Necro Wars 2

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:pretty much any high damage ranged class farms necro. did necro suddenly lose all its counters recently?

No, but 2v2 and 3v3 arena quickly taught Necros how much counter play vs. everything they actually possess if one is wise enough to swap a single utility skill depending on the match they are in.

Before 2s and 3s, people largely weren't taking advantage of the tools they had. They'd just run the same exact thing every match. But now people actually swap and use things like Poison Cloud projectile reflection when threatening Rangers/Thieves are around, as one example.

2 necros cycling that on point would be brutal, but i'm guessing that rarely happens. one necro with that will quickly find himself kitten outta luck when it ends, and both deadeye and ranger can sit out of necro range auto attacking waiting for said end. it is a good utility but not much of a counter most times.

Depends on how threatening the ranged entity is. Also how much power or condi they are against.

1 Necro using Poison Cloud who is good at reading tells, can use it to counter high powered Soulbeast bursting or DE or PD Thief for his team when it matters. It's also good at countering Lich. But 2x Necros using Poison Cloud seriously shuts down projectile damage almost completely. Poison Cloud also pulses weakness so it's not a bad deal vs. a lot of power damage, but it doesn't help much vs. rando AoE condis.

When I face Necro stacks in ATs, they all always bring Poison Cloud now, almost every time. Frequent NA ATers know this is the best method to neutralize me, and it works wonders between enormous barrier stacks + the anti projectile. The Poison Cloud itself will stop the direct burst from Sic Em One Wolf Pack, and then barrier/weakness stacks stops any melee pressure I can deal before taking too much rando AoE condi and having to retreat. It just about entirely forces me into being useless in team fights.

I'd say that Poison Cloud is an average to bellow average impact utility vs. sustained damage output, but vs. large power bursts that only happen once per 30s or 60s, like the Necro's great counter the Sic Em Soulbeast, Poison Cloud is a hard counter to that type of burst. This one utility can allow Necros to kill Power Rangers in 1v1s.

Like I said though, depends on the threat level of the Soulbeast/DE/Thief in question. If the ranged entity knows how to land bursts, this is the type of jank the Necro's team is looking at all game if they don't bring a way to cull that burst:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/980279715

[mistsim.2748]

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:Just played a little ranked today to see the state of the meta.

It's as i would have expected. Scourges just changed to different amulets and doing the same thing now just with more damage.

When looking at your post history, it's clear that you play with low effort in a low tier. I'm sorry that you're not enjoying the changes, but I'll tell you that Scourges aren't "doing the same thing". Necro stacks are easily dealt with in higher ELO, so this is something that you can strive for.

As discussed, you can split them up as they lack mobility, instead of zerging mid. Pew pew rangers counter them well as they don't have any projectile hate. And Spellbreakers can lock them down to ensure easy kills.

Stop crying, and start trying.

[Puck.3697]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@FrownyClown.8402 said:

@Exile.8160 said:

@FrownyClown.8402 said:Then dont go mid??

Such help are these comment right? It really help drive an actual conversation. -_-

If you have 3 necros bombing mid and your team cant win the point you need to start taking sides and spread them out. If even then you lose its because your comp is slow or your team still couldnt win sides.

It's OK. One necro can easily tank 3 ppl since Feb. Two others can then maintain easy side.

If one necros tanking 3, either Ur teams a bunch of bunker builds or something's really wrong. Considering even a bot can make power chrono do 1 shot bursts.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:snips

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

how often do you see 2 necros cycling CPC? just wondering. soulbeast with sic em can counter it completely, or use one wolf pack + barrage to bypass it. deadeye can easily just kite behind enemy lines and snipe people off point since its pretty rare for people to 100% be on the point where there is no counter pressure (and now not really any supports to help keep them there). anyway again it is a strong utility and i don't wanna sound like i'm minimizing its impact or anything.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:snips

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

how often do you see 2 necros cycling CPC? just wondering. soulbeast with sic em can counter it completely, or use one wolf pack + barrage to bypass it. deadeye can easily just kite behind enemy lines and snipe people off point since its pretty rare for people to 100% be on the point where there is no counter pressure (and now not really any supports to help keep them there). anyway again it is a strong utility and i don't wanna sound like i'm minimizing its impact or anything.

I almost never see it, but when I do see it. it works, most people even in p2 just copy build and never change anything

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:snips

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:snips

how often do you see 2 necros cycling CPC? just wondering. soulbeast with sic em can counter it completely, or use one wolf pack + barrage to bypass it. deadeye can easily just kite behind enemy lines and snipe people off point since its pretty rare for people to 100% be on the point where there is no counter pressure (and now not really any supports to help keep them there). anyway again it is a strong utility and i don't wanna sound like i'm minimizing its impact or anything.

Well it's all more complex than that. First of all, I was being serious when I said people in NA ATs will double scourge stack and both bring CPC against me. It happens often actually. So there are two reasons why that is happening right now. First being, everyone wants/needs to use Scourge right now with and against certain comps. Second being, people identify me as a threat that can counter Necro stacks for obvious reasons. When I am in a team comp that they need to use Necro stacks against, it's a bad situation for them because I can counter their Scourges or any Necro very hard whereas none of their players can put that kind of pressure on my Necros. If they insist on running Necro stack, they have to bring CPC against me or there will be no reason to run Necros against me unless you're talking they are an MAT top 3 placement team that can get away with playing against me as Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast, and even some of those guys lately are bringing CPC against me when they are in mixed comps that don't have enough pressure to get me off the Necros. The only other alternative for not using CPC against a good ranged threat is if you know your team is good enough to utilize their 5 man dynamic in a way to neutralize the ranged threat in other ways. An example of this is when I'm against strong teams and I have a top Power Herald riding my ass all game, which forces me to focus on 1v1s instead of +ing and nuking team fights. But see, to be able to do that they have to have a player that can actually threaten and win against the ranged threat in a 1v1. Sometimes teams don't have that option, so they stack CPC.

Other things about your response here:

1. I see a lot of CPC use against me in ATs but not in ranked. Teams are too unorganized in ranked and can't trust each other to play around a safe utility like that. I've tried on my Necro before, even saying to people in ranked before the match starts "Go to the CPC when they Lich. Stay near me" but then people always run away and don't stand in the 8s anti-projectile field lol. In 2s and 3s though, I do see pretty casual use of CPC, which is pretty much to counter other people's Lich mainly. I dunno if other players are seeing it often though even in ATs. Honestly in NA at least, there aren't many people left who play ranged characters to a threat level that would demand it. Most of the ranged attackers in the game have been nerfed to a point that only the oldest and most stark of veterans can even make the builds work anymore.
2. Barrage with OWP and Sic Em indeed still deals damage through the field, but it's more complex than it sounds.. That will deal a lot of AoE damage but it isn't the umph strike you need vs. single target to be able to actually down good Scourges or Core Necros or w/e else it is you're targeting. The anti projectile field when used by good players does 2x things. The first is it eliminates the LB4 knockback, which is important for ensuring the target takes the first brunt of the Rapid Fire where most of the initial impact is. The second is that you can't hit with Rapid Fire at all. So against higher tiered opponents, if you can't make that burst land, you got nothing to contribute other than 1v1 strength. Outside of the Sic Em bursts, Soulbeast actually has bad damage output and can't stay in team fights for very long. Its sustained damage output is nothing compared to Holo or Herald or say a Reaper. If they can eliminate that bursting, the Soulbeast has little reason to even stay in the team fight and this forces it to have to go side node 1v1s to be contributing at all, which usually right now in this patching doesn't work out well vs. some of the dominant side noders like Weaver.
3. As far as DEs or any other ranged attacker being able to sneak around, yeah they can do that. But it's the good players who already anticipate the types of ways a person would try to play around CPC, and they absolutely wait to use that skill for when its clutch and it just ruins the other team's intentions. When a mix a double Scourge CPC stack + a Guardian with aegis & bubbles in there, if they are on coms and rotating use of anti-projectile, just log off Ranger/DE/PD Thief and play something else. No joke.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

werd thanks for the break down man

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

CPC is strong. Many projectile based classes neglect to bring or do not have a source of unlockable. That said too many necros are too used to having wurm and spectral walk stapled to their bar to bring CPC.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

werd thanks for the break down man

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:snips

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

how often do you see 2 necros cycling CPC? just wondering. soulbeast with sic em can counter it completely, or use one wolf pack + barrage to bypass it. deadeye can easily just kite behind enemy lines and snipe people off point since its pretty rare for people to 100% be on the point where there is no counter pressure (and now not really any supports to help keep them there). anyway again it is a strong utility and i don't wanna sound like i'm minimizing its impact or anything.

I almost never see it, but when I do see it. it works, most people even in p2 just copy build and never change anything

Yeah see, this is what happens and why a lot of them stack CPC against me now. This just happened today after we had this conversation. Convenient.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/985328613

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Yeah see, this is what happens and why a lot of them stack CPC against me now. This just happened today after we had this conversation. Convenient.

forum sniped, they gonna stack dem cpc's now

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@mistsim.2748 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:Just played a little ranked today to see the state of the meta.

It's as i would have expected. Scourges just changed to different amulets and doing the same thing now just with more damage.

When looking at your post history, it's clear that you play with low effort in a low tier. I'm sorry that you're not enjoying the changes, but I'll tell you that Scourges aren't "doing the same thing". Necro stacks are easily dealt with in higher ELO, so this is something that you can strive for.

As discussed, you can split them up as they lack mobility, instead of zerging mid. Pew pew rangers counter them well as they don't have any projectile hate. And Spellbreakers can lock them down to ensure easy kills.

Stop crying, and start trying.

My post history? huh? What are you talking about.

I don't have a problem with scourge actually and I never did. My thing is that the nerfs did not change anything "for the better", and it's obvious why.

[Kuma.1503]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

werd thanks for the break down man

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:snips

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

how often do you see 2 necros cycling CPC? just wondering. soulbeast with sic em can counter it completely, or use one wolf pack + barrage to bypass it. deadeye can easily just kite behind enemy lines and snipe people off point since its pretty rare for people to 100% be on the point where there is no counter pressure (and now not really any supports to help keep them there). anyway again it is a strong utility and i don't wanna sound like i'm minimizing its impact or anything.

I almost never see it, but when I do see it. it works, most people even in p2 just copy build and never change anything

Yeah see, this is what happens and why a lot of them stack CPC against me now. This just happened today after we had this conversation. Convenient.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/985328613

I... almost feel sorry for them. Yeesh

[Albert.3574]

necro war? i only see each game 2 ranger + 1 deadeye always..... anet pvp so balance so ppl more like go play range

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

werd thanks for the break down man

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:snips

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

how often do you see 2 necros cycling CPC? just wondering. soulbeast with sic em can counter it completely, or use one wolf pack + barrage to bypass it. deadeye can easily just kite behind enemy lines and snipe people off point since its pretty rare for people to 100% be on the point where there is no counter pressure (and now not really any supports to help keep them there). anyway again it is a strong utility and i don't wanna sound like i'm minimizing its impact or anything.

I almost never see it, but when I do see it. it works, most people even in p2 just copy build and never change anything

Yeah see, this is what happens and why a lot of them stack CPC against me now. This just happened today after we had this conversation. Convenient.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/985328613

I'm seeing Death Nova there and not CPC.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

werd thanks for the break down man

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:snips

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:snips

how often do you see 2 necros cycling CPC? just wondering. soulbeast with sic em can counter it completely, or use one wolf pack + barrage to bypass it. deadeye can easily just kite behind enemy lines and snipe people off point since its pretty rare for people to 100% be on the point where there is no counter pressure (and now not really any supports to help keep them there). anyway again it is a strong utility and i don't wanna sound like i'm minimizing its impact or anything.

I almost never see it, but when I do see it. it works, most people even in p2 just copy build and never change anything

Yeah see, this is what happens and why a lot of them stack CPC against me now. This just happened today after we had this conversation. Convenient.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/985328613

What else does this prove than that NA is "truly next level" LUL.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 Yeah, that's what I was pointing out. When they don't have CPC.

@NorthernRedStar.3054 Hey, I didn't say those were MAT winners. I said this is what happens when they waddle around with no CPC. Even top players go down like this when you catch them away from support stacks and LOS. That's the ultimate point really.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Lan Deathrider.5910 Yeah, that's what I was pointing out. When they don't have CPC.My bad. I was really tired yesterday and must have misread it your post.

[Exile.8160]

@Albert.3574 said:necro war? i only see each game 2 ranger + 1 deadeye always..... anet pvp so balance so ppl more like go play range

I actually mostly see Necros and rangers in my games. Mostly 2 of 1 and sometimes 2 of each.

[razaelll.8324]

I started seeing pretty often 2 thiefs or 2 rangers in 1 team

[Marxx.5021]

Not allowing class stacking would improve match quality. In ranked there is also no reason to allow switching classes before match starts other than match manipulation.

[razaelll.8324]

@Marxx.5021 said:Not allowing class stacking would improve match quality. In ranked there is also no reason to allow switching classes before match starts other than match manipulation.

i agree with that at 100% changing class before the match start is not good for the game in my opinion. It allows the matchmaking system to get shunted and manipulate the match

[Nilkemia.8507]

I guess people would rather have necromancers be nothing but food. As usual.

[mistsim.2748]

@Marxx.5021 said:Not allowing class stacking would improve match quality. In ranked there is also no reason to allow switching classes before match starts other than match manipulation.

This is what I've been saying. I've also advocated for a brief drafting phase before match start, after which builds get locked in. Class stacking, and being allowed to switch to a third of one spec is absolutely ridiculous.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Nilkemia.8507" said:I guess people would rather have necromancers be nothing but food. As usual.

It's more that Feb 2020 patch reduced a lot outgoing damage, hurting the highly plebicited "burst" gameplay while making the scorned "low skill HP tank" gameplay a lot more resilient. The necromancer having it's whole defence philosophy revolving around tanking with HP ended up being the one that benefit the most out of this change.

ANet tried a lot to balance the necromancer's survivability since then but, in my opinion, the different nerfs they did all targeted the wrong things. Most of the necromancer's balance could have been achieved a year ago by simply reducing the max LF pool by 30% in sPvP/WvW as well as reducing Lich AA damage by 30%. There would have still been issue with barrier but that's a mechanism issue that concern more than just the necromancer and need to be addressed carefully.

[Vancho.8750]

@Nilkemia.8507 said:I guess people would rather have necromancers be nothing but food. As usual.There is that, but also the scourge design with all the constant Area denial kinda slows the game to a crawl, I think it supposed to be a traffic light design, but the green light is too short and most melee classes are generally useless when put in that position . Same issue like Burn DH had allot of area denial with low windows of opportunity.

In PVE there is this traffic light champion mechanic where you can fight it in melee or range and if you are with only melee options, sucks to be you , just afk till the traffic light returns to melee, I don't think Arenanet gets that this is not a fun gameplay design at all.