Good job on the DH longbow changes!

[Ragnar.4257]

On 5/21/2021 at 10:07 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

All that GS guardian has?

 

Why are you ignoring that guardian has a permanent health regeneration from his virtues?

Which can also get activated for an additional heal and condition removal.

 

In emergency, you can also activate the aegis virtue to get another aegis immediately (or a directional block in case of dragonhunter)

 

Saying that all built in sustain guardian has is "one block every 45 seconds" is straight up lying.

1. The health regeneration is not permanent if you're using the active to cleanse.

2. It's 84 hp per second. That'll take over 2 minutes to make up the difference in HP between guard and warrior, assuming you're able to just leave it on passive entire time.

3. In the more likely scenario where you're using it pretty much on CD, it's a 1.6k heal every 30s. Which again means it'll take over 2 minutes to make up the difference.

4. Similarly, the passive F3 is not going to proc every 40s if you're using it actively to block. 

 

So the only scenario where this health regeneration makes up the difference is in a 1v1 that goes on for more than 2 minutes.

 

In a more realistic scenario in game, where you've got a whole team of people trying to burst you down, 84 hp/s means literally nothing, and the buffer provided by an additional 8k HP is far superior.

 

Simple test, take a guardian and a warrior, and have them stand still and let an opponent freely cast damage onto them. The guardian can also use its F2/3. Who do you think will go down first?

Edited May 23, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Buran.3796]

22 hours ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

 

warrior would like to have a word with you regarding build diversity

   I agree and that's why I said "amongst" instead of "the worst". Warrior in PvP is and has been "malnourished" for months, and not only is lacking in build variety but also we pretty much only see a couple of weapons being used. February's 2020 patch nerfed the damage to all the classes but the hit was specially large in the ones which had slowly telegraphed attacks which combined cc and decent damage...   Suddenly weapons as Warrior's hammer became garbage with a finger snap.

[Tharan.9085]

On 5/22/2021 at 1:10 AM, Ragnar.4257 said:

I agree Trapper DH shouldn't be a thing.

 

But without it, LB is pretty much unusable as a weapon.

 

If you don't go full glass, your True-Shots hit for 2k, and your autos for 300. If you do go full glass, you melt as soon as F3 runs out. Unless you have stealth from trapper.

 

If it were me, I'd remove trapper runes completely, and rework Longbow, Hammer and GS into viable weapons without cheese mechanics.

 

I want guardian to not always be locked into playing degen builds that rely on symbols, trapper runes, passive burn ticks. But at the moment, that's all its options (aside from support, but that shouldn't be only viable option. If you think it is, ask spellbreakers how they feel about that).

I think you played DH wrong if you get 2k true shots

[Ragnar.4257]

43 minutes ago, Tharan.9085 said:

I think you played DH wrong if you get 2k true shots

https://i.imgur.com/7JmIRSF.jpg

 

This is unbuffed true-shot on medium golem, using Marauder amulet. Crits for 3.5k, non-crit for 2k.

 

My point was, that if you don't take full-glass traits, then the damage is garbage. Sure you can hit 10k+ if you go full YOLO, but then you'll die super-fast, unless you have trapper stealth. Which was my whole point.

 

The only feasible way of playing longbow is to go full zerker, 100% damage traits, and use cheese mechanics to cheese a cheesy kill. There is no viable non-cheese way to use this weapon.

 

Remove the cheese, remove trapper runes, and then make it so LB can actually kill someone without needing to take zerker amulet and 9x damage traits.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Liewec.2896]

On 5/21/2021 at 8:22 AM, DanSH.6143 said:

The problem with any Power dps guard right now is that they have to run zerker to have meaningful damage.

And with zerker they only have 11k health, they'll always be rather weak because of that limitation.

was about to type this.

i decided to try zerker DH since its about the only thing i haven't tried (since they nerfed it feb 2020)

and i just can't justify having 11k HP for "decent" damage when i can pump out way more damage on way safer classes.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Liewec.2896

[DanSH.6143]

31 minutes ago, Liewec.2896 said:

was about to type this.

i decided to try zerker DH since its about the only thing i haven't tried (since they nerfed it feb 2020)

and i just can't justify having 11k HP for "decent" damage when i can pump out way more damage on way safer classes.

Definetly, I think if Radiance, Dragon Hunter or Zeal specs had a vitality trait, it would go a long way to help power dps guards, while not buffing support/bunker guards. 

[Shao.7236]

8 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Simple test, take a guardian and a warrior, and have them stand still and let an opponent freely cast damage onto them. The guardian can also use its F2/3. Who do you think will go down first?

That's a bit flawed because in practice the block can stop a strong attack that would make Guardian come out victor.

 

And against conditions you could wait for the biggest ramp up then clear while Warrior is just plain stuck with it.

 

In general having such utility available at anytime is a strong mechanic.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Math.5123]

6 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

That's a bit flawed because in practice the block can stop a strong attack that would make Guardian come out victor.

 

And against conditions you could wait for the biggest ramp up then clear while Warrior is just plain stuck with it.

 

In general having such utility available at anytime is a strong mechanic.

I'd take durational blocks or evades frames over a single aegis on a 40s cd.

 

Guard is one of two classes with no evade frames. 

[The Fear.3865]

On 5/21/2021 at 9:22 AM, DanSH.6143 said:

The problem with any Power dps guard right now is that they have to run zerker to have meaningful damage.

And with zerker they only have 11k health, they'll always be rather weak because of that limitation.

That's also why guards mostly played condition builds before it was ulta-mega nerfed, because they could run carrion and actually have some hp.

You should try ele boi 🙈

[DanSH.6143]

3 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

You should try ele boi 🙈

True, Ele has the same problem 

[Vancho.8750]

15 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

https://i.imgur.com/7JmIRSF.jpg

 

This is unbuffed true-shot on medium golem, using Marauder amulet. Crits for 3.5k, non-crit for 2k.

 

My point was, that if you don't take full-glass traits, then the damage is garbage. Sure you can hit 10k+ if you go full YOLO, but then you'll die super-fast, unless you have trapper stealth. Which was my whole point.

 

The only feasible way of playing longbow is to go full zerker, 100% damage traits, and use cheese mechanics to cheese a cheesy kill. There is no viable non-cheese way to use this weapon.

 

Remove the cheese, remove trapper runes, and then make it so LB can actually kill someone without needing to take zerker amulet and 9x damage traits.

I think you want to use DH Longbow for something that is not meant to be, it is not a damage weapon, it is a control weapon with nice enough burst skill, I don't think there is another ranged weapon with 2 hard ccs on it and AOE on top of it. Also 4 k +-  is the default damage output for big hitting skills with marauder for every class .  

[Ragnar.4257]

12 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

I think you want to use DH Longbow for something that is not meant to be, it is not a damage weapon, it is a control weapon with nice enough burst skill, I don't think there is another ranged weapon with 2 hard ccs on it and AOE on top of it. Also 4 k +-  is the default damage output for big hitting skills with marauder for every class .  

So you would rather keep LB/Trapper in its current cheese-mode form where it ganks for 10k out of stealth, rather than removing trapper and giving LB the changes it needs to be a "fair" weapon?

 

People actually arguing to retain degen builds. Amazing.

[Vancho.8750]

1 minute ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

So you would rather keep LB/Trapper in its current cheese-mode form where it ganks for 10k out of stealth, rather than removing trapper and giving LB the changes it needs to be a "fair" weapon?

 

People actually arguing to retain degen builds. Amazing.

Never said that, why are you making kitten up. Very "what about" of you. I'm saying that LB is a good weapon it just that you want to do more than it is supposed to be. You can always run Dragon hunter runes and have 15 might stacks to hit for 6 k on true shot.  

[DanSH.6143]

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Never said that, why are you making kitten up. Very "what about" of you. I'm saying that LB is a good weapon it just that you want to do more than it is supposed to be. You can always run Dragon hunter runes and have 15 might stacks to hit for 6 k on true shot.  

Running Dragon Hunter runes gives up a lot of survivability from Trapper runes. 

 

 

 

[Ragnar.4257]

5 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Never said that, why are you making kitten up. Very "what about" of you. I'm saying that LB is a good weapon it just that you want to do more than it is supposed to be. You can always run Dragon hunter runes and have 15 might stacks to hit for 6 k on true shot.  

Oh sure, I'll just pop 3 utilities to make a 6k attack. Sounds totally viable.

 

Look, we can nit-pick numbers all day, but the fact remains that berserker-trapperRune-LB-DH is sort of viable in ranked, but still isn't something anyone wants on a serious team, and that a non-trapper LB DH is a totally non-existent build only played for memes. If it were possible to make LB work like you say, people would. They don't.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Vancho.8750]

6 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Oh sure, I'll just pop 3 utilities to make a 6k attack. Sounds totally viable.

Pretty sure that is your main output of damage anyway so.

You can get  away 2 traps even with dragon maw for 20 stack of might.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Vancho.8750

[Ragnar.4257]

6 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Pretty sure that is your main output of damage anyway so.

You can get  away 2 traps even with dragon maw for 20 stack of might.

Look, we can nit-pick numbers all day, but the fact remains that berserker-trapperRune-LB-DH is sort of viable in ranked, but still isn't something anyone wants on a serious team, and that a non-trapper LB DH is a totally non-existent build only played for memes. If it were possible to make LB work like you say, people would. They don't.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Crozame.4098]

21 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

https://i.imgur.com/7JmIRSF.jpg

 

This is unbuffed true-shot on medium golem, using Marauder amulet. Crits for 3.5k, non-crit for 2k.

 

My point was, that if you don't take full-glass traits, then the damage is garbage. Sure you can hit 10k+ if you go full YOLO, but then you'll die super-fast, unless you have trapper stealth. Which was my whole point.

 

The only feasible way of playing longbow is to go full zerker, 100% damage traits, and use cheese mechanics to cheese a cheesy kill. There is no viable non-cheese way to use this weapon.

 

Remove the cheese, remove trapper runes, and then make it so LB can actually kill someone without needing to take zerker amulet and 9x damage traits.

The whole kittening point is the aids of the trapper rune.

[Ragnar.4257]

3 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

The whole kittening point is the aids of the trapper rune.

That's my point too? Did you even read what I wrote? It literally says on the last line of my post you quoted "remove trapper runes".

[Vancho.8750]

17 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Look, we can nit-pick numbers all day, but the fact remains that berserker-trapperRune-LB-DH is sort of viable in ranked, but still isn't something anyone wants on a serious team, and that a non-trapper LB DH is a totally non-existent build only played for memes. If it were possible to make LB work like you say, people would. They don't.

The reason it is not in tournament play is the same rune that makes the build it turns DH into a stealth class, which means less bodies in fights so people will take more beating then usual .

Longbow is fine or even better then fine, it is a Long range hammer , traps are strong and DH probably has the most unblockable skills just for existing in the game, traps are also the reason why Longbow is not doing more damage since the output is spread . True shot does great damage even without gimmicks I know it is not ranger output but ranger has allot of selfish skills, while guardian is all about group buffs and group control even on DH.

What could be changed is giving back some damage to deflecting shot(that applies to allot huge tell cc) and change to the symbol since I still don't get the idea behind it., is it there to send a light field so people spin in it to cleanse, weird skill.     

[Ragnar.4257]

3 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The reason it is not in tournament play is the same rune that makes the build it turns DH into a stealth class, which means less bodies in fights so people will take more beating then usual .

Longbow is fine or even better then fine, it is a Long range hammer , traps are strong and DH probably has the most unblockable skills just for existing in the game, traps are also the reason why Longbow is not doing more damage since the output is spread . True shot does great damage even without gimmicks I know it is not ranger output but ranger has allot of selfish skills, while guardian is all about group buffs and group control even on DH.

What could be changed is giving back some damage to deflecting shot(that applies to allot huge tell cc) and change to the symbol since I still don't get the idea behind it., is it there to send a light field so people spin in it to cleanse, weird skill.     

Yes, it's so fine that nobody wants it on their team. Makes sense.

[Math.5123]

20 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The reason it is not in tournament play is the same rune that makes the build it turns DH into a stealth class, which means less bodies in fights so people will take more beating then usual .

Longbow is fine or even better then fine, it is a Long range hammer , traps are strong and DH probably has the most unblockable skills just for existing in the game, traps are also the reason why Longbow is not doing more damage since the output is spread . True shot does great damage even without gimmicks I know it is not ranger output but ranger has allot of selfish skills, while guardian is all about group buffs and group control even on DH.

What could be changed is giving back some damage to deflecting shot(that applies to allot huge tell cc) and change to the symbol since I still don't get the idea behind it., is it there to send a light field so people spin in it to cleanse, weird skill.     

The issue about playing a damage dealer with 11k health and no evade frames is that it dies to literally any half coordinated spike from one - two enemy players. It has no mobilty, gets shut down by projectile hate. And the sustained damage is actually very low compared to holo, rev, thief and mirage. That is the reason no one plays it, not because trapper runes gives you one less body on the field. 

[Ragnar.4257]

22 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Yes, it's so fine that nobody wants it on their team. Makes sense.

To the people reacting "confused" to this post. Vancho literally just explained why nobody wants it on their team. All I did was repeat that.

 

And the empirical evidence is that nobody wants it on their team. Because nobody plays it in tournament.

 

Grow up.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Kuma.1503]

Trapper DH definately has more burst damage in a single hit than most. I can hit 11-12k trueshots against players easily. 

Then you just kinda stand there contributing nothing until your cooldowns are back up. 

 

Spear of Justice from stealth is pretty funny though. For some reason, people still panic in the dragon's maw and die to it. 

You'd think they would've learned after dealing with burn DH for months straight. 

[Vancho.8750]

4 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

The issue about playing a damage dealer with 11k health and no evade frames is that it dies to literally any half coordinated spike from one - two enemy players. It has no mobilty, gets shut down by projectile hate. And the sustained damage is actually very low compared to holo, rev, thief and mirage. That is the reason no one plays it, not because trapper runes gives you one less body on the field. 

The other reason is that DH was never meant to be gank speck, the whole kit screams area control but that is usually left for the designated teamfighters usually some necro and a support, so the slots left are roamer/decapper ain't gona work with guard since you could always get a rev and side noder but that ain't working if you have stealth.