Necro deserves a solid nerf; especially Reaper. In PvP and especially WvW.

[Anchoku.8142]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Milosz.5938" said:Necro is truly OP in wvwvw and because of that he is very difficult to 1vs1.

{{{{{If you have "few lifes" vs "one life" - you call it not OP or even fair?}}}}}I tried 1 vs 1 as elementalist, and i ALMOST kill him - two times - but when he was ~5% hp ++boom++ next hp bar. I know that it's normal for reaper (it's important mechanic) but really??... He could reactived it soo fast.I'm aware that ANET has 'in deep respect' elementalists but this secund hp bar have to be nerf in wvwvw - it shouldn't work as 'few (3+) lifes'.

Anet hates elementalist,

all the devs play necro during streams

, although with ele you can still beat below trash level players.....not a hard feat in this game...about necro vs ele, I was able to kill an "experienced" weaver in less than 30s while using a condi core necro.....with less than 24 hrs on it, nothing you can do...dodge, dodge, F1, condi burst -fear-fear..dead ele

Honestly, you're wasting time on ele, move your armor to necro,

you can learn core necro within 1 day

with reaper needing few days at most...and scourge is really pointless to me, it's just a walking condi field

Weaver is a pretty strong roamer which can delete anybody if you know how to play it which is not easy i have to admit. Tempest is a legit spot in squads as support.I wouldn't say Anet hates ele, ele is in a vey good spot at the moment.

My experience is Necro is fine, as very well others had said it is enough to have some CC and you can fight any necro. The counter is very clear and you don't need to buy bundles from merchants (like stealth still needs) to be able to fight it. Whining threads because kids don't want to equip any CC, cleanses or vitality are not helpful in my opinion and should be disregarded.

If any other case maybe nerf a bit the damage from Lich Form autos: 5K autos are not OK. But anything else is fine, a necro can be really tanky and dangerous but it has counters.

Forum language translation :

-"This class is balanced and pretty strong" - translation = "That class is pretty kitten and garbage but I don't play it so great for me"

-"There is plenty of counterplay to this class" - translation - "I play this class and I want it to stay as it is"

-"That class is broken and they should delete/nerf that and that" - translation - "That class counters me pretty hard unless I outplay them"

Anytime somebody says :" that class is balanced".....you can be sure as hell that class is absolute kitten/garbage tier...if that class would be even remotely decent you'd see whining threads all over the forum.

That is getting pretty salty though I admit Arenanet has trimmed back Ele while buffing Necro over the years. You know how to play Elementalist so you know its skill tells and weaknesses. Many players do not know how to handle a Necro, which is generally kite-to-death.

You do not see me on other profession sub-forums whining and I think there are other Necro mains who show restraint so please do not lump us all together.

I fondly remember stacking 25 burning in a few seconds and exploiting frost bow on Ele. Balance is always a matter of perspective. Match-ups from years ago are not the same today. It feels bad to go from best to less but there will always be balance patches to shuffle the deck. I think Ele will be restored in the next expac but not to a broken OP level.

Necro got a lot of love in the last two expacs with power-cleave, corruption-cleave and barrier. While Arenanet may be cautious with cleaves and profession-stacking in the future because of Necro, I can imagine Ele getting some kind of AoE-heavy specialization next.

[anduriell.6280]

@Anchoku.8142 said:Necro got a lot of love in the last two expacs with power-cleave, corruption-cleave and barrier. While Arenanet may be cautious with cleaves and profession-stacking in the future because of Necro, I can imagine Ele getting some kind of AoE-heavy specialization next.But the Ele is already a heavy AoE spec. It all depends on the attunement.

What i would expect for the next expansion is to limit the attunements somehow so they can use only one or two or to replace the attunement system for an energy system.

[Nimon.7840]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Methuselah.4376" said:The moment you said "Why should I have to do A to avoid B" is the moment you lost all credibility on this thread and really makes you look like a troll. Clearly in all your time playing this game, you've not learned much. The biggest reason ranger counters necro is because it has range and disengaging skills for days and these are things that necro lacks and has no counter to. That doesn't mean that you will automatically win against a necro simply because you're on ranger; skill is still very much required as well as some measure of strategy along with the right gear. If you're going to go YOLO and take a Reaper head on in melee range with a suboptimal build while you're chilled and with blind fields down, you're playing into the Reaper's game and if they are not brain dead they will butcher you.

There's still a ranger build that's extremely strong in melee range.70-90% protection uptime60-80% stability uptime

Both counters reaper extremely hard.

You can't land critical stuns because of the stab uptime and prot uptime makes you look like trying to hit the ranger with a wet noodle.

Obviously it's not what OP is playing, else OP wouldn't have issues with reapers

It's like 90% of thief/ranger nerf threads are populated by necro players...oh wait, it reminds me of those "nerf diamond skin" thread, one necro would start a new one every other day lol

Not really, I recently played ranger for a bit, with different builds. And it basically doesn't have even one matchup, that's basically lost from the beginning just by class matchup.It's easy to kill a lot of builds, not many enemy builds needed real effort, and you can basically always run away, if you feel like you are loosing, because you made a mistake.Which is the definition of overpowered, or let's say, overtuned

[Arheundel.6451]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Methuselah.4376" said:The moment you said "Why should I have to do A to avoid B" is the moment you lost all credibility on this thread and really makes you look like a troll. Clearly in all your time playing this game, you've not learned much. The biggest reason ranger counters necro is because it has range and disengaging skills for days and these are things that necro lacks and has no counter to. That doesn't mean that you will automatically win against a necro simply because you're on ranger; skill is still very much required as well as some measure of strategy along with the right gear. If you're going to go YOLO and take a Reaper head on in melee range with a suboptimal build while you're chilled and with blind fields down, you're playing into the Reaper's game and if they are not brain dead they will butcher you.

There's still a ranger build that's extremely strong in melee range.70-90% protection uptime60-80% stability uptime

Both counters reaper extremely hard.

You can't land critical stuns because of the stab uptime and prot uptime makes you look like trying to hit the ranger with a wet noodle.

Obviously it's not what OP is playing, else OP wouldn't have issues with reapers

It's like 90% of thief/ranger nerf threads are populated by necro players...oh wait, it reminds me of those "nerf diamond skin" thread, one necro would start a new one every other day lol

Not really, I recently played ranger for a bit, with different builds. And it basically doesn't have even one matchup, that's basically lost from the beginning just by class matchup.It's easy to kill a lot of builds, not many enemy builds needed real effort, and you can basically always run away, if you feel like you are loosing, because you made a mistake.Which is the definition of overpowered, or let's say, overtuned

There is not a single class you haven't called OP from what I remember ....as long as it can kill necro with the same level of effort..it is OP...I must give you guys credit where is due...: out of all MMO communities, the GW2 one is the most entitled, whining and deluded and you guys in this game managed to reach the top spot only recently, went as far as overtaking WoW forum in terms of whining Nerf this and nerf that...nerf everything that kills me.

Also "my class takes skill...yours doesn't" ........it took me 1 day to learn just core necro condi...."my class takes skill" my behind, the class design ins this game can be handled by a 10 years old, I can literally roam on every single class...I may not win every single fight on every class that I didn't use for months but....I would have enough material to cover those stupid "roaming montages" you lot keep in high esteem

[Axl.8924]

@"Milosz.5938" said:Necro is truly OP in wvwvw and because of that he is very difficult to 1vs1.

{{{{{If you have "few lifes" vs "one life" - you call it not OP or even fair?}}}}}I tried 1 vs 1 as elementalist, and i ALMOST kill him - two times - but when he was ~5% hp ++boom++ next hp bar. I know that it's normal for reaper (it's important mechanic) but really??... He could reactived it soo fast.I'm aware that ANET has 'in deep respect' elementalists but this secund hp bar have to be nerf in wvwvw - it shouldn't work as 'few (3+) lifes'.

Which type core ele? tempest? cause man oh man core ele is so squishy.

Il admit i'm not a master at ele, but i noticed the limitations, and admittedly the nerf to the cd of lightning flash and mist form hurt a lot, especially since a class that squishy should have better mobility to combat getting hit.

I also have a issue with the 3 second in lockout in core.

[Anchoku.8142]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Necro got a lot of love in the last two expacs with power-cleave, corruption-cleave and barrier. While Arenanet may be cautious with cleaves and profession-stacking in the future because of Necro, I can imagine Ele getting some kind of AoE-heavy specialization next.But the Ele is already a heavy AoE spec. It all depends on the attunement.

What i would expect for the next expansion is to limit the attunements somehow so they can use only one or two or to replace the attunement system for an energy system.

One other opportunity for an elite Ele spec is the missing elements: Etherial, Light, Dark. Adding, for example, a specialization that flips between dark and light attunements on an e-spec weapon and modifies attunements on core weapons to add dark or light attributes and skills might be interesting. Perhaps the trait line would require choosing between adding dark fields or light fields to core skills not having fields or finishers; i.e., set up for siphons or for condi removal.

Finishing combinations has always been fun for me and is something Ele can do that Necro has little of by design.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:One other opportunity for an elite Ele spec is the missing elements: Etherial, Light, Dark. Adding, for example, a specialization that flips between dark and light attunements on an e-spec weapon and modifies attunements on core weapons to add dark or light attributes and skills might be interesting. Perhaps the trait line would require choosing between adding dark fields or light fields to core skills not having fields or finishers; i.e., set up for siphons or for condi removal.

Finishing combinations has always been fun for me and is something Ele can do that Necro has little of by design.

It's not really the ideal subforum to discuss elementalist's elite specs. The issue of your suggestion is that adding a new attunment (whether it replace one or take a 5th spot) is to heavy on skill developpement to be a possible option (For 1 new attunment it mean 15 skills for core weapons, new effects/skills for all 6 glyphs and new effects on quite a few core traits. If you add an off-hand, it's 10 more skills, a main hand 15 more skills, a 2H weapon 25 more skills along with a set of 6 utility skills. Minimum 37 "new" skills, maximum 52 along with tweaks on a lot of traits, the amount of work is stagering). I'm not claiming the idea is impossible but very unlikely.

[Anchoku.8142]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:One other opportunity for an elite Ele spec is the missing elements: Etherial, Light, Dark. Adding, for example, a specialization that flips between dark and light attunements on an e-spec weapon and modifies attunements on core weapons to add dark or light attributes and skills might be interesting. Perhaps the trait line would require choosing between adding dark fields or light fields to core skills not having fields or finishers; i.e., set up for siphons or for condi removal.

Finishing combinations has always been fun for me and is something Ele can do that Necro has little of by design.

It's not really the ideal subforum to discuss elementalist's elite specs. The issue of your suggestion is that adding a new attunment (whether it replace one or take a 5th spot) is to heavy on skill developpement to be a possible option (For 1 new attunment it mean 15 skills for core weapons, new effects/skills for all 6 glyphs and new effects on quite a few core traits. If you add an off-hand, it's 10 more skills, a main hand 15 more skills, a 2H weapon 25 more skills along with a set of 6 utility skills. Minimum 37 "new" skills, maximum 52 along with tweaks on a lot of traits, the amount of work is stagering). I'm not claiming the idea is impossible but very unlikely.

Agree I was getting off track for this forum. Was thinking a new Ele elite would replace 4 F-key elements with max 2, not make 6. Anyway, I'll stop now before getting a warning.

[Nimon.7840]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Methuselah.4376" said:The moment you said "Why should I have to do A to avoid B" is the moment you lost all credibility on this thread and really makes you look like a troll. Clearly in all your time playing this game, you've not learned much. The biggest reason ranger counters necro is because it has range and disengaging skills for days and these are things that necro lacks and has no counter to. That doesn't mean that you will automatically win against a necro simply because you're on ranger; skill is still very much required as well as some measure of strategy along with the right gear. If you're going to go YOLO and take a Reaper head on in melee range with a suboptimal build while you're chilled and with blind fields down, you're playing into the Reaper's game and if they are not brain dead they will butcher you.

There's still a ranger build that's extremely strong in melee range.70-90% protection uptime60-80% stability uptime

Both counters reaper extremely hard.

You can't land critical stuns because of the stab uptime and prot uptime makes you look like trying to hit the ranger with a wet noodle.

Obviously it's not what OP is playing, else OP wouldn't have issues with reapers

It's like 90% of thief/ranger nerf threads are populated by necro players...oh wait, it reminds me of those "nerf diamond skin" thread, one necro would start a new one every other day lol

Not really, I recently played ranger for a bit, with different builds. And it basically doesn't have even one matchup, that's basically lost from the beginning just by class matchup.It's easy to kill a lot of builds, not many enemy builds needed real effort, and you can basically always run away, if you feel like you are loosing, because you made a mistake.Which is the definition of overpowered, or let's say, overtuned

There is not a single class you haven't called OP from what I remember ....

as long as it can kill necro with the same level of effort..it is OP

...I must give you guys credit where is due...: out of all MMO communities, the GW2 one is the most entitled, whining and deluded and you guys in this game managed to reach the top spot only recently, went as far as overtaking WoW forum in terms of whining Nerf this and nerf that...nerf everything that kills me.

Lol. You don't really want to get what I'm saying right?It has absolutely nothing to do with what class I'm playing.If you ask WvW players (roamers) for the best classes to roam with, I'd say 90% of those will tell you that thief and ranger are the best roamers. And the reason behind that is mostly their mobility, but thats not the only reason behind it. The reason is that they have a lot of good matchups.

Are there other things that are extremely overtuned right now? - yes (torment rune condi rev, renegade-shortbow just to give another example)Are there things that are undertones? - yes (almost every ele build for example)

It would be nice if these differences in power levels would be addressed every now and then.That doesn't mean that done classes have to be nerfed, it could also mean: buffing the weaker classes.

The reason behind asking for needs:from what anet has shown, they want to reduce the power levels of all classes. So nerfing the strongest ones is the way to go, to bring them down to the level of the weaker classes.

Also "my class takes skill...yours doesn't" ........it took me 1 day to learn just core necro condi...."my class takes skill" my behind, the class design ins this game can be handled by a 10 years old, I can literally roam on every single class...I may not win every single fight on every class that I didn't use for months but....I would have enough material to cover those stupid "roaming montages" you lot keep in high esteem

Sure some classes are easy to learn, but that doesn't say anything about how hard they are to master.

For example thief is harder to learn than necro, but both are pretty hard to master, just in different aspects.

[Zuras.5394]

@Connla.....So your a Ranger player coming over to the necro forums to complain about possibly one bad event against a necro player....Why are you not over in the ranger forum asking for advice? Seems to me your trying to get some kind of revenge by trolling here hoping the divs will nerf the necro. Sad.

Every profession has it's strength and weakness. It's up to the player to to learn its strengths and weakness. If you got out played then it's up to you to know where you went wrong then re adjust and try again. The necro doesn't need a nerf, it's actually fairly ok now.

[kharmin.7683]

@TrueTyrant.6458 said:Typical ranger, why not go beg for more range on your longbow?

Please don't paint all ranger players with such a broad brush.

[Aplethoraof.2643]

@"cobracommander.5861" said:hyrbrid melee ranger whines about struggling to fight power reaper.

LOL

"why can't I beat every class in the game with my obviously meta build?"

This basically.

OP, I might understand where you are coming from. For the longest time, I didn't want to change my build either. I was comfortable with my build and I really enjoyed playing it.

But you have to understand. . .you will die if you stick to one build. And that isn't the fault of anyone but yourself. There is no "one build for each class", every build is made to deal with different (but not all) scenarios.

You NEED multiple builds if you want to deal with more than a few scenarios. This isn't a game where you can just stick with one build and be fine - there is a reason that changing your build is free and can be done nearly anywhere (even between matches in tournaments).

The reason, is that you are EXPECTED to be flexible with your build. You are expected to change it in accordance with what will work with different scenarios. You are expected to improve your build.

More experienced players than you are giving you good feedback and you seem to be constantly defaulting to "no, my build is perfect". With that attitude, you will only die more (and to more things than just necromancers).

Listen to their advice and try it. Get out of your comfort zone and you'll find the game has so much more to offer. Don't just stick to one flawed build, experiment with many. That is the way GW2 is supposed to be played, and that is how you'll be far more successful.

You have two choices:1) Change your build, heed the advice these kind fellow players (who have been quite patient with you, given your stubborn attitude) are giving you, and experiment.2) Die lots.

There is NO middle ground.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"TrueTyrant.6458" said:Typical ranger, why not go beg for more range on your longbow?

Please don't paint all ranger players with such a broad brush.

There's been a bit of a trend over the years where the population of least-skilled rangers has a weird compulsion to go to other subforums and ask for nerfs to professions they have not yet played after hopping into the competitive modes.Some have been so kind to record their "skilled gameplay" after thousands of hours in PvE to be absolutely eviscerated by the respective other communities, pretty much pointing out that they made a bad decision with extremely slow decision-making and reaction times at virtually every second of footage.

It's not so much the fault of ranger players but the fact I think starting the game playing the class as a stereotypical longbow pewpew builds in PvE breeds some very bad habits and expectations that the mains and first-time rangers don't realize until they delve deep into the other professions.

Even as coming from someone who's first-ever character was a ranger (and rerolled into thief due to the boring pet mechanics and underpowered nature of the weapon skills at launch when pets were designed to deal 40% of the ranger's damage) I firmly believe unlocking pets and longbow at 80 would remove at least half these problems, as to force them into being actively engaged more with the game's mechanics earlier on and taking just a few more risks.

Even my girlfriend with limited gaming experience who joined recently quit the ranger as her first character cited that while she wanted to blast people with a bow and be a "cool archer -expletive-," the gameplay was not stimulating, and subsequently re-rolled into guard, hit 80, and then made a thief, and found much more depth and difficulty right out of the gates in both.

[kharmin.7683]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"TrueTyrant.6458" said:Typical ranger, why not go beg for more range on your longbow?

Please don't paint all ranger players with such a broad brush.

There's been a bit of a trend over the years where the population of least-skilled rangers has a weird compulsion to go to other subforums and ask for nerfs to professions they have not yet played after hopping into the competitive modes.Some have been so kind to record their "skilled gameplay" after thousands of hours in PvE to be absolutely eviscerated by the respective other communities, pretty much pointing out that they made a bad decision with extremely slow decision-making and reaction times at virtually every second of footage.

It's not so much the fault of ranger players but the fact I think starting the game playing the class as a stereotypical longbow pewpew builds in PvE breeds some very bad habits and expectations that the mains and first-time rangers don't realize until they delve deep into the other professions.

Even as coming from someone who's first-ever character was a ranger (and rerolled into thief due to the boring pet mechanics and underpowered nature of the weapon skills at launch when pets were designed to deal 40% of the ranger's damage) I firmly believe unlocking pets and longbow at 80 would remove at least half these problems, as to force them into being actively engaged more with the game's mechanics earlier on and taking just a few more risks.

Even my girlfriend with limited gaming experience who joined recently quit the ranger as her first character cited that while she wanted to blast people with a bow and be a "cool archer -expletive-," the gameplay was not stimulating, and subsequently re-rolled into guard, hit 80, and then made a thief, and found much more depth and difficulty right out of the gates in both.

I understand your points, but they also seem to be insinuating that they reflect the abilities and game-play of those players who choose to play rangers. My request, again, is to not paint all of us ranger players with such a broad brush. Not all of us ranger players exhibit the characteristics that you describe. I main ranger, and yet I also enjoy other professions as well. I just happen to prefer the ranger profession for a host of reasons and I'm confident that there are a lot of other ranger mains who likewise are not playing in the manner that you describe or who are quite adept at their preferred profession.

Comments like the one that I originally replied to are overly broad and, in my opinion, don't do much to help relationships between players who happen to prefer certain professions.

Not all of us ranger players are like that.

[Obtena.7952]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@TrueTyrant.6458 said:Typical ranger, why not go beg for more range on your longbow?

Please don't paint all ranger players with such a broad brush.

There's been a bit of a trend over the years where the population of least-skilled rangers has a weird compulsion to go to other subforums and ask for nerfs to professions they have not yet played after hopping into the competitive modes.

That's been a trend for almost every class for the last 8 years. Dude playing class X can't kill class Y ... there is a rant post about it in class Y subforum.

What ACTAULLY needs to happen is for some people understand how this game works and has worked for 8 years. Game gets changes, classes move around in rank ... happens all the time. There isn't a need for specific calls to nerf or buff whatever class because history tells us it happens eventually to everyone. These threads aren't made by 'rangers' or whatever subsection of player is FOTM to be targetted by frustrated WvW players ... they are made by people that can't deal with what they are experiencing.

Bottomline: Someone is always better for WHATEVER reason, so people need to deal with it.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@TrueTyrant.6458 said:Typical ranger, why not go beg for more range on your longbow?

Please don't paint all ranger players with such a broad brush.

There's been a bit of a trend over the years where the population of least-skilled rangers has a weird compulsion to go to other subforums and ask for nerfs to professions they have not yet played after hopping into the competitive modes.

That's been a trend for almost every class for the last 8 years. Dude playing class X can't kill class Y ... there is a rant post about it in class Y subforum.

What ACTAULLY needs to happen is for some people understand how this game works and has worked for 8 years. Game gets changes, classes move around in rank ... happens all the time. There isn't a need for specific calls to nerf or buff whatever class because history tells us it happens eventually to everyone. These threads aren't made by 'rangers' or whatever subsection of player is FOTM to be targetted by frustrated WvW players ... they are made by people that can't deal with what they are experiencing.

Bottomline: Someone is always better for WHATEVER reason, so people need to deal with it.

Sure, but I meant more along the lines of there's a trend beyond the general QQ.

Notice that despite the state of the warrior and to some extent the mesmer, and the historic state of engineer for several years, few complaint threads were really ever made in the other class subsections.

Weirdly, I've observed a small correlation between first-timer longbow rangers and a compulsion to ask for nerfs to other professions rather than a re-evaluation of ranger.> @kharmin.7683 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@TrueTyrant.6458 said:Typical ranger, why not go beg for more range on your longbow?

Please don't paint all ranger players with such a broad brush.

There's been a bit of a trend over the years where the population of least-skilled rangers has a weird compulsion to go to other subforums and ask for nerfs to professions they have not yet played after hopping into the competitive modes.Some have been so kind to record their "skilled gameplay" after thousands of hours in PvE to be absolutely eviscerated by the respective other communities, pretty much pointing out that they made a bad decision with extremely slow decision-making and reaction times at virtually every second of footage.

It's not so much the fault of ranger players but the fact I think starting the game playing the class as a stereotypical longbow pewpew builds in PvE breeds some very bad habits and expectations that the mains and first-time rangers don't realize until they delve deep into the other professions.

Even as coming from someone who's first-ever character was a ranger (and rerolled into thief due to the boring pet mechanics and underpowered nature of the weapon skills at launch when pets were designed to deal 40% of the ranger's damage) I firmly believe unlocking pets and longbow at 80 would remove at least half these problems, as to force them into being actively engaged more with the game's mechanics earlier on and taking just a few more risks.

Even my girlfriend with limited gaming experience who joined recently quit the ranger as her first character cited that while she wanted to blast people with a bow and be a "cool archer -expletive-," the gameplay was not stimulating, and subsequently re-rolled into guard, hit 80, and then made a thief, and found much more depth and difficulty right out of the gates in both.

I understand your points, but they also seem to be insinuating that they reflect the abilities and game-play of those players who choose to play rangers. My request, again, is to not paint all of us ranger players with such a broad brush. Not all of us ranger players exhibit the characteristics that you describe. I main ranger, and yet I also enjoy other professions as well. I just happen to prefer the ranger profession for a host of reasons and I'm confident that there are a lot of other ranger mains who likewise are not playing in the manner that you describe or who are quite adept at their preferred profession.

Comments like the one that I originally replied to are overly broad and, in my opinion, don't do much to help relationships between players who happen to prefer certain professions.

Not all of us ranger players are like that.

Sure, my explanation is more the underlying rationale behind why conclusions tend to be jumped to in complaint threads on other professions' subforums more than systematically saying all ranger players are bad.

I know some extremely skilled ranger mains who frankly are better players than I am. It doesn't reduce my observation (among others') that woefully-underskilled play is often the byproduct of camping "bearbow" builds in PvE, playing what's objectively the most forgiving class to level up and get started on the game with, and then having a totally different reality thrust upon them when put into PvP environments. It's not an innate lack of skill or inability to be skilled, but rather a completely and totally different perception of the way the game plays than how it actually does. And new players who start on such builds tend to jump to conclusions about balance rather than realizing they're fundamentally playing the game, strictly speaking, wrong, from a competitive mindset.

It's a lack of preparedness and understanding of systems moreso than total ineptitude, and it manifests mostly in players who are new and primarily ranger players from PvE pivoting over to the PvP formats.

Understanding and likely playing all professions to equal content is what will more healthily define a balanced and more objective perspective on power disparities between professions, but my mentioning is specifically more about approach to combat and engagement mindset moreso than total game knowledge.

[Axl.8924]

Decieverx and your reasoning is why ANET bombards classes with nerfs into the ground and deletion, like how necros cried for changes to scourge to keep it viable and people were saying as well nerf the radius don't delete the damage and all the phantoms, and they did it and it was clunky.

Its also people's fault that they gave anet the idea scourge was support, even if it was originally meant to be a condi aoe spec.

Personally as long as staff core is viable as condi and scepter core condi i don't care, let scourge be a support spec rebuild it, as long as we have 1 viable spec, and as long as ANET actually decides if they want to give multiple viable specs to each class, which they should.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Axl.8924 said:Its also people's fault that they gave anet the idea scourge was support, even if it was originally meant to be a condi aoe spec.

What? Anet themselves said they intended it to be a support

[Axl.8924]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Its also people's fault that they gave anet the idea scourge was support, even if it was originally meant to be a condi aoe spec.

What? Anet themselves said they intended it to be a support

Look at scourge, its built to be a condi dps spec.

It was even that, its just anet changed their minds when people changed their minds because getting scourge to work at the time without being too oppressive meant it needed a rework, then it did get one and support scourge was deemed too oppressive too in SPVP.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Its also people's fault that they gave anet the idea scourge was support, even if it was originally meant to be a condi aoe spec.

What? Anet themselves said they intended it to be a support

Look at scourge, its built to be a condi dps spec.

It was even that, its just anet changed their minds when people changed their minds because getting scourge to work at the time without being too oppressive meant it needed a rework, then it did get one and support scourge was deemed too oppressive too in SPVP.

Literally in the reveal demos they describe it as being and having support..."torment your foes and support your allies"and a paraphrase the devs when demoing scourge in HotM "we wanted to give necro more support but we couldnt just give it to them,"

The only things that caused it to be a "condi dps spec" were the two bugs. One causing dhuumfire to proc on desert shroud pulses and another that caused shades to stack.It was always indented to be support heavy. Support, condition, and area control are all things scourge are and was designed to be from the very group up. Saying it "was supposed to be condi dps but people complained so anet changed its entire design to support because thats what people thought" is factually wrong.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Axl.8924" said:Look at scourge, its built to be a condi dps spec.

It was even that, its just anet changed their minds when people changed their minds because getting scourge to work at the time without being too oppressive meant it needed a rework, then it did get one and support scourge was deemed too oppressive too in SPVP.

It is not built to be a condi spec, it's built to be a support through barrier and boon corruption. Yes, boon corruption isn't especially effective in PvE but it was/is needed to keep in check boons in sPvP/WvW. One of the main design of the necromancer, even if it doesn't work all that well based on the gamemode, is to support it's allies through weakening their foes, it's one of the main reason, the necromancer is light on the boon sharing department. Technically, the scourge traitline have 2/3rd of it's traits dedicated to support, punishment are mainly about support even shades are a way to use shroud in a "suppory" way (yes it's clumsy but true nonetheless).

ANet didn't change their mind to make it more of a support spec, in fact GW2's devs were influenced by players that said that it wouldn't be able to take a spot as a support without relatively high dps pre PoF release. Which is the main reason why we've had to suffer through so much balance "tweaks" since the devs kinda overdid it as a result.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:Decieverx and your reasoning is why ANET bombards classes with nerfs into the ground and deletion, like how necros cried for changes to scourge to keep it viable and people were saying as well nerf the radius don't delete the damage and all the phantoms, and they did it and it was clunky.

Its also people's fault that they gave anet the idea scourge was support, even if it was originally meant to be a condi aoe spec.

Personally as long as staff core is viable as condi and scepter core condi i don't care, let scourge be a support spec rebuild it, as long as we have 1 viable spec, and as long as ANET actually decides if they want to give multiple viable specs to each class, which they should.

That doesn't make sense ... Anet has their own ideas about what they want the classes to be so no, player's aren't to blame when something gets a nerf. If Anet is so influenced by what players want then explain the state of balance for the last 8+ years.

[Axl.8924]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Decieverx and your reasoning is why ANET bombards classes with nerfs into the ground and deletion, like how necros cried for changes to scourge to keep it viable and people were saying as well nerf the radius don't delete the damage and all the phantoms, and they did it and it was clunky.

Its also people's fault that they gave anet the idea scourge was support, even if it was originally meant to be a condi aoe spec.

Personally as long as staff core is viable as condi and scepter core condi i don't care, let scourge be a support spec rebuild it, as long as we have 1 viable spec, and as long as ANET actually decides if they want to give multiple viable specs to each class, which they should.

That doesn't make sense ... Anet has their own ideas about what they want the classes to be so no, player's aren't to blame when something gets a nerf. If Anet is so influenced by what players want then explain the state of balance for the last 8+ years.

Well it is look at the times we screamed for nerfs for ele we complained about mobility it got nerfed look at our cries about mobility and stealth for thief:Nerfed complaints and cries about scourge and ignoring necro mains complaints and decries that: If you nerfed the radius and fix it you could still maintain damage. We the players have more influence than you think and more power, and we are as much to blame as anyone in anet, if not more.

We need to take responsibility when we call out stuff. Earlier on we had a thread from a noob ranger asking for necros to be nerfed into the ground because he had a spec that was melee range and was hard countered by i think it was reaper? and he was demanding it be nerfed into the ground, and years in the past we got what we wanted. Amulets deleted. People are still crying for a amulet that benefits guardians to be deleted.

Also if you say:Well they got the ultimate say.

Yes they do, but they are losing some folks and there are some people unhappy and getting mixed messages, and when a lot of people scream and complain about a problem they are also trying to placate us.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:Yes they do, but they are losing some folks and there are some people unhappy and getting mixed messages, and when a lot of people scream and complain about a problem they are also trying to placate us.

Of course if players cry about EVERYTHING ... it looks like Anet is taking direction from players if they change even just one of those things. There should be NO mixed message if you stop assuming Anet is taking direction for how to change the game from players. Just because there is coincidental changes that reflect what players complain about should not lead you to the conclusion Anet is taking direction from players.

[Vinny.7260]

I didn't read any of this. I already knew most of it was going to be dumb- just honest.

Main thing I'll say Necromancer needs reconsidered in Life Force generation, it never got considered in instances where damage was gutted across the board. Skills like Spectral Walk, Spectral Armor, Grasp, Reaper's Touch, etc. The numbers could be toned down a little bit.

Other than that. This is a L2P issue, simple as that. Ranger has the ability to punt with instant-swap to LB 4 (especially with Revocation sigil) and remove Stability to punt anyway. Yeah, Reaper could dodge, but you could dodge too. Vicious circle of fighting and trying to win, almost as if intended.

Edit: Oops, wrong formatting.