Why bother designing something nobody will craft? Can anyone explain it to me?

[Substance E.4852]

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@"Pifil.5193" said:I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

Well, when you make something a rare drop, its because you want it to be a rare drop. Why bother making it craftable if you are going to make it so expensive to craft that it may as well just be a rare drop and you can just buy it from the TP.

Don't get me wrong, that it is craftable is great, but also I have probably put millions of clicks into the Mystic Forge because its setup so you need to do 10 clicks for every recipe, every time. When you have done that thousands and thousands of times, it gets tedious. Particularly when they could just add a "repeat recipe" button. Which I have made suggestion for many times. But if you read my remarks above about it being a legendary infusion etc, you'll see I do not have a dislike of crafting, the opposite actually. I would prefer

more

crafting steps for it, rather than just clicking 500 times in the forge with 5000g worth of materials.

Well for one there has been plenty of posts asking for non-rng way to get some of the other infusions. This is a case of giving what people have asked for.

If those people also meant "and it should available for as cheap as possible while remaining a rare prestige item" then they should have made that explicit as well.

Why does it need to be a rare prestige item?

because the other items are and unfortunately as with many other cases of "be careful what you ask for ...", people weren't specific enough

also because ANet decided it should be and ANet is the one making the game

It's not a hard thing to make a scaling series of infusions that become more difficult to obtain the more elaborate they are and I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy with such a system

It doesn't need to be a binary choice of "everyone has this because it's cheaper than many BLC weapons" vs "almost no one who plays this game 'casually' has this because it's traded on third party platforms for well over 10k gold"

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@"Pifil.5193" said:I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

Well, when you make something a rare drop, its because you want it to be a rare drop. Why bother making it craftable if you are going to make it so expensive to craft that it may as well just be a rare drop and you can just buy it from the TP.

Don't get me wrong, that it is craftable is great, but also I have probably put millions of clicks into the Mystic Forge because its setup so you need to do 10 clicks for every recipe, every time. When you have done that thousands and thousands of times, it gets tedious. Particularly when they could just add a "repeat recipe" button. Which I have made suggestion for many times. But if you read my remarks above about it being a legendary infusion etc, you'll see I do not have a dislike of crafting, the opposite actually. I would prefer

more

crafting steps for it, rather than just clicking 500 times in the forge with 5000g worth of materials.

Well for one there has been plenty of posts asking for non-rng way to get some of the other infusions. This is a case of giving what people have asked for.

If those people also meant "and it should available for as cheap as possible while remaining a rare prestige item" then they should have made that explicit as well.

Why does it need to be a rare prestige item?

because the other items are and unfortunately as with many other cases of "be careful what you ask for ...", people weren't specific enough

also because ANet decided it should be and ANet is the one making the game

It's not a hard thing to make a scaling series of infusions that become more difficult to obtain the more elaborate they are and I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy with such a system

It doesn't need to be a binary choice of

"everyone has this because it's cheaper than many BLC weapons"

vs

"almost no one who plays this game 'casually' has this because it's traded on third party platforms for well over 10k gold"

Perfect example.

It's a collection, content and a material/gold sink in one.

Imagine a precursor type crafting experience where you do;Frost Legion Recruit I - Collection and some mats. You get the v1.0 infusion.Frost Legion Recruit II - Collection and some mats inc the 1st infusion. You get the v2.0 infusion.Frost Legion Recruit III - Collection and some mats inc the 2nd infusion. You get the v3.0 infusion.Frost Legion Recruit IV - Collection and some mats inc the 3rd infusion. You get the v4.0 and final infusion.

Total cost somewhere around 500g. Koda's Warmth is around 400g to craft.

[Substance E.4852]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@"Pifil.5193" said:I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

Well, when you make something a rare drop, its because you want it to be a rare drop. Why bother making it craftable if you are going to make it so expensive to craft that it may as well just be a rare drop and you can just buy it from the TP.

Don't get me wrong, that it is craftable is great, but also I have probably put millions of clicks into the Mystic Forge because its setup so you need to do 10 clicks for every recipe, every time. When you have done that thousands and thousands of times, it gets tedious. Particularly when they could just add a "repeat recipe" button. Which I have made suggestion for many times. But if you read my remarks above about it being a legendary infusion etc, you'll see I do not have a dislike of crafting, the opposite actually. I would prefer

more

crafting steps for it, rather than just clicking 500 times in the forge with 5000g worth of materials.

Well for one there has been plenty of posts asking for non-rng way to get some of the other infusions. This is a case of giving what people have asked for.

If those people also meant "and it should available for as cheap as possible while remaining a rare prestige item" then they should have made that explicit as well.

Why does it need to be a rare prestige item?

because the other items are and unfortunately as with many other cases of "be careful what you ask for ...", people weren't specific enough

also because ANet decided it should be and ANet is the one making the game

It's not a hard thing to make a scaling series of infusions that become more difficult to obtain the more elaborate they are and I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy with such a system

It doesn't need to be a binary choice of

"everyone has this because it's cheaper than many BLC weapons"

vs

"almost no one who plays this game 'casually' has this because it's traded on third party platforms for well over 10k gold"

Perfect example.

It's a collection, content and a material/gold sink in one.

Imagine a precursor type crafting experience where you do;Frost Legion Recruit I - Collection and some mats. You get the v1.0 infusion.Frost Legion Recruit II - Collection and some mats inc the 1st infusion. You get the v2.0 infusion.Frost Legion Recruit III - Collection and some mats inc the 2nd infusion. You get the v3.0 infusion.Frost Legion Recruit IV - Collection and some mats inc the 3rd infusion. You get the v4.0 and final infusion.

Total cost somewhere around 500g. Koda's Warmth is around 400g to craft.

Honestly, even the cost of this one has cratered pretty hard and it does give a nice value to the shards that can be sold by those like me who don't want the infusion

It will climb back up after the map gets replaced by a new farm but it will also lose a lot of it's novelty appeal soon enough as well since it's pretty much the winter's heart infusion combined with the blue space infusion visually

My beef is more with things like the khan infusion that doesn't fuel content like the bee or egg sack but is also so cosmically rare that I will never be able to get it making it a null element of the game

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

Its just like every other MMO, where the belief lies that players need near-unattainable goals to have a sense they don't have everything and keep playing and/or paying.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

Its just like every other MMO, where the belief lies that players need near-unattainable goals to have a sense they don't have everything and keep playing and/or paying.

I don't see how that's a thing. It's not like people know the Bugatti Veyron exists so they keep participating in society knowing they will never have one, rather than just give up and end it all. 99% of players are going to look at the cost and just go "nope". It essentially doesn't exist in the game for them.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

Its just like every other MMO, where the belief lies that players need near-unattainable goals to have a sense they don't have everything and keep playing and/or paying.

I don't see how that's a thing. It's not like people know the Bugatti Veyron exists so they keep participating in society knowing they will never have one, rather than just give up and end it all. 99% of players are going to look at the cost and just go "nope". It essentially doesn't exist in the game for them.

Exactly, you know the Veyron exist, will never get one, yet it was made to be sold even though not many people could get one. So it has a certain prestige (at least to some).

As long as there's enough people who do, its a success.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

Its just like every other MMO, where the belief lies that players need near-unattainable goals to have a sense they don't have everything and keep playing and/or paying.

I don't see how that's a thing. It's not like people know the Bugatti Veyron exists so they keep participating in society knowing they will never have one, rather than just give up and end it all. 99% of players are going to look at the cost and just go "nope". It essentially doesn't exist in the game for them.

Exactly, you know the Veyron exist, will never get one, yet it was made to be sold even though not many people could get one. So it has a certain prestige (at least to some).

As long as there's enough people who do, its a success.

But that's not the reasoning you gave in your 1st post, you made out like people will leave the game if nigh-unattainable items do not exist. Plus, the Veyron is made for profit and as an engineering exercise. An infusion in a game that requires in-game materials is not prestigious in any way. Mate, there is zero prestige in anything in this game, except perhaps titles from PvP since everything else can be merely bought either through grinding it out or buying it with real cash and there is nothing that exists in the game that you can't buy with a month's work IRL so it's not like its a block of land, a house or a nice car or something.

So, there's no good reason to lock it behind a huge paywall of materials since that does not generate profit for ANet. If its a gold sink they wanted then they could just have made the potions available from a Svanir NPC for 1g each. If they wanted an ecto sink, they could have just made the same Svanir NPC take ectos in trade as well as gold.If the reason behind making it expensive is any of these reasons, then making it significantly cheaper would pull far more gold and materials out of the economy because far more people would make it. Most of these "prestige" things do not even pull much gold from the economy through TP taxes either because they are traded on other sites to get around the TP taxes specifically.

[Vancho.8750]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

Its just like every other MMO, where the belief lies that players need near-unattainable goals to have a sense they don't have everything and keep playing and/or paying.

I don't see how that's a thing. It's not like people know the Bugatti Veyron exists so they keep participating in society knowing they will never have one, rather than just give up and end it all. 99% of players are going to look at the cost and just go "nope". It essentially doesn't exist in the game for them.

Exactly, you know the Veyron exist, will never get one, yet it was made to be sold even though not many people could get one. So it has a certain prestige (at least to some).

As long as there's enough people who do, its a success.

But that's not the reasoning you gave in your 1st post, you made out like people will leave the game if nigh-unattainable items do not exist. Plus, the Veyron is made for profit and as an engineering exercise. An infusion in a game that requires in-game materials is not prestigious in any way. Mate, there is zero prestige in anything in this game, except perhaps titles from PvP since everything else can be merely bought either through grinding it out or buying it with real cash and there is nothing that exists in the game that you can't buy with a month's work IRL so it's not like its a block of land, a house or a nice car or something.

So, there's no good reason to lock it behind a huge paywall of materials since that does not generate profit for ANet. If its a gold sink they wanted then they could just have made the potions available from a Svanir NPC for 1g each. If they wanted an ecto sink, they could have just made the same Svanir NPC take ectos in trade as well as gold.If the reason behind making it expensive is any of these reasons, then making it significantly cheaper would pull far more gold and materials out of the economy because far more people would make it. Most of these "prestige" things do not even pull much gold from the economy through TP taxes either because they are traded on other sites to get around the TP taxes specifically.This infusion is a win win win for Aarenanet, people that have the money and want the infusion will get the mats, people that don't want the infusion got items to sell after each run on the meta so free gold, and the shards are sold on the TP which removes gold from the system.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

Its just like every other MMO, where the belief lies that players need near-unattainable goals to have a sense they don't have everything and keep playing and/or paying.

I don't see how that's a thing. It's not like people know the Bugatti Veyron exists so they keep participating in society knowing they will never have one, rather than just give up and end it all. 99% of players are going to look at the cost and just go "nope". It essentially doesn't exist in the game for them.

Exactly, you know the Veyron exist, will never get one, yet it was made to be sold even though not many people could get one. So it has a certain prestige (at least to some).

As long as there's enough people who do, its a success.

But that's not the reasoning you gave in your 1st post, you made out like people will leave the game if nigh-unattainable items do not exist. Plus, the Veyron is made for profit and as an engineering exercise. An infusion in a game that requires in-game materials is not prestigious in any way. Mate, there is zero prestige in anything in this game, except perhaps titles from PvP since everything else can be merely bought either through grinding it out or buying it with real cash and there is nothing that exists in the game that you can't buy with a month's work IRL so it's not like its a block of land, a house or a nice car or something.

So, there's no good reason to lock it behind a huge paywall of materials since that does not generate profit for ANet. If its a gold sink they wanted then they could just have made the potions available from a Svanir NPC for 1g each. If they wanted an ecto sink, they could have just made the same Svanir NPC take ectos in trade as well as gold.If the reason behind making it expensive is any of these reasons, then making it significantly cheaper would pull far more gold and materials out of the economy because far more people would make it. Most of these "prestige" things do not even pull much gold from the economy through TP taxes either because they are traded on other sites to get around the TP taxes specifically.This infusion is a win win win for Aarenanet, people that have the money and want the infusion will get the mats, people that don't want the infusion got items to sell after each run on the meta so free gold, and the shards are sold on the TP which removes gold from the system.

And the more people that made the infusion, the more trading that would happen on the TP and the more gold that would be removed from the system. But to get more people to make it they need to lower the cost. Lowering the cost to 10% what it is now would get far more than 10x more people to craft it and the items would be worth more on the TP due to the demand, therefore removing more gold from the system.

Edit: And a lot of these high-end items are not even traded on the TP (once they are made), they are traded through 3rd party sites to avoid the TP taxes.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

Half the arguments in this thread for the cost of this infusion have been that it's a prestigious cosmetic item and having difficult or nigh-impossible to get items is good for the game and it's a long term goal that keeps people playing.

Yet, ANet themselves have contradicted this belief (thereby confusing me further) by reducing the rank requirement to make the cosmetic Sublime legendary WvW armor. They have lowered it from R2000 to complete to R500 and that is a huge chunk of long term goal to be removing for little to no reasoning. This is like reducing the LI cost of Raid Legendary armor from 150 LI to 38LI. Or reducing the Ascended Shard of Glory requirement on PvP armor from 2400 to 600.

They just nerfed peoples long term goals and added nothing else.

[Vancho.8750]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

Its just like every other MMO, where the belief lies that players need near-unattainable goals to have a sense they don't have everything and keep playing and/or paying.

I don't see how that's a thing. It's not like people know the Bugatti Veyron exists so they keep participating in society knowing they will never have one, rather than just give up and end it all. 99% of players are going to look at the cost and just go "nope". It essentially doesn't exist in the game for them.

Exactly, you know the Veyron exist, will never get one, yet it was made to be sold even though not many people could get one. So it has a certain prestige (at least to some).

As long as there's enough people who do, its a success.

But that's not the reasoning you gave in your 1st post, you made out like people will leave the game if nigh-unattainable items do not exist. Plus, the Veyron is made for profit and as an engineering exercise. An infusion in a game that requires in-game materials is not prestigious in any way. Mate, there is zero prestige in anything in this game, except perhaps titles from PvP since everything else can be merely bought either through grinding it out or buying it with real cash and there is nothing that exists in the game that you can't buy with a month's work IRL so it's not like its a block of land, a house or a nice car or something.

So, there's no good reason to lock it behind a huge paywall of materials since that does not generate profit for ANet. If its a gold sink they wanted then they could just have made the potions available from a Svanir NPC for 1g each. If they wanted an ecto sink, they could have just made the same Svanir NPC take ectos in trade as well as gold.If the reason behind making it expensive is any of these reasons, then making it significantly cheaper would pull far more gold and materials out of the economy because far more people would make it. Most of these "prestige" things do not even pull much gold from the economy through TP taxes either because they are traded on other sites to get around the TP taxes specifically.This infusion is a win win win for Aarenanet, people that have the money and want the infusion will get the mats, people that don't want the infusion got items to sell after each run on the meta so free gold, and the shards are sold on the TP which removes gold from the system.

And the more people that made the infusion, the more trading that would happen on the TP and the more gold that would be removed from the system. But to get more people to make it they need to lower the cost. Lowering the cost to 10% what it is now would get far more than 10x more people to craft it and the items would be worth more on the TP due to the demand, therefore removing more gold from the system.

Edit: And a lot of these high-end items are not even traded on the TP (once they are made), they are traded through 3rd party sites to avoid the TP taxes.See another win for arenanet, the shards will be on the TP and players would not be able to skip it like the other infusions. I can't see anyone buying shards off anything outside the TP, "Hey,hey kids , wana buy bajilion shards in stacks of 250".

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

Its just like every other MMO, where the belief lies that players need near-unattainable goals to have a sense they don't have everything and keep playing and/or paying.

I don't see how that's a thing. It's not like people know the Bugatti Veyron exists so they keep participating in society knowing they will never have one, rather than just give up and end it all. 99% of players are going to look at the cost and just go "nope". It essentially doesn't exist in the game for them.

Exactly, you know the Veyron exist, will never get one, yet it was made to be sold even though not many people could get one. So it has a certain prestige (at least to some).

As long as there's enough people who do, its a success.

But that's not the reasoning you gave in your 1st post, you made out like people will leave the game if nigh-unattainable items do not exist. Plus, the Veyron is made for profit and as an engineering exercise. An infusion in a game that requires in-game materials is not prestigious in any way. Mate, there is zero prestige in anything in this game, except perhaps titles from PvP since everything else can be merely bought either through grinding it out or buying it with real cash and there is nothing that exists in the game that you can't buy with a month's work IRL so it's not like its a block of land, a house or a nice car or something.

So, there's no good reason to lock it behind a huge paywall of materials since that does not generate profit for ANet. If its a gold sink they wanted then they could just have made the potions available from a Svanir NPC for 1g each. If they wanted an ecto sink, they could have just made the same Svanir NPC take ectos in trade as well as gold.If the reason behind making it expensive is any of these reasons, then making it significantly cheaper would pull far more gold and materials out of the economy because far more people would make it. Most of these "prestige" things do not even pull much gold from the economy through TP taxes either because they are traded on other sites to get around the TP taxes specifically.This infusion is a win win win for Aarenanet, people that have the money and want the infusion will get the mats, people that don't want the infusion got items to sell after each run on the meta so free gold, and the shards are sold on the TP which removes gold from the system.

And the more people that made the infusion, the more trading that would happen on the TP and the more gold that would be removed from the system. But to get more people to make it they need to lower the cost. Lowering the cost to 10% what it is now would get far more than 10x more people to craft it and the items would be worth more on the TP due to the demand, therefore removing more gold from the system.

Edit: And a lot of these high-end items are not even traded on the TP (once they are made), they are traded through 3rd party sites to avoid the TP taxes.See another win for arenanet, the shards will be on the TP and players would not be able to skip it like the other infusions. I can't see anyone buying shards off anything outside the TP, "Hey,hey kids , wana buy bajilion shards in stacks of 250".

Sigh. If more people craft the infusion, more transactions will happen. Can you understand that much?

[Vancho.8750]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

Its just like every other MMO, where the belief lies that players need near-unattainable goals to have a sense they don't have everything and keep playing and/or paying.

I don't see how that's a thing. It's not like people know the Bugatti Veyron exists so they keep participating in society knowing they will never have one, rather than just give up and end it all. 99% of players are going to look at the cost and just go "nope". It essentially doesn't exist in the game for them.

Exactly, you know the Veyron exist, will never get one, yet it was made to be sold even though not many people could get one. So it has a certain prestige (at least to some).

As long as there's enough people who do, its a success.

But that's not the reasoning you gave in your 1st post, you made out like people will leave the game if nigh-unattainable items do not exist. Plus, the Veyron is made for profit and as an engineering exercise. An infusion in a game that requires in-game materials is not prestigious in any way. Mate, there is zero prestige in anything in this game, except perhaps titles from PvP since everything else can be merely bought either through grinding it out or buying it with real cash and there is nothing that exists in the game that you can't buy with a month's work IRL so it's not like its a block of land, a house or a nice car or something.

So, there's no good reason to lock it behind a huge paywall of materials since that does not generate profit for ANet. If its a gold sink they wanted then they could just have made the potions available from a Svanir NPC for 1g each. If they wanted an ecto sink, they could have just made the same Svanir NPC take ectos in trade as well as gold.If the reason behind making it expensive is any of these reasons, then making it significantly cheaper would pull far more gold and materials out of the economy because far more people would make it. Most of these "prestige" things do not even pull much gold from the economy through TP taxes either because they are traded on other sites to get around the TP taxes specifically.This infusion is a win win win for Aarenanet, people that have the money and want the infusion will get the mats, people that don't want the infusion got items to sell after each run on the meta so free gold, and the shards are sold on the TP which removes gold from the system.

And the more people that made the infusion, the more trading that would happen on the TP and the more gold that would be removed from the system. But to get more people to make it they need to lower the cost. Lowering the cost to 10% what it is now would get far more than 10x more people to craft it and the items would be worth more on the TP due to the demand, therefore removing more gold from the system.

Edit: And a lot of these high-end items are not even traded on the TP (once they are made), they are traded through 3rd party sites to avoid the TP taxes.See another win for arenanet, the shards will be on the TP and players would not be able to skip it like the other infusions. I can't see anyone buying shards off anything outside the TP, "Hey,hey kids , wana buy bajilion shards in stacks of 250".

Sigh. If more people craft the infusion, more transactions will happen. Can you understand that much?There are enough people willing to make it and enough people willing to sell the shards. It costs around 5k gold currently it is probably mid tier luxury item and the market price of the infusion adjusts around it. The price of ectos has risen cause of the demand for the infusion, i have not seen ecto get to 22 silver in years.By the looks of it allot of transaction are happening. Also Arenanet will not change recipes for something that is successfully doing its purpose as a market balancer.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

Its just like every other MMO, where the belief lies that players need near-unattainable goals to have a sense they don't have everything and keep playing and/or paying.

I don't see how that's a thing. It's not like people know the Bugatti Veyron exists so they keep participating in society knowing they will never have one, rather than just give up and end it all. 99% of players are going to look at the cost and just go "nope". It essentially doesn't exist in the game for them.

Exactly, you know the Veyron exist, will never get one, yet it was made to be sold even though not many people could get one. So it has a certain prestige (at least to some).

As long as there's enough people who do, its a success.

But that's not the reasoning you gave in your 1st post, you made out like people will leave the game if nigh-unattainable items do not exist. Plus, the Veyron is made for profit and as an engineering exercise. An infusion in a game that requires in-game materials is not prestigious in any way. Mate, there is zero prestige in anything in this game, except perhaps titles from PvP since everything else can be merely bought either through grinding it out or buying it with real cash and there is nothing that exists in the game that you can't buy with a month's work IRL so it's not like its a block of land, a house or a nice car or something.

So, there's no good reason to lock it behind a huge paywall of materials since that does not generate profit for ANet. If its a gold sink they wanted then they could just have made the potions available from a Svanir NPC for 1g each. If they wanted an ecto sink, they could have just made the same Svanir NPC take ectos in trade as well as gold.If the reason behind making it expensive is any of these reasons, then making it significantly cheaper would pull far more gold and materials out of the economy because far more people would make it. Most of these "prestige" things do not even pull much gold from the economy through TP taxes either because they are traded on other sites to get around the TP taxes specifically.This infusion is a win win win for Aarenanet, people that have the money and want the infusion will get the mats, people that don't want the infusion got items to sell after each run on the meta so free gold, and the shards are sold on the TP which removes gold from the system.

And the more people that made the infusion, the more trading that would happen on the TP and the more gold that would be removed from the system. But to get more people to make it they need to lower the cost. Lowering the cost to 10% what it is now would get far more than 10x more people to craft it and the items would be worth more on the TP due to the demand, therefore removing more gold from the system.

Edit: And a lot of these high-end items are not even traded on the TP (once they are made), they are traded through 3rd party sites to avoid the TP taxes.See another win for arenanet, the shards will be on the TP and players would not be able to skip it like the other infusions. I can't see anyone buying shards off anything outside the TP, "Hey,hey kids , wana buy bajilion shards in stacks of 250".

Sigh. If more people craft the infusion, more transactions will happen. Can you understand that much?There are enough people willing to make it and enough people willing to sell the shards. It costs around 5k gold currently it is probably mid tier luxury item and the market price of the infusion adjusts around it. The price of ectos has risen cause of the demand for the infusion, i have not seen ecto get to 22 silver in years.By the looks of it allot of transaction are happening. Also Arenanet will not change recipes for something that is successfully doing its purpose as a market balancer.

So, you don't understand? Ok.

Edit: And, ecto was 22s in Jan/Feb/March 2020

Edit again: So, I actually looked into this. Less than 180,000 Shard of Crystallized Blood of Jormag have been sold through the TP since the patch dropped. Only enough to make 7 infusions. That was two weeks ago and there is only enough supply for sale to make another 5.

Also, if you look at the buy and sell listings for Ecto, you'll see it's only gone up by 50,000 in total since the day before patch, which considering its very high trading frequency, is just possibly just natural variance and traders trying to cash in.

Hardly anyone is making this infusion.

If it were significantly cheaper to make, then a LOT more people would be doing it and there would be a LOT more demand for the Shards and ecto.

[kratan.4619]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:I'm fine with infusions being hard to get because they're obnoxious to look at for the most part. Bad enough we have those who stack them and sit in a high traffic spot to burn out people's eyes.

Honest question, is the eye burning glow a result of poor computer quality? Or is it some combination of infusions that shine like that regardless? Personally, I have never seen a single player glow like the dun, I do see a lot of infusions on their characters but I can tell they are different infusions and not one big mass of infusion effects.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@kratan.4619 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:I'm fine with infusions being hard to get because they're obnoxious to look at for the most part. Bad enough we have those who stack them and sit in a high traffic spot to burn out people's eyes.

Honest question, is the eye burning glow a result of poor computer quality? Or is it some combination of infusions that shine like that regardless? Personally, I have never seen a single player glow like the dun, I do see a lot of infusions on their characters but I can tell they are different infusions and not one big mass of infusion effects.Some combinations of effects are terrible with all graphic settings set to max. Post processing in particular can make things bad. Last week I've seen several characters that just look like a ball of bright white light with arms and legs barely sticking out. No idea how to achieve that, probably something recently added to the game that makes it possible, because I've never seen it before.

[disForm.2837]

I don't agree with your thesis that the infusion will increase in price.

Ectos: This is basically the main basic material of the game, widely used everywhere. Unlikely a rare infusion can move this market outside pent up demand for eager/rich players.Reagent: Static costs.Lodestone materials: Insignificant, barely 100g.Sand: This is trash, it was 2 coppers before the infusion, when pent up demand wane, it will be back to a few coppers.

So we are left with the shards, this is what will move the cost of the infusion up or down. There is little to do with those shards outside the infusion. Drizzlewood it's a profitable meta, so it will be farmed for gold/clovers and/or shards. As far as Drizzlewood keeps being a profitable meta, those shards will hit TP decreasing the price. Also, this infusion it's the latest shinny on the game, it will be replaced by others, decreasing demand.

I wouldn't be surprised if the infusion stabilises at 2.5k-3k in the future, which is noticeably more obtainable than the monster 12k at the beginning and even the current 4.5k price.

[OutOfOrder.3719]

What’s crazy. I think have 25,000 shards and 5,000 ectoplasm just in my bank. The thermo reagent looks like it would cost 1250 gold, which I have as well. Of course I don’t have the sand.

But it looks like I’m more than halfway to crafting that infusion that I didn’t even know about. It can be crafted if you put your mind too it :)

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

@OutOfOrder.3719 said:What’s crazy. I think have 25,000 shards and 5,000 ectoplasm just in my bank. The thermo reagent looks like it would cost 1250 gold, which I have as well. Of course I don’t have the sand.

But it looks like I’m more than halfway to crafting that infusion that I didn’t even know about. It can be crafted if you put your mind too it :)

Really?! You have 25,000 Shards of Crystallized Blood of Jormag already? Did you buy them?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:The Frost Legion Infusion.

Ok, so yes some people will, and have, crafted it.But this is just totally out of reach to the vast majority of the player base. Now, I get why rarity is fine for drops like the Chak Infusion and I'm fine with that. But for a crafted item?

How is it fine for an RNG item but not a crafted item? A crafted item means that you can work towards it slowly over time, with a guarantee that you'll get the item. RNG means you can do the activity a million times and either get the item a million times, or never. There's no guarantee. So how is the lack of a guarantee okay, but the existence of a guarantee not okay?

Also, how is the Frost Legion Infusion any different than crafting legendaries? Are legendary gear, which are expensive and crafted, not okay either?

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Even as a long term goal. 99% of players with more than 4000 hours in this game have less than 100g.

Even doing the most non-profitable activity - which is running story and only story - will have more than 100g profit over time. There might be a number of players (I wouldn't say 99% of players) with over 4k hours of game play without more than 100g at the time, but they've 100% gotten 100g in the time they've played the game.

Unless they're just sitting around roleplaying as level 2s in the main city.

[gavyne.6847]

It's for the whales, MMO's have these to let them flush their overabundance of mats and money.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:The Frost Legion Infusion.

Ok, so yes some people will, and have, crafted it.But this is just totally out of reach to the vast majority of the player base. Now, I get why rarity is fine for drops like the Chak Infusion and I'm fine with that. But for a crafted item?

How is it fine for an RNG item but not a crafted item? A crafted item means that you can work towards it slowly over time, with a

guarantee

that you'll get the item. RNG means you can do the activity a million times and either get the item a million times, or never. There's no guarantee. So how is

the lack of a guarantee

okay, but the existence of a guarantee not okay?

Also, how is the Frost Legion Infusion any different than crafting legendaries? Are legendary gear, which are expensive and crafted, not okay either?

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Even as a long term goal. 99% of players with more than 4000 hours in this game have less than 100g.

Even doing the most non-profitable activity - which is running story and only story - will have more than 100g profit over time. There might be a number of players (I wouldn't say 99% of players) with over 4k hours of game play without more than 100g

at the time

, but they've 100% gotten 100g in the time they've played the game.

Unless they're just sitting around roleplaying as level 2s in the main city.

If it was meant to be achievable by a decent percentage of the players, they could have just made the recipe for the forge 1 x Shard, 1x ecto, 1 x sand, 1 x thermo and that's it. Make that 500 times. Which would have been fine. And hundreds of people could have made it by now.

But no, they put 25,000 shards, 10,000 ectos + other stuff. If it's only meant for the whales, then RNG is perfectly acceptable. There is no guarantee that you will get the item. If people are going to work towards this over time, years, then the meta will need to be completed hundreds of thousands of times and the rate of which is only going to go down over time. For every infusion made, you need around 500 metas completed and for those people to sell the Shards. There will be a ton of people who start this, then never complete it.

Come on, you're not seriously comparing an infusion to a Legendary? Legendary gear offers the greatest QoL improvement in the game for those that like to change builds frequently, this is their real inherent value. Unlike an infusion or a skin which provides nothing.

Well, those numbers are those from GW2 Efficiency and they are the best metrics we have. If anything, I'd say that the number is even greater because gw2efficiency is more skewed to the hardcore players. My point though was not that people only have ever had 100g in the entirity of their play time, but those who only have such levels would never undertake the process of crafting this infusion regardless of the long term goal aspect, its just too far away.

@gavyne.6847 said:It's for the whales, MMO's have these to let them flush their overabundance of mats and money.Well, yes that much is obvious. But there are already tons of things worth more than most people will ever have, why not add something for the little guy?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:If it was meant to be achievable by a decent percentage of the players, they could have just made the recipe for the forge 1 x Shard, 1x ecto, 1 x sand, 1 x thermo and that's it. Make that 500 times. Which would have been fine. And hundreds of people could have made it by now.

But no, they put 25,000 shards, 10,000 ectos + other stuff. If it's only meant for the whales, then RNG is perfectly acceptable. There is no guarantee that you will get the item. If people are going to work towards this over time, years, then the meta will need to be completed hundreds of thousands of times and the rate of which is only going to go down over time. For every infusion made, you need around 500 metas completed and for those people to sell the Shards. There will be a ton of people who start this, then never complete it.

Come on, you're not seriously comparing an infusion to a Legendary? Legendary gear offers the greatest QoL improvement in the game for those that like to change builds frequently, this is their real inherent value. Unlike an infusion or a skin which provides nothing.

Well, those numbers are those from GW2 Efficiency and they are the best metrics we have. If anything, I'd say that the number is even greater because gw2efficiency is more skewed to the hardcore players. My point though was not that people only have ever had 100g in the entirity of their play time, but those who only have such levels would never undertake the process of crafting this infusion regardless of the long term goal aspect, its just too far away.

Yes, I would compare the aura infusions to legendaries. Because like legendaries, the only thing they add compared to other top stat items of that type (in this case 9/5 infusions) is special cosmetics. And whether they are RNG or crafted, their expenses are as great as legendaries.

Aura infusions are the legendaries of infusions.

One could argue that they're more of ascended infusions, but until we get infusions that freely stat change, I'll hold my argument here. And I wouldn't be surprised that certain aura infusions like the Frost Legion Infusion is given a Mystic Forge recipe to gain stat-changing abilities like the WvW and PvP legendary armor.

They're not meant to be achievable by a decent percentage of players, they're meant to be achievable by those who put time and effort into getting it.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Weren't there similar laments about the Winter's Presence Skin when it first released?I mean taking forever and high costs and such?

[Zaxares.5419]

I personally would support making cosmetic infusions easier/cheaper to acquire, and not simply because it would, admittedly, benefit me. I think that going back and introducing a crafting/achievement method for acquiring the infusions (as well as other rare skins/tonics/minis that are account bound, but only found on one map, such as the Scion weapons from Dragonfall) would also benefit the game's economy and activity. Firstly, the more infusions there are to trade on the market, the more players are going to buy and sell them, resulting in gold taken off the market via the TP tax. For any MMO, ensuring that gold sinks are sufficient to keep pace with gold supply is of paramount importance in maintaining the health of the game's economy. (I think that grey market trading is very harmful for the game's long term health, especially as it will help concentrate wealth in the hands of wealthier players by allowing them to skip the TP tax. One way we can stop this happening is by simply increasing the supply so that expensive items still fall under the game's 10k gold trading limit.)

Secondly, by giving players a way to acquire infusions via map currency would help grant longevity to some of the game's woefully abandoned maps. Right now, the current trend is that whenever a new map is released, the player base zergs onto that map, farms the skritt out of it for a few months, and then vanishes as the next map comes out and the zerg moves on. It's such a waste to have maps lying around that are barely touched, and it also makes things harder for newer players who joined in late and now can't complete map metas or difficult event chains because there's barely anyone around to do them.