Remove immobilize and/or burning from pvp

[Widmo.3186]

Calling others that theyre speaking through they emotions and personal experiences, meanwhile being the most biased person in this thread (maybe except OP that wants both burning and immob deleted, thats actually one level above). Noice.
I mean, yeah, sure you can listen to him and agree, theres nothing wrong with that. Then you can start wondering, why ANet disabled (300s cd) most passive effect traits in this game (eg. Instant Reflexes, Last Stand) in PvP modes, and why theyre still not fixed/changed. Ranger spec example - Eternal Bond. Then you can start wondering, whether Ancient Seeds is an active or actually passive trait and what kind of gameplay it produces (dont get me wrong, its not straight up safe passive button like previous examples, but is just as obnoxious as they are).
You know, I dont really get it why ppl want SA traitline nerf so hard, and also why they cry about stealth in general. I mean, its pretty simple, you have multiple counters. Like reveal, straight up counter, quite easy to use. You cant target it, but boii, you have AoEs, just spam them so teef suffers. And ofc dodge, you wont get hit with backstab if you properly evade. Just l2p and utilise, cant see how people above Gold II can have any problems with such easy and punishable mechanic.
You guys are clearly just not willing to improve and understand how other classes work. Jesus, how awful are ppl in this forum...
PS: You see, this is a person thats not willing to agree whether something deserves a change just because its not top meta build, also only his opinion is constructive, meanwhile ours is a misinformation and personal opinion. I agree, pretty entertaining thread, thank you.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[Shaogin.2679]

3 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Calling others that theyre speaking through they emotions and personal experiences, meanwhile being the most biased person in this thread (maybe except OP that wants both burning and immob deleted, thats actually one level above). Noice.
I mean, yeah, sure you can listen to him and agree, theres nothing wrong with that. Then you can start wondering, why ANet disabled (300s cd) most passive effect traits in this game (eg. Instant Reflexes, Last Stand) in PvP modes, and why theyre still not fixed/changed. Ranger spec example - Eternal Bond. Then you can start wondering, whether Ancient Seeds is an active or actually passive trait and what kind of gameplay it produces (dont get me wrong, its not straight up safe passive button like previous examples, but is just as obnoxious as they are).
You know, I dont really get it why ppl want SA traitline nerf so hard, and also why they cry about stealth in general. I mean, its pretty simple, you have multiple counters. Like reveal, straight up counter, quite easy to use. You cant target it, but boii, you have AoEs, just spam them so teef suffers. And ofc dodge, you wont get hit with backstab if you properly evade. Just l2p and utilise, cant see how people above Gold II can have any problems with such easy and punishable mechanic.

Being knowledgeable on a subject doesn't make me biased, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that of course. Also, you seem to be unable to argue the actual point about what exactly makes a Druid's immobs so strong that it requires a nerf or removal. You just throw out random statements that have nothing to do with the topic and most based around pure speculation or personal opinion. And bravo on comparing the mechanics of a meta level PvP class to those of a meme build. That was pretty entertaining.

[Shaogin.2679]

59 minutes ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Immob or burning should not be removed. Immob uptimes need to be brought down, and burn/poison needs to go back to what it was in the past: conditions that don't stack, only stacks duration. Burning is already the most powerful condition you can put on a player, and before they reworked it to stack, it was doing around 600 hp per second for that single stack (which is fine). With poison, the reason why it should not stack as well like before, is that it also has the added benefit of its utility, being able to reduce healing by 33%. it should go back to that, having only 1 stack but stacking duration.

Why does immob up time need to be brought down? Can you list specific cases where it is over performing and what is causing it? Also, before the changes to conditions stacking, condition builds were utter garbage in most situations. More specifically, they were garbage in PvE. Without the ability to stack conditions, only one instance of burning or poison could be on the enemy at a time, which was a huge problem when bringing multiple condition builds to the fight. We have also reached a point where entire specs and boss fights and what not are balanced and designed around they way conditions work now. I can only presume that changing that would be a massive undertaking and would ultimately make the game worse.

[Ghos.1326]

21 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Why does immob up time need to be brought down? Can you list specific cases where it is over performing and what is causing it? Also, before the changes to conditions stacking, condition builds were utter garbage in most situations. More specifically, they were garbage in PvE. Without the ability to stack conditions, only one instance of burning or poison could be on the enemy at a time, which was a huge problem when bringing multiple condition builds to the fight. We have also reached a point where entire specs and boss fights and what not are balanced and designed around they way conditions work now. I can only presume that changing that would be a massive undertaking and would ultimately make the game worse.

Conditions weren't utter garbage at all, conditions were not bad. People wanted them to do more damage, bursty damage. And anet caved and gave it to them.

PvE can have burn and poison stack, that's completely fine with me. But in a PvP setting, no.

Specific cases in PvP where it's overperforming, yes. Ranger's immob, both from their elite and the jacaranda, as well as other sources like utilities and pet skills, is overtuned. I can, if you wish, create a list of all of the skills/utils that immob, but one of THE biggest offenders is the ranger's elite.

Lets keep in mind what conditions are supposed to be: damage over time. Bleeds, torment, confusion, those still were stackable. Not every condition was capped at one stack, only burn (because of its raw power per tick) and poison (added utility of reducing healing received by 33%). As well, though smaller in number, there were still the direct damage elements of your skills, which added to the overall dps over time. Regardless, conditions can stay how they are for PvE, a PvP/WvW split would be a good route to take to balance out the conditions problem.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Ghos.1326

[crewthief.8649]

4 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

And yet, no one with a shred of credibility is here complaining about it. You all argue with emotions and personal experiences, I refute with facts. To continue this would be the equivalent of arguing with a brick wall. No one here that hates any sort of mechanic is willing to improve or better understand anything, they just want to complain and have Anet bend to their will.

Very true, but honestly wasting your effort with this angry mob. Also, the dude has "Troll" right in the name so, yeah.

It is objectively busted. I mean, come on guy, seriously? You’re a Ranger main in here arguing against several people and somehow we’re all wrong and you’re right? Put your thinking cap on, does that pass the sniff test to you? I mean, I get bias, but seriously... It is broken. There should be nothing like that in a competitive mode. Period. The people you’re arguing with have been PvPing in various forms in this game for years. But we’re all just being emotional, right? 
 

- “Oh, it’s a meme build”

- “You all are just being emotional”

- “I’m clearly a very knowledgeable player arguing with facts while you all are just angry because you don’t understand the deep and complex gameplay presented by a passive, seconds long, pulsing immob”

- “But Druid does hardly any damage (bear in mind, this statement completely disregards the fact that you have teammates)”
 

Get over yourself. How narcissistic can you be?

Edited May 17, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[TheQuickFox.3826]

*Overloads fire and burns everything nearby*

*Breaks stun*

*Casts "Eye of the Storm" to break stun again and move with superspeed and quickness*

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

L2P.

Seriously. Like these people getting destroyed by ranger's tangling roots or same thing just one man version from druid's grandmaster trait.

The ways to deal with these things are already in there, just learn what they are, how to use them and apply to your build.
You're supposed to get better and smarter, not game easier and dumber..

 

[Ghos.1326]

2 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

L2P.

Seriously. Like these people getting destroyed by ranger's tangling roots or same thing just one man version from druid's grandmaster trait.

The ways to deal with these things are already in there, just learn what they are, how to use them and apply to your build.
You're supposed to get better and smarter, not game easier and dumber..

 

pulsing immob shouldn't last more than 1 second, and other sources of immob shouldn't last more than 2. It's not a learn to play issue.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Just now, Ghos.1326 said:

pulsing immob shouldn't last more than 1 second, and other sources of immob shouldn't last more than 2. It's not a learn to play issue.

There are traits that reduce duration of chill, cripple and immob all in one go. And incoming condi duration reducing runes and foods, all stacking with eachother. Skills that insta break'em while moving you out of them. Or just plain blinks/teleports, that while not cleansing any condi will move you outta ranger roots grasp. Resistance. Just plain destroying the vines. Heck warr can free himself by simply using a mobility skill of any kind and a trait that breaks immob when you do so.

There is an ample amount of tools to counter such play, provided you make the effort to identify them and include them in your build when you see a ranger in enemy team in pvp...

[Ghos.1326]

48 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

There are traits that reduce duration of chill, cripple and immob all in one go. And incoming condi duration reducing runes and foods, all stacking with eachother. Skills that insta break'em while moving you out of them. Or just plain blinks/teleports, that while not cleansing any condi will move you outta ranger roots grasp. Resistance. Just plain destroying the vines. Heck warr can free himself by simply using a mobility skill of any kind and a trait that breaks immob when you do so.

There is an ample amount of tools to counter such play, provided you make the effort to identify them and include them in your build when you see a ranger in enemy team in pvp...

But the fact that I would NEED to change my entire toolkit for the Ranger alone would suggest what I'm saying: the immob on some of the Ranger's skills is overtuned. As well, Ranger does not only have one source, so if you expend YOUR resource to counter theirs, they have plenty more where that came from, nullifying your attempt to counter their resource. So while there is ample amount of tools, there are more of that ample amount of immob to simply overtake the ample amount of counter tools.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Just now, Ghos.1326 said:

But the fact that I would NEED to change my entire toolkit for the Ranger alone would suggest what I'm saying: the immob on some of the Ranger's skills is overtuned. As well, Ranger does not only have one source, so if you expend YOUR resource to counter theirs, they have plenty more where that came from, nullifying your attempt to counter their resource. So while there is ample amount of tools, there are more of that ample amount of immob to simply overtake the ample amount of counter tools.

 

I mean damage was the counter tool to druid's specific immobilization...damage from the game is essentially gone, and only a small few of them can actually do enough damage to release them of the vines in a practical time frame.

 

the issue with immobilization is just a side-effect of a much much deeper issue... that as you remove things from the game, those things were counters to other things...and those things become meta as a consequence of their counters removal. That thing that is now meta, is a counter to something ELSE somewhere's, and if you remove that, then that something else will have less counters...

 

It's a never ending cycle...removing one element in the rock paper scissors game causes a constant imbalance...and if you remove things you just make that imbalance worse and worse until you're left with nothing. It's not that rock paper scissors is flawed, it's the aspect of removing elements from it which is flawed. 

[Ghos.1326]

4 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

I mean damage was the counter tool to druid's specific immobilization...damage from the game is essentially gone, and only a small few of them can actually do enough damage to release them of the vines in a practical time frame.

 

the issue with immobilization is just a side-effect of a much much deeper issue... that as you remove things from the game, those things were counters to other things...and those things become meta as a consequence of their counters removal. That thing that is now meta, is a counter to something ELSE somewhere's, and if you remove that, then that something else will have less counters...

 

It's a never ending cycle...removing one element in the rock paper scissors game causes a constant imbalance...and if you remove things you just make that imbalance worse and worse until you're left with nothing. It's not that rock paper scissors is flawed, it's the aspect of removing elements from it which is flawed. 

I don't want to remove anything. Only tone down.

Example using Ranger's elite skill that pulses immobilize. I think that's a pretty cool and unique feature of the Ranger's toolkit. but the immob, if it's going to pulse, shouldn't last 2s per pulse. That 2s might not seem like much, but in a really tight situation, that could spell doom for the player. And really, unless you have several clears available (one conversion if you have such a skill available at all), all it takes is to be struck once by one of the pulses and you're as good as a sitting duck for the Ranger to pick you off.

Again, I don't want the skills removed. I want them toned down. To use another example, the utility skill muddy terrain should not be a 3s immob. 2s would be ok, but 3s is a bit too long. Being trapped in an immobilize for 3s is not enough time to provide you with the ability to counteract properly. At the same time, we don't want to reduce this uptime to 1s, because the Ranger WOULD like to follow up with something that can cause significant damage to their enemy (you) as well (unless the skill is a lesser version procced by a trait, as is evident with child of earth). So I think 2s is the good middle ground.

In terms of skills on lower cooldowns that also procc immob, the immob should be less uptime, as the skill causing the immob is more readily available. Example is Engineer's net shot on rifle. That should be a 1s immob. Currently in both PvE and WvW/PvP it's 2s. In PvE, it can stay on a 2s uptime, but for PvP, it should get reduced to 1s.

[Downstate.4697]

Immob is only an issue if it roots you. Burn is fine the way it is now.

[crewthief.8649]

1 hour ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

L2P.

Seriously. Like these people getting destroyed by ranger's tangling roots or same thing just one man version from druid's grandmaster trait.

The ways to deal with these things are already in there, just learn what they are, how to use them and apply to your build.
You're supposed to get better and smarter, not game easier and dumber..

 

Yeah, because clearly if you think that a passive, seconds-long, pulsing immob is stupid and should be adjusted, it’s just because you don’t understand that cleanse clears immob and you need to just “git gud.” 

What a disingenuous and intellectually lazy position. I’m not going to bother with anything further, as I don’t feel you’d be capable of keeping up with a rational discussion.

 

[Shaogin.2679]

On 5/17/2021 at 9:37 AM, Ghos.1326 said:

Conditions weren't utter garbage at all, conditions were not bad. People wanted them to do more damage, bursty damage. And anet caved and gave it to them.

PvE can have burn and poison stack, that's completely fine with me. But in a PvP setting, no.

Specific cases in PvP where it's overperforming, yes. Ranger's immob, both from their elite and the jacaranda, as well as other sources like utilities and pet skills, is overtuned. I can, if you wish, create a list of all of the skills/utils that immob, but one of THE biggest offenders is the ranger's elite.

Lets keep in mind what conditions are supposed to be: damage over time. Bleeds, torment, confusion, those still were stackable. Not every condition was capped at one stack, only burn (because of its raw power per tick) and poison (added utility of reducing healing received by 33%). As well, though smaller in number, there were still the direct damage elements of your skills, which added to the overall dps over time. Regardless, conditions can stay how they are for PvE, a PvP/WvW split would be a good route to take to balance out the conditions problem.

In content where power damage dominated due to how quick it could deal damage and where only one player could apply things like burning and poison, yes, condi damage was bad and was not accepted in serious groups. Despite how you feel about the issue, those are just facts. Your examples of immobilize over-performing has already been addressed to death, and it is very clear that sufficient and available counters already exist to keep those skills in check. Also, we don't have a conditions problem in PvP/WvW. The majority of meta builds in those modes are still power builds. Furthermore, a broken build doesn't mean that all of condition damage or all of power damage across the board is broken. It is a broken build, nothing more.

10 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

pulsing immob shouldn't last more than 1 second, and other sources of immob shouldn't last more than 2. It's not a learn to play issue.

The Druid's pulsing immob in PvP does last one second, with exception of the Elite skill, which is 2. Also, pulsing conditions are newly applied conditions, which means they are the first ones cleansed.

On 5/17/2021 at 12:01 PM, crewthief.8649 said:

It is objectively busted. I mean, come on guy, seriously? You’re a Ranger main in here arguing against several people and somehow we’re all wrong and you’re right? Put your thinking cap on, does that pass the sniff test to you? I mean, I get bias, but seriously... It is broken. There should be nothing like that in a competitive mode. Period. The people you’re arguing with have been PvPing in various forms in this game for years. But we’re all just being emotional, right? 
 

- “Oh, it’s a meme build”

- “You all are just being emotional”

- “I’m clearly a very knowledgeable player arguing with facts while you all are just angry because you don’t understand the deep and complex gameplay presented by a passive, seconds long, pulsing immob”

- “But Druid does hardly any damage (bear in mind, this statement completely disregards the fact that you have teammates)”
 

Get over yourself. How narcissistic can you be?

I'm actually not a Ranger main. According to GW2, my main would be my Engineer, followed by Necromancer, Ranger, then Guardian, with an honorable mention to the rest. You also act like I'm the only one here stating the obvious, kinda weird argument to use there considering anyone that has taken the time to read will quickly realize you're wrong there. Also, I've been here since launch so.....weird to bring that up. And yes, just look at your post. You haven't used a single fact, and instead you have decided to personally attack my character (someone you don't even know, which is also a reportable offense here), all because you're so worked up over this. Like wow, I am so sorry that basic facts disturb you this much, but you are more than welcome to dispute them with factual information of your own, like, any day now.

9 hours ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Yeah, because clearly if you think that a passive, seconds-long, pulsing immob is stupid and should be adjusted, it’s just because you don’t understand that cleanse clears immob and you need to just “git gud.” 

What a disingenuous and intellectually lazy position. I’m not going to bother with anything further, as I don’t feel you’d be capable of keeping up with a rational discussion.

 

And again here, go back and read your posts with a calm head and tell me what part of your responses has been a "rational discussion". 

[crewthief.8649]

12 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

In content where power damage dominated due to how quick it could deal damage and where only one player could apply things like burning and poison, yes, condi damage was bad and was not accepted in serious groups. Despite how you feel about the issue, those are just facts. Your examples of immobilize over-performing has already been addressed to death, and it is very clear that sufficient and available counters already exist to keep those skills in check. Also, we don't have a conditions problem in PvP/WvW. The majority of meta builds in those modes are still power builds. Furthermore, a broken build doesn't mean that all of condition damage or all of power damage across the board is broken. It is a broken build, nothing more.

The Druid's pulsing immob in PvP does last one second, with exception of the Elite skill, which is 2. Also, pulsing conditions are newly applied conditions, which means they are the first ones cleansed.

I'm actually not a Ranger main. According to GW2, my main would be my Engineer, followed by Necromancer, Ranger, then Guardian, with an honorable mention to the rest. You also act like I'm the only one here stating the obvious, kinda weird argument to use there considering anyone that has taken the time to read will quickly realize you're wrong there. Also, I've been here since launch so.....weird to bring that up. And yes, just look at your post. You haven't used a single fact, and instead you have decided to personally attack my character (someone you don't even know, which is also a reportable offense here), all because you're so worked up over this. Like wow, I am so sorry that basic facts disturb you this much, but you are more than welcome to dispute them with factual information of your own, like, any day now.

And again here, go back and read your posts with a calm head and tell me what part of your responses has been a "rational discussion". 

I’m not actually reading your posts at this point. Save yourself the trouble of typing out a wall of text. You aren’t worth the time it takes to read this, TBH.

[Shaogin.2679]

51 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

I’m not actually reading your posts at this point. Save yourself the trouble of typing out a wall of text. You aren’t worth the time it takes to read this, TBH.

More personal attacks? Pretty rude coming from someone claiming to want a rational discussion. It's a shame, you might learn something new if you took the time to read instead of always being ready to attack someone simply for disagreeing. 

[crewthief.8649]

9 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

More personal attacks? Pretty rude coming from someone claiming to want a rational discussion. It's a shame, you might learn something new if you took the time to read instead of always being ready to attack someone simply for disagreeing. 

There is no such thing as a rational discussion with a person who thinks a room full of people are all wrong, while they’re right. That is arrogance and narcissism. Now, you may not behave that way IRL, but that is irrelevant, tbh. You’re telling all of us that disagree with you that we are being emotional, and yet you cling to victimhood the first opportunity to get? 

[- “Being knowledgeable on a subject doesn't make me biased, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that of course.” -]
^That^ was a response of yours to someone disagreeing with you, earlier in the thread. It is the very definition of arrogant. That, along with claiming that “we” are acting out of emotion rather than facts, prompted my reply to you. 
 

Again, get over yourself. You don’t want to be a target? Don’t dismiss people as “emotional” just because they disagree with you. It’s okay, I’ve had to teach my kids the idea of consequences as well.

Edited May 19, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[Ghos.1326]

10 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

In content where power damage dominated due to how quick it could deal damage and where only one player could apply things like burning and poison, yes, condi damage was bad and was not accepted in serious groups. Despite how you feel about the issue, those are just facts. Your examples of immobilize over-performing has already been addressed to death, and it is very clear that sufficient and available counters already exist to keep those skills in check. Also, we don't have a conditions problem in PvP/WvW. The majority of meta builds in those modes are still power builds. Furthermore, a broken build doesn't mean that all of condition damage or all of power damage across the board is broken. It is a broken build, nothing more.

The Druid's pulsing immob in PvP does last one second, with exception of the Elite skill, which is 2. Also, pulsing conditions are newly applied conditions, which means they are the first ones cleansed.

 

I mean what I've been saying about immob has not been addressed, especially to death, seeing as there are still skills in the game that pulse 2s immob per pulse. You named one example.

Power damage only really "dominated" after power damage was buffed due to HoT. Before HoT there was a balance of power and condition builds, even when burning/poison was non-stackable. One in particular, seeing as you're an engi main, was the pistol/pistol condition build that still took sizeable chunks of your health away per second when you ramped up all of your conditions. As well, conditions builds were used more too as the condition clears weren't as bloated back then as well, and because of the fact that you didn't need 15 clears in one build to be considered "successful", people were more free to run builds that had little to no clear in them. Which meant that a condition build could beat it if it applied its damage properly. The only thing the condition build would have to worry about, was if the player escaped before death.

Conditions are not a problem in WvW because the massive condition clear from cleansing sigil among other things still exist. One most notable build is the support scrapper build, with a TON of clears. If cleansing sigil was as powerful in PvP, then conditions wouldn't be an issue there either, but you're starting to see more condition based builds come back into the game after the removal of how resistance used to work (immune to conditions). So your statements are objectively false, they are not "just facts". Nor do I base my assumptions based on how I feel.

Just to add a quick tidbit to address your statement of most builds in the "meta" are powerbuilds, those builds are also builds/classes that are high in condition clear/mitigation frequency.

[aymnad.9023]

Maybe if they updated the tooltips and the wiki for the pulse we would not see so many wrong comments about the duration…  It is every 1.5s on every source.

Also now that jacaranda is no more unblockable (trait change) we are clearly seeing build issues.

Edited May 19, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Stand The Wall.6987]

its pulsing immob and some specs burn to sustain ratio, the conditions themselves are fine

[Shaogin.2679]

13 hours ago, crewthief.8649 said:

There is no such thing as a rational discussion with a person who thinks a room full of people are all wrong, while they’re right. That is arrogance and narcissism. Now, you may not behave that way IRL, but that is irrelevant, tbh. You’re telling all of us that disagree with you that we are being emotional, and yet you cling to victimhood the first opportunity to get? 

[- “Being knowledgeable on a subject doesn't make me biased, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that of course.” -]
^That^ was a response of yours to someone disagreeing with you, earlier in the thread. It is the very definition of arrogant. That, along with claiming that “we” are acting out of emotion rather than facts, prompted my reply to you. 
 

Again, get over yourself. You don’t want to be a target? Don’t dismiss people as “emotional” just because they disagree with you. It’s okay, I’ve had to teach my kids the idea of consequences as well.

Again, I'm not alone, you're just oddly fixated on me. Not everyone is being emotional as well, just, you know, the emotional ones arguing like their ego and honor is on the line. As for my comment about not being biased, nothing arrogant about that. It is a complete cop-out to dismiss someone's statements by resorting to calling them biased, simply because they are actually familiar with the content being discussed. You simply want to see the worst in a stranger that you've decided that you don't like and disagrees with you. So instead of actually debating this topic with a cool head and objective statements, you're throwing around wild statements and personal attacks and honestly, you're derailing this thread pretty bad here.

13 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

I mean what I've been saying about immob has not been addressed, especially to death, seeing as there are still skills in the game that pulse 2s immob per pulse. You named one example.

Power damage only really "dominated" after power damage was buffed due to HoT. Before HoT there was a balance of power and condition builds, even when burning/poison was non-stackable. One in particular, seeing as you're an engi main, was the pistol/pistol condition build that still took sizeable chunks of your health away per second when you ramped up all of your conditions. As well, conditions builds were used more too as the condition clears weren't as bloated back then as well, and because of the fact that you didn't need 15 clears in one build to be considered "successful", people were more free to run builds that had little to no clear in them. Which meant that a condition build could beat it if it applied its damage properly. The only thing the condition build would have to worry about, was if the player escaped before death.

Conditions are not a problem in WvW because the massive condition clear from cleansing sigil among other things still exist. One most notable build is the support scrapper build, with a TON of clears. If cleansing sigil was as powerful in PvP, then conditions wouldn't be an issue there either, but you're starting to see more condition based builds come back into the game after the removal of how resistance used to work (immune to conditions). So your statements are objectively false, they are not "just facts". Nor do I base my assumptions based on how I feel.

Just to add a quick tidbit to address your statement of most builds in the "meta" are powerbuilds, those builds are also builds/classes that are high in condition clear/mitigation frequency.

I have actually listed how your complaints about immobilize have been addressed, and you yourself even admit that the meta power builds are perfectly capable of dealing with conditions. I would also like to point out that meta builds have ways to deal with power damage too, but we aren't here accusing power damage of being broken across the board. Also, as someone that was here from the start, dungeon runners weren't looking for condition builds, which was way before HoT. Power builds in a good group kill enemies too fast for the slow ramp up time of most condition builds to be effective. HoT was actually a wonderful expansion for condition builds, because many of the changes made to benefit condition builds occurred during the months leading up to HoT and afterwards, such as the higher stack limits and enemies with higher toughness.

 

Not sure why you bring up condi Engineer. I never said condition builds never existed, they were heavily outnumbered though. I think I can count on one hand how often the PvP meta was actually dominated by condition builds over the entire life time of the game, and those were never long lived. I don't really see how your statements make mine "objectively false", though I do actually appreciate someone trying to legitimately dispute facts. Just to recap, I stated that condition builds were in a bad state before the cap change because in PvE, they were completely out performed by power builds, and it was a hindrance to bring more than one condition build to the fight if you decided to bring one at all due to how the conditions worked back then. I also stated that since then, so much game balance has been centered on how conditions currently work, that I can only presume it would be a massive undertaking to revert such changes at this point, and it would just devastate these condition builds in PvE again. As for the PvP/WvW side of things, I only stated that we are not in a condition build meta, and this has been true for the majority of the life of this game. Feel free to tell me how those are facts are "objectively false" though.

[Ghos.1326]

9 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Again, I'm not alone, you're just oddly fixated on me. Not everyone is being emotional as well, just, you know, the emotional ones arguing like their ego and honor is on the line. As for my comment about not being biased, nothing arrogant about that. It is a complete cop-out to dismiss someone's statements by resorting to calling them biased, simply because they are actually familiar with the content being discussed. You simply want to see the worst in a stranger that you've decided that you don't like and disagrees with you. So instead of actually debating this topic with a cool head and objective statements, you're throwing around wild statements and personal attacks and honestly, you're derailing this thread pretty bad here.

I have actually listed how your complaints about immobilize have been addressed, and you yourself even admit that the meta power builds are perfectly capable of dealing with conditions. I would also like to point out that meta builds have ways to deal with power damage too, but we aren't here accusing power damage of being broken across the board. Also, as someone that was here from the start, dungeon runners weren't looking for condition builds, which was way before HoT. Power builds in a good group kill enemies too fast for the slow ramp up time of most condition builds to be effective. HoT was actually a wonderful expansion for condition builds, because many of the changes made to benefit condition builds occurred during the months leading up to HoT and afterwards, such as the higher stack limits and enemies with higher toughness.

 

Not sure why you bring up condi Engineer. I never said condition builds never existed, they were heavily outnumbered though. I think I can count on one hand how often the PvP meta was actually dominated by condition builds over the entire life time of the game, and those were never long lived. I don't really see how your statements make mine "objectively false", though I do actually appreciate someone trying to legitimately dispute facts. Just to recap, I stated that condition builds were in a bad state before the cap change because in PvE, they were completely out performed by power builds, and it was a hindrance to bring more than one condition build to the fight if you decided to bring one at all due to how the conditions worked back then. I also stated that since then, so much game balance has been centered on how conditions currently work, that I can only presume it would be a massive undertaking to revert such changes at this point, and it would just devastate these condition builds in PvE again. As for the PvP/WvW side of things, I only stated that we are not in a condition build meta, and this has been true for the majority of the life of this game. Feel free to tell me how those are facts are "objectively false" though.

In PvP/WvW, the majority of meta builds was not power based. Bunker Chrono was an example of an extremely strong condition build. Condition Reaper as well. Berserker, when it was played, was also focused on conditions. Scourge was a purely condition build before the recent changes to boons (and a few nerfs along the way). Mirage I think was a bit more hybrid, but its conditions were the pain givers. Firebrand was also condition/support based. Core ele was celestial, which is a combination of condition/power. Engineer was also celestial, a combination of condition/power. If I'm also not mistaken, warrior ran longbow and (hammer was it?), condition/power combo focused. I'd argue and say during core, there were more diversity of builds because the conditions didn't burst, they ramped up damage over time, again promoting the usage of skills on the utility slots other than clears.

 

HoT only introduced power creep on both sides, we seen that with bunker chrono (more along the defensive side of powercreep, but still powercreep), condition reaper (despite reaper's theme "designed" by anet to be more of a slow but big power damage spec) bruiser scrapper which did crazy damage + self sustain, and more. conditions really weren't bad during core either, as quite a few builds ran a celestial set up.

 

As for PvE, I still think it was fairly balanced, but I do remember people stacking serk stat players to rush through groups of enemies, though I also recall people bringing condition builds to help wittle down enemies as well, and also reversing conditions dealt to the team back onto the enemies. So in other words, in PvE I tend to agree with you, however not fully (this is where I think a PvE/PvP split should happen with the conditions). 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Ghos.1326

[Shaogin.2679]

15 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

In PvP/WvW, the majority of meta builds was not power based. Bunker Chrono was an example of an extremely strong condition build. Condition Reaper as well. Berserker, when it was played, was also focused on conditions. Scourge was a purely condition build before the recent changes to boons (and a few nerfs along the way). Mirage I think was a bit more hybrid, but its conditions were the pain givers. Firebrand was also condition/support based. Core ele was celestial, which is a combination of condition/power. Engineer was also celestial, a combination of condition/power. If I'm also not mistaken, warrior ran longbow and (hammer was it?), condition/power combo focused. I'd argue and say during core, there were more diversity of builds because the conditions didn't burst, they ramped up damage over time, again promoting the usage of skills on the utility slots other than clears.

 

HoT only introduced power creep on both sides, we seen that with bunker chrono (more along the defensive side of powercreep, but still powercreep), condition reaper (despite reaper's theme "designed" by anet to be more of a slow but big power damage spec) bruiser scrapper which did crazy damage + self sustain, and more. conditions really weren't bad during core either, as quite a few builds ran a celestial set up.

 

As for PvE, I still think it was fairly balanced, but I do remember people stacking serk stat players to rush through groups of enemies, though I also recall people bringing condition builds to help wittle down enemies as well, and also reversing conditions dealt to the team back onto the enemies. So in other words, in PvE I tend to agree with you, however not fully (this is where I think a PvE/PvP split should happen with the conditions). 

A PvE/PvP split could work, but that would be one hell of a split. I mean, entire traitlines, weapons, and skill types would have to see massive changes to not only how conditions synergize with builds, but also all the condition defenses would have to be massively toned down. Honestly if they went back to the old condition stack limits for PvP, we'd probably use things like condition engineer make a return because you know longer have to worry about getting high stacks of burn, you just need to maintain and constantly reapply the one stack. I just don't foresee them ever taking on such a daunting split like that.

[Locuz.2651]

The only justifiable complaints are complaints about stuff that isnt easily counterable. 

 

Both burns and immob (roots) are easily counterable. They work really well against bad players since bad players struggle with the basics.

 

- They forget that u can kill the roots in 2-3 autoattack swings. 

- They forget that burnguard is easily kitable and has very little sustain and reset potential.  

 

So yes if youre the type of player that just runs on point and sits there in aoe ...with no kiting, dodging or cleansing/breaking CC youll struggle with these 2 conditions. 

 

For all the players who pvped for longer than a week this shouldnt be an issue.