What kind of DIFFICULTY would you like for EoD open world maps?

[SkyCake.4216]

I voted PoF, but in-between probably would have been more accurate for my thoughts. The idea of having two separate instances of the same map for difficulties also sounds kind of fun, though unlikely. Would also have its own set of problems. I also think it would be wrong to try and simplifier difficulty. Different parts of the same map can feel completely different from one another. Difficulty should be more about creativity rather than spreadsheets.

I do think PoF was better in terms of difficulty. Some of the enemies were more annoying, but the mechanical differences/counters/ideas were appreciated. HoT feels like the "damage sponge" of difficulty relative to map design. Pocket Raptors were dumb. A lot of HoT enemies were. There were few interactions. Several enemies were just "don't get one/multi shot". So, I hope we see more mechanically interesting enemies. Which, doesn't necessarily mean more difficult enemies.

I also think that intentionally designing overly-difficult maps is a bad idea and hiding the ego behind a sarcastic "grouping in an MMO!?" comments to be strange. Maybe have some extra difficult sections of the map. But, an open-world map should be designed with accessibility. There are plenty of options for group content and nothing stopping someone from playing the open world maps with friends.

But!

My favorite map is Dragon's Stand. I would be down for maps that exist purely for a meta event. It almost feels wrong to call it an open world map. I'm not saying Dragon's Stand is perfect or that it's the only one like it. Pre-RIBA Silverwaste was also fun and could be difficult at times. But, that's where I want Anet to worry more about difficulty. I would assume the next expansion has a meta-map (please with no other reason to be there), and I hope it's where any potentially higher difficulty lies. Dragon's Stand with 8 or 10-people squads is a lot of fun but I would dislike if the rest of the game was like that.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Rauderi.8706 said:Boo, misclicked my option.What I meant to vote was [POF difficulty].

HoT is too busy using mechanics that exceed the game's rules like infinite dodge-leaps, perma-evasion, projectile spam longer than mitigation allows, and Defiance bars the size of skyscrapers. It's only 'challenge' in the sense that the huge damage numbers from mobs are punishing, but not actual mechanical challenge within the scope of character abilities. And there are just too many things that don't have appropriate counters.With a thorough balance pass, HoT could be better balanced and much more engaging.

Mechanically, PoF is superior because it accounts for more of the players' abilities. It punishes range by giving buffs (which can be stripped with the right build), positioning is more important while still giving the character room to move, and there's just . . less cheap-shot nonsense. Balance out the excessive blind-spam and continued reliance on hard-cc as punishment, and PoF would be in a great spot.

I think perspectives on this depend a lot upon the builds players use. It's a natural consequence of a free-form system that doesn't lock players into strictly defined class roles.

High damage builds don't have these issues. That projectile spam is no problem if all you have to do is use one projectile defense skill or break one defiance bar before the target dies. However, if you don't deal enough damage you might need to break the bar more than once or find some other projectile defense to employ. That's going to be a problem for a lot of builds, so naturally it seems like the content is overtuned when you encounter something like a veteran bristleback, for example.

HoT pushes the reliance on active avoidance, damage output, and CC to a significantly higher level than the core game does. Builds that are weak in these areas may be frustrating to play even while they can still survive.

[Asum.4960]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Noah Salazar.5430" said:I love Hot dificulity, much more ppl wanted group up and play togheter cuz content was bit harder, while on pof you mostly play solo in mmo game (cuz of low dificulity but big agro range)

I disagree. In HoT, people don't necessarily want to group up; rather, in many cases they are FORCED to group up. For a game that is mostly casual, with a "play as you want" style, I detest being forced to group with people. GW2 as an MMO is, IMO, different in that players have the option to choose whether or not to group up with others. PoF did a better job of being more aligned with this principle (like Core).

When the game is too easy there isn't really a choice to play "together" either though. You can play alone alongside each other, sure, but that's hardly the same or what an MMO is about.

"Oh, we both each killed a mob in 3 seconds..", or "Can you stop killing things before I even get there?", is a far cry from "Nice, we just overcame this challenge together, which we likely couldn't have done or would have severely struggled with alone".

And no, that's not what Core was at it's time either. Just because Core hasn't kept up with powercreep doesn't mean new content shouldn't keep up with it either.

I still remember grouping for things like events in Core and Hero Points in pre-nerf HoT (and even GW1) - at their time, helping people out, exploring together, overcoming things together. Meanwhile the much more recent PoF is mostly just an unmemorable blur in my head, because I just steamrolled through it alone.

Can I group with someone for the sake of it anyway? Sure. But we'll still be playing the game alone, just alongside each other.

That aside, even HoT never "forced" it if I recall. There are always plentiful alternatives to go around something, like still being able to earn way more than enough Hero Points, even if avoiding all the challenging ones that favour grouping (and even those can be solo'ed).

[Nazarick.9653]

What's needed IMO is something more like WoW - ie. mobs are generally located off the main paths with low-mid density, then get packed together more in specific areas (in this case PoI/HP/MP/vista's or any other themed areas). If any "danger zones" are needed for events etc. set those up with veterans/elites and make them harder to enter/leave.

But really, anything will do as long as it's not like PoF where every part of the maps are packed full of ordinary mobs with 50000 units of aggro range, 1-shot mechanics, tons of CC and no tether.

[Rauderi.8706]

Just going to highlight a few things...

break one defiance bar before the target dies.What I'm saying is that it's mathematically impossible with some targets. I can unload with a hammer warrior built for the task of destroying Defiance and it still won't get the job done. That's overtuned.

some other projectile defense to employHow many projectile defenses should be necessary for an attack that lasts upwards of 10 seconds with nonstop, tracking damage. Karka were at least fair about this, but since Vet Bristlebacks are the exact critter in question and smeared all over a section of the map as if to be regular mobs, a player can't strafe to get past it, it's too long to dodgeroll through (even twice), and it would defy most blocks and completely devour aegis. It's overtuned.

It's not that the HoT enemies are bad. They're so close to being good. They just need a balance pass to work within the tools the players have instead of using their own special rules that thwart in-game systems.

[Gudradain.3892]

I loved Tangled Depth. It's the only map in the game where you feel like you are exploring a treacherous maze. The mini-map doesn't work (which is awesome). You have to learn your way through this labyrinth.

In general, I liked every map from HoT. I liked that mobs kept killing me and forced me to change my play style. I liked the big meta event where all the map had to participate. The first few times in those events were amazing as most players didn't have any clue what to do. I liked that some places were unreachable at first. I liked that there was few map but each one received a big amount of developing love. They did an amazing job with this expansion.

About PoF... I streamrolled through the maps without challenge, completed the story and forgot them. The mounts are nicely designed but at the same time trivialized so much in the game. I will take a lot of difficulty to go back to HoT traversal difficulty due to the mounts.

I want more than content. I want a game.

[artcreator.4859]

pls be harder

[Sobx.1758]

@Rauderi.8706 said:

break one defiance bar before the target dies.What I'm saying is that it's mathematically impossible with some targets. I can unload with a hammer warrior

built for the task of destroying Defiance

and it still won't get the job done. That's overtuned.

Burst it down or if it's too hard for you, avoid it I guess. If there are cases like that, they're pretty limited, both in zones and quantities they spawn.

[mindcircus.1506]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Noah Salazar.5430" said:I love Hot dificulity, much more ppl wanted group up and play togheter cuz content was bit harder, while on pof you mostly play solo in mmo game (cuz of low dificulity but big agro range)

I disagree. In HoT, people don't necessarily want to group up; rather, in many cases they are FORCED to group up. For a game that is mostly casual, with a "play as you want" style, I detest being forced to group with people. GW2 as an MMO is, IMO, different in that players have the option to choose whether or not to group up with others. PoF did a better job of being more aligned with this principle (like Core)."Play how you want" was never about enabling a low-effort gameplay loop. It was never about the soloability. nor accessibility of this title and it certainly was never about making the game more "casual"."Play how you want" was a statement meant to address the developer vision that players in differing game modes had equal access to the same rewards. It's the reason why players in WvW are able to earn Hero Points via Testimonies of Heroics. It's the reason why PvP reward tracks allow players to gain map currencies from PvE content.The phrase's purpose within the context the developers used it (The Manifesto tm) was about ensuring that a player was never forced to play a game mode they did not wish to in order to pursue a statistical advantage. This was an issue in many of the large MMORPGs of the time and still is in the case of WoW and ESO.

[Joote.4081]

If I had to chose between the two it would have to be HOTs. Trash mobs in POF won't leave you alone for a second. You can't even check your inventory without getting mugged.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Rauderi.8706 said:Just going to highlight a few things...

break one defiance bar before the target dies.What I'm saying is that it's mathematically impossible with some targets. I can unload with a hammer warrior

built for the task of destroying Defiance

and it still won't get the job done. That's overtuned.On warrior mace is the weapon designed for breakbar hate.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Rauderi.8706 said:Just going to highlight a few things...

break one defiance bar before the target dies.What I'm saying is that it's mathematically impossible with some targets. I can unload with a hammer warrior

built for the task of destroying Defiance

and it still won't get the job done. That's overtuned.

some other projectile defense to employHow many projectile defenses should be necessary for an attack that lasts upwards of 10 seconds with nonstop, tracking damage. Karka were at least fair about this, but since Vet Bristlebacks are the exact critter in question and smeared all over a section of the map as if to be regular mobs, a player can't strafe to get past it, it's too long to dodgeroll through (even twice), and it would defy most blocks and completely devour aegis. It's overtuned.

It's not that the HoT enemies are bad. They're

so close

to being good. They just need a balance pass to work

within

the tools the players have instead of using their own special rules that thwart in-game systems.

I don't necessarily disagree that bristlebacks are overtuned. But if they are, it's not because the classes don't have the tools to handle them. Bristlebacks are enemies that punish low-damage sustain builds. If you can burst 20k DPS, you don't need to CC or defend yourself because the bristleback will simply die before it can hurt you.

There are other enemies like this. PoF hydras are a good example. A high damage build will just walk up and stun chain the hydra 100-0. Low damage builds have the hydra charging around, dropping meteors and breathing fire. They are clearly designed with this strategy in mind. Is it the lack of tools available that make hydras a pain for many players? Or is it the fact that they are using the wrong build to deal with this type of enemy?

[Tiger.9786]

Although I could (& probably will) settle for the "Between" option for the general health of the game. As long as there's more skill expressive endgamey things to do as an option, which goes without saying. Curious what comes after DRM's.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I want it Hotter than HoT. Make it harder than Thor's biceps.

And make the loot worth the difficulty.

[Ultramex.1506]

As long as it isn't aggro range, that isn't difficulty that is an oversight, no amount of justifications gonna convince me to be ok with a veteran NPC become invulnerable because it ran to the other side of the map to mess with me.

[keenedge.9675]

BUT, there should be a decent buffer zone around the entry town for people to easily do a bit of sight-seeing without getting ganked.

[Dunroy.1058]

To clarify, I don't actually want HoT difficulty, I want the difficulty HoT felt to be at the time that it came out. IOW I want a difficulty that exceeds anything we've experienced so far, but in a way that felt like a barrier that could be overcome with time, practice, and learning mechanics, like back when HoT first released.

[kharmin.7683]

@RegnieRiku.4102 said:To clarify, I don't actually want HoT difficulty, I want the difficulty HoT felt to be at the time that it came out. IOW I want a difficulty that exceeds anything we've experienced so far, but in a way that felt like a barrier that could be overcome with time, practice, and learning mechanics, like back when HoT first released.

Good luck with that. Anet reduced the difficulty of HoT to bring players back who left after it's initial release. I don't think that Anet would want to drive players away again.

[Aplethoraof.2643]

As hard as possible. PoF was OK, but honestly after I got into HoT's groove I was craving something more challenging. I'm really hoping EoD can deliver there - though I have my doubts that it'll happen.

Hope>Hype for it to get more challenging and demanding, from me.

Core was a learning experience, PoF was (wierd because it was the 3rd one) a decent test of what you learned in core, and HoT build onto PoF's difficulty and kept you on your toes for some areas. We've all (hopefully, it'd be a bit weird in this game to just dive into a new expansion with no context) experienced those and dealt with them. The strength of GW2 is its skill-based combat (player skill>stats), I think it should lean into its mechanics to give the players a decent challenge.