If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[Mungo Zen.9364]

How is this thread 9 pages long with only a handful of actual suggestions? Y'all do like complaining to each other about stuff that has nothing to do with anything.

I made a suggestion on page one that didn't garner any attention: incentivize raiders with more loot

My original suggestion focused on having Veterans support New players by offering the Vets rewards for bringing new players. However, it can just be simplified down to "make raiding farmable with the similar Gold per Hour as OW Metas like Silverwastes".

We don't need easier raids. We need a reason for players to go back again and again after they have farmed the Legendary Armor and Achievements. I would opine that if you removed all the current rewards from raids, and made them farmable at say 40+ Gold per hour in random junk, you would have many more players wanting to be in them.

I look at Raiding, PvP and WvW (in this game) simply as a means to getting Legendary Armor. I do not care 'git gud' at raiding if the only reason to do it is the Legendary Armor. Once I had the Legendary Armor, why would I go back? What reason do I have to go into raids? To play with friends? To teach new people how to do the raid? Why?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@"Mungo Zen.9364" said:How is this thread 9 pages long with only a handful of actual suggestions? Y'all do like complaining to each other about stuff that has nothing to do with anything.

I made a suggestion on page one that didn't garner any attention, but also hasn't been suggested by anyone else I can see: incentivize raiders with more loot

My original suggestion focused on having Veterans support New players by offering the Vets rewards for bringing new players. However, it can just be simplified down to "make raiding farmable with the similar Gold per Hour as OW Metas like Silverwastes".

We don't need easier raids. We need a reason for players to go back again and again after they have farmed the Legendary Armor and Achievements. I would opine that if you removed all the current rewards from raids, and made them farmable at 40+ Gold per hour in random junk, you would have many more players in them.

I mentioned improving the liquid/monetary rewards once or twice to be comparable to other areas in PvE as a means to increase participation but got shot down over the insistence that the only way to bring new players into raids would be an easy mode with access to the legendary armor.

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:no one is here to get 'easier' leg armor

haha, now that's a lie. I'm not saying it's necessarily you, but there are easly a few people that are rather obvious about that. You can keep pretending [about those people] otherwise if that somehow helps your case, w/e works for you. One way or another, what you've just said is easly false.mostly me and Obtena at this point

When I'm talking about "this thread", I'm talking about "this thread", so "mostly at this point" is irrelevant seeing how "at this point" is related to the overal forum participation frequency more than anything else. Also based on those people "anything that's not lege for easy mode is bad!!1" type of approach. Also based on the fact that "lege for easy mode" could -IF at all- increase participation ONLY MOMENTARILY, so it's irrelevant as an argument or plan for long term "raid-saving" and connecting it to creation of new encounters. And yet... some people will continue ignoring that fact for the reasons known only to them, but for sure those reasons won't have anything to do with actually "saving the raids".

[Blaeys.3102]

To understand the reasoning, you just have to look at the competition. There are MMOs that place a heavy emphasis on raiding as the primary PVE endgame experience.  To keep healthy interest, they put out quarterly raids with multiple difficulty tiers aligned with gear progression (leading to the constant race for the new shiny). This creates a never ending ladder for players to climb - and, eventually, lower difficulty raids for people with less dedication/skill/time/build focus/etc.

 

There are a lot of reasons this model doesnt work in GW2 - starting with no gear progression (thank the heavens).  The result is that GW2 raids were never going to have the longevity they needed to survive.  Even adding new rewards would only be a temporary fix (even sell-able rewards like mystic coins would eventually result in devaluation from flooding the market).

 

I know a lot of people dont want to hear this, but raids in their current form will never survive in the current GW2 game model - and drastically changing that model would risk alienating the people who do keep coming back for things like open world and story. They were doomed to fail from the start, even if they did enjoy a short window of intense popularity. The core experience of GW2 was developed to position almost completely opposite the more raid intense MMOs out there. Force fitting raids the way they did into that model was ill planned and unsustainable.

 

We would be better off discussing and suggesting other ways they could offer challenging experiences into the game - ways that fit with the core identity GW2 was built around.

[WindBlade.8749]

7 hours ago, Blaeys.3102 said:

To understand the reasoning, you just have to look at the competition. There are MMOs that place a heavy emphasis on raiding as the primary PVE endgame experience.  To keep healthy interest, they put out quarterly raids with multiple difficulty tiers aligned with gear progression (leading to the constant race for the new shiny). This creates a never ending ladder for players to climb - and, eventually, lower difficulty raids for people with less dedication/skill/time/build focus/etc.

 

There are a lot of reasons this model doesnt work in GW2 - starting with no gear progression (thank the heavens).  The result is that GW2 raids were never going to have the longevity they needed to survive.  Even adding new rewards would only be a temporary fix (even sell-able rewards like mystic coins would eventually result in devaluation from flooding the market).

 

I know a lot of people dont want to hear this, but raids in their current form will never survive in the current GW2 game model - and drastically changing that model would risk alienating the people who do keep coming back for things like open world and story. They were doomed to fail from the start, even if they did enjoy a short window of intense popularity. The core experience of GW2 was developed to position almost completely opposite the more raid intense MMOs out there. Force fitting raids the way they did into that model was ill planned and unsustainable.

 

We would be better off discussing and suggesting other ways they could offer challenging experiences into the game - ways that fit with the core identity GW2 was built around.

i don't care the way they deliver what i want is a 10 man challenging content which i can replay when i want and still have rewards for doing, for god ffxiv have really good raids (even if they are nothing like gw2 raids, gw2 should never have called raids "raids" since they are their own things) but i hate the fact that there is a powercreep in stuff, you want to do the olds raids ? well too bad nobody do them anymore suck to be a newbie there take your unsych version which make you one shot the boss.

 

i like the content of the raids, as long they keep the new contents similar i don't care  how they deliver it, make tier difficulty, make anything you want i just want cool challenging 10 mans contents which use the unique meca of gw2 at his fullest (and the power of specs to)

Edited April 30, 2021 by WindBlade.8749

[Mungo Zen.9364]

On 4/21/2021 at 10:05 AM, Ayrilana.1396 said:

I mentioned improving the liquid/monetary rewards once or twice to be comparable to other areas in PvE as a means to increase participation but got shot down over the insistence that the only way to bring new players into raids would be an easy mode with access to the legendary armor.

 

I find it funny that the recent patch notes suggest that Anet do care about raiding since they adjusted the viability of several professions with raids in mind specifically (who knows if this will reverberate into Fractals or other Meta).

 

Does this mean we are going to see some changes or additions to raiding with the Expansion?  I don't think so, but they have been pretty tight on what is coming, so anything is possible.

[Firebeard.1746]

On 4/21/2021 at 10:05 AM, Ayrilana.1396 said:

I mentioned improving the liquid/monetary rewards once or twice to be comparable to other areas in PvE as a means to increase participation but got shot down over the insistence that the only way to bring new players into raids would be an easy mode with access to the legendary armor.

The raw rewards are fine, probably too much if you have a static that can reliably clear it, if you wanted to increase participation this way, you'd need to add it to the magnetite/gaeting from wipes. Or better yet, give said rewards for helping people clear it you haven't yet after you have cleared it that week, though they'd need a way for guaranteeing people aren't using smurf accounts to game this. I think rewards for wiping don't work. Magnitite and Gaeting are still useful.

You also didn't exactly come in here swinging with this suggestion IIRC

Edited May 1, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Ayrilana.1396]

25 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The raw rewards are fine, probably too much if you have a static that can reliably clear it, if you wanted to increase participation this way, you'd need to add it to the magnetite/gaeting from wipes. Or better yet, give said rewards for helping people clear it you haven't yet after you have cleared it that week, though they'd need a way for guaranteeing people aren't using smurf accounts to game this. I think rewards for wiping don't work. Magnitite and Gaeting are still useful.

You also didn't exactly come in here swinging with this suggestion IIRC

 

Actually, the raw rewards are not fine.  The rewards are amongst the worst in PvE.

 

It was my second post in this thread.  The first was saying what you included in your OP as being a good way to kill raids.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[Firebeard.1746]

5 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Actually, the raw rewards are not fine.  The rewards are amongst the worst in PvE.

 

It was my second post in this thread.  The first was saying what you included in your OP as being a good way to kill raids.

1) No they're not. The best meta farms are 22g/hr INCLUDING MATERIAL CONVERSIONS. which often take a significant amount of time. You could easily get that in RAW GOLD with a really high-end group that knows what they're doing in raids (if not, it'd be something close). This isn't including selling Ascended mats that often drop, + the exotics. Also Magnetite and Gaeting crystals can be converted to gold as well. (I believe it's by selling the infusions, not 100% but I know someone told me they did it somehow). If you're including conversions raids handily destroy pretty much any other content with a static that can get reliable clears. Fractals are probably the only thing that might be competitive. The real thing that hampers raids is their puggability which is a symptom of the mechanic design, not the difficulty (as some strikes are actually more difficult in terms of effort per player than some raids, yet are pugged far more often with lax group comps), any player with a brain would know they're worth it in a static, but that's exactly the problem. This game isn't catered to the types of people that can make a static. Even my WvW raids only work because it doesn't matter when I show up, my reward is the same and my guild leaders run for a long time.

2) Yes, and only because I asked you to suggest something, because you didn't to start out with. Remember that?

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Ayrilana.1396]

19 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

1) No they're not. The best meta farms are 22g/hr INCLUDING MATERIAL CONVERSIONS. which often take a significant amount of time. You could easily get that in RAW GOLD with a really high-end group that knows what they're doing in raids. This isn't including selling Ascended mats that often drop, + the exotics. Also Magnetite and Gaeting crystals can be converted to gold as well. (I believe it's by selling the infusions, not 100% but I know someone told me they did it somehow). If you're including conversions raids handily destroy pretty much any other content with a static that can get reliable clears.

2) Yes, and only because I asked you to suggest something, because you didn't to start out with. Remember that?

 

1) You may want to take another look.  The g/hr in raids is not anywhere near the best farms elsewhere in the game.  Also, ascended mats don't drop in raids...   https://fast.farming-community.eu/

 

I also forgot to include that my second post mentioned rewards which matched the effort.  The rewards in this game are inversely proportional to the challenge. 

 

2) I believe that I did make other suggestions but let's not forget that you said "you also didn't exactly come in here swinging with this suggestion IIRC" which was wrong.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[Firebeard.1746]

16 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

1) You may want to take another look.  The g/hr in raids is not anywhere near the best farms elsewhere in the game.  Also, ascended mats don't drop in raids...   https://fast.farming-community.eu/

 

2) I believe that I did make other suggestions but let's not forget that you said "you also didn't exactly come in here swinging with this suggestion IIRC" which was wrong.

 

1) you actually aren't looking closely. The raw profit of those metas is usually lower (in fact only ONE beats the top raid encounters) and the /hr conversions is assuming you can spam them, which you can't. A normal player will have downtime transitioning between the events anyway which isn't accounted for. Also those maths assume an optimized group that can work efficiently, which is even more difficult to pull for most metas than raids, as it requires more people. I know I've received some after a kill (looking it up, I guess it's one-time only attached to achieves, my bad). But even if you count the value of the ascended gear that can drop, it's still massive as well.

2) Wait so you're saying that you criticizing my original idea, and then only offering a suggestion after explicitly being asked is "coming in here swinging"? doesn't sound like it.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Ayrilana.1396]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

1) you actually aren't looking closely. The raw profit of those metas is usually lower (in fact only ONE beats the top raid encounters) and then /hr conversions is assuming you can spam them, which you can't. A normal player will have downtime transitioning between the events anyway which isn't accounted for. Also those maths assume an optimized group that can work efficiently, which is even more difficult to pull for metas than raids, as it requires more people. You also lied about ascended mats, I know I've received some after a kill.

2) Wait so you're saying that you criticizing my original idea, and then only offering a suggestion after explicitly being asked is "coming in here swinging"? doesn't sound like it.

 

Do you even know how much people make from raids?  You're also being biased as you're applying a double standard.  You're making the g/hr for open world events being lower because of downtime but not applying the same against raids.

[Firebeard.1746]

1 minute ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Do you even know how much people make from raids?  You're also being biased as you're applying a double standard.  You're making the g/hr for open world events being lower because of downtime but not applying the same against raids.

So you're saying having to wait for a timer is the same as just walking to the next encounter? Doesn't sound like it to me, you're just being contrary to be contrary.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Ayrilana.1396]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

So you're saying having to wait for a timer is the same as just walking to the next encounter? Doesn't sound like it to me, you're just being contrary to be contrary.

 

I'll ask again:  Do you know how much the normal raider makes in fractals?

 

I say "normal" because that's the standard that you're using for open world farms.

[Firebeard.1746]

5 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

I'll ask again:  Do you know how much the normal raider makes in fractals?

 

I say "normal" because that's the standard that you're using for open world farms.

I'm not even sure why you're asking about raiders in fractals. Pretty sure the last time I did dragonfall it was 40 mins-1hr for the whole meta, far more than the 19 mins clocked on the site you linked. I also used the numbers from you link to reason about it with you here.

O answering from the previous post, people in this forum have quoted 65 gold for 3 hours of raiding, at least I remember that from a thread that you were probably on as well. Ironically enough, at the time I was suggesting better rewards and the person was saying "while I appreciate it, I definitely don't need them".

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Ayrilana.1396]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm not even sure why you're asking about raiders in fractals. Pretty sure the last time I did dragonfall it was 40 mins-1hr for the whole meta, far more than the 19 mins clocked on the site you linked. I also used the numbers from you link to reason about it with you here.

O answering from the previous post, people in this forum have quoted 65 gold for 3 hours of raiding, at least I remember that from a thread that you were probably on as well.

 

Sorry.  I meant how much "normal" raiders make in raids. 

 

The website lists one hour and forty one minutes for Drizzlewood so I don't know where you got the nineteen minutes from.

 

Clearing raids in three hours is something that's done on the top end.  The "normal" raider won't clear that quickly making their g/hr significantly less. 

[Firebeard.1746]

1 minute ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Sorry.  I meant how much "normal" raiders make in raids. 

 

The website lists one hour and forty one minutes for Drizzlewood so I don't know where you got the nineteen minutes from.

 

Clearing raids in three hours is something that's done on the top end.  The "normal" raider won't clear that quickly making their g/hr significantly less. 

I never mentioned drizzlewood, I was criticizing the timers from the site as it relates to dragonfall. Are you okay? I'm merely pointing out it takes more work to pull off those times reliably in meta than a raid because of the number of people involved, but even so, raids don't have the wait-for-timer problem. So comparing apples to apples, high end of either, raids are definitely more efficient.

[Ayrilana.1396]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I never mentioned drizzlewood, I was criticizing the timers from the site as it relates to dragonfall. Are you okay? I'm merely pointing out it takes more work to pull off those times reliably in meta than a raid because of the number of people involved, but even so, raids don't have the wait-for-timer problem. So comparing apples to apples, high end of either, raids are definitely more efficient.

 

My mistake again.  I read it as Drizzlewood it seems.  Dragonfall is listed as two hours and nineteen minutes.  Perhaps there's an issue with your browser and the first part was cut off.

 

The wait for timer isn't applicable for many of the rates as they cover an entire timespan of doing the farm rather than just taking the time is takes to do individual parts and summing just those up.  It's more difficult for normal raiders to pull off a completion time is raids than it is to complete farms quicker.

 

The impact that time plays in g/hr is significantly more pronounced in raids than open world farms.    You listed 65G over 3 hours which comes shy of 22G/hr.  AT 4 hours that drops to slightly above 16G/hr.  At 5 hours that drops further to 13G/hr.  The difference in completion times between top-end raiders and "normal" raiders is significantly more pronounced that the time completion difference between top-end PvE farmers and "normal" farmers.

 

I can't remember if I further elaborated on my second post in this thread but I will here anyway.  Increasing the monetary/liquid rewards will increase participation and especially if it's done so that this type of reward is daily instead of weekly like with fractal.  This gives raiders more reasons to do raids after the initial full clear.  It would also help to balance the rewards to better match the challenge which means an increase.

[Firebeard.1746]

19 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

gonfall is listed as two hours and nineteen minutes.  Perhaps there's an issue with your browser and the first part was cut off.

 

The wait for timer isn't applicable for many of the rates as they cover an entire timespan of doing the farm rather than just taking the time is takes to do individual parts and summing just those up.  It's more difficult for normal raiders to pull off a completion time is raids than it is to complete farms quicker.

 

The impact that time plays in g/hr is significantly more pronounced in raids than open world farms.    You listed 65G over 3 hours which comes shy of 22G/hr.  AT 4 hours that drops to slightly above 16G/hr.  At 5 hours that drops further to 13G/hr.  The difference in completion times between top-end raiders and "normal" raiders is significantly more pronounced that the time completion difference between top-end PvE farmers and "normal" farmers.

 

I can't remember if I further elaborated on my second post in this thread but I will here anyway.  Increasing the monetary/liquid rewards will increase participation and especially if it's done so that this type of reward is daily instead of weekly like with fractal.  This gives raiders more reasons to do raids after the initial f

1) Pretty sure there's not an issue with my browser as the raw profit is clocked at 14g, which wouldn't check out with the 45g/hr noted by the "The Battle of Dragonfall Meta & Champtrain (Dragonfall)" (3rd from top at time of post, in the dailies section under "metas" )

2) No they don't in fact the very same entry has a hand-wavy "24 mistborn keys required" which in and of itself requires time to farm. I specifically picked this meta because it has the highest raw profit, and therefore should be the least affected by timers, but it's an interesting little asterisk that I didn't notice at first. There's been a lot of those as I've tried using this site.

Maybe, but I feel like you'd need to convince people to step outside of their static (or outside of really experienced circles), otherwise the same people will just play them more. My 2cents.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Ayrilana.1396]

30 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

1) Pretty sure there's not an issue with my browser as the raw profit is clocked at 14g, which wouldn't check out with the 45g/hr noted by the "The Battle of Dragonfall Meta & Champtrain (Dragonfall)" (3rd from top at time of post, in the dailies section under "metas" )

2) No they don't in fact the very same entry has a hand-wavy "24 mistborn keys required" which in and of itself requires time to farm. I specifically picked this meta because it has the highest raw profit, and therefore should be the least affected by timers, but it's an interesting little asterisk that I didn't notice at first. There's been a lot of those as I've tried using this site.

Maybe, but I feel like you'd need to convince people to step outside of their static (or outside of really experienced circles), otherwise the same people will just play them more. My 2cents.

 

There has to be something going on with your browser as it clearly shows 28.84G/hr for Dragonfall with a farm duration of 2 hours and 19 minutes.  Go to the General Farming tab.  Using the daily tab is misleading as it's showing the profitability of a meta event rather than the entire farming process.

 

 

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

There has to be something going on with your browser as it clearly shows 28.84G/hr for Dragonfall with a farm duration of 2 hours and 19 minutes.  Go to the General Farming tab.  Using the daily tab is misleading as it's showing the profitability of a meta event rather than the entire farming process.

 

 

Okay so we were looking at different tabs. I bet fewer people meet all of these requirements & pull this off than exp statics (mind you, you have to build this with 49+ other people):

 

Quote

 

The farmtrain table represents benchmark recordings with our [fast] guild. Our primary goals are efficiency, constant movement and maximum profit.
[fast] farmtrains also come with the expectation that a significant part of the squad meet following requirements to achieve the average gold per hour values below:

• Following an optimized rotation and tips / tricks mentioned in the Farming Guides: https://fast.farming-community.eu/farming/guides/
• DPS Killing bosses fast & efficiently with our Farming Builds: https://fast.farming-community.eu/farming/builds/
• Required masteries
• Required and recommended mounts
• Required Karmic Retribution and/or other map-specific buffs
• Recommended Guild Buff
• Recommended Permanent or Karmic Tools: https://fast.farming-community.eu/gathering/karmic-tools or https://fast.farming-community.eu/gathering/glyphs
• Gourmet Training Achievement unlocked (only Cook 425, Sylvari and Charr required) in order to loot cultivated seeds and cut of quality meat!

Gold per hour values will vary if you compare LFG runs with [fast] runs due to aforementioned requirements.

 

That being said you do make a valid point that if someone is uber farming then maybe they would do this over raiding if they already had all the legendaries. I think that any buffs in rewards should involve helping people who are less experienced learn and experience the content, otherwise it's not really growing the player base.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[maddoctor.2738]

Raids don't have good liquid rewards, in fact they are garbage. Even with the best of the best group, they reward only once per week, daily runs of Drizzlewood, Dragonfall or Silverwastes will net a much higher amount of gold. And that assumes the best of the best that can do full clears. What about those who cannot full clear? What about those that don't even make enough for the food they used because they didn't actually kill enough bosses? Raids make lots of money because good statics clear all raid wings every Monday is not an argument.

 

I don't get this insistance on saying that Raid liquid rewards are fine because "with a good static you will get a lot of gold". And with a "good static" you will be getting 100 mystic coins +500 gold from the Monthly PVP tournaments and even more from the daily pvp tournaments (that you will have to win anyway to get to the monthly) but I don't think anyone in the right mind will say that pvp has amazing liquid rewards.

 

Edit: Furthermore, we are in a thread about increasing participation, this is about bringing new players into Raids. Take random Player A that runs Drizzlewood, Dragonfall and Silverwastes earning a lot of gold every run, and even more weekly. All while simply semi-afk leeching. What's the incentive for this player to go and participate in content like Raids, that to give them the same kind of liquid rewards would take months, and that's assuming they get "good enough" first.

 

The only draw here are the unique rewards (like Legendary Armor) but even that will eventually backfire. Once that same Player A gets their Legendary Armor they will see if they got to a level where it's worth it running Raids compared to Drizzlewood, and if it's not they'll lose another incentive to keep on raiding after getting the unique rewards they want.

 

Finally Raiders are supposed to be a tiny minority. Raiders in perfect statics that can full clear in 2 hours are a minority of that minority. I'm certain increasing the rewards of Raids so everyone gets something more for their time/effort wouldn't upset the overall balance of the economy as much because some tiny minority, of a tiny minority, will get even better rewards.

Edited May 2, 2021 by maddoctor.2738

[Ayrilana.1396]

8 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Okay so we were looking at different tabs. I bet fewer people meet all of these requirements & pull this off than exp statics (mind you, you have to build this with 49+ other people):

 

That being said you do make a valid point that if someone is uber farming then maybe they would do this over raiding if they already had all the legendaries. I think that any buffs in rewards should involve helping people who are less experienced learn and experience the content, otherwise it's not really growing the player base.

 

Keep in mind that this game has scaling and practically nothing requires 49+ people.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Keep in mind that this game has scaling and practically nothing requires 49+ people.

Keep in mind that a number of casual players playing their own way on all those maps can often significantly impact the effectiveness of the "professional" farmers. So, yeah, for those theoretical numbers you often do need everyone on map to be involved and well-knowing what they should do.

 

Typical players running the same farm but not being 100% efficient about it end up with lower gold/h values (often significantly lower - i.e for Silverwastes, at the time when the expected return was around 20g/h or more, most players could get only as much as maybe 10g/h or even less).

 

The differences in ow farm content can be as big as in instanced one.

[Ayrilana.1396]

32 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Keep in mind that a number of casual players playing their own way on all those maps can often significantly impact the effectiveness of the "professional" farmers. So, yeah, for those theoretical numbers you often do need everyone on map to be involved and well-knowing what they should do.

 

Typical players running the same farm but not being 100% efficient about it end up with lower gold/h values (often significantly lower - i.e for Silverwastes, at the time when the expected return was around 20g/h or more, most players could get only as much as maybe 10g/h or even less).

 

The differences in ow farm content can be as big as in instanced one.

 

This still doesn't dispute that it's not required to have 49+ players as I had stated.  Differences in ow farm content versus raids are not likely to be the same as I've stated once or twice already.  Inefficiencies in ow farms tend to be in the minutes while inefficiencies in raids can go into the hours.  You can easily take an extra hour in raids due to wipes which you're unlikely to take as much of a time loss in a farm cycle due to inefficiencies.