mirage .

[Kodama.6453]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

Immob should be fine, since the only reason you can't dodge during immob is that you can't move and dodge is movement. This doesn't apply to mirage cloak, since the movement component of it is removed.But fear is considered a disable for all intents and purposes, so dodging while feared shouldn't be allowed.

Depends on if the cleanse from the trait would trigger before or after the evade. It triggers before the evade, so dodging while feared should indeed cleanse fear.

The wording is "dodging removes conditions", so from this wording, the order should be that you have to dodge first, then the cleanse happens.

Quite amusing that you guys consider this "not to be a strong mechanic", yet you are fighting over letting it remove fear, which is CC.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

Immob should be fine, since the only reason you can't dodge during immob is that you can't move and dodge is movement. This doesn't apply to mirage cloak, since the movement component of it is removed.But fear is considered a disable for all intents and purposes, so dodging while feared shouldn't be allowed.

Depends on if the cleanse from the trait would trigger before or after the evade. It triggers before the evade, so dodging while feared should indeed cleanse fear.

The wording is "

dodging

removes conditions", so from this wording, the order should be that you have to dodge first, then the cleanse happens.

Quite amusing that you guys consider this "not to be a strong mechanic", yet you are fighting over letting it remove fear, which is CC.

turns out having one of the only decend cleanses be able to remove fear is important, you know. with 2-3 necros per team in ranked lol

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

Immob should be fine, since the only reason you can't dodge during immob is that you can't move and dodge is movement. This doesn't apply to mirage cloak, since the movement component of it is removed.But fear is considered a disable for all intents and purposes, so dodging while feared shouldn't be allowed.

Depends on if the cleanse from the trait would trigger before or after the evade. It triggers before the evade, so dodging while feared should indeed cleanse fear.

The wording is "

dodging

removes conditions", so from this wording, the order should be that you have to dodge first, then the cleanse happens.

Quite amusing that you guys consider this "not to be a strong mechanic", yet you are fighting over letting it remove fear, which is CC.

turns out having one of the only decend cleanses be able to remove fear is important, you know. with 2-3 necros per team in ranked lol

Imagine trying to use utility skill for condi cleanse or stunbreak like every single other class in the game, old fashioned af I think.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

Immob should be fine, since the only reason you can't dodge during immob is that you can't move and dodge is movement. This doesn't apply to mirage cloak, since the movement component of it is removed.But fear is considered a disable for all intents and purposes, so dodging while feared shouldn't be allowed.

Depends on if the cleanse from the trait would trigger before or after the evade. It triggers before the evade, so dodging while feared should indeed cleanse fear.

The wording is "

dodging

removes conditions", so from this wording, the order should be that you have to dodge first, then the cleanse happens.

Quite amusing that you guys consider this "not to be a strong mechanic", yet you are fighting over letting it remove fear, which is CC.

turns out having one of the only decend cleanses be able to remove fear is important, you know. with 2-3 necros per team in ranked lol

Imagine trying to use utility skill for condi cleanse or stunbreak like every single other class in the game, old fashioned af I think.

are you implying that other classes dont use traits for cleansing? omegalul

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

Immob should be fine, since the only reason you can't dodge during immob is that you can't move and dodge is movement. This doesn't apply to mirage cloak, since the movement component of it is removed.But fear is considered a disable for all intents and purposes, so dodging while feared shouldn't be allowed.

Depends on if the cleanse from the trait would trigger before or after the evade. It triggers before the evade, so dodging while feared should indeed cleanse fear.

The wording is "

dodging

removes conditions", so from this wording, the order should be that you have to dodge first, then the cleanse happens.

Quite amusing that you guys consider this "not to be a strong mechanic", yet you are fighting over letting it remove fear, which is CC.

turns out having one of the only decend cleanses be able to remove fear is important, you know. with 2-3 necros per team in ranked lol

Imagine trying to use utility skill for condi cleanse or stunbreak like every single other class in the game, old fashioned af I think.

are you implying that other classes dont use traits for cleansing? omegalul

Hmm, looks like I've overestimated you a bit too much, my bad.Are you implying, that mesmer doesn't have other tools to deal with condi, than broken Mirage Cloak?I'll give you a hint why it's broken mechanic:Is Water Evasive Arcana capable of removing "FEAR"? (without stab ofc)

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I say this tentatively because there are still mirages out there that can wipe you off the map. Both condi and power. It's not impossible or even improbable.

Imagine if this standard were applied to all classes. :)

[Leonidrex.5649]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

Immob should be fine, since the only reason you can't dodge during immob is that you can't move and dodge is movement. This doesn't apply to mirage cloak, since the movement component of it is removed.But fear is considered a disable for all intents and purposes, so dodging while feared shouldn't be allowed.

Depends on if the cleanse from the trait would trigger before or after the evade. It triggers before the evade, so dodging while feared should indeed cleanse fear.

The wording is "

dodging

removes conditions", so from this wording, the order should be that you have to dodge first, then the cleanse happens.

Quite amusing that you guys consider this "not to be a strong mechanic", yet you are fighting over letting it remove fear, which is CC.

turns out having one of the only decend cleanses be able to remove fear is important, you know. with 2-3 necros per team in ranked lol

Imagine trying to use utility skill for condi cleanse or stunbreak like every single other class in the game, old fashioned af I think.

are you implying that other classes dont use traits for cleansing? omegalul

Hmm, looks like I've overestimated you a bit too much, my bad.Are you implying, that mesmer doesn't have other tools to deal with condi, than broken Mirage Cloak?I'll give you a hint why it's broken mechanic:Is Water Evasive Arcana capable of removing "FEAR"? (without stab ofc)

so are you implying that elite specialisation mechanic works differently then core trait from another class?why cant my mesmer staff transmute chaos aura and ele can ? REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

Immob should be fine, since the only reason you can't dodge during immob is that you can't move and dodge is movement. This doesn't apply to mirage cloak, since the movement component of it is removed.But fear is considered a disable for all intents and purposes, so dodging while feared shouldn't be allowed.

Depends on if the cleanse from the trait would trigger before or after the evade. It triggers before the evade, so dodging while feared should indeed cleanse fear.

The wording is "

dodging

removes conditions", so from this wording, the order should be that you have to dodge first, then the cleanse happens.

Quite amusing that you guys consider this "not to be a strong mechanic", yet you are fighting over letting it remove fear, which is CC.

turns out having one of the only decend cleanses be able to remove fear is important, you know. with 2-3 necros per team in ranked lol

Imagine trying to use utility skill for condi cleanse or stunbreak like every single other class in the game, old fashioned af I think.

are you implying that other classes dont use traits for cleansing? omegalul

Hmm, looks like I've overestimated you a bit too much, my bad.Are you implying, that mesmer doesn't have other tools to deal with condi, than broken Mirage Cloak?I'll give you a hint why it's broken mechanic:Is Water Evasive Arcana capable of removing "FEAR"? (without stab ofc)

so are you implying that elite specialisation mechanic works differently then core trait from another class?why cant my mesmer staff transmute chaos aura and ele can ? REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Funny, is your dodge some new class mechanic? Does it use different source of "energy" for it to work than every other class in the game? Is different from your core? Oh, it's not! It have different animation, but it's still D O D G E, my my.Stop it, Teef have as well "DoDgE" mechanic and still can't remove Fear or dodge while being under cc without using stun break.Mirage class mechanic is Ambush, dodge is just an activator for it and nothing beside that, A-net created core+ and nothing beside that, AGAIN.We can start talking about your "class mechanics" when your F1-F4 skills will work completely different than your core ones, so far you don't have any kind of unique mechanic beside that Ambush meme.I'm fine with giving transmute to chaos aura to mesmers staff, it's aura skill alone so it should be fair to give the same treatment to it, though knowing A-net they may even screw something like that...

[Kodama.6453]

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:turns out having one of the only decend cleanses be able to remove fear is important, you know. with 2-3 necros per team in ranked lol

Turns out you are cherry picking here.

Fear is a disabling effect. If CC is considered to prevent your dodge with this change, then the trait that makes dodges remove conditions simply shouldn't work against fear. I also can't cleanse fear with Elixir C, since it isn't a stunbreak. And I can't claim that I should be able to just by saying "you know, it's important for me to be able to cleanse fear with it because there are many necros!".If CC prevents you to dodge, then your dodge can't cleanse.

Either you are willing to let CC stop you dodging or you are not. You can't be like "I am fine with not being able to dodge, but of course just if you let me choose during which CCs I can't, giving me some special exclusions from the rule because I want it!".It's about being consequent. If you say you are fine with CCs disabling your dodge, then this should include effects like fear and taunt as well.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:turns out having one of the only decend cleanses be able to remove fear is important, you know. with 2-3 necros per team in ranked lol

Turns out you are cherry picking here.

Fear is a disabling effect. If CC is considered to prevent your dodge with this change, then the trait that makes dodges remove conditions

simply shouldn't work against fear

. I also can't cleanse fear with Elixir C, since it isn't a stunbreak. And I can't claim that I should be able to just by saying "you know, it's important for me to be able to cleanse fear with it because there are many necros!".If CC prevents you to dodge, then your dodge can't cleanse.

Either you are willing to let CC stop you dodging or you are not. You can't be like "I am fine with not being able to dodge, but of course just if you let me choose during

which

CCs I can't, giving me some special exclusions from the rule because I want it!".It's about being consequent. If you say you are fine with CCs disabling your dodge, then this should include effects like fear and taunt as well.

and all of it doesnt matter, as EM is the main and preety much ONLY cleanse used, if its not able to remove fear it will not be used, people will use mantra, or go inspiration to find something that actually work, and then take IH instead, and we will be back at square 1 with WEEE IH passive clone WEEEE

@TrollingDemigod.3041Mirage is an elite specialization for the mesmer. It grants mesmers access to axes, ambush and deception skills, and replaces the mesmer's dodge ability with Mirage Cloak.from wikimesmer mechanic is : AXE, DECEPTIONS, AMBUSHES, MIRAGE CLOAKwow turns out mirage cloak IS an actual mechanic, it works differently then a dodge.Saying that MC isnt a mechanic cuz it uses same endurance is like saying berserker doesnt have a different mechanic since it uses adrenaline too Pepega

@Kodama.6453nowhere did I say I am not fine with it NOT removing fear, it would just make the trait shit that almost nobody would use, the only time it would be worth using is when mesmer can afford to take another " backbone " cleans for fear specifically, or massive ammount of ways to remove stuns like 3 stunbreakes and it will be even bigger cancer then dodging while stunnedFor all the complaining that mirage doesnt get punished for getting stunned since it can dodge, mirage actually gets punished more then most classes as it cant afford to take as many ways to remove stuns and has to rely on gimmicks instead

[Quadox.7834]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Give 2nd dodge back but remove F4?

its like telling thief that they can get reduced ini for sb5 back but in return remove shadowstep from the game, 1 step forward, 2 steps back

The suggestion before, tho: Give second dodge back, but remove ability to dodge while CCed.You claim that the ability to dodge while being CCed isn't powerful to begin with, so this should be a desirable trade for you, shouldn't it?

while cced, yes.but if you cant dodge while immobed/feard to remove those with EM that could be a nerf.removing dodge during stun/knockback/launch would be fine

Immob should be fine, since the only reason you can't dodge during immob is that you can't move and dodge is movement. This doesn't apply to mirage cloak, since the movement component of it is removed.But fear is considered a disable for all intents and purposes, so dodging while feared shouldn't be allowed.

Depends on if the cleanse from the trait would trigger before or after the evade. It triggers before the evade, so dodging while feared should indeed cleanse fear.

The wording is "

dodging

removes conditions", so from this wording, the order should be that you have to dodge first, then the cleanse happens.

Quite amusing that you guys consider this "not to be a strong mechanic", yet you are fighting over letting it remove fear, which is CC.

turns out having one of the only decend cleanses be able to remove fear is important, you know. with 2-3 necros per team in ranked lol

Imagine trying to use utility skill for condi cleanse or stunbreak like every single other class in the game, old fashioned af I think.

are you implying that other classes dont use traits for cleansing? omegalul

Hmm, looks like I've overestimated you a bit too much, my bad.Are you implying, that mesmer doesn't have other tools to deal with condi, than broken Mirage Cloak?I'll give you a hint why it's broken mechanic:Is Water Evasive Arcana capable of removing "FEAR"? (without stab ofc)

is elusive mind capable of doing 2 burn on dodge and blast finisher on dodge and heal on dodge and blind on dodge? clown.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

stop multi quoting me pls, don't be lazy and delete previous posters who are no longer part of the convo

[felix.2386]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Mes/Chrono/Mirage is actually in the best spot it's been... ever... I'd say.

Surprisingly.

Now if we can do this:

1. Buff War a tiiiiny bit
2. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Revs
3. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Weaver
4. Address Rune of Sanct and Blood Bank on Scourge

Honestly we'd have the most balanced meta we've seen in years.

warrior is already strong as kitten, dont know what you want to buff.

strong to noobs yea, warrior is the most predictable spec in the entire game, predicting a warrior is easier than predicting what color you gonna get when you mix black and white.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@fel> @felix.2386 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Mes/Chrono/Mirage is actually in the best spot it's been... ever... I'd say.

Surprisingly.

Now if we can do this:

1. Buff War a tiiiiny bit
2. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Revs
3. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Weaver
4. Address Rune of Sanct and Blood Bank on Scourge

Honestly we'd have the most balanced meta we've seen in years.

warrior is already strong as kitten, dont know what you want to buff.

strong to noobs yea, warrior is the most predictable spec in the entire game, predicting a warrior is easier than predicting what color you gonna get when you mix black and white.

nope, warrior is weak for nubs, as they dont understand how to use it properly and die like idiots, its like this one guy saying warrior cant stay on point or kite, while in reality warrior has one of if not the best kiting in the game.you drop useless words like "predictable", it doesnt matter, every class is predictable

[otto.5684]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Give Mirage 2 dodge rolls back.Nerf ambush damage from clones.

To me the problem was never that Mirage was slippery, it was that the ambush damaging extending from clones with IH is too high.

Exactly. this was pointed out like 3 years ago. Do not let clones apply condi damage. It is bad design even in pve. Problem solved. But no, Anet has to keep fucking with every other aspect of the class, except the actual issue.

[Quadox.7834]

@otto.5684 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Give Mirage 2 dodge rolls back.Nerf ambush damage from clones.

To me the problem was never that Mirage was slippery, it was that the ambush damaging extending from clones with IH is too high.

Exactly. this was pointed out like 3 years ago. Do not let clones apply condi damage. It is bad design even in pve. Problem solved. But no, Anet has to keep kitten with every other aspect of the class, except the actual issue.

I mean you are wrong, it's fine for clones to do some condi dmg on ambushes. just not on regular autos. Like power (see: gs).

[Salt Mode.3780]

At this point just don't touch mesmers. Whenever they touch mesmers we lose build diversity.

[Quadox.7834]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:turns out having one of the only decend cleanses be able to remove fear is important, you know. with 2-3 necros per team in ranked lol

Turns out you are cherry picking here.

Fear is a disabling effect. If CC is considered to prevent your dodge with this change, then the trait that makes dodges remove conditions

simply shouldn't work against fear

. I also can't cleanse fear with Elixir C, since it isn't a stunbreak. And I can't claim that I should be able to just by saying "you know, it's important for me to be able to cleanse fear with it because there are many necros!".If CC prevents you to dodge, then your dodge can't cleanse.You can't cleanse fear with elixir c because it cleanses at the end of the cast time. EM cleanses at the start, like daredevil dash cleanses immob at the start.

Either you are willing to let CC stop you dodging or you are not. You can't be like "I am fine with not being able to dodge, but of course just if you let me choose during

which

CCs I can't, giving me some special exclusions from the rule because I want it!".It's about being consequent. If you say you are fine with CCs disabling your dodge, then this should include effects like fear and taunt as well.

It's called consistent. I'm going to guess you are swedish or something, where "konsekvent" means what you think consequent does.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I say this tentatively because there are

still mirages out there that can wipe you off the map.

Both condi and power. It's not impossible or even improbable.

Imagine if this standard were applied to all classes. :)

Go for it. We're almost already there anyway.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Give Mirage 2 dodge rolls back.Nerf ambush damage from clones.

To me the problem was never that Mirage was slippery, it was that the ambush damaging extending from clones with IH is too high.

Exactly. this was pointed out like 3 years ago. Do not let clones apply condi damage. It is bad design even in pve. Problem solved. But no, Anet has to keep kitten with every other aspect of the class, except the actual issue.

I mean you are wrong, it's fine for clones to do some condi dmg on ambushes. just not on regular autos. Like power (see: gs).

Mesmer's staff, axe, and scepter autos are balanced around the clones to provide competitive DPS. Take that away and you're looking at 300 dps autos competing with classes that do 1.5k dps ranged autos, and even with clones mesmer is way behind that. It should be rolled into the mesmer's autos so that clones aren't auto turrets, but the actual damage should go up a bit.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

you drop useless words like "predictable", it doesnt matter, every class is predictable

Not true. Warrior is one of the only classes with predictability baked in. Most other classes have surprise factors, be they stealth or adds ccing, or teleports or instant cast dazes, name your flavor. Warrior generally has multiple versions of "Oh I'm going to hit you now, better dodge". They are markedly more predictable than any other class currently in the game. He has a point.

Because of that:

nope, warrior is weak for nubs, as they dont understand how to use it properly and die like idiots

This is also not true.Warrior is technically* one of the weakest classes in the game currently. It can hit you for a lot of damage so it is 'strong' in that sense of the word, but the avenue for delivering that damage is so deliberate, telegraphed and avoidable a reasonably skilled player should be able to give them a hard time by just performing a cursory observation of their animations. If you get downed by a warrior odds are you absolutely deserve it, but a warrior main can use their class optimally and still lose because their mechanics are so blatantly obvious.Not to mention their damage is all frontloaded so blind/block is many times more effective on them, whereas other classes can ignore blind/block with minimal drop to their dps.

• Spellbreaker ameliorates this weakness somewhat because full counter can be timed in such a way that it is impossible to deal with it on reaction alone. Berserker and core do not have this advantage so they are many times weaker.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

you drop useless words like "predictable", it doesnt matter, every class is predictable

Not true. Warrior is one of the only classes with predictability baked in. Most other classes have surprise factors, be they stealth or adds ccing, or teleports or instant cast dazes, name your flavor. Warrior generally has multiple versions of "Oh I'm going to hit you now, better dodge". They are markedly more predictable than any other class currently in the game. He has a point.

Because of that:

nope, warrior is weak for nubs, as they dont understand how to use it properly and die like idiots

This is also not true.Warrior is technically* one of the weakest classes in the game currently. It can hit you for a lot of damage so it is 'strong' in that sense of the word, but the avenue for delivering that damage is so deliberate, telegraphed and avoidable a reasonably skilled player should be able to give them a hard time by just performing a cursory observation of their animations. If you get downed by a warrior odds are you absolutely deserve it, but a warrior main can use their class optimally and still lose because their mechanics are so blatantly obvious.Not to mention their damage is all frontloaded so blind/block is many times more effective on them, whereas other classes can ignore blind/block with minimal drop to their dps.

• Spellbreaker ameliorates this weakness somewhat because full counter can be timed in such a way that it is impossible to deal with it on reaction alone. Berserker and core do not have this advantage so they are many times weaker.

full counter is always dodgeable as its trigger time alone is like 0,5s.why spb is good is since it has another extra "evade" on low cd -> fullcounter, making it super easy to chain evades/blocks for extremaly long periods of time.to top it off its an evade that you have to evade so it drains resources quickly

[Aeolus.3615]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:give 2nd dodge and remove mirage cloak/ dodging while stunned

put 2nd clone back on staff 3 and make gs/ staff viable again

Or give an internal CD on mirage cloack?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:full counter is always dodgeable as its trigger time alone is like 0,5s

Granted. It is much harder to react to than everything else on Warrior's kit though. People eat full counter a hell of a lot more than anything else.

why spb is good is since it has another extra "evade" on low cd -> fullcounter, making it super easy to chain evades/blocks for extremaly long periods of time.to top it off its an evade that you have to evade so it drains resources quickly

Gonna have to disagree with you there. I don't think chaining blocks alone is what causes Spellbreaker to function properly as a melee class. I'm more inclined to believe it's a combination of lowered telegraphs and a handful of situationsthat can occur/you need to deal with if you manage to get hit by full counter, from reveal/cc from magebane to daze jamming any skills you may have needed to cast. Instead of just punishing poor habits like core warrior and berserker to do damage, Spellbreaker can create more opportunities to do damage. That's basically what warrior needs.

Also. Spellbreaker being serviceable does nothing to address the issues with Berserker or Core, and even with FC it is still exploitable in much the same way. Warrior is still weak overall.

Even putting that aside, I think it's weird that you're asserting that Spellbreaker is strong(To the point of claiming people downing on warriors don't know how to play) specifically because it gets an extra half second evade on a 12 second cooldown, and simultaneously arguing that Mirage should be given its second dodge bar back despite evasion uptime being the reason it got nerfed to begin with. If what you claim is true, then there's all the more reason to avoid (re)empowering Mirage in that way.

[otto.5684]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Give Mirage 2 dodge rolls back.Nerf ambush damage from clones.

To me the problem was never that Mirage was slippery, it was that the ambush damaging extending from clones with IH is too high.

Exactly. this was pointed out like 3 years ago. Do not let clones apply condi damage. It is bad design even in pve. Problem solved. But no, Anet has to keep kitten with every other aspect of the class, except the actual issue.

I mean you are wrong, it's fine for clones to do some condi dmg on ambushes. just not on regular autos. Like power (see: gs).

Mesmer's staff, axe, and scepter autos are balanced around the clones to provide competitive DPS. Take that away and you're looking at 300 dps autos competing with classes that do 1.5k dps ranged autos, and even with clones mesmer is way behind that. It should be rolled into the mesmer's autos so that clones aren't auto turrets, but the actual damage should go up a bit.

I was not detailed enough in my first post. I think axe is fine how it is in pve. In pvp it needs to be buffed. Since the clones are melee, the risk of them being destroyed is much higher. I agree, for staff and scepter, I much rather the damage is uploaded on the weapons (both core and mirage ambushes). This is easy for scepter. It would require a rework of staff auto.

In conclusion, the clones should function for condi Mesmer the same way they do for power Mesmer. Then we could delete vast majority of Mesmer/mirage nerfs since all of these were done specifically to balance the class around ranged clones doing damage. But this requires a lot of work and Anet has not done a single changes to classes, outside of pvp, since... July last year? And for pvp the changes are pathetic.