower overall game population.

[Tails.9372]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Yes, what other choices are there? For pugs, i mean.It depends on what you're after, public pugs work actually really well for FS. I've never had any problems finding a group although this might change once people "got what they wanted" but this can take a while depending on what they're going to do with the SM currency. The only two things you have to "worry" about are A: people not understanding that the 15 sec timer during the boss fight means "get ready to jump into the tank" and B: that people don't spam 3 once they're in it.

Also, this shows that there is a general interest to play instanced group content even among the more casual players. The issue is that the difficulty they feel comfortable with only really exists in OW PvE and story dungeons (and even some of those are questionable). Crank up the difficulty (or introduce a BB) and things can easily become a mess which leads to the issues you mentioned earlier. Problem is that the Devs. seem to equate "instanced group content" with "increased difficulty". Introduce some dungeons with a difficulty more on par with the average dynamic OW event (which is what FS arguably did), give it some decent rewards + an easily accessible hub and I would be surprised if this wouldn't become popular.

[Amineo.8951]

The game feels difficult for what you describe as casual players because it does a poor job at explaining mechanics and builds unlike other MMOs, I played other ones during my hiatus and it's the first thing that came to my mind, they just do a better a job accompanying the player through the whole game and you don't have to be an internet copycat to experience the harder content aside watching a guide.

Granted GW2 have better build variety and customization but what's the point when everyone's praising Snow Crows like actual divinities or higher entities? People are just insane...

Just now I did a full Fractal run + CMs with very kind people, even one guy who had a lot of experience was telling tips to others. Then at the last fractal, someone joins and starts being an ass at my build even though I've ran with the other 3 that were still in the team without any issues at all. Guess what? Dude was praising SC like a mad man and told me to not bother with endgame content anymore.

I'm not hating speedrunners or top tier guilds, I'm not the best player and I'm a human being with flaws, but this kind of behaviour is not making me want to come back making me wanna continue playing other games and I'm sure there are dozens of people out there who think the same, just my 2 cents.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Amineo.8951" said:I'm not hating speedrunners or top tier guilds, I'm not the best player and I'm a human being with flaws, but this kind of behaviour is not making me want to come back making me wanna continue playing other games and I'm sure there are dozens of people out there who think the same, just my 2 cents.Out of curiosity and no sarcasm intended but an honest question:Why is "Block and move on" not an option? Why allow a clearly ugly person this kind of power over you?

[Mad Queen Malafide.7512]

A few days ago I put up a lfg for a "newb friendly fractal group, all welcome". The result was surprising. I got mostly people who had never done Fractals at all, but wanted to learn. I told them that no one would get upset if they made a mistake, and that I would explain every fractal. They could bring whatever build they felt comfortable with, but I did advise them to bring condition removal and a stun breaker. Everyone listened very well to my instructions and it was a fast run. I have rarely had a random group that did so well. They were all very friendly nice people, and they were also really good players on top of that. We cleared each fractal smooth and quickly, which has not been my experience with any other random group. Also, they stuck around for 10 fractals in a row!

I think we need to be more inclusive, not exclusive.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Mad Queen Malafide.7512" said:A few days ago I put up a lfg for a "newb friendly fractal group, all welcome". The result was surprising. I got mostly people who had never done Fractals at all, but wanted to learn. I told them that no one would get upset if they made a mistake, and that I would explain every fractal. They could bring whatever build they felt comfortable with, but I did advise them to bring condition removal and a stun breaker. Everyone listened very well to my instructions and it was a fast run. I have rarely had a random group that did so well. They were all very friendly nice people, and they were also really good players on top of that. We cleared each fractal smooth and quickly, which has not been my experience with any other random group. Also, they stuck around for 10 fractals in a row!

I think we need to be more inclusive, not exclusive.

Sounds good.

Now imagine if people started to tell you that you have no right to make "newb friendly fractal group, all welcome" groups? How would that impact your enjoyment of the game?

[Mad Queen Malafide.7512]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Now imagine if people started to tell you that you have no right to make "newb friendly fractal group, all welcome" groups? How would that impact your enjoyment of the game?

I'm not sure what the point is that you are trying to make.

It wouldn't affect me, first of all. But second, that wouldn't happen, because I'm being inclusive. I haven't seen anyone in the game being against being inclusive. So where are you going with this?