Is heart of thorns meant to feel this hard as a new player?

[Asum.4960]

@Skiravor.1257 said:Honestly, i hear this alot from new players before they quit.

Does not matter, the veterans want it more difficult, they are not interested in new players or growing the game.

Because that makes sense.

The failure there wasn't with HoT, but the core game and leveling experience (in which ~95% of mobs are possible to kill with a single button press) not doing an adequate job to teach players how to play the game, causing them to hit a wall in HoT, not that HoT was or is difficult.Yet HoT was a giant leap in game and content quality and remains the most engaging open world content to this day, even after the unfortunate nerfs.

Although tbf, if max level expansion content makes people quit the game because it expects it's players to actually learn and play the game, rather than just auto attacking/randomly pressing buttons in random gear with random Traits, then while still ofc unfortunate that's also not that much of a loss if the alternative to that is for the game to be forever stuck in tutorial like zones that don't ever dare to challenge anyone in any way, just hoping to never upset anyone.Which frankly, would most likely make a lot more people quit in boredom way sooner than any badly designed difficulty spike.

I feel pretty confident in saying HoT retained a lot more players for a lot longer (despite dreadful content draught) than the easy and unengaging (besides one time Story playthrough) PoF did.

The problem of GW2 is not that it has some hard content (if anything it has way to little of that), it's that the vast majority of the content is so easy it doesn't teach game mechanics or require any skill whatsoever, with very little if any natural progression between the two to bridge the gap.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Asum.4960 said:The problem of GW2 is not that it has some hard content (if anything it has way to little of that), it's that the vast majority of the content is so easy it doesn't teach game mechanics or require any skill whatsoever, with very little if any natural progression between the two to bridge the gap.

To be honest Season 1 and Season 2 are great bridges for Heart of Thorns, but one is no longer available and the other requires separate purchase. I know Dry Top and Silverwastes are available without purchase of Season 2, but the open world version is blob/zerg content so it hardly teaches anything, plus the heavy nerfs to Dry Top/Silverwastes mobs mean they are no longer any threat or challenge. But the story instances in Season 2 can be quite exciting and challenging, effectively bridging the gap between core game and the heart of thorns (at least the story). The way they monetize the game is the largest barrier for new players, which is ironic given how the no-sub, buy to play nature was for a long time the best thing about it.

[flog.3485]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Skiravor.1257 said:Honestly, i hear this alot from new players before they quit.

Does not matter, the veterans want it more difficult, they are not interested in new players or growing the game.

Because that makes sense.

The failure there wasn't with HoT, but the core game and leveling experience (in which ~95% of mobs are possible to kill with a single button press) not doing an adequate job to teach players how to play the game, causing them to hit a wall in HoT, not that HoT was or is difficult.Yet HoT was a giant leap in game and content quality and remains the most engaging open world content to this day, even after the unfortunate nerfs.

Although tbf, if max level expansion content makes people quit the game because it expects it's players to actually learn and play the game, rather than just auto attacking/randomly pressing buttons in random gear with random Traits, then while still ofc unfortunate that's also not that much of a loss if the alternative to that is for the game to be forever stuck in tutorial like zones that don't ever dare to challenge anyone in any way, just hoping to never upset anyone.Which frankly, would most likely make a lot more people quit in boredom way sooner than any badly designed difficulty spike.

I feel pretty confident in saying HoT retained a lot more players for a lot longer (despite dreadful content draught) than the easy and unengaging (besides one time Story playthrough) PoF did.

The problem of GW2 is not that it has some hard content (if anything it has way to little of that), it's that the vast majority of the content is so easy it doesn't teach game mechanics or require any skill whatsoever, with very little if any natural progression between the two to bridge the gap.

+10000 thisPersonally, looking back at HoT early days, the only reason I was able to go through it without much difficulty and no complaints, is because I played some PvP. I certainly did not learn much in core by playing open world and dungeons.

[Atrastella.4309]

Honestly, I find HoT the most enjoyable so far ^^' I've played for a bit over a month and while I did complain about the maps and difficulty in the beggining I got used to it while playing. And now I spend most of my time on those maps and will most likely run the story again soon. So it might be hard, but that's the reason it's fun :D

[Henry.5713]

They lowered the difficulty of the Core content at some point to make it a pleasant experience for new players. I probably would have quit the game right away if it had been that easy from the start but people are different, I guess.

[kharmin.7683]

@Asum.4960 said:

I feel pretty confident in saying HoT retained a lot more players for a lot longer (despite dreadful content draught) than the easy and unengaging (besides one time Story playthrough) PoF did.

I'm not sure that this is a valid point if it doesn't take into consideration the reward structures of HoT and PoF. To me, it has always appeared that the players will migrate toward the zones that offer the best rewards.

[Tails.9372]

@kharmin.7683 said:To me, it has always appeared that the players will migrate toward the zones that offer the best rewards.

Which is exactly how it is, remember Istan?

[kharmin.7683]

@Tails.9372 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:To me, it has always appeared that the players will migrate toward the zones that offer the best rewards.

Which is exactly how it is, remember Istan?

Yep. That's kinda my point. ;)

[Tyncale.1629]

Here is my fast recipe for a fun and easy experience when exploring HoT;

1 level 80 necromancer

120 Heropoints, to get all the necessary Scourge Traits up to Trail of Anguish. These points can be gathered doing the easypeasy Hero Challenges in Path of Fire. You only need the Raptor without any masteries for these first 12. You will get the Raptor automatically when you start your PoF story and finish the first instance. Do these 12 Hero Challenges(will give closest PoI or WP location):Crystal Oasis: [&BB8KAAA=] [&BCEKAAA=] [&BFwKAAA=] [&BFsKAAA=] [&BCYKAAA=]Desert Highlands: [&BPAKAAA=] [&BGoKAAA=]Elon Riverlands: [&BFMKAAA=] (the HP all the way to the right edge of the map, not the one closer by, you need springer for that one) [&BCgKAAA=] (left of this WP) [&BG4KAAA=] (again left of this PoI) [&BNEKAAA=] (south of this poi) [&BGcKAAA=] (to the SE of this WP, you can reach this by approaching it from the water, not the quicksand, and stand on the small protruding crop of land to the left of the hp and then jump to the HP with your raptor. Or else:The Desolation: HP between Acrid Springs and Sulfur Quarry, in the top left corner of the map, near the Vista. It looks as if you can not get on land where the water of the Spillway borders the Acrid Springs area, but you can, just keep jumping up the shore at the lowest point and you will succeed.

Buy all 6 pieces of Ogdens Armor on the TP: Condition damage, Power, Vitality. Total 2 gold 80 silver. Excellent poor man's choice. Leave it at that, or spend some more on one Carrion Amulet(40s), 2x Fang of Tequatl (2x 35s) and maybe 2x Carrion Ring (2x 1g)Buy a scepter and a Torch (equip Torch when you get your first 30 Scourge HP) with the same stats.Armor Runes: buy the cheap Runes of the Lich. Condition duration, Vitality, Condition damage and an extra Minion!Weapon Runes: Go supercheap for Rune of Agony (20% Bleed duration) and Rune of Demons (20% Torment duration) or go expensive and buy Bursting and Malice runes.

Build:1) Death Magic: Flesh of the Master, Necromantic Corruption, Unholy Sanctuary(to avoid that lethal blow or use Death Nova for extra Minions).2) (more damage)Curses: Insidious Disruption, Terror, Lingering Curse(use Parasitic Contagion for more Healing)2) (more defense/selfheal) Blood Magic: Quickening Thirst, Vampiric Presence, Transfusion3) Reaper then Scourge (as soon as you get 30 HP): Fell Beacon, Sadistic Searing, Demonic Lore.On the skill bar: Summon Bloodfiend, Trail of Anguish(more AoE, Stability, extra damage from your shades), Summon Bone Fiend, Summon Shadow Fiend, Summon Flesh Golem.

Summon your minions (they will keep you alive) and sick em, keep spamming those Sand Shades and Bleed and Torments on everything. I truly find this a simple to use, Fire and Forget combo with good AoE that will hold up in HoT.

One thing: you will still need to use Dodge. This game uses Dodge. Dodge is important. In HoT even more!

Disclaimer: I prefer this build over a Power Reaper because it is Fire and Forget and delivering the AoE damage is easier. You do not have to decide where to hit your enemies, your minions and Shades will do their work no matter what. I know Power Reaper is more DPs and more Survivability. I just do not like to keep track of my Enemies and keep positioning myself. :)

[TwiceCookedPorkins.8940]

I don't mean this as snark or as an attack or anything but...

You need to learn to play.

HoT is more difficult, but it's not impossibly difficult. Or even horribly difficult. Take it as a learning experience. Learn enemy patterns. Learn about conditions and CC. Learn how to avoid damage. Explore your trait trees and find a build that works for you.

If you stick with it you'll eventually learn, just as the rest of us did. And it's very rewarding once you do.

(Also want to plug Spellbreaker for people that have Path of Fire. This Elite alone is probably the single best spec for learning the mechanics of the game.)

[Asum.4960]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:

I feel pretty confident in saying HoT retained a lot more players for a lot longer (despite dreadful content draught) than the easy and unengaging (besides one time Story playthrough) PoF did.

I'm not sure that this is a valid point if it doesn't take into consideration the reward structures of HoT and PoF. To me, it has always appeared that the players will migrate toward the zones that offer the best rewards.

While players at large certainly naturally gravitate towards rewards to a large degree it's imo also partially a symptom of the issue/design failure, as since the majority of the content isn't rewarding to play in of itself (as gameplay experience), most of what players have left is to just migrate to whatever is most rewarding in a monetary sense to get any sense of fulfillment, as they are not growing as players.

My biggest problem with LW and Open World in general is that it's almost purely reward driven, running on achievement checklists or economy breaking farms, rather than being about engaging gameplay first and being able to stand on it's own in that regard - which is then merely supplemented by a reward structure on top of that to retain long-term engagement.

GW2 with it's design has trained and further enforced the natural inclination of much of it's playerbase to foremost seek out monetary rewards, rather than to seeking out engaging and fun gameplay experiences to grow on as players and to have fun in, which then hopefully also "just so happen to be" somewhat rewarding in a monetary sense.

Looking at much of the complaints and fears after the recent EU server rollback what I most frequently read was "I did x achievement/farm and I really don't want to have to do that again".

While losing progress ofc always sucks, a lot of players unfortunately don't seem to be playing engaging content with which they are just having fun with in the moment and which they would enjoy to play again (or even did that once), rather they are running on a treadmill of easy and bland but rewarding content, hoping for those earned things to matter someday somehow.

Just speaking for myself, when I go back to OW as a player since launch who doesn't really care about rewards anymore it's just for fun and that usually means HoT, doing things like soloing the few challenging Hero Points which somewhat survived the nerfs on quirky builds, despite not being at all rewarding monetarily.

[kharmin.7683]

@Asum.4960 I agree with you. My point was to argue that the popularity of HoT isn't only due to the challenge level of the maps. There are other factors which may account for it.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Roche.7491 said:Sad thing is, this is the best case scenario to go:

1. Core
2. Path of Fire
3. Heart of Thorns
4. LS2-5

Anet didn't correct their mistakes

Yes because Ember Bay was such a hard map/story. And Desolation/Vabbi (especially near the brand) were so much easier to play than Auric Basin. You can't really put the entirety of both expansions and every living world story in the same tier. There is lots of variation within the same content, and Heart of Thorns content itself (on alts for example) isn't harder than Path of Fire once you get mounts unlocked and navigation isn't an issue.

[arooboo.5143]

@"Jimbru.6014" said:

• Personally, I found that the game in general and open PVE in particular, became much easier and more enjoyable when I started ignoring the "meta" and took a cue from WvW to make my characters less squishy. My main (Ranger) does both PVE and WvW in full Marauder gear using a modified roamer build. My healing Scourge supports strike missions in full Magi gear with over 30K HP, because a dead healer can't heal. My open world Mirage wears full Rabid gear with Undead runes; she has like 3K Toughness and 2K condi damage and can outmaneuver and/or outlast virtually anything. My Guardian wears a mix of Marauder and Valkyrie gear; he has the same HP as a base warrior and can still hit 99.5% crit self buffed. The list goes on. Sacrificing one level of your DPS to add three levels to your survivability is a good thing in most modes of the game, and you shouldn't hesitate to do that even if it's not "meta".

I think I need to take a page out of your book with my Mirage as I die A LOT in the open world. :/ I've played Mesmer since launch (albeit with years of breaks mixed in), but it's been so miserable to use for things lately (and I only play open world). I had followed the suggestion of using Viper gear, but that's probably for people who actually know what they're doing. I'm not quite ready to give up on the class, so I may give your gearing a shot to see if that extra toughness helps out a bit.

My struggle with re-gearing or doing a new build on my own is that i don't understand the finer nuances to all the various stats and skills. Not blaming the game at all, I totally appreciate what variety that brings, but sadly I've always struggled with games that give a ton of options. Because of that, I tend to rely fairly heavily on build suggestions and other player's ideas.

As an aside, I just started taking my Necro out for the first time since boosting it 5 years ago, and the difference between the two is night and day. That bloody class can survive so much, it's almost not fair. I know Necro/Reaper is generally touted as easy-mode for open world, but honestly it's been such a refreshing break for me. I took it out into the HoT zones last night to work on clearing maps, and managed to solo several of the HPs by myself. I'm sure those are super easy for people who have actual skill, but that's not my group of people. lol. It felt really quite rewarding for me though, and that's what counts :)

[AliamRationem.5172]

@arooboo.5143 said:

@"Jimbru.6014" said:

• Personally, I found that the game in general and open PVE in particular, became much easier and more enjoyable when I started ignoring the "meta" and took a cue from WvW to make my characters less squishy. My main (Ranger) does both PVE and WvW in full Marauder gear using a modified roamer build. My healing Scourge supports strike missions in full Magi gear with over 30K HP, because a dead healer can't heal. My open world Mirage wears full Rabid gear with Undead runes; she has like 3K Toughness and 2K condi damage and can outmaneuver and/or outlast virtually anything. My Guardian wears a mix of Marauder and Valkyrie gear; he has the same HP as a base warrior and can still hit 99.5% crit self buffed. The list goes on. Sacrificing one level of your DPS to add three levels to your survivability is a good thing in most modes of the game, and you shouldn't hesitate to do that even if it's not "meta".

I think I need to take a page out of your book with my Mirage as I die A LOT in the open world. :/ I've played Mesmer since launch (albeit with years of breaks mixed in), but it's been so miserable to use for things lately (and I only play open world). I had followed the suggestion of using Viper gear, but that's probably for people who actually know what they're doing. I'm not quite ready to give up on the class, so I may give your gearing a shot to see if that extra toughness helps out a bit.

My struggle with re-gearing or doing a new build on my own is that i don't understand the finer nuances to all the various stats and skills. Not blaming the game at all, I totally appreciate what variety that brings, but sadly I've always struggled with games that give a ton of options. Because of that, I tend to rely fairly heavily on build suggestions and other player's ideas.

As an aside, I just started taking my Necro out for the first time since boosting it 5 years ago, and the difference between the two is night and day. That bloody class can survive so much, it's almost not fair. I know Necro/Reaper is generally touted as easy-mode for open world, but honestly it's been such a refreshing break for me. I took it out into the HoT zones last night to work on clearing maps, and managed to solo several of the HPs by myself. I'm sure those are super easy for people who have actual skill, but that's not my group of people. lol. It felt really quite rewarding for me though, and that's what counts :)

Try this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAc+ZlRwQYSsEmJW0P6vOA-zRJYkRHfZkTKkZFo3sso0G-e

Don't get too hung up on the gear/runes/sigils. If you want to run this build on the cheap, just use Dire exotic stats (condi/vitality/toughness) with undead runes, stamina/corruption sigils. Torment runes are another good choice as this adds a ton of healing on offense, especially running axe, but they are more expensive.

[arooboo.5143]

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:

Try this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAc+ZlRwQYSsEmJW0P6vOA-zRJYkRHfZkTKkZFo3sso0G-e

Don't get too hung up on the gear/runes/sigils. If you want to run this build on the cheap, just use Dire exotic stats (condi/vitality/toughness) with undead runes, stamina/corruption sigils. Torment runes are another good choice as this adds a ton of healing on offense, especially running axe, but they are more expensive.

Thank you! I'll give that a shot when I finish up with work. :)

[Asum.4960]

@arooboo.5143 said:As an aside, I just started taking my Necro out for the first time since boosting it 5 years ago, and the difference between the two is night and day. That bloody class can survive so much, it's almost not fair. I know Necro/Reaper is generally touted as easy-mode for open world, but honestly it's been such a refreshing break for me. I took it out into the HoT zones last night to work on clearing maps, and managed to solo several of the HPs by myself. I'm sure those are super easy for people who have actual skill, but that's not my group of people. lol. It felt really quite rewarding for me though, and that's what counts :)

There is a bit of a misconception going on about Necro and it appearing to be easy mode compared to other professions.

Similar or even better easy mode can be achieved with pretty much every other profession, it's just that for Necro, no matter how little you understand about build craft, you don't have to think to opt into the extra surviveability via gear or Traits but (and that's imo pretty bad design) you also can't opt out of it for other benefits if you wish so as it's baked into the profession mechanic, which in turn always held Necro back from performing well in PvE endgame as well as making it a nightmare to balance in PvP.

Basically Necro builds are just harder to mess up on a surface level since so much power of the profession is loaded into the Shroud mechanic at the detriment of the entire rest of the professions kit, which also makes it much less malleable than other professions, which is kind of a shame.

Glad you are enjoying it though!Just keep in mind you can make some crazy stuff work to trivialize OW content with the other professions too should you enjoy those more for whatever reason.

[arooboo.5143]

@Asum.4960 said:There is a bit of a misconception going on about Necro and it appearing to be easy mode compared to other professions.

Similar or even better easy mode can be achieved with pretty much every other profession, it's just that for Necro, no matter how little you understand about build craft, you don't have to think to opt into the extra surviveability via gear or Traits but (and that's imo pretty bad design) you also can't opt out of it for other benefits if you wish so as it's baked into the profession mechanic, which in turn always held Necro back from performing well in PvE endgame as well as making it a nightmare to balance in PvP.

Basically Necro builds are just harder to mess up on a surface level since so much power of the profession is loaded into the Shroud mechanic at the detriment of the entire rest of the professions kit, which also makes it much less malleable than other professions, which is kind of a shame.

Glad you are enjoying it though!Just keep in mind you can make some crazy stuff work to trivialize OW content with the other professions too should you enjoy those more for whatever reason.

I will admit my sample size of professions is incredibly lacking - it's basically always just been Mesmer.....and now the Reaper. Have tried a few others over the years, but always go back to mesmer - it's my baby even though I'm complete balls at it ;)

Necro is one of those jobs that has never appealed to me aesthetically (not a fan of dead/half-flesh pets/ghoulish things), but I was getting desperate for something that would let me actually survive in my journeys and that class gets recommend quite frequently. It's definitely far more fool-proof than Mesmer, which is handy, but I am still determined to get my Mesmer functional and kicking bum out in the OW.

I do still have one free character slot open that I test things out on. Other classes I have are an old Elementalist that I keep around only for rewards, and a low-level ranger. I think the simpler/less-twitchy jobs click better for me personally, although kudos to those who can handle the more challenging. For what it's worth, I do only stick to OW content. I'm not bringing that badness into raids. ;)

[mindcircus.1506]

@Asum.4960 said:

@"arooboo.5143" said:As an aside, I just started taking my Necro out for the first time since boosting it 5 years ago, and the difference between the two is night and day. That bloody class can survive so much, it's almost not fair. I know Necro/Reaper is generally touted as easy-mode for open world, but honestly it's been such a refreshing break for me. I took it out into the HoT zones last night to work on clearing maps, and managed to solo several of the HPs by myself. I'm sure those are super easy for people who have actual skill, but that's not my group of people. lol. It felt really quite rewarding for me though, and that's what counts :)

There is a bit of a misconception going on about Necro and it appearing to be easy mode compared to other professions.Only it isn't a misconception at all.Open World there is no class that comes close to the "sit back and chill" gameplay that Minionmancers have. Reaper is a complete beast and offers tremendous QoL that other classes just don't have.While Necro doesn't have a place in top end PvP, many classes don't. Teapot has proven over and over again that the "problem" with Necro in endgame PvE is a community perception issue of sheeple chasing the speedrun meta without having the skills to back it up.

[Asum.4960]

@arooboo.5143 said:

@Asum.4960 said:There is a bit of a misconception going on about Necro and it appearing to be easy mode compared to other professions.

Similar or even better easy mode can be achieved with pretty much every other profession, it's just that for Necro, no matter how little you understand about build craft, you don't have to think to opt into the extra surviveability via gear or Traits but (and that's imo pretty bad design) you also can't opt out of it for other benefits if you wish so as it's baked into the profession mechanic, which in turn always held Necro back from performing well in PvE endgame as well as making it a nightmare to balance in PvP.

Basically Necro builds are just harder to mess up on a surface level since so much power of the profession is loaded into the Shroud mechanic at the detriment of the entire rest of the professions kit, which also makes it much less malleable than other professions, which is kind of a shame.

Glad you are enjoying it though!Just keep in mind you can make some crazy stuff work to trivialize OW content with the other professions too should you enjoy those more for whatever reason.

I will admit my sample size of professions is incredibly lacking - it's basically always just been Mesmer.....and now the Reaper. Have tried a few others over the years, but always go back to mesmer - it's my baby even though I'm complete balls at it ;)

Necro is one of those jobs that has never appealed to me aesthetically (not a fan of dead/half-flesh pets/ghoulish things), but I was getting desperate for something that would let me actually survive in my journeys and that class gets recommend quite frequently. It's definitely far more fool-proof than Mesmer, which is handy, but I am still determined to get my Mesmer functional and kicking bum out in the OW.

I do still have one free character slot open that I test things out on. Other classes I have are an old Elementalist that I keep around only for rewards, and a low-level ranger. I think the simpler/less-twitchy jobs click better for me personally, although kudos to those who can handle the more challenging. For what it's worth, I do only stick to OW content. I'm not bringing that badness into raids. ;)

Wooden Potatoes did a good series on solid beginner friendly general PvE builds for all Professions, as well as going into some basic build crafting principles for open world (trying to achieve 100% crit chance, maintaining Might and Vuln etc.).

You can check that out

.

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@arooboo.5143 said:As an aside, I just started taking my Necro out for the first time since boosting it 5 years ago, and the difference between the two is night and day. That bloody class can survive so much, it's almost not fair. I know Necro/Reaper is generally touted as easy-mode for open world, but honestly it's been such a refreshing break for me. I took it out into the HoT zones last night to work on clearing maps, and managed to solo several of the HPs by myself. I'm sure those are super easy for people who have actual skill, but that's not my group of people. lol. It felt really quite rewarding for me though, and that's what counts :)

There is a bit of a misconception going on about Necro and it appearing to be easy mode compared to other professions.Only it isn't a misconception at all.Open World there is no class that comes close to the "sit back and chill" gameplay that Minionmancers have. Reaper is a complete beast and offers tremendous QoL that other classes just don't have.While Necro doesn't have a place in top end PvP, many classes don't. Teapot has proven over and over again that the "problem" with Necro in endgame PvE is a community perception issue of sheeple chasing the speedrun meta without having the skills to back it up.

I didn't say Necro doesn't have a place in PvP or PvE.I personally main Necro in PvP @ Plat 2-3 and play it in Raids and Strikes whenever I can, trying to convince more people to give it a shot as things like Scourge frequently shine in especially mechanically dense fights, as opposed to DPS golem scenarios.Still, it's frequently not accepted, it's raw DPS potential is lacking, it's "heal" spec is carried by a single Trait that if any profession had something similar Necro would be disregarded, it's condi spec is largely carried by a single Utility skill that if any other profession had a similar mechanic Necro would be discarded, it doesn't have access to good boon support in any shape or form, etc.

As much as I love Necro since the GW1 days even, it's design issues in GW2 are severe and almost too many to list.

And yes, while it's fantastic in Open World, plenty other things like Power Renegade for example can easily outperform Reaper in burst, sustained dps, cleave, CC, multiple forms of utility as well as sustain, by pretty much only pressing 3 buttons.

[Incantus.8549]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@"Cuks.8241" said:Also polls on this forum always put Hot at the top of the favorite expansions.

i guess you werent there at launch. it made many people quit the ENTIRE GAME. and what kind of mmo FORCES you to revamp your character and playstyle?if its in the game, it should be viable for everything.

What the actual...?

Yes, if the game locks you into rigid templates like some MMOs do, then it makes sense for it to be viable. But with a free form system you have the opportunity to create a trash build. It's still technically viable, just trash tier.

so, what would happen if they buffed it to be GOOD? think about it....scary stuffit is only trash, because THEY WANT IT SO

You're really not thinking this through.

I am not saying that any particular trait line in GW2 is trash. Certainly, we can point to individual traits that are trash. But the whole idea of our trait system is to allow players to find synergy between traits to produce the outcomes they're looking for. What you call "forcing you to revamp your character and playstyle" is nothing more or less than that. That you produce a trash build does not mean that the system is trash.

so, will you give me 100s of gold, so i can EXPERIMENT with builds and runes at max level?

100s of gold? How about you maybe learn the game, Metabattle, Snowcrow and the PvP lobby provides all the testing grounds a person need to get a feel for if a build would work or not. Traits and skills operate differently between PvE and PvP, yes, but that is where a build editor tool comes in, several are right on google. I have crafted several ascended sets, but not after extensive theorycrafting of my builds and testing in the PvP area. Sometimes if I was truly unsure I'd nab some exotic gear and take it for a spin, and a full set of exotic gear is not a hefty price tag at all.

The true depth of this game lies in the builds that you can fiddle together, everyone has a different playstyle in games, even if we maybe dont know it, some builds will work perfectly for you and others just dont match you as a person and your playstyle, this game offers the freedom to find the right build for the player. The mediocrity comes from those who just copy paste others builds and expect to be as good as them.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Asum.4960 said:The problem of GW2 is not that it has some hard content (if anything it has way to little of that), it's that the vast majority of the content is so easy it doesn't teach game mechanics or require any skill whatsoever, with very little if any natural progression between the two to bridge the gap.This issue is made worse by the open approach to the Story content.Don't like the action in Season Three Ep1? Quit and start another Episode.Is Confessor's End too hard for you? That's cool, just start Ep 5....or 6 if you want... it doesn't matter.Just about everything in this game that tutorializes it's systems or incentivizes improvement can just be ignored. A player who struggles with Hearts and Minds can just quit and start PoF and lose nothing but achievements.There isn't even a solid reason to complete the Dodge tutorial in the starter zones.

As @"maddoctor.2738" points out there is a more gradual ramp in the game's difficulty than just jumping from "press 1 to slay Zhaitan" to the cold glass of water in your face that is Verdant Brink.But the only reason many people play S2 (other than those who enjoy the story) are those who grind out the Core Tyria Mastery points from it. The game doesn't ask me to complete this content or even recommend it. If I don't play through a Living World Episode and the next one releases, there's nothing telling me to go back and do the one I missed, there's no reason.... the new hotness is in my face and says "Play ME".Did they teach something in that episode I didn't do? Doesn't matter.

The real culprit here is the business model.If a developer cannot gate progress behind a skill check because anyone who logs in gets the next episode for free, they are flat out unable to build progression. If I tutorialize Dodgejumping in an episode, I can only do skill checks for that in the relevant episode. I have no way to ensure in future episodes that players will have had access to the previous skills learned.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Linken.6345 said:Not becouse it was hard if its as you say then why are the champion bandits still there?Because those are not meant for new players, but only for veterans. Notice, by the way, how popular (or rather how unpopular) those champs are.

[voltaicbore.8012]

@maddoctor.2738 said:I believe it's mostly because those mobs appeared only in Dry Top and Silverwastes, which were mostly done in big squads, so those in in-vulnerabilities were hardly felt by a lot of players. They saw mobs getting killed and thought they were doing something to them, when it reality they weren't doing anything.

@DisabledVelociraptor.7865, the point that @maddoctor.2738 makes here is supremely, supremely important. I would highly advise you to take it to heart.

We hear in the forums, every time a new player confronts an experience that is initially beyond their skill level, that such-and-such content is too hard. In most cases this is a misconception, and it stems from a design choice in this game that I believe stunted GW2's overall potential.

The design choice I refer to is the fact that for many group encounters, just the efforts of just the top few players is enough to carry a ton of deadweight players to success. The devs themselves recently confirmed that the top few players are often putting out 10 times the damage of others in the group.

This is an admirable design choice, and I believe it makes GW2 very unique amongst comparable titles. For the top players carrying everyone, this allows them to still succeed and gain rewards from a group event despite the majority of the group not performing well. For the people being carried, this design obviously allows them to reap rewards from and gain exposure to content that is well beyond their ability. Overall this kind of thing fits very well with GW2's wider "everyone wins" scenario. Players share resource nodes, xp from kills, and a whole host of other things without even forming a party, so GW2 largely avoids the zero-sum cutthroat competition that characterizes a lot of other games.

The cost of having this kind of "everyone wins" design is that the game has almost no opportunity to let new players know exactly how they're doing and how to improve. You go from the laughably easy personal story to the open-world story format of HoT, and suddenly nothing works anymore. Unless they take a personal interest in getting better at combat, there's a high probability new players have absolutely no clue how good or bad they are until they meet a challenge that stops them cold. And why would they ever know? The game never really pushed them hard enough to reveal their weaknesses.

As for why I believe this stunted GW2's potential, I admittedly don't have an objectively measurable basis for that. I just get the feeling that a game that enables so much of its playerbase to just be bad at the game itself runs the risk of retaining players with a shallower attachment to the game, while slowly bleeding out veterans that have little gameplay reason to stay interested in a game that often caters to an extremely low skill level.

[Tails.9372]

If I don't play through a Living World Episode and the next one releases, there's nothing telling me to go back and do the one I missed, there's no reason.... the new hotness is in my face and says "Play ME".Which in and of itself is a problem caused by the reward structure, let's say one LW episode introduces a map with a meta that rewards you with a cosmetic infusion you really want to have. Now you have 2 options to actually get the thing:

option A:

You farm the content in question and hope that you "win the lottery" and acquire the item by doing the meta.

or option B:

You farm whatever has the best time to gold ratio and just buy the thing from the TP.

^ This is why it's generally so easy to ignore most of the content. It also hurts the longevity of the content in question and this problem is also unique to OW. If you want a Raid related Infusion you can just do the raid and get lucky or work your way towards it by collecting the related currency. Meanwhile players can farm OW metas like AB for almost half a decade without even seeing a single drop while also swimming in useless map currencies which could have been used to solve the issue. It's almost baffling how A-Net can get one thing right for content A while also screwing up the same thing for content B but I guess the devs. working on raids are not the same who work on OW content.