Is heart of thorns meant to feel this hard as a new player?

[battledrone.8315]

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:Also polls on this forum always put Hot at the top of the favorite expansions.

i guess you werent there at launch. it made many people quit the ENTIRE GAME.

and what kind of mmo FORCES you to revamp your character and playstyle

?if its in the game, it should be viable for everything.

What? Every mmorpg with every major patch?

wrong, im still using the same builds on almost all my DC characters. 7 years in , and almost max gear rating now.same in STO. the forums always light up in rage when they try to do something like that.

Well I haven't played those 2 so I can't comment if this is viable or not but what is the point of a build then if you have the same for 7 years? They might as well just remove that part of the game if it's meant to be static forever. That is the point of the option to tailor you build, so you know, adapt it to the situation.

why would i change it , if it works ? i can kill mobs or do support...dont need more than that.

[battledrone.8315]

@Dayra.7405 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:wrong, im still using the same builds on almost all my DC characters. 7 years in , and almost max gear rating now.

Even more worying for me is: "even after 7 years only almost max gear", not a game for me :)

i am playing other games too, and i am altoholic...roughly 30 toons . i could had been at top level years ago, if i had focused on this game , and on one character.

[battledrone.8315]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@"Cuks.8241" said:Also polls on this forum always put Hot at the top of the favorite expansions.

i guess you werent there at launch. it made many people quit the ENTIRE GAME. and what kind of mmo FORCES you to revamp your character and playstyle?if its in the game, it should be viable for everything.

What the actual...?

Yes, if the game locks you into rigid templates like some MMOs do, then it makes sense for it to be viable. But with a free form system you have the opportunity to create a trash build. It's still technically viable, just trash tier.

so, what would happen if they buffed it to be GOOD? think about it....scary stuffit is only trash, because THEY WANT IT SO

You're really not thinking this through.

I am not saying that any particular trait line in GW2 is trash. Certainly, we can point to individual traits that are trash. But the whole idea of our trait system is to allow players to find synergy between traits to produce the outcomes they're looking for. What you call "forcing you to revamp your character and playstyle" is nothing more or less than that. That you produce a trash build does not mean that the system is trash.

so, will you give me 100s of gold, so i can EXPERIMENT with builds and runes at max level?

[Roche.7491]

@DisabledVelociraptor.7865 said:The leap in difficulty from the personal story to heart of thorns is insane... forgive me for complaining here but this is kitten near unenjoyable.. I wish there was some kind of difficulty setting for instances because I just want to experience the story without feeling like i'm being completely crushed by everything

Agree. They succeeding in PoF where they failed miserable in HoT.First and foremost, tons of useless mastery, tons of mastery points, tons of experience. Lots of up & downs difficulty in navigating the map.

Sad thing is, this is the best case scenario to go:

1. Core
2. Path of Fire
3. Heart of Thorns
4. LS2-5

Anet didn't correct their mistakes

[mindcircus.1506]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:Also polls on this forum always put Hot at the top of the favorite expansions.

i guess you werent there at launch. it made many people quit the ENTIRE GAME. and what kind of mmo FORCES you to revamp your character and playstyle?if its in the game, it should be viable for everything.

What the actual...?

Yes, if the game locks you into rigid templates like some MMOs do, then it makes sense for it to be viable. But with a free form system you have the opportunity to create a trash build. It's still technically viable, just trash tier.

so, what would happen if they buffed it to be GOOD? think about it....scary stuffit is only trash, because THEY WANT IT SO

You're really not thinking this through.

I am not saying that any particular trait line in GW2 is trash. Certainly, we can point to individual traits that are trash. But the whole idea of our trait system is to allow players to find synergy between traits to produce the outcomes they're looking for. What you call "forcing you to revamp your character and playstyle" is nothing more or less than that. That you produce a trash build does not mean that the system is trash.

so, will you give me 100s of gold, so i can EXPERIMENT with builds and runes at max level?The game has been spitting out stat-selectable exotic gear as "Cosmetic Rewards" left and right lately.Last years changes to rune and sigil crafting make all but some of the craziest options pretty reasonable to buy or craft.Festivals have regularly introduced rewards that purposefully lower the costs of higher priced components used in armor and weapons.The ring, amulet and backpack from Bloodstone Fen are easy enough to obtain and are stat swappable for only 100 unbound magic(for all 4 at once).An ascended amulet and earring can be had for a small amount of Karma and Eternal Ice (a currency that is ridiculously easy to gather) in Bjora.Ascended weapons via PoF collections or the Caladbolg quest are nothing but collections/story.Buildcraft and experimentation in this game to within 5-10% of "BiS" has never been cheaper and does not take 100s of gold.@battledrone.8315 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:Also polls on this forum always put Hot at the top of the favorite expansions.

i guess you werent there at launch. it made many people quit the ENTIRE GAME.

and what kind of mmo FORCES you to revamp your character and playstyle

?if its in the game, it should be viable for everything.

What? Every mmorpg with every major patch?

wrong, im still using the same builds on almost all my DC characters. 7 years in , and almost max gear rating now.same in STO. the forums always light up in rage when they try to do something like that.

Well I haven't played those 2 so I can't comment if this is viable or not but what is the point of a build then if you have the same for 7 years? They might as well just remove that part of the game if it's meant to be static forever. That is the point of the option to tailor you build, so you know, adapt it to the situation.

why would i change it , if it works ? i can kill mobs or do support...dont need more than that.Yes you do. You need to heal, mitigate damage, dodge, complete mechanics.... many things.One of the many differences between Guild Wars 2 and most other MMOs is that this game allows you to respec completely without cost any time you are out of combat. Most other MMOs attach a cost and even time sink to any kind of respec. This allows the developers to create a wider array of challenges.While there is no "wrong way" to play the game, this idea that you would never adapt or evolve your character or change your build in order to make a challenge easier is... pretty close.

[TamX.1870]

@DisabledVelociraptor.7865 said:The leap in difficulty from the personal story to heart of thorns is insane... forgive me for complaining here but this is kitten near unenjoyable.. I wish there was some kind of difficulty setting for instances because I just want to experience the story without feeling like i'm being completely crushed by everything

Fear not, you are not alone. HoT is known to burst out tears of frustration from players who enter there first times. Maps are hard to navigate and you get killed constantly. I sure hated HoT maps a lot at the beginning.

Others have told good tips for your journey. The key point is IMO that in HoT maps you can not anymore ignore things like conditions, condition cleansing, CC, evades, and most importantly, you can not anymore ignore the mob mechanics (what are they going to do, and what kills you). Once you start gaining HoT masteries and experience from mobs, it starts feeling easier and easier every day.

And at one day you will suddenly see that you have fell in love to HoT content. Trust me, that day will come :)

[Mad Queen Malafide.7512]

My perspective is that the core GW2 game doesn't do a good job at preparing a player for harder content the way GW1 did. The core game content is pretty casual friendly, and at no point is the player taught the more complex enemy behaviors (or how to deal with them), nor build synergies, or the importance of stun breaks, control skills and condition removal. There is also a lack of missions in the core game that require the player to master these things. I think it is safe to say that the majority of players run builds that could be rated between bad and sub-par. But you can finish the core game just fine while running a poor build and wearing poor gear. So Heart of Thorns in that respect is a big step up in difficulty for players running poor builds and in gear that is not endgame ready. To the game's credit, its combat system does have plenty of depth to it. But most players get by without ever learning the depth of the combat system.

GW1 had missions such as the ascension trials (which taught the pvp format with monsters), The Doppleganger fight (which taught the player to adapt their build), or Thunderhead Peak (which taught communication and team work), or Glint's Lair (which taught players how to deal with environmental effects). These missions would stop players dead in their tracks and force them to get better at the game, before progressing further. It also helped that monsters in GW1 used the same skills as players (for the most part). So encountering monsters with their own skillbars taught the players a lot about how to make their own build. GW2 doesn't have an equivalent teaching tool.

While the game definitely needs more challenging content, there is not a learning curve in place to teach players how to deal with these new challenges. Perhaps the Silver Wastes, Dry Top, and to some extend Fractals could be seen as a teaching tool. But the game doesn't guide the players towards these areas before they try their hand at Heart of Thorns. I think Path of Fire is a more friendly experience in this regard, but perhaps also less challenging once again. There's also a few enemies in Heart of Thorns that do a poor job at telegraphic their attacks in my opinion, causing a lot of frustrating insta-down situations. All these factors combined could make the expansion pretty harsh for casual players.

[Evilek.5690]

@DisabledVelociraptor.7865 said:The leap in difficulty from the personal story to heart of thorns is insane... forgive me for complaining here but this is kitten near unenjoyable.. I wish there was some kind of difficulty setting for instances because I just want to experience the story without feeling like i'm being completely crushed by everything

Adaptation is way, HoT is allready nerfed and is easy compared to the release. MMO is not solo game and when you need help PM me in game (only EU).

[Jimbru.6014]

Some tips for new players dealing with HoT, and with the open world in general.

• First and foremost, you are coming into a game that is pushing toward eight years old. Virtually everything about this game that you could possibly want to know is in some kind of guide or video someplace on the internet. Use those resources shamelessly to make your life easier than we old timers had it when we were first learning the game.
• The "meta" (as most GW2 players use that term) is based almost entirely on test dummy theorycraft, using glass cannon builds for max DPS in raids. But raiding is just one mode of the game; what works in a full group with organized support is very often not what works in the rest of the game, especially when you're lost and alone in Tangled Depths surrounded by Chak and Mordrem. Therefore, don't limit yourself or ignore the many other options available to you just because they're not "meta".
• Personally, I found that the game in general and open PVE in particular, became much easier and more enjoyable when I started ignoring the "meta" and took a cue from WvW to make my characters less squishy. My main (Ranger) does both PVE and WvW in full Marauder gear using a modified roamer build. My healing Scourge supports strike missions in full Magi gear with over 30K HP, because a dead healer can't heal. My open world Mirage wears full Rabid gear with Undead runes; she has like 3K Toughness and 2K condi damage and can outmaneuver and/or outlast virtually anything. My Guardian wears a mix of Marauder and Valkyrie gear; he has the same HP as a base warrior and can still hit 99.5% crit self buffed. The list goes on. Sacrificing one level of your DPS to add three levels to your survivability is a good thing in most modes of the game, and you shouldn't hesitate to do that even if it's not "meta".

[Mad Queen Malafide.7512]

@"Jimbru.6014" said:

• Personally, I found that the game in general and open PVE in particular, became much easier and more enjoyable when I started ignoring the "meta" and took a cue from WvW to make my characters less squishy. My main (Ranger) does both PVE and WvW in full Marauder gear using a modified roamer build. My healing Scourge supports strike missions in full Magi gear with over 30K HP, because a dead healer can't heal. My open world Mirage wears full Rabid gear with Undead runes; she has like 3K Toughness and 2K condi damage and can outmaneuver and/or outlast virtually anything. My Guardian wears a mix of Marauder and Valkyrie gear; he has the same HP as a base warrior and can still hit 99.5% crit self buffed. The list goes on. Sacrificing one level of your DPS to add three levels to your survivability is a good thing in most modes of the game, and you shouldn't hesitate to do that even if it's not "meta".

This is fantastic advise. Too many people run a meta build that they found on the internet, without having the knowledge to stay alive with such a build, or having the survivability for open world PVE. While high dps is absolutely important, it is good to balance offense and defense. You need a bit of both. It is really important to be able to quickly cleanse conditions and break stuns, and you need to be able to keep yourself alive without the aid of someone else. Use the meta to learn from other people's builds, but keep experimenting with your own builds. Also, do not underestimate the power of runes and sigils. Build synergy is everything.

Especially in Heart of Thorns, you will encounter opponents that can deliver a stun at a very unfortunate moment, while also spamming conditions like crazy. You need to adapt your build to deal with this. Unlike the core game, positioning and dodging are pretty important in HoT. There are a lot of attacks that you absolutely want to avoid. Also keep in mind that there are a lot of opponents in HoT that are meant to be fought by multiple players. Where as in the core game a hero challenge could be easily solood, HoT has a lot of these that will destroy you if you don't have the help of other players.

Also stay away from that green poison gas that is found on some maps, unless you have the mastery to deal with it.

[Gizmo.8623]

Hello,

IMO the problem is in general how easy is classic GW2. You can beat 5-8 or more monsters at once just standing in place yawning. Every boss in personal story is like walk in the park.I remember 4-5 years ago it was way harder. Now I was just bored doing personal main story. There was no challenge at all. You just attack groups of monsters who run at you and can't do anything to you. But they have HP pools which you need to deplete. And every mission was the same in this context.

After I went to HoT it was a different experience and a lot better! Monsters at last do something, have different skills which harm you, every monster has a role, you need to learn, observe their attack patterns, use second hand for moving! It really was/is a relief. Now GW2 PvE feels good. Every boss is interesting.

And what we have in classical places - Shatterer. You pew pew and he dies. You only need big enough number of pew pew-ing players. Tequatl - the same. Elemental - the same. Destroyer, Maw, Worm, Behemoth. You just go there, use basic attack, sometimes you dodge big red circle and that's that. Sometimes you also revive someone who must have went for a cup of tea or something and didn't press the dodge button.

Imo personal story should be redesigned to have a bigger difficulty curve. But it also would require to redesign a lot of monsters to be like HoT's ones - to have attack patterns, not only melee or ranged. Especially in Orr it was so frustrating - you meet 1-2, sometimes 3 monsters which do nothing and you need to defeat them . You walk 50 meters and repeat. Then boss, who does nothing or a little less nothing.

Zhaitan mission was the biggest dissapointment. "Hey! Look! A 200 meters behemots who... stan still and throw one worm at your ship at a time". Oh, the horror!"Oh! Look! A defensive towers/catapults which defend Orr and render full scale attack impossible! They are so important that Zhaitan need to defend it with like 5 monsters. And then the Maw came which you needed to feed". And last fight - guy just flies around, roars, shits 1-2 mobs at you and then hugs his tower and falls from sadness that the biggest treat he was supposed to be is such a pushover for one person.

You just pew pew from cannons and it dies. Ppl learn that and come to HoT where things are different and A LOT BETTER. Here you need to move, to use all your potential to survive because there are monsters who can literally 1-shot you (i'm looking at you snipers!). And it's great! Sometimes you really going to get killed in fights!

I agree that the difference is big but the problem is NOT in HoT's bigger difficulty but in lowest possible classic difficulty.

[Soulus.4308]

There is a difficulty increase when jumping straight from the end of the core story into the start of the HoT story and are expected to play smarter with your defenses, though as people have already said the difficulty has been toned down since its release. And between HoT and PoF, particularly with HP nodes, the difficulty drops even further as you can pretty much do all the HP nodes in PoF solo while there are some in HoT that require you have help. You get used to it as you play more and you learn what the enemies do but it does expect you to have optimized your build somewhat and play smarter as opposed to the core story.

[ShinigamiPL.4086]

OP, if u dont mind to skip some part you can either go PoF before HoT or at least start PoF and unlock raptor. It should make things little easier. You can also 'skip' story part - just run around PoF maps for HP and unlock at least 1 spec.

[maddoctor.2738]

@battledrone.8315 said:so, will you give me 100s of gold, so i can EXPERIMENT with builds and runes at max level?

Changing traits and skills doesn't require gold. And getting the gold needed to experiment with new builds is easy provided you play the game

[mindcircus.1506]

@Sinful Mustache.3589 said:There is no best build or best class for everything in the game. Some classes have much more sustain. Like crazy tough weaver, which can solo facetank group content or Hot Hero PointsEvery class has a build or two that can do this.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:so, will you give me 100s of gold, so i can EXPERIMENT with builds and runes at max level?

Changing traits and skills doesn't require gold. And getting the gold needed to experiment with new builds is easy provided you play the game

You don't understand. The guy is talking like reaching 80 is an achievement, despite "playing" the game for years. This is the perspective of a player who doesn't really play the game much and yet would like it to be tailored to his every whim. Ignore.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

I will add this to the deluge of advice as well, as i know I'm not the only one who has or still does this on these maps: ask for some help. It seems simple enough, but too many times I've seen someone struggling with a thing when running out there and I'd stop and ask if they wanted a hand with x or y and they seemed to breathe a sigh of relief once we partied up and I'd run through some areas of the map with them while giving them pointers. Its like they knew they were struggling but didn't think to see if someone was willing to help on the map, and while I totally understand the wanting to play open world content by yourself at times, HoT maps in particular were really geared for playing with others in many spots.

[Etria.3642]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:so, will you give me 100s of gold, so i can EXPERIMENT with builds and runes at max level?

Changing traits and skills doesn't require gold. And getting the gold needed to experiment with new builds is easy provided you play the game

You don't understand. The guy is talking like reaching 80 is an achievement, despite "playing" the game for years. This is the perspective of a player who doesn't really play the game much and yet would like it to be tailored to his every whim. Ignore.

Agreed as I haven't seen them respond to the helpful comments, instead overreacting after someone bites on their "give me gold" bait.

[battledrone.8315]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:so, will you give me 100s of gold, so i can EXPERIMENT with builds and runes at max level?

Changing traits and skills doesn't require gold. And getting the gold needed to experiment with new builds is easy provided you play the game

You don't understand. The guy is talking like reaching 80 is an achievement, despite "playing" the game for years. This is the perspective of a player who doesn't really play the game much and yet would like it to be tailored to his every whim. Ignore.

where did i say that? i have always said, that this game has one of the best levelling experiences in the businessif they had made more of the same, then we wouldnt be in this mess.this is why they couldnt beat wow: blizzard always made content for ALL player categoriesback in the old days, at leasti was okay with paying a share for raids and pvp, as long as they made some content for me too

[battledrone.8315]

@"Gizmo.8623" said:Hello,

IMO the problem is in general how easy is classic GW2. You can beat 5-8 or more monsters at once just standing in place yawning. Every boss in personal story is like walk in the park.I remember 4-5 years ago it was way harder. Now I was just bored doing personal main story. There was no challenge at all. You just attack groups of monsters who run at you and can't do anything to you. But they have HP pools which you need to deplete. And every mission was the same in this context.

After I went to HoT it was a different experience and a lot better! Monsters at last do something, have different skills which harm you, every monster has a role, you need to learn, observe their attack patterns, use second hand for moving! It really was/is a relief. Now GW2 PvE feels good. Every boss is interesting.

And what we have in classical places - Shatterer. You pew pew and he dies. You only need big enough number of pew pew-ing players. Tequatl - the same. Elemental - the same. Destroyer, Maw, Worm, Behemoth. You just go there, use basic attack, sometimes you dodge big red circle and that's that. Sometimes you also revive someone who must have went for a cup of tea or something and didn't press the dodge button.

Imo personal story should be redesigned to have a bigger difficulty curve. But it also would require to redesign a lot of monsters to be like HoT's ones - to have attack patterns, not only melee or ranged. Especially in Orr it was so frustrating - you meet 1-2, sometimes 3 monsters which do nothing and you need to defeat them . You walk 50 meters and repeat. Then boss, who does nothing or a little less nothing.

Zhaitan mission was the biggest dissapointment. "Hey! Look! A 200 meters behemots who... stan still and throw one worm at your ship at a time". Oh, the horror!"Oh! Look! A defensive towers/catapults which defend Orr and render full scale attack impossible! They are so important that Zhaitan need to defend it with like 5 monsters. And then the Maw came which you needed to feed". And last fight - guy just flies around, roars, kitten 1-2 mobs at you and then hugs his tower and falls from sadness that the biggest treat he was supposed to be is such a pushover for one person.

You just pew pew from cannons and it dies. Ppl learn that and come to HoT where things are different and A LOT BETTER. Here you need to move, to use all your potential to survive because there are monsters who can literally 1-shot you (i'm looking at you snipers!). And it's great! Sometimes you really going to get killed in fights!

I agree that the difference is big but the problem is NOT in HoT's bigger difficulty but in lowest possible classic difficulty.

you do realize, that they even had to nerf the newbie zones too, right?the majority of players in a casual mmo arent gamers, they are tourists.they just want to run through pretty landscapes while they click on things.any game , that starts with the hardcore label on is automatically missing out on 90% of the market

[Linken.6345]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@"Gizmo.8623" said:Hello,

IMO the problem is in general how easy is classic GW2. You can beat 5-8 or more monsters at once just standing in place yawning. Every boss in personal story is like walk in the park.I remember 4-5 years ago it was way harder. Now I was just bored doing personal main story. There was no challenge at all. You just attack groups of monsters who run at you and can't do anything to you. But they have HP pools which you need to deplete. And every mission was the same in this context.

After I went to HoT it was a different experience and a lot better! Monsters at last do something, have different skills which harm you, every monster has a role, you need to learn, observe their attack patterns, use second hand for moving! It really was/is a relief. Now GW2 PvE feels good. Every boss is interesting.

And what we have in classical places - Shatterer. You pew pew and he dies. You only need big enough number of pew pew-ing players. Tequatl - the same. Elemental - the same. Destroyer, Maw, Worm, Behemoth. You just go there, use basic attack, sometimes you dodge big red circle and that's that. Sometimes you also revive someone who must have went for a cup of tea or something and didn't press the dodge button.

Imo personal story should be redesigned to have a bigger difficulty curve. But it also would require to redesign a lot of monsters to be like HoT's ones - to have attack patterns, not only melee or ranged. Especially in Orr it was so frustrating - you meet 1-2, sometimes 3 monsters which do nothing and you need to defeat them . You walk 50 meters and repeat. Then boss, who does nothing or a little less nothing.

Zhaitan mission was the biggest dissapointment. "Hey! Look! A 200 meters behemots who... stan still and throw one worm at your ship at a time". Oh, the horror!"Oh! Look! A defensive towers/catapults which defend Orr and render full scale attack impossible! They are so important that Zhaitan need to defend it with like 5 monsters. And then the Maw came which you needed to feed". And last fight - guy just flies around, roars, kitten 1-2 mobs at you and then hugs his tower and falls from sadness that the biggest treat he was supposed to be is such a pushover for one person.

You just pew pew from cannons and it dies. Ppl learn that and come to HoT where things are different and A LOT BETTER. Here you need to move, to use all your potential to survive because there are monsters who can literally 1-shot you (i'm looking at you snipers!). And it's great! Sometimes you really going to get killed in fights!

I agree that the difference is big but the problem is NOT in HoT's bigger difficulty but in lowest possible classic difficulty.

you do realize, that they even had to nerf the newbie zones too, right?the majority of players in a casual mmo arent gamers, they are tourists.they just want to run through pretty landscapes while they click on things.any game , that starts with the hardcore label on is automatically missing out on 90% of the market

Nah they nerfed the newbie zones since level 80 people were running around framing the easy low level champions collecting bags and flaming insults+ bad attitudes when people dared to kill a champ out of the zerg rotation.Not becouse it was hard if its as you say then why are the champion bandits still there?

[mindcircus.1506]

@Linken.6345 said:Not becouse it was hard if its as you say then why are the champion bandits still there?Totally unrelated to the discourse but I test my open world builds against these things all the time.I love that they are there.But omg I can't tell you how many time's I've gone to one to pick a fun little fight and found 1 , 2, sometimes 3 level-appropriate newbies hopelessly over their heads because of the damage they dish out and speed of attacks. Ever seen one of those Legendaries when there isn't 3 or more power-crept fully decked out 80's around to carry the fight?I love the Bandit Bounties. I'm just not sure they belong in Queensdale where you were dancing with a cow 20 minutes earlier.

[crepuscular.9047]

didnt HoT got nerfed already?

[maddoctor.2738]

@battledrone.8315 said:where did i say that? i have always said, that this game has one of the best levelling experiences in the businessif they had made more of the same, then we wouldnt be in this mess.this is why they couldnt beat wow: blizzard always made content for ALL player categoriesback in the old days, at leasti was okay with paying a share for raids and pvp, as long as they made some content for me too

Which they haven't gotten since the 3 maps of Orr. Which were the last leveling experiences in the game, it has been level 80 content for the next 8 years. So they haven't released content for you in 8 years yet you are still here. But the comment you failed to respond to still stand, you don't need gold to experiment with builds as swapping traits and skills doesn't require any kind of payment so your argument about gold is moot.

[maddoctor.2738]

@battledrone.8315 said:you do realize, that they even had to nerf the newbie zones too, right?the majority of players in a casual mmo arent gamers, they are tourists.they just want to run through pretty landscapes while they click on things.any game , that starts with the hardcore label on is automatically missing out on 90% of the market

Doesn't really explain why when the game went free to play conversions were abysmal. If the core game was so good, it would force more players to convert and open up more clients for the expansion, but truth is that it didn't. Even NCSoft said so, so while the game was revolutionary and awesome in 2012, in 2015 it wasn't anymore as good. Players that want to just click on things can go play a walking simulator