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An interesting tidbit from the MMO hype of the day


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So, today Peon (500k subscribers) posted an updated summary about AoC, hyping that game up, which caught the eyes of other big streamers or online content creators (Asmon 1.5m followers / 65k live viewers, Summit 5.5m followers / 30k live viewers, Shroud 7m followers, etc.), doing reaction videos and the AoC devs were quick to hop onto the hype and deliver some interviews to those outlets, spawning more videos and streams for that game in the past 24 hrs. Now, what was interesting was not how good AoC looked in the summary, that isn't really relevant to this forum.

What was rather interesting was that at two times the communities errupted in spam about GW2.

Those two times were when they spoke about:

  1. The fluidity of combat systems
  2. Large scale PvP (WvW)

That strikes me as rather intriguing that so many of those players, of other games, are saying the same things we are saying in the WvW communities: That GW2's strengths are the fluidity of the combat system and how that translates into group PvP. It also goes to suggest that there still is alot of untapped potential here being squandered.

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No doubt about it. GW2 has an excellent combat system. It's easily one of its best features, although it shows moments of brilliance in other designs from time to time. You certainly won't find classes designed like Weaver, maps and gliding like Heart of Thorns, or mounts like PoF over in WoW! But you also won't find lame non-trinity instanced PvE with boring encounter design and faceroll single-difficulty modes. You won't find them ghosting their players for the better part of a year while producing nothing. And what the actual kitten is up with WvW? Hello? Anybody home!?

It's frustrating to have a game with combat this good just kind of going to waste. I play it anyway because it has plenty of charm and the aforementioned excellent combat, but I really wish this were a better game with a company behind it that actually cared to invest in their product. It's a damn shame, really.

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GW2 players are often cynical because this is the game we play and there are many ways we feel it could be improved. Some of our opinions are more informed and substantiated than others. Quite frequently folks who play gw2 will talk about how other games are doing cherry-picked aspects "better" (in their opinion) without acknowledging an active appreciation for what this game does better and often with a bias caused by discontent. To be fair, nobody starts a "How x can be improved" thread with all of the things this game does right.

This is an investment for us. Not just financially but emotionally. We could be using our free time to play other games but we choose to play this one. Why? Well, I'm sure the fluidity of combat systems and fun/successful large scale PvP (WvW) contributes to that choice. Perhaps it's just the community. I don't think you'll catch too many players here suggesting the core elements of the gameplay are anything less than good.

The general consensus is that this gamemode has a lot of untapped potential and folks who are invested in the gamemode are tired of it constantly getting put to the side of the development team's goals in favor of other projects. Procrastination and lack of evolution have many of the players in a rut. It is a legitimate concern. Wvw is collecting dust. That doesn't take away from what the game does well, and if you're a newcomer to the game a lot of the things older players will see as stale will be new to you.

tl;dr Gw2 is a good game but wvw has grown stale.

~ Kovu

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AoC is dead on arrival - it has a $15 a month subscription fee. Will probably get a large following the first couple of months due to hype true, then it'll die out within 6 months. GW2 really isnt its competition there, WoW is and yeah... you know... like trying to topple a building with your face. Even if its an incredibly good game, the sub fee will instantly stop it going viral, sort of speak.

Regarding the fluidity, well thats because GW2 has always gotten the fundamentals right (throughout both expansions) even if its not the most "advanced" game around feature wise. Many newer game sort of focus on the latter so they can "compete" and forget the former. For me personally it can be incredibly tiny things that annoy me, most notably the care and attention to animations, how they feel connected to the 3D world. Just something as simple as a characters legs moving too slow or too fast compared to the percieved speed of your character can instantly take me out of a game.

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@"Dawdler.8521" said:AoC is dead on arrival - it has a $15 a month subscription fee. Will probably get a large following the first couple of months due to hype true, then it'll die out within 6 months. GW2 really isnt its competition there, WoW is and yeah... you know... like trying to topple a building with your face. Even if its an incredibly good game, the sub fee will instantly stop it going viral, sort of speak.

Regarding the fluidity, well thats because GW2 has always gotten the fundamentals right (throughout both expansions) even if its not the most "advanced" game around feature wise. Many newer game sort of focus on the latter so they can "compete" and forget the former. For me personally it can be incredibly tiny things that annoy me, most notably the care and attention to animations, how they feel connected to the 3D world. Just something as simple as a characters legs moving too slow or too fast compared to the percieved speed of your character can instantly take me out of a game.

I was curious, so I looked up AoC and checked out one of the gameplay videos they had up. Wow! That game looks absolutely awful! The whole time the mage-like character is just standing there casting really slow animations with huge telegraphs and I don't see any dodging or anything. I think I am spoiled by GW2. I need that fast, mobile combat with active avoidance. Standing in place with long, slow channels and clunky, slow animations is just not cutting it after GW2!

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Gw2 has been brought up by Asmons and Shrouds and Summits chat before, heck just a day or two ago on Summit's while he was on ESO because he really wanted a game with open world pvp and suggestions including gw2 came up. None of them takes gw2 seriously, twitch chat mostly thinks gw2 is a joke, Asmon 100% prefers wow over everything else even though I think he could have fun in wvw as a warrior that he loves to play, Shroud and Summit now play ESO together, Shroud also loves wow hence the love for Eso gearing and progression, something gw2 highly lacks.

I really don't think any of them knows about the fun battles you can get in wvw, from roaming to zerging.Kind of a shame no real big streamer will give the game a chance, then again with the neglect of wvw... why bother.

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That strikes me as rather intriguing that so many of those players, of other games, are saying the same things we are saying in the WvW communities: That GW2's strengths are the fluidity of the combat system and how that translates into group PvP. It also goes to suggest that there still is alot of untapped potential here being squandered.

Like what they did with the newest map (a flavor of WVW) I wonder if in the future we are going to get more wvw inspired and maybe even content that directly plugs us into wvw; newer maps I suppose. It can be hard to change old content so maybe newer content about "going into the Mists" will be the wvw that wvw players have been requesting. Now THAT would be smart and intuitive content.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:AoC is dead on arrival - it has a $15 a month subscription fee. Will probably get a large following the first couple of months due to hype true, then it'll die out within 6 months. GW2 really isnt its competition there, WoW is and yeah... you know... like trying to topple a building with your face. Even if its an
incredibly
good game, the sub fee will instantly stop it going viral, sort of speak.

Regarding the fluidity, well thats because GW2 has always gotten the fundamentals right (throughout both expansions) even if its not the most "advanced" game around feature wise. Many newer game sort of focus on the latter so they can "compete" and forget the former. For me personally it can be incredibly tiny things that annoy me, most notably the care and attention to animations, how they feel connected to the 3D world. Just something as simple as a characters legs moving too slow or too fast compared to the percieved speed of your character can instantly take me out of a game.

I was curious, so I looked up AoC and checked out one of the gameplay videos they had up. Wow! That game looks absolutely awful! The whole time the mage-like character is just standing there casting really slow animations with huge telegraphs and I don't see any dodging or anything. I think I am spoiled by GW2. I need that fast, mobile combat with active avoidance. Standing in place with long, slow channels and clunky, slow animations is just not cutting it after GW2!

I am spoiled as well, literally ANY game I play from now on has to be mobile while casting IDGAF. Standing still for every spell (maybe on a few spells, I'll compromise) is heinous and I won't accept it.

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@"diomache.9246" said:AoC is Age of Conan? This game is still a thing?No, Ashes of Creation.

I dont really doubt that it could be good, but if you look through the entire LazyPeon video you will quickly come to realize one thing - it's too complicated and involves player attacks on player investment that will just turn most people off after it's happened one too many times, or it will grind everything to a halt because no one wants to loose it all so they wont even begin. While the video doesnt outright say it, you can tell that things such as player driven cities and the caravan PvP system will heavily emphesize having a large and active guild not for the "fun" of it but to dominate the plebs - the "fun" depends on how willing others are to try to provide content for those dominating guilds. And for a subscription fee... only a small subset of the hardcore crowd will like being constantly put in that situation. The rest will probably just go have 30m of fun in another game. If WoW was the only existing competition and you had to choose between that and AoC then sure, fantastic. I'd probably pick the later going by the information we see. But that's not really reality.

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@"AliamRationem.5172" said:No doubt about it. GW2 has an excellent combat system. It's easily one of its best features, although it shows moments of brilliance in other designs from time to time. You certainly won't find classes designed like Weaver, maps and gliding like Heart of Thorns, or mounts like PoF over in WoW! But you also won't find lame non-trinity instanced PvE with boring encounter design and faceroll single-difficulty modes.

In many ways, it's the very same "excellent combat system" that also produces the things you dislike.

In the end, the action combat system, and the freeform build system are, at the same time, both one of the strongest points of GW2, but also one of the things dragging it down. That's because only a small minority could ever truly make full use of those systems - and you can't design the whole game like GW2 around such a small minority. Thus, the game, in fear of driving most of its players away, ends up being designed in a way that is not able to fully utilize the full potential those systems offer.

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I wouldn't get too hyped by a Peon video. He has a slight habit of getting overexcited about things then just a few months later being totally over it. He's done this over and over with a whole bunch of MMOs at this point. His videos are great and I am a fan but I have noticed this.

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@"Dawdler.8521" said:AoC is dead on arrival - it has a $15 a month subscription fee. Will probably get a large following the first couple of months due to hype true, then it'll die out within 6 months. GW2 really isnt its competition there, WoW is and yeah... you know... like trying to topple a building with your face. Even if its an incredibly good game, the sub fee will instantly stop it going viral, sort of speak.

we will see. while also beeing sceptic, i don´t have the audacity to predict the future, especially whit "online products".if they deliver on promised features AND the gameplay will be fun there is probaply a good market with dissatisfied mmo-players (like myself)

it also will not have no box price. which is in my optinion a good marketing/buisness strat. 15€ to try a game for a month is quite a good deal.im really looking forward to a sub game, can´t stand these cash shop games that try every aspect of psychology to make you spend (more)money anymore.yes, while beeing "not that bad", gw2 does this aswell.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:In many ways, it's the very same "excellent combat system" that also produces the things you dislike.

In the end, the action combat system, and the freeform build system are, at the same time, both one of the strongest points of GW2, but also one of the things dragging it down. That's because only a small minority could ever truly make full use of those systems - and you can't design the whole game like GW2 around such a small minority. Thus, the game, in fear of driving most of its players away, ends up being designed in a way that is not able to fully utilize the full potential those systems offer.

That is a rather pessimistic view on it and it is also a pretty interesting view to put forward in a place like this. People involved with WvW at some depth all tends to be quite insightful when it comes to how the combat system impact players of different skill- and experience levels. I find that to be to be a pretty good thing in WvW and an interesting topic with that, a topic that concerns quite alot of WvW players on different discords across the communities here. What are good starter builds, what are the skill floors, what can be expected from other players and what is asking too much etc.

There is quite alot of potential progress among builds and there are quite alot of good builds and ways to play in WvW that isn't particularily difficult to pull off yet can be impactful throughout basic, intermediary and expert levels of experience. If anything, I'd say the mode rather wrestles with recent dominant perspectives on things being too difficult when in fact they aren't very difficult at all and it is more about motivating players to dare trying to do things and learn through setbacks or for leaders of players to learn the value of organisation.

Overall, I'd consider that more a strength of the combat system (progression, span, appropriate difficulty for the context of what WvW is) rather than that the combat system is particularily difficult, complex or advanced. I've mentioned that many times in the past when people bring up present-gen MMO competitors like BDO or AA whose combat systems may be more action-oriented than GW2's: GW2's system scales better to WvW-type combat. That only goes to support the topic at hand that the combat systems in eg., BDO or AA may fit sPvP equally well or better while GW2's system still outshine them once your scale to something larger. The system really shines in the 5-25 scale and still does quite nicely at 50+.

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@"Dawdler.8521" said:GW2 really isnt its competition there, WoW is and yeah... you know... like trying to topple a building with your face. Even if its an incredibly good game, the sub fee will instantly stop it going viral, sort of speak.

Ya that sub fee and "WoW style play" really knee capped FF14

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@Substance E.4852 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:GW2 really isnt its competition there, WoW is and yeah... you know... like trying to topple a building with your face. Even if its an
incredibly
good game, the sub fee will instantly stop it going viral, sort of speak.

Ya that sub fee and "WoW style play" really knee capped FF14Ok so then there are another competitor. Another game they have to beat in terms of gameplay and features. That's worse.

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@diomache.9246 said:AoC is Age of Conan? This game is still a thing?

I used to love that game, years ago, but now, it's not a thing. I had the same reaction you did at first but it took me a few seconds to realize they were talking about Ashes of Creation. I don't really expect it to be big, but it'll probably make a decent splash at launch.

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your biggest advantage over other MMOs is combat system

literally just shit at spvp and wvw community for years, keep bumping devs into gemstore things

ESL leaves, most gw1 pvp scene veterans and gw2 pioneers either leave the game or turn into casual-mode

instead of adding spvp and wvw content - keep going further into living story, that is shit and no1 really cares about it except some boomers

????

What, you want me to add some kind of profit here? lol.

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@"Widmo.3186" said:

  1. your biggest advantage over other MMOs is combat system
  2. literally just kitten at spvp and wvw community for years, keep bumping devs into gemstore things
  3. ESL leaves, most gw1 pvp scene veterans and gw2 pioneers either leave the game or turn into casual-mode
  4. instead of adding spvp and wvw content - keep going further into living story, that is kitten and no1 really cares about it except some boomers
  5. ????
  6. What, you want me to add some kind of profit here? lol.Considering that for practically any MMORPG game PvE players heavily outweight PvP ones, and that holds true even for games with core features that are supposed to revolve around PvP, i'd say that the biggest flaw here would be point 1, not 2-4. If your main advantage over other MMOs is the combat system, then you should make an MMO that is all about combat, not a MMORPG game. That's because combat system alone won't be enough to bring a lot of players from the target group MMORPGs aim for. And the players for whom that migh be enough would rather go for games that are tailored for their interest more (so, some kinds of pure PvP ones).

And as for your point 4, i'm very sorry to inform you, that the number of players that do in fact care about the story even now is almost certainly much higher than the number of players that were interested in GW2's PvP modes at their height. So, even if it's true, that, as you claim, "no1 really cares" about it, all it would mean is that for PvP it's much, much worse than that.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Widmo.3186" said:
  1. your biggest advantage over other MMOs is combat system
  2. literally just kitten at spvp and wvw community for years, keep bumping devs into gemstore things
  3. ESL leaves, most gw1 pvp scene veterans and gw2 pioneers either leave the game or turn into casual-mode
  4. instead of adding spvp and wvw content - keep going further into living story, that is kitten and no1 really cares about it except some boomers
  5. ????
  6. What, you want me to add some kind of profit here? lol.Considering that for practically any MMORPG game PvE players heavily outweight PvP ones, and that holds true even for games with core features that are supposed to revolve around PvP, i'd say that the biggest flaw here would be point 1, not 2-4. If your main advantage over other MMOs is the combat system, then you should make an MMO that is all about combat, not a MMORPG game. That's because combat system alone won't be enough to bring a lot of players from the target group MMORPGs aim for. And the players for whom that migh be enough would rather go for games that are tailored for their interest more (so, some kinds of pure PvP ones).

And as for your point 4, i'm very sorry to inform you, that the number of players that do in fact care about the story even now is almost certainly much higher than the number of players that were interested in GW2's PvP modes at their height. So, even if it's true, that, as you claim, "no1 really cares" about it, all it would mean is that for PvP it's much, much worse than that.

First time in the internet? Do you think that everything written here is true? Have you ever heard about overexaggerating, hyperbole or meme?Call me if you google any of those

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