Holosmith (both grenade and prot) need a look at.

[Leonidrex.5649]

unpopular opinion, the fact that prot holo exists shows how broken holo as a spec is, whats the point of having holo bruiser if scrapper exists? leave scrapper with its bruiser oriented role, and let holo be a dps.
stop the sense-less dps nerfs, if anything we need more damage, if holo needs to lose anything its survivability 
I had fights against holosmiths where we both kite due to being almost dead, and every time they heal to full within a moment, maybe just maybe that is the issue with the " dps " spec?
You cant win on node cuz it just kittening wins, people bring in the " kite " argument, but the moment you kite you kitten yourself over, as holo will almost instantly fully reset itself with the crazy healing it has.
Maybe its time to hit heat therapy again? Dunno.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649

[Bast.7253]

It's pretty obvious at this point that a dev plays holo. The fact that it's gone on in this state for nearly three years now is a joke.

Keep it's sustain and reduce it's damage, or reduce it's sustain. There's really no reason a class should get 20 get out of death free cards on top of pressing any random button and being rewarded with 3k damage.

There are no visuals on half of the damage it puts out. You just see them swinging their sword or spamming grenades, the next thing you know you've lost half your health. It's the most mindless crap I've ever seen in a video game.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Holo is the perfect example of this games power creep. Very good at everything, no real weakness.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

16 hours ago, razaelll.8324 said:

Sic em nerf is only for pve they made it 25%  which is the same in pvp from a while.

 

If you talk about the last patch sic em soulbeast didn't get any nerf in pvp only in pve as far as i know.

 

Sic Em One Wolf Pack can't even pressure Prot Holo at this point.

 

I've consistently been running into Holos that can "Face Tank" not dodge or counter play but "Face Tank" get hit with a full Barrage Rapid Fire Sic Em One Wolf Pack burst and only take about 30% of its life bar in damage. If the full ranged burst only deals that much damage, there is no reason to even attempt to go in melee against it. It will eventually kill you and you won't decap it before that happens.

 

This is because people are stacking the multiple sources of power damage mitigation that is has. You have the shield trait that makes Protection -33% go to -40%, and then now with Resolution they can safely take the "Take less damage while in Forge" over the "Cleanse condi when leaving Forge". Then of course they can further push the limits here by wearing something like Scrapper Rune -5% or Dolyak or Resistance, on top of Demo.

 

Scourge/Prot Holo combo is absolutely breaking the game right now. I don't want to hear anyone complain about Rangers until this ridiculous Goku & Vegeta eating sensu bean garbage is fixed.

[razaelll.8324]

38 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

Sic Em One Wolf Pack can't even pressure Prot Holo at this point.

 

I've consistently been running into Holos that can "Face Tank" not dodge or counter play but "Face Tank" get hit with a full Barrage Rapid Fire Sic Em One Wolf Pack burst and only take about 30% of its life bar in damage. If the full ranged burst only deals that much damage, there is no reason to even attempt to go in melee against it. It will eventually kill you and you won't decap it before that happens.

 

This is because people are stacking the multiple sources of power damage mitigation that is has. You have the shield trait that makes Protection -33% go to -40%, and then now with Resolution they can safely take the "Take less damage while in Forge" over the "Cleanse condi when leaving Forge". Then of course they can further push the limits here by wearing something like Scrapper Rune -5% or Dolyak or Resistance, on top of Demo.

 

Scourge/Prot Holo combo is absolutely breaking the game right now. I don't want to hear anyone complain about Rangers until this ridiculous Goku & Vegeta eating sensu bean garbage is fixed.

Why you quote me, i am not complaining about rangers, neither i claimed that ranger can burstdown prot holo.

No one complained about rangers here, so i dont even know why you bring that up

 

I also think prot holo need to be looked at since its the best duelist atm imo.

Edited May 14, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[bethekey.8314]

I swear to god if core engi gets the nerf bat again due to holo...

 

Nerf holo sustain and/or holo specific damage, not any kits or core engi traits.

[Kuma.1503]

It's almost like engi mains have been saying for YEARS that the problem has always been Holo and all of these core engi nerfs to didn't actually address the root of the problem. 

 

Just a few months ago everyone was certain that if we just hit explosives/nades Holo would be balanced. 

Here we are now. 

 

But no, surely if we nerf Alchemy, Nades, Explosives, ect. more that'll fix the problem. Collateral nerfs to core engi? "It's broken on them too. That's why we've never seen a core engi abusing them in high rated matches."

 

Hopefully this is the last time I'll need to hammer this point home. 

 

Stop nerfing Core engi

 

Actually give a meangful nerf to Holo. Either its traits, it's coefficients, its sustain, or its mobility. This is the problem.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Arken.3725]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I swear to god if core engi gets the nerf bat again due to holo...

 

Nerf holo sustain and/or holo specific damage, not any kits or core engi traits.

Forgive me but a lot of problems aren't JUST Holosmith.  I'm a huge advocate of self-nerfing for the betterment of this game as anyone here who knows my post history could tell you IF the nerfs make sense.  Really looking at the whole picture, you can't think of a SINGLE issue that elevates Holosmith(or Scrapper) to incredible levels?  Honest question.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

22 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

unpopular opinion, the fact that prot holo exists shows how broken holo as a spec is, whats the point of having holo bruiser if scrapper exists? leave scrapper with its bruiser oriented role, and let holo be a dps.
stop the sense-less dps nerfs, if anything we need more damage, if holo needs to lose anything its survivability 
I had fights against holosmiths where we both kite due to being almost dead, and every time they heal to full within a moment, maybe just maybe that is the issue with the " dps " spec?
You cant win on node cuz it just kittening wins, people bring in the " kite " argument, but the moment you kite you kitten yourself over, as holo will almost instantly fully reset itself with the crazy healing it has.
Maybe its time to hit heat therapy again? Dunno.

This, to an extent.

The issue isn't "there's too much damage" - there isn't. When some builds (and some classes) have access to absurd combinations of survivability and dps, it emphasizes the issue we're currently having: misplays aren't [= can't be] punished enough and are too easy to recover from. 

However, what also poses an issue is when a spec is too strong both at range and in melee. Because of its resets, holosmith does not have a proper moment of weakness.

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

Forgive me but a lot of problems aren't JUST Holosmith.  I'm a huge advocate of self-nerfing for the betterment of this game as anyone here who knows my post history could tell you IF the nerfs make sense.  Really looking at the whole picture, you can't think of a SINGLE issue that elevates Holosmith(or Scrapper) to incredible levels?  Honest question.

 

If someone believes that the problem isn't just holosmith, that's fine, but instead of making vague statements, perhaps we should put the burden of proof where it really belongs? If the claim is that Core is broken as well, not just holo (justifying the need to nerf core instead of targeting holo specifically), then the burden of proof is on the person claiming it's OP to.... perhapss name a single core engi player who has managed to abuse whatever they think is broken with any noteworthy level of success?

 

If not then the claim should be discounted due to a lack of evidence. 

 

Unfortunately, thats not how things seem to work on the forums. Instead we opperate on wibbly wobbly claims such as "it feels broken or cheesy" and take that as all the evidence necessary to witch hunt a build until it gets nerfed. 

 

The real kicker is that these people very often miss the mark on what is actually broken because there was never any real data behind their claims in the first place. And that is why, despite countless nerfs to core engi, Holo still continues to overperform. 

 

 

[Arken.3725]

@Kuma.1503

 

Oh this is going to be easy.  Outside of you ignoring my OP, I'll give you prime examples.

 

Alchemy:  Elixir S Is the best utility in the game, prove me wrong.  There's no other utility that gives the best get-out-of-jail card than this one, not a single utility comes close.  Passive boon access greater than any class in this game, JUST from Alchemy alone.  

 

Explosions:  Explosive Entrance is also the hardest-hitting on-dodge mechanic in this game with incredible utility.  No other on-dodge trait comes close to the effectiveness that this trait offers.  In combination with Grenadier,  which offers you the STRONGEST melee/ranged AoE spam in the game for damage.

 

Grenades:  Like I mentioned earlier, with comparable power, the auto-attack on grenades exceeds MANY melee third-hit chain auto-attacks.  How insane is it to have a skill that's spammable at both ranged and melee do MORE damage than most melee attacks that require the third-hit on the chain?  This is factual proof my friend.  As an example:  I compared Guardian Sword third-chain hit to be at 843 while grenades of the SAME power do 834.  Simple math my friend.  

[Kuma.1503]

1 minute ago, Arken.3725 said:

@Kuma.1503

 

Oh this is going to be easy.  Outside of you ignoring my OP, I'll give you prime examples.

 

Alchemy:  Elixir S Is the best utility in the game, prove me wrong.  There's no other utility that gives the best get-out-of-jail card than this one, not a single utility comes close.  Passive boon access greater than any class in this game, JUST from Alchemy alone.  

 

Explosions:  Explosive Entrance is also the hardest-hitting on-dodge mechanic in this game with incredible utility.  No other on-dodge trait comes close to the effectiveness that this trait offers.  In combination with Grenadier,  which offers you the STRONGEST melee/ranged AoE spam in the game for damage.

 

Grenades:  Like I mentioned earlier, with comparable power, the auto-attack on grenades exceeds MANY melee third-hit chain auto-attacks.  How insane is it to have a skill that's spammable at both ranged and melee do MORE damage than most melee attacks that require the third-hit on the chain?  This is factual proof my friend.  As an example:  I compared Guardian Sword third-chain hit to be at 843 while grenades of the SAME power do 834.  Simple math my friend.  

 

Oookay, that all sounds good on paper, but how often have you actually seen Core Engineers abusing these supposedly best in the game skills/traits and competing with the likes of Scourge, Renegade, Daredevil, Herald, ect. 

 

Could it possibly be that the core class has weaknesses that counterbalance these strengths resulting in a class that is balanced overall?

 

what we've ben doing is nerfing core engi's stregnths, leaving the cons, and continuing to allow Holo to do everything it already does with no reprocussions. The problem is that whenever core Engi has anything that is strong, Holo breaks it because Holo does not have the weaknesses that core has that counterbalance these strengths. 

 

Holo is the issue, and until Holo is addressed directly  it will continue to find something else to abuse after it has been nerfed. This has happened every single time we've nerfed core engi instead of Holo. And people continue to scratch their heads wondering why Holo remains dominant. 

 

It's the definition of insanity. 

 

I'll repeat what I said before. List me one Core Grenadier engi abusing nades, Elixir S, and/or Explosive entrance and managing to succeed in either high ranking solo queue, or ATs. 

 

If you can then that might start the discussion of what should be done to tone it down, if necessary. 

 

 

[Arken.3725]

It's a combination, friend.  Having all of these variables contributes to the strength THAT is Holosmith.  Looking at the whole picture, you'd have pre-nerfed Healing Signet levels of sustain on Heat-therapy that compound with compounding chemicals. 

 

You have incredible mobility that rids yourself of all movement impairing conditions.

 

Insane sustain from shields ridiculous power-creep.  Oh I forgot to mention, Engineer shield is also the best off-hand utility in the game.  Can't think of a better one for pure sustain/utility.  Constant shocking on a 2.5 sec durational block?  Balanced.

 

All of these compound to make Holosmith as strong as it is.  Let's not forget the above-average condition sustain from Prismatic converter.  3 conditions converted at 100 heat?  No problem.

[Kuma.1503]

55 minutes ago, Arken.3725 said:

It's a combination, friend.  Having all of these variables contributes to the strength THAT is Holosmith.  Looking at the whole picture, you'd have pre-nerfed Healing Signet levels of sustain on Heat-therapy that compound with compounding chemicals. 

 

You have incredible mobility that rids yourself of all movement impairing conditions.

 

Insane sustain from shields ridiculous power-creep.  Oh I forgot to mention, Engineer shield is also the best off-hand utility in the game.  Can't think of a better one for pure sustain/utility.  Constant shocking on a 2.5 sec durational block?  Balanced.

 

All of these compound to make Holosmith as strong as it is.  Let's not forget the above-average condition sustain from Prismatic converter.  3 conditions converted at 100 heat?  No problem.

 

We're essentially arguing the same point. Holo simultaneously covers up for core engi's weaknesses while also adding onto their strengths. Compounding chemicals is perfectly fine on core engi.

 

It doesn't spam boons on itself often enough to capitalize. Holo on the other hand gets might on Corona burst which is 10 easy procs on top of heat therapy. Holo sustain hasn't been addressed enough since damage went down in the Februrary patch. Hitting core engi sustain won't fix this issue because Holo will still have heat threapy, regen, big boomer (if slotted) and if runnign inventions they will heal upon entering and exiting forge. 

 

If nerfs are to be dished out, the correct culprit is to hit Holo. 

 

Edit: Here's what I'd do personally to deal with Holo's sustain. 

 

• Reduce Heat Therapy healing in PvP only
• Entering and exiting Photon Forge no longer procs Soothing Detonation
• Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit. Increased might pulse interval to 2 seconds in PvP only

 

That would hit 3 different sources of Holo's passive healing. Reducing passive might gen will simultaneously weaken the synergy with compounding chemicals and reduce the pressure that prot holo is able to pump out while building defensively. 

 

None of this would hit core engi or Scrapper. 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Arken.3725]

None of what you suggested touches Grenades which again, as I've provided, does more damage in an AoE at both ranged/melee than most auto-attacks.  This is base-damage my friend.  You could nerf every suggestion and it would still be broken.  I think you and me are somewhat on the same page but we're not looking at the whole picture.  I'd be willing to wager that if Holosmith was weak, you'd still find engineer's with the tools necessary to function incredibly well.

 

Here's my simple break down:

 

Incredible dps(Nades, Corona burst, Auto, Sword 2/3)  

 

Incredible sustain(above-average heal skill, heat-therapy and compounding chemicals, stealth and superspeed  access, solid condi-conversion, only block skill that STUNS in addition to its sustain with a reflect bubble)

 

Also, I'm a Guardian main and I ADVOCATED for symbol-nerfs and an overhaul for retaliation because free-damage is terrible by design.  The changes from retal to resolution are an indirect-buff to holo smith too. 

[Kuma.1503]

58 minutes ago, Arken.3725 said:

None of what you suggested touches Grenades which again, as I've provided, does more damage in an AoE at both ranged/melee than most auto-attacks.  This is base-damage my friend.  You could nerf every suggestion and it would still be broken.  I think you and me are somewhat on the same page but we're not looking at the whole picture.  I'd be willing to wager that if Holosmith was weak, you'd still find engineer's with the tools necessary to function incredibly well.

 

Here's my simple break down:

 

Incredible dps(Nades, Corona burst, Auto, Sword 2/3)  

 

Incredible sustain(above-average heal skill, heat-therapy and compounding chemicals, stealth and superspeed  access, solid condi-conversion, only block skill that STUNS in addition to its sustain with a reflect bubble)

 

Also, I'm a Guardian main and I ADVOCATED for symbol-nerfs and an overhaul for retaliation because free-damage is terrible by design.  The changes from retal to resolution are an indirect-buff to holo smith too. 

 

We are mostly on the same page here. I am an engi main and I've essentially spent the last 3 posts saying "Nerfing core would not nerf Holo hard enough. Here's how to nerf it harder". 

 

The changes I suggested would most definately hit nade holo, which for the record is mostly fine at the moment. The last few nerfs put it in a good spot, strong, but managable.  Nades are currently udnerperforming  on core right now which suggests that the problems lie elsewhere. The changes I suggested would cut holo's passive might generation from sitting above 100 heat by half. 

 

How would this play out when fighting a nade holo?

 

When Holo reaches high heat and drops out of forge, they go into nade kit to fill in space while waiting for forge to cool down. During this time, they naturally have high might stacks thanks to Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit and Corona Burst (if they used it). A shrapnel Grenade with intel proc during this time is going to chunk hard due to naturally high might stacks + vuln from corona burst. 

 

Cutting the might generation in half means that this burst will burst for less on top of them dealing less overall damage in forge. 

 

Meanwhile the sustain cut will increase the risk involved in playing the build. A nerf to heat therapy affects all Holo builds. This is a signifiant source of their resustain, and with it reduced there's a greater chance that the damage you deal to them will stick. This pushes nade Holo closer towards the glass dps role (which is appropriate) and further away from the "I am a glass dps with bruiser level sustain so I'm also good at side noding for... reasons... ... role"

 

Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue but you get the point. 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Math.5123]

The biggest thing that needs to go is the superspeed trait and its cleansing capabilities. The power level of this one trait is beyond absurd. 

[Twigifire.8379]

Holosmith offers everything core engi could want and more.

 

Heat therapy heals more than any of engi's actual healing skills as a passive.

Photon forge is the most reliable damage kit with the biggest impact skills of any other weapons/kits engi can use.

The condi cleanse trait is the best single trait for condition cleansing which engi has, even being able to use it while CC'd.

All other engi traits normally specialise in one particular thing and you take them to offset the gaps in the others. With holosmith, there's no gaps, and has skills which synergise better with core traits than any actual core skills i.e. hard light arena

 

[felix.2386]

Problem with holo is that it's OP mechanically just like scourge/FB, and by nerfing number you will only eventually pass a point where OP mechanic doesnt matter because the numbers are too weak like FB is now.

yet they refuse to remove mechanics from these classes. so either it's OP or it's overnerfed and unwanted.

 

they need to start nerfing mechanics now just like how they should've buffed warrior mechanics since 2012, but they won't bother, so the problem will never be fixed, holo will be forever OP unless it's nerfed to unplayable, just like FB just like scourge.

[Arken.3725]

12 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

Problem with holo is that it's OP mechanically just like scourge/FB, and by nerfing number you will only eventually pass a point where OP mechanic doesnt matter because the numbers are too weak like FB is now.

yet they refuse to remove mechanics from these classes. so either it's OP or it's overnerfed and unwanted.

 

they need to start nerfing mechanics now just like how they should've buffed warrior mechanics since 2012, but they won't bother, so the problem will never be fixed, holo will be forever OP unless it's nerfed to unplayable, just like FB just like scourge.

Except Scourge is very playable but I get your point.

 

Everything is a numbers game, this is why FB got destroyed.  The numbers got toned down SO much that even if you had 100% extra boon duration, it wouldn't make a difference.  You could easily make similar changes to holo but not so severe that it's never played again.

[Ragnar.4257]

45 minutes ago, Arken.3725 said:

Except Scourge is very playable but I get your point.

 

Everything is a numbers game, this is why FB got destroyed.  The numbers got toned down SO much that even if you had 100% extra boon duration, it wouldn't make a difference.  You could easily make similar changes to holo but not so severe that it's never played again.

What's interesting about the nuking of FB, is that ANet kinda HAD to do it to get the community to stop circle-jerking it.

 

FB numbers have basically been untouched since beginning of March 2020, and yet even through March/April/May/June the majority of players were still insisting that FB was the most overpowered busted spec in the game, because they had been conditioned to think that way through 2018/2019. It wasn't until USA got trashed in MOTA by a team playing Tempest that people finally woke up.

 

Since then, no numbers have changed, but people have gone from thinking FB = OP, to thinking FB = trash. Even though the spec had already been thoroughly annihilated, it took people 6 months to actually realise it.

 

It is not sufficient to bring a spec "into line" because monkeys can't assess things clearly. You have to nuke a spec from orbit, salt its fields and sterilise its children in order to shift players' mindsets. See also: Mirage.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Megametzler.5729]

On 5/13/2021 at 5:06 PM, felix.2386 said:

bro i can take away 50% of enemy hp by having tier 3 heat on sword 2 on prot. definitely laughable damage. very funny

if you dont know how to holo properly it's fine, just say it.

I absolutely disagree with you snipping the sentence you quote. That is extremely bad culture of discussion and should never be done without at least marking the cut. He did not state what you suggest here.

 

The damage of prot holo is definitely lower than for other holo builds. Of course, due to the in-built damage modifiers, it is still absurdly high for the sustain.

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 minutes ago, Megametzler.5729 said:

I absolutely disagree with you snipping the sentence you quote. That is extremely bad culture of discussion and should never be done without at least marking the cut. He did not state what you suggest here.

 

The damage of prot holo is definitely lower than for other holo builds. Of course, due to the in-built damage modifiers, it is still absurdly high for the sustain.

yes, taking defensive traits instead off offensive ones makes you deal less damage. THank you for clearing that up for us.
well, exept when you are tanky as kitten and take no damage you can afford to run into people and lose less time dodging/kiting and can spend that time attacking. Party of why prot holo when viable becomes a stat-check build.
When its good it out-everythings you and you kinda just lose.

[Arken.3725]

2 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

What's interesting about the nuking of FB, is that ANet kinda HAD to do it to get the community to stop circle-jerking it.

 

FB numbers have basically been untouched since beginning of March 2020, and yet even through March/April/May/June the majority of players were still insisting that FB was the most overpowered busted spec in the game, because they had been conditioned to think that way through 2018/2019. It wasn't until USA got trashed in MOTA by a team playing Tempest that people finally woke up.

 

Since then, no numbers have changed, but people have gone from thinking FB = OP, to thinking FB = trash. Even though the spec had already been thoroughly annihilated, it took people 6 months to actually realise it.

 

It is not sufficient to bring a spec "into line" because monkeys can't assess things clearly. You have to nuke a spec from orbit, salt its fields and sterilise its children in order to shift players' mindsets. See also: Mirage.

This man speaks the truth.  Sometimes we've become so set in our ways that even after significant changes we assume things are still status-quo when in fact, they're far from it.  It's unfortunate but if Anet continues down this path of balance destruction then maybe it is for the best that Holo get the same treatment.  I do wonder though, what would rise from the ashes as the next meta spec?

 

Renegade seems to still be performing exceptionally along with Scourge but what else would there be?

[Bast.7253]

On 5/14/2021 at 6:33 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

 

We're essentially arguing the same point. Holo simultaneously covers up for core engi's weaknesses while also adding onto their strengths. Compounding chemicals is perfectly fine on core engi.

 

It doesn't spam boons on itself often enough to capitalize. Holo on the other hand gets might on Corona burst which is 10 easy procs on top of heat therapy. Holo sustain hasn't been addressed enough since damage went down in the Februrary patch. Hitting core engi sustain won't fix this issue because Holo will still have heat threapy, regen, big boomer (if slotted) and if runnign inventions they will heal upon entering and exiting forge. 

 

If nerfs are to be dished out, the correct culprit is to hit Holo. 

Honestly, I wouldn't even say it's just Holo. I was in WvW last night and some scrapper came out of stealth and one shot me with one grenade barrage. 4.5k damage each grenade. I mean, that's cool and all.. but why are people complaining about shatter mes exactly? 

But I'd say one issue here is just how rampant boons are in this game. It's like some classes have such easy access to them they might as well just bake in the damage to the class. I feel like they should be something you have to work towards that make a significant impact, not just something that pops up for using any random ability. Stab seems to be the only thing that you really have to actually work at to get anymore, outside of maybe alacrity unless you're rolling mirage.