Why bother designing something nobody will craft? Can anyone explain it to me?

[Pifil.5193]

I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@"Pifil.5193" said:I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

Well, when you make something a rare drop, its because you want it to be a rare drop. Why bother making it craftable if you are going to make it so expensive to craft that it may as well just be a rare drop and you can just buy it from the TP.

Don't get me wrong, that it is craftable is great, but also I have probably put millions of clicks into the Mystic Forge because its setup so you need to do 10 clicks for every recipe, every time. When you have done that thousands and thousands of times, it gets tedious. Particularly when they could just add a "repeat recipe" button. Which I have made suggestion for many times. But if you read my remarks above about it being a legendary infusion etc, you'll see I do not have a dislike of crafting, the opposite actually. I would prefer more crafting steps for it, rather than just clicking 500 times in the forge with 5000g worth of materials.

[keenedge.9675]

@"Khisanth.2948" said:https://gw2efficiency.com/account/player-statistics just add up the number NA and EU accounts which comes out to 283,548According to ANet's previous ads GW2 had something around 11 million registered accounts so GW2E represents around 2.5% of the population. Is that a big enough/good enough sample size? No idea, I am not very good with probability and statistics. :/

However the data is likely to be skewed towards more ... active/dedicated players since those are the people who are more likely to need the tools that the site provides.

Even if skewed, I believe gw2Eff is a good representation of the 'veteran' player base.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@"Pifil.5193" said:I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

Well, when you make something a rare drop, its because you want it to be a rare drop. Why bother making it craftable if you are going to make it so expensive to craft that it may as well just be a rare drop and you can just buy it from the TP.

Don't get me wrong, that it is craftable is great, but also I have probably put millions of clicks into the Mystic Forge because its setup so you need to do 10 clicks for every recipe, every time. When you have done that thousands and thousands of times, it gets tedious. Particularly when they could just add a "repeat recipe" button. Which I have made suggestion for many times. But if you read my remarks above about it being a legendary infusion etc, you'll see I do not have a dislike of crafting, the opposite actually. I would prefer

more

crafting steps for it, rather than just clicking 500 times in the forge with 5000g worth of materials.

Well for one there has been plenty of posts asking for non-rng way to get some of the other infusions. This is a case of giving what people have asked for.

If those people also meant "and it should available for as cheap as possible while remaining a rare prestige item" then they should have made that explicit as well.

[Josiah.2967]

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Katary.7096 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:I was expecting this to be a meta map reward. The video was misleading... This is just a huge gold sync, I would rather buy them in the gemstore at this point.

Since you are willing to spend gems on it, why not convert gems to gold and buy the components that way?

Post the $$$ that would cost and assume I make $100 per hour to create it. Tell me what the real cost is. This is a "minority item" that should not be advertised in marketing material for the area. I feel it was misleading.

Around $270

That was helpful! The sad part is if it went with my mains theme and looked good.... I might buy it... :-/

I would easily do it for Starlight Infusions with different colors to chose from. Guess I do not help my own cause.

[Bast.7253]

@Pifil.5193 said:I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

@Pifil.5193 said:I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

Does it? That’s much better then!

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@"Pifil.5193" said:I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

Well, when you make something a rare drop, its because you want it to be a rare drop. Why bother making it craftable if you are going to make it so expensive to craft that it may as well just be a rare drop and you can just buy it from the TP.

Don't get me wrong, that it is craftable is great, but also I have probably put millions of clicks into the Mystic Forge because its setup so you need to do 10 clicks for every recipe, every time. When you have done that thousands and thousands of times, it gets tedious. Particularly when they could just add a "repeat recipe" button. Which I have made suggestion for many times. But if you read my remarks above about it being a legendary infusion etc, you'll see I do not have a dislike of crafting, the opposite actually. I would prefer

more

crafting steps for it, rather than just clicking 500 times in the forge with 5000g worth of materials.

Well for one there has been plenty of posts asking for non-rng way to get some of the other infusions. This is a case of giving what people have asked for.

If those people also meant "and it should available for as cheap as possible while remaining a rare prestige item" then they should have made that explicit as well.

Why does it need to be a rare prestige item?

[Kameko.8314]

@Kameko.8314 said:You mean like the bs fractal god/goddess? You realize that is in game right? Instead infusion you get a title (which basically is infusion - a flaunt mechanism). You have to just take it in stride. Ir maybe that 1500+ rank in wvw. Who the kitten is going to do that? If you saw that come out now? Not many , but its there. This is gw2 like or leave

But that is totally different, it does actually give you a benefit in the game other than appearance and there is no real use for fractal relics other than buying ascended gear to salvage.

Btw, I am like r1724 in WvW ;) WvW is far more fun than grinding the North Drizzle meta 10 times a week for a year to get the shards required.

Well it is a hit and miss it seems :S. Hit that you would like the armor and want to go farm out wvw (which I hate so much). Whereas you wouldn't want to farm out for the infusion. So IF you really liked the infusion you would do the grind. If you didn't or think it was meh. Then probably pass and not grind save yourself time.

Fractals doesn't give you anything in itself other than its fun. And in the end is a grind to the god/goddess. Same with drizzlewood, you get LOTS AND LOTS of tier mats and even the shards may come valuable, but in the end of your grind you get a shiny infusion. End of fractals you get some gold. (reward wise) fractals probably yes a bit more lucrative, but if one were to actually 'farm' for fractals it could be gold or could be the title. Drizzlewood kinda the same could be the same. Either way yah, was a bad analogy but if you like the infusion go get it, if not, hold off and don't. It's much better way than a .00000000001% chance hidden behind 4 metas or a meta that gives dog shit reward (chak gerent / pinata (though the time consumption is low with that) / branded jahai boss etc)

[Cynder.2509]

When the infusion was announced I was a bit happy because I thought it was either a rare drop (good way to make money) or that finally Eternal Ice Shards will finally have a use but sadly my enthusiams was wrong. I don't bother with the infusion so that's why I always sell the the jormag shards at the end of every meta. Brings a good amount of extra money.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@"Pifil.5193" said:I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

Well, when you make something a rare drop, its because you want it to be a rare drop. Why bother making it craftable if you are going to make it so expensive to craft that it may as well just be a rare drop and you can just buy it from the TP.

Don't get me wrong, that it is craftable is great, but also I have probably put millions of clicks into the Mystic Forge because its setup so you need to do 10 clicks for every recipe, every time. When you have done that thousands and thousands of times, it gets tedious. Particularly when they could just add a "repeat recipe" button. Which I have made suggestion for many times. But if you read my remarks above about it being a legendary infusion etc, you'll see I do not have a dislike of crafting, the opposite actually. I would prefer

more

crafting steps for it, rather than just clicking 500 times in the forge with 5000g worth of materials.

Well for one there has been plenty of posts asking for non-rng way to get some of the other infusions. This is a case of giving what people have asked for.

If those people also meant "and it should available for as cheap as possible while remaining a rare prestige item" then they should have made that explicit as well.

Why does it need to be a rare prestige item?

Because something has to be.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Well, when you make something a rare drop, its because you want it to be a rare drop. Why bother making it craftable if you are going to make it so expensive to craft that it may as well just be a rare drop and you can just buy it from the TP.This way they can make it as rare a drop as the other infusions, but keep the trading price within bounds of the trading post. Seems like a clever move to me.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@"Pifil.5193" said:I fail to see why the Visage of the Khan-ur is OK because it's a drop but this is not OK because it's crafted. Just the OP's dislike of crafting showing?

Regardless, it seems to be moot as the Frost Legion Infusion also drops from the final chest after the Frost Citadel meta according to the wiki. So this seems to be another example of ArenaNet providing multiple paths to an item which is great to see!

Well, when you make something a rare drop, its because you want it to be a rare drop. Why bother making it craftable if you are going to make it so expensive to craft that it may as well just be a rare drop and you can just buy it from the TP.

Don't get me wrong, that it is craftable is great, but also I have probably put millions of clicks into the Mystic Forge because its setup so you need to do 10 clicks for every recipe, every time. When you have done that thousands and thousands of times, it gets tedious. Particularly when they could just add a "repeat recipe" button. Which I have made suggestion for many times. But if you read my remarks above about it being a legendary infusion etc, you'll see I do not have a dislike of crafting, the opposite actually. I would prefer

more

crafting steps for it, rather than just clicking 500 times in the forge with 5000g worth of materials.

Well for one there has been plenty of posts asking for non-rng way to get some of the other infusions. This is a case of giving what people have asked for.

If those people also meant "and it should available for as cheap as possible while remaining a rare prestige item" then they should have made that explicit as well.

Why does it need to be a rare prestige item?

because the other items are and unfortunately as with many other cases of "be careful what you ask for ...", people weren't specific enough

also because ANet decided it should be and ANet is the one making the game

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I'm fine with infusions being hard to get because they're obnoxious to look at for the most part. Bad enough we have those who stack them and sit in a high traffic spot to burn out people's eyes.

[Pifil.5193]

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Well, when you make something a rare drop, its because you want it to be a rare drop. Why bother making it craftable if you are going to make it so expensive to craft that it may as well just be a rare drop and you can just buy it from the TP.This way they can make it as rare a drop as the other infusions, but keep the trading price within bounds of the trading post. Seems like a clever move to me.

Exactly, a lot of people have been asking for alternate routes to obtain these kind of rewards other than being driven to black or grey markets and paying tens of thousands of gold for them.

If these weren't crafted then the TP price would be a lot higher than our is. As it is the cost of these on the TP will be controlled by the cost of the materials.

I think this is a great idea and a healthy sign that ArenaNet are going to continue along the path of providing multiple steps to these rewards.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

@"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:The Frost Legion Infusion.

Ok, so yes some people will, and have, crafted it.But this is just totally out of reach to the vast majority of the player base. Now, I get why rarity is fine for drops like the Chak Infusion and I'm fine with that. But for a crafted item? Seriously, 25,000 shards, 10,250 ecto, 12,500 Thermocatalytic Reagents and 37,500 Sand?

Now, if it's a material sink it still makes no sense to me. If it were 1/10th of the materials, then more than 10x the people would craft it at some point because it's within reach if you actually want it. But right now its over 5000g and that is only likely to go up.

Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

stuff like this is the only way to get the super rich players to drain their wallets of gold and and raise the market value of item.See: any time a S2 legendary dropped.

Additionally this falls under the same logic as precursors and legendary crafting.You want the guaranteed way to be more difficult and expensive on average then the rng way so the rng way isn't pointless.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@White Kitsunee.4620 said:

@"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:The Frost Legion Infusion.

Ok, so yes some people will, and have, crafted it.But this is just totally out of reach to the vast majority of the player base. Now, I get why rarity is fine for drops like the Chak Infusion and I'm fine with that. But for a crafted item?

Seriously, 25,000 shards, 10,250 ecto, 12,500 Thermocatalytic Reagents and 37,500 Sand?

Now, if it's a material sink it still makes no sense to me. If it were 1/10th of the materials, then more than 10x the people would craft it at some point because it's within reach if you actually want it. But right now its over 5000g and that is only likely to go up.

Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

stuff like this is the only way to get the super rich players to drain their wallets of gold and and raise the market value of item.See: any time a S2 legendary dropped.I don' see why people hoarding gold in their wallets is a problem. Excess gold is only a problem if it's actually used. The few super-rich people are not a huge part of the economy anyway. Making it achievable (and therefore more desirable) for say 10% of the population would pull more gold and materials from the economy than making it achievable for less than 0.1% of the population.

If they wanted material prices to be higher, they went about it the wrong way with the entire Drizzlewood map and meta because it crashed all the prices.

They should have made the infusion use Resonating Slivers, Congealed Putrescences, Eyes of Kormir, Tiny Venom Sacs, Tiny Fangs, Turnips, Vial of Weak Blood, Beets, Lettuce etc etc etc All these items are worthless and there are tens of millions of them. Just make an NPC that trades Shards for the cheapest 20 crafting materials on the TP.

Additionally this falls under the same logic as precursors and legendary crafting.You want the guaranteed way to be more difficult and expensive on average then the rng way so the rng way isn't pointless.But it mostly works the opposite way to that, it is cheaper to craft most of the precursors than it is to buy them. This is the case with the popular ones anyway. The RNG way isn't pointless, they are still worth a lot of gold. The RNG way isn't pointless if its more difficult to get via the guaranteed path, because like precursors, people are willing to pay for the convenience of not doing the additional steps. For example, you can craft Dusk for 300g, but there are buy orders on the TP for 600g. Same goes for legendary weapons, you can generally craft one for 500g or so less than you can buy one. They are pretty much material cost +500g for the gift of exploration and karma.

In this case, there is no crafting to do though, no quests or collections. It's just 500 clicks in the forge with a lot of materials. So I'd say the RNG value of the infusion on the TP will be very close to the material cost, which right now is about 4400g.

Yes, it's coming down, but that is more than likely because most people realized they will never be able to make it and just sell off the shards as they get them.

[Naxos.2503]

Atleast it's achievable, and not bound to ridiculous RNG drops.

Like a certain Smoke Shaman Tonic.

I'm never gonna let it die you know.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Naxos.2503 said:Atleast it's achievable, and not bound to ridiculous RNG drops.

Like a certain Smoke Shaman Tonic.

I'm never gonna let it die you know.

Well, you can buy it from the TP if you want to. 1250g. Imagine if it was craftable, but it cost 4000g for the materials.

[Naxos.2503]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@"Naxos.2503" said:Atleast it's achievable, and not bound to ridiculous RNG drops.

Like a certain Smoke Shaman Tonic.

I'm never gonna let it die you know.

Well, you can buy it from the TP if you want to. 1250g. Imagine if it was craftable, but it cost 4000g for the materials.

Then obviously the price would be even more outrageous, but if you craft it yourself the price is fixed -and- definite. Whereas something tied to RNG, price is essentially "Whatever the seller feels like selling it for", and that fluctuate from day to day, generally not in the buyer's favor.

[Hypnowulf.7403]

I'm always fascinated by the divergent natures of the gameplay and writing teams.

The narrative teams are comprised of some of the most genuinely, legitimately lovely and warm people I've ever had the good fortune of interacting with. They listen, they're considerate, they take what people feel and have to say into account. They're some of my favourite humans when it comes to game development. I often pester Tom Abernathy because I'm fond of him and I want to let him know how bloody invested in these stories and characters I am. Jormag especially, they've got me hook, line, and sinker with Jormag.

Now, I'll admit that Guild Wars 2 has, hands down, the best balancing I've ever seen in an MMORPG. So I'm not going to include the balancing team in this as I've never felt an iota of vindictive intent from them. Their iterative handling of balancing has always appealed to me as it takes casual players into account. So let's leave them out of how I feel about the gameplay design team. Which... means I now have to talk about the gameplay design team.

I have PTSD, severe anxiety (and worse social anxieties), hand tremors, random bouts of dizziness, and I can have seizures if I play for too long. It just happens. I need to take breaks. So let's look at how the gameplay design team considers people like myself when designing gameplay, shall we? Let's see if it feels vindictive...

• A two-hour long meta with no breaks (health advisories and regulations be damned, I guess);
• An infusion that—as a Jormag-obsessed roleplayer—I want badly but I could never get as I don't play enough to farm the gold or materials necessary;
• Forced grouping with a few strikes, notably the Whisper strike which the Whisper mini is locked behind thus making it hell to obtain for people like myself (people who're disabled and just bloody adore Jormag okay?);
• An experience gain speed on Masteries that feels punishingly slow for whatever bizarre reason when compared against anything in Path of Fire or LWS4.

I feel so respected and welcomed says me, saracastically. It feels like they hate me. It feels like they hate disabled people. I don't understand why as casual players like me are where all of their profit comes from. I mean, I've spoken with hardcore players and they don't buy gems because they don't need to, they just exchange the plentiful amounts of gold they get. This is true for even minor-league hardcore players. So ArenaNet is relying on casuals to pay their bills.

If it wasn't for the love I have for the story and my fondness for GW2's creatives overall, I would've bounced some time ago. The punishing, sadistic, vindictive nature of their gameplay design is something they need to look at. Like the OP said, no one is going to grind that out, so it's just keeping roleplayers—the people who'd want it—away from that reward.

This isn't okay.

If the game was designed for a hardcore audience then I'd understand it. Hands up how many remember though what happened the last time ArenaNet thought that they could coast by on a hardcore audience? Heart of Thorns almost left them bankrupt. I remember that. I remember that's why Path of Fire was the way it was. Now they're falling back on bad habits. The thing is? I worry. I really worry. I wouldn't have posted this otherwise. I've read that Guild Wars 2 is far from NCsoft's most profitable product, and the way that the gameplay design team treats casuals is why.

The thing is, it's bad enough feeling like a second-class citizen versus hardcore players who never pay their way, but it's even worse worrying that my favourite online game is going to get sunsetted.

I love this game. I love the writing team. I love the art team. I love the sound design team. I love the balancing team. I... don't have much love for the gameplay design team, if I'm honest. I think that of all these teams, if any is going to drop the ball and get GW2 sunsetted, it'll be them. The hardcore, WoW-like places they come from aren't applicable to GW2. What they're doing is unhealthy and even actively destructive for this game.

I just had to speak my mind because I love the story, world, and everything else so much.

ANet, look... Just investigate this, okay? Figure this out. Don't get GW2 sunsetted. And if anyone believes that won't happen? City of Heroes fans were saying the same thing right up until it did. This plays on my mind a lot.

[Hypnowulf.7403]

@Shikaru.7618 said:It's not up to the game to teach basic finance management.Are you Bobby Kotick? I mean, I'm sorry, but it's not the place of a game to require finance management. It's a game. It's up to ArenaNet to know basic finance management though. I mean, like I said, it's up to them whether they want to alienate all of their cashcow casuals or not. I'll spend over $1,000 a month on the cash shop easily, but I am not spending $300~ on gold.

I expect better quid pro quo on my spending than that. I have some self-respect.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Khisanth.2948" said:Well for one there has been plenty of posts asking for non-rng way to get some of the other infusions. This is a case of giving what people have asked for.

If those people also meant "and it should available for as cheap as possible while remaining a rare prestige item" then they should have made that explicit as well.If you say "it's cold, i could use more heat", you really should not be expected to have to explicitly specify that your wish does not include someone setting you on fire.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Khisanth.2948" said:Well for one there has been plenty of posts asking for non-rng way to get some of the other infusions. This is a case of giving what people have asked for.

If those people also meant "and it should available for as cheap as possible while remaining a rare prestige item" then they should have made that explicit as well.If you say "it's cold, i could use more heat", you really should not be expected to have to explicitly specify that your wish does

not

include someone setting you on fire.

It does if the last time you said that and the person did set you on fire. In this case the previous case was legendary precursor crafting and maybe other things too.

[Shikaru.7618]

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:It's not up to the game to teach basic finance management.Are you Bobby Kotick? I mean, I'm sorry, but it's not the place of a game to

require

finance management. It's a game. It's up to ArenaNet to know basic finance management though. I mean, like I said, it's up to them whether they want to alienate all of their cashcow casuals or not. I'll spend over $1,000 a month on the cash shop easily, but I am

not

spending $300~ on gold.

I expect better quid pro quo on my spending than that. I have some self-respect.

Then don't? No ones asking you to spend real money on the game. Just don't spend the gold you earn in game on things that don't bring you closer to your goals. Is that really something that needs to be explained to people?

[Substance E.4852]

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:It's not up to the game to teach basic finance management.Are you Bobby Kotick? I mean, I'm sorry, but it's not the place of a game to

require

finance management. It's a game. It's up to ArenaNet to know basic finance management though. I mean, like I said, it's up to them whether they want to alienate all of their cashcow casuals or not. I'll spend over $1,000 a month on the cash shop easily, but I am

not

spending $300~ on gold.

I expect better quid pro quo on my spending than that. I have some self-respect.

So you'll spend ludicrous amounts of money on items that can only be gotten in the cash shop but not ones that can be bought off the TP?

I can pretty much guarantee you that no one outside of the sphere of online gaming would even consider the two distinct things, they would just see you spending a lot of cash on pixels