Is the 11k health full glass cannon DH longbow Trapper build op?

[DanSH.6143]

2 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Any if them with effects as strong as Trapper? Trooper runes clears 1 condi per shout,  Trapper gives 3 seconds of Superspeed and stealth per trap. Very very very big difference in strength here. 

Considering they give condition dmg which is useless to LB DH, stealth and super speed is all they give. 

Soldier Runes enable Support Core Guard hard, with them, they clear 2 condi on every shout. While they only add 1 condi clear, without them the shout build isn't as viable.

 

I don't realy like Trapper Runes because they add too much stealth imo, but their design overall is good and enables builds that otherwise would be bad.

We need more runea that feel strong and integrate well within builds.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

knowing anet all this talk about trap rune will result in an elixir s nerf

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Just now, DanSH.6143 said:

Considering they give condition dmg which is useless to LB DH, stealth and super speed is all they give.

This should tell you something about how overpowered trapper runes are.

Just now, DanSH.6143 said:

I don't realy like Trapper Runes because they add too much stealth imo, but their design overall is good and enables builds

There are a lot of things that could enable new builds. That doesnt mean its good design.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

5 minutes ago, DanSH.6143 said:

Considering they give condition dmg which is useless to LB DH, stealth and super speed is all they give. 

Soldier Runes enable Support Core Guard hard, with them, they clear 2 condi on every shout. While they only add 1 condi clear, without them the shout build isn't as viable.

 

I don't realy like Trapper Runes because they add too much stealth imo, but their design overall is good and enables builds that otherwise would be bad.

We need more runea that feel strong and integrate well within builds.

Trooper rune adds to something guard is already doing and just makes it better. That two cleanse per shout isn't trooper by itself, it's trooper in top of a mechanic guardian is already using. 

 

Trapper straight up adds unique things the class is incapable of doing otherwise, someone correct me if guard has any superspeed because I can't remember atm. It being condi damage bonus is only a problem because DH shifted to power. When Burn Trapper was relevant, it was a perfect rune. Also *only* superspeed and stealth? Those two are some of the strongest effects in the game and Trapper gives both with no cooldown. This rune doesn't integrate with the build, it's the primary reason it's even usable, which speaks to how bad traps are as a concept and how overtuned Trapper runes are in carrying traps singlehandedly.  

[felix.2386]

its not op, but the damage is insane tho.

warrior had that kind of damage on berserker and it was nerfed by 25%+ in 2 weeks lol.

too unfair.

 

not op as in, not playable in organized 5v5 tournament (cuz 11k hp too low), but plenty playable and wreck people in ranked.

Edited June 4, 2021 by felix.2386

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

14 hours ago, Liewec.2896 said:

nope these are both fairly recent, soulbeast clip is from March,

only change since is a slight buff from the recent "Furious Strength: Increased bonus damage from 7% to 10%." buff.

but you're right its about half the hilarity that it used to be, before the soulbeast nerf it was absolutely hilarious.

 

as for "exploding on sight" both characters have blocks and escapes, ranger is susceptible to condis though.

 

but i don't wanna get too far off topic, i just don't think there is a reason for guardians to be sitting on 11k health when classes that can do way more damage are sitting on 50-100% more.

 

 

The 8k Smoke Assault gives it away.

 

You can't be working marks mods to generate AoO or MoC or Remorseless during those consecutive strikes, so the fact that you land a stern 8k Smoke Assault with no One Wolf Pack shows the footage is from a time well before current patching before all the nerfing, as well as bringing up the question of who is off screen there buffing you, and noticing that you are standing in EC in that footage I'm sure probably with Sword Artifact.

 

A No One Wolf Smoke Assault nowadays is realistically a 3k-4k attack from buffed glass cannons even against a squishy like a Thief. So I don't know exactly from what era that gif was made or what exact circle of prebuffing was being used offscreen there but what is being shown in that gif is in no way a realistic example to use while comparing Soulbeast damage output to anything.

 

And by the way, the Furious buff was for PvE only. It doesn't apply in PvP.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Exile.8160]

20 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Trapper rune was very much meta during Burn Trappers peak, and the fact that only two classes can use them is probably one of the only things saving them from getting butchered. Resistance runes were far weaker in comparison but usable on a large variety of builds yet they get nerfed into oblivion and then nerfed even more with the Resistance changes. 

 

Add in that the two builds that do run Trapper runes are some of the most frustrating and annoying builds to deal with, in my opinion, I'd say a nerf to the runes is warranted. Traps are an obsolete concept in the game at this point anyway and this rune is the only thing keeping them relevant because of how incredibly overtuned it is. 

First of all stop being hangup/mad at a past build no point in it burn dh was nerf and its no longer viable so why use it for an argument? Its like me complaning about the old ham/bow war build today. 

 

Its no diffrent from a thief play style specially a Deadeye so why is that ok and not these runes?  and asking to leave dead the trap mechanic is the most lazy and selfis way to deal with them.

 

The builds arent even meta. They have very clear weaknesses use them instead of asking a nerf while leaving more classes without options to play. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Exile.8160

[Tinkerer.2167]

No but trapper rune should be nerfed or removed, lower stealth uptime or put an icd between trap use. 

[Exile.8160]

1 hour ago, Tinkerer.2167 said:

No but trapper rune should be nerfed or removed, lower stealth uptime or put an icd between trap use. 

Why?

[Tinkerer.2167]

19 minutes ago, Exile.8160 said:

Why?

Cheese design, carries a build entirely... Runes should be accessory to builds, not carry. Even resistance doesn't carry anymore because they nerfed how resistance works.

 

Most run scholar/divinity and give stats. A rune that gives stealth and superspeed for an entire 3 seconds it just bad design at its core. 

 

Builds shouldn't be centered entirely around runes like DH is, runes should accomodate builds. If you have a rune that can make nothing into something, then the build needs to be buffed, in the case of DH, more defensives so they don't blow up when focused and the rune needs to be nerfed or removed.

 

This is just 101 bad design.

[Exile.8160]

21 minutes ago, Tinkerer.2167 said:

Cheese design, carries a build entirely... Runes should be accessory to builds, not carry. Even resistance doesn't carry anymore because they nerfed how resistance works.

 

Most run scholar/divinity and give stats. A rune that gives stealth and superspeed for an entire 3 seconds it just bad design at its core. 

 

Builds shouldn't be centered entirely around runes like DH is, runes should accomodate builds. If you have a rune that can make nothing into something, then the build needs to be buffed, in the case of DH, more defensives so they don't blow up when focused and the rune needs to be nerfed or removed.

 

This is just 101 bad design.

Says who its a cheese build? Says who its suppose to be only an accessory? You didnt made the game so why do you get to decide whats what? Its in the game for a reason that only the devs can say. 

 

So you are telling me core support guard can run the same without soldier rune than without it? Or the many many builds that run lynx for the speed boost? I call kitten on your excuses. A rune is just as part of a build than a amulet is. 

 

The bigger question you should be asking why are all guard builds are so dependent of runes unlike some other classes and try to fix it from the. Asking for more nerfs (specially on build that arent even meta) only in more bad metas. 

[Tinkerer.2167]

13 minutes ago, Exile.8160 said:

Says who its a cheese build? Says who its suppose to be only an accessory? You didnt made the game so why do you get to decide whats what? Its in the game for a reason that only the devs can say. 

 

So you are telling me core support guard can run the same without soldier rune than without it? Or the many many builds that run lynx for the speed boost? I call kitten on your excuses. A rune is just as part of a build than a amulet is. 

 

The bigger question you should be asking why are all guard builds are so dependent of runes unlike some other classes and try to fix it from the. Asking for more nerfs (specially on build that arent even meta) only in more bad metas. 

Are you arguing why a rune is taking a build that would be absolutely nothing and making it into a good ranked build just based on the rune alone and wondering why this isn't good design?

 

"The bigger question you should be asking why are all guard builds are so dependent of runes unlike some other classes and try to fix it from the. Asking for more nerfs (specially on build that arent even meta) only in more bad metas. "

 

Then you agree that the rune is reliant and transforms and the build itself should be buffed like I typed? 

 

3 seconds of stealth and superspeed slotted on a run with no ICD is cheesy, and I ask you to name another rune that could have this kind of impact on a build with any other rune. 

 

Also, you're comparing 25% movement speed with 3 seconds of superspeed and invis. Movement speed unto which gets negated upon receiving swiftness. If you're going to go with a defense, you should have typed that superspeed can't be stacked but trying to equate 25% passive movement speed, a buff that multiple runes do and there's even a rune that gives higher speed if you have swiftness to 3 secs of superspeed and invis is just a reach and a half.

 

It makes me question you don't really understand when a build is centered around something, and not something augmenting a build. Any build is fine without movement speed, DH is nothing without Trapper runes, it's just a walking target. This is why reveal is good against them.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Tinkerer.2167

[Exile.8160]

14 minutes ago, Tinkerer.2167 said:

Are you arguing why a rune is taking a build that would be absolutely nothing and making it into a good ranked build just based on the rune alone and wondering why this isn't good design?

 

"The bigger question you should be asking why are all guard builds are so dependent of runes unlike some other classes and try to fix it from the. Asking for more nerfs (specially on build that arent even meta) only in more bad metas. "

 

Then you agree that the rune is reliant and transforms and the build itself should be buffed like I typed? 

 

3 seconds of stealth and superspeed slotted on a run with no ICD is cheesy, and I ask you to name another rune that could have this kind of impact on a build with any other rune. 

 

Also, you're comparing 25% movement speed with 3 seconds of superspeed and invis. Movement speed unto which gets negated upon receiving swiftness. If you're going to go with a defense, you should have typed that superspeed can't be stacked but trying to equate 25% passive movement speed, a buff that multiple runes do and there's even a rune that gives higher speed if you have swiftness to 3 secs of superspeed and invis is just a reach and a half.

 

It makes me question you don't really understand when a build is centered around something, and not something augmenting a build. Any build is fine without movement speed, DH is nothing without Trapper runes, it's just a walking target. This is why reveal is good against them.

 

You didnt even mention soldiers rune did you.... mmhh wonder why? Oh yeah its a build that without the rune it woulnt even be meta!! Which also anwers a question u had for me.

 

Idk about you but perma 25% speed boost is huge in pvp mobility in general, its actually one of the most important thing to have in conquest. You cant deny that. 

 

So a build that runs it is solely relying on the rune to get something its build doesnt give...mmmh where have I seen that??

 

Listen the build has bad mobility, 11k health its defensive skill are also its dmg one (stealth on traps) so if use to run they arent dealing dmg and if they are use for dmg guess what he cant use it defensively. In fact as u yourself mention a simple reveal shreads it appart. 

 

The build has such clear weakness that if you die to them its on you. Unlike the scourge or prot holo that for some reason get a pass  over build thats not even meta. 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

7 hours ago, Exile.8160 said:

First of all stop being hangup/mad at a past build no point in it burn dh was nerf and its no longer viable so why use it for an argument? Its like me complaning about the old ham/bow war build today. 

 

Its no diffrent from a thief play style specially a Deadeye so why is that ok and not these runes?  and asking to leave dead the trap mechanic is the most lazy and selfis way to deal with them.

 

The builds arent even meta. They have very clear weaknesses use them instead of asking a nerf while leaving more classes without options to play. 

You said the runes didn't make them meta and that is objectively false. It might not be meta -right now-, but when Burn Trapper was facerolling everywhere Trapper runes were a major contributing factor, I'd argue the biggest. 

 

Deadeye thief is built from the ground up around stealth, it's nothing new to the class that they didn't already have. If you gave DE a bunch of blocks and ranged bursts they can access in stealth like DH,  then it would be a problem but thief can't do that, so that's a false equivalent. Trapper rune gives guardian access to things it otherwise can't do, which is not what a rune is supposed to do. Trapper is disproportionately strong in its effects vs any other rune and it doesn't even have a CD. It allows otherwise bad builds that run without even stunbreaks to be usable because the rune patches so many of the holes. It carries the builds. 

 

The builds being meta or not is irrelevant, and if anything Trapper is a key factor in why Burn guard got nerfed so dramatically. Despite it being a condi rune, a power build is using it. It's so strong that traps are relying on it singlehandedly to be usable. That means Trapper is too strong and traps are poorly designed. 

[Liewec.2896]

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

The 8k Smoke Assault gives it away.

 

bringing up the question of who is off screen there buffing you, and noticing that you are standing in EC in that footage I'm sure probably with Sword Artifact.

I don't know exactly from what era that gif was made or what exact circle of prebuffing was being used offscreen there but what is being shown in that gif is in no way a realistic example to use while comparing Soulbeast damage output to anything.

like i said, it was march this year (the 10th to be exact), just rewatched the video, had the sword buff so there is an extra 20% there, but no debuffs on the target from anyone else, and no external buffs on me from allies, noone else around.

you don't need to believe any of this, but its the truth 🙂

 

anyways i don't wanna sidetrack this topic any more with talk about better zerker classes (which is every other class!),

Anet, please give guardians either more damage or more health!

[Crozame.4098]

Stealth burst, stealth burst, stleath burst, its just unhealthy game play.

And you really dont need much more hp to survive. 

1) You are doing ranged dmg, trying to avoid the crowd. 

2) You have 3 traps that gives you super speed and stealth to run away. Also, two of them are instant cast.

3) you have port, F2 F3 and RF.

4) You also have teammates, and not everyone bothers to chase you off node. -- how many times we hear: fight on point~~

5) I am not saying  its super OP, and it is not used in ATs, but its bad to the game. And trapper runes allows other degenerate builds.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Crozame.4098

[DanSH.6143]

9 hours ago, Crozame.4098 said:

Stealth burst, stealth burst, stleath burst, its just unhealthy game play.

And you really dont need much more hp to survive. 

1) You are doing ranged dmg, trying to avoid the crowd. 

2) You have 3 traps that gives you super speed and stealth to run away. Also, two of them are instant cast.

3) you have port, F2 F3 and RF.

4) You also have teammates, and not everyone bothers to chase you off node. -- how many times we hear: fight on point~~

5) I am not saying  its super OP, and it is not used in ATs, but its bad to the game. And trapper runes allows other degenerate builds.

 

Stealth burst stealth burst - that's literaly thief, mesmer and ranger right now. And its thief's class identity. If it's a reason to nerf DH, it should also be a reason to nerf them.

 

Doing ranged dmg and having F2 and F3 doesn't solve the survivability issue. 11k health is extremely limiting.

The only thing that somewhat makes up for it is stealth & superspeed from Trappers.

Though with all that, DH is basically the same gameplay as Deadeye, just worse.

 

Having team mates - every build equally enjoys "having team mates" idk how that's a redeeming quality for 11k health DH.

 

If they want to change trappers because there's too much stealth in the game, sure. But people need to stop acting like trappers or dh is op. DH is a noob stomper, that's it.

Dps guardian in general will always be underpowered because it has to run with 11k health to deal dmg. 

[Mik.3401]

On 6/3/2021 at 9:01 PM, DanSH.6143 said:

So Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are uninteractive too?

In terms of dmg from stealth, zerker DH is the least offender, as it will mostly use True Shot when Spear of Justice is applied to the target, which reveals the DH. The traps are decent but they don't 1 Shot anyone, if you're talking about Dragon's Maw, Zerk DH doesn't use it.

i think all mesmer and thief have some limits to un-interactive gameplay as they cannot spike like 50% health with traps in a matter of a second on top of other attacks and pull. They can burst heavily but it comes at much higher risk relative to their defensive options imho.

 

DH has heavy armor as a cherry on top. 

It is surely op, if it didn’t have 11k it would be as criminal as scourge.

 

ranger I agree can be op as well if played right, but I think it takes much more muscle to perfect ranger than DH which makes DH op as well because ease of play is a huge factor for success

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Mik.3401

[DanSH.6143]

2 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

i think all 3 classes you mentioned have some limits to un-interactive gameplay as they cannot spike like 50% health with traps in a matter of a second on top of other attacks and pull. Ranger can do similar thing but the damage output is not as ridiculous from what I seen.

 

They can burst heavily but it comes at much higher risk in my opinion (just ok - in case of Ranger it is debatable).

 

Besides - DH has heavy armor as a cherry on top. Additionally - it is a glass cannon build with an ok access to condi cleanses, ranged and melee offensive options etc etc

It is surely op, if it didn’t have 11k Ho it would be as criminal as scourge

 

Ranger can kill anything but bunkers with a Rapid Fire + Sic Em + One Wolf Pack and can do it with quickness.

Mesners can one shot too with shatter combos out of stealth.

Thieves whole identity is dealing high bursf dmg out of stealth, Deadeye even more so.

 

DH has one of the lowest access to cleanse, 2 condi clear on 24 cd. That's it.

How is access to ovensive melee and range options op?

DH is a worse version of Deadeye, that's it.

Claiming it's op is ridiculous

[Mik.3401]

Just now, DanSH.6143 said:

Ranger can kill anything but bunkers with a Rapid Fire + Sic Em + One Wolf Pack and can do it with quickness.

Mesners can one shot too with shatter combos out of stealth.

Thieves whole identity is dealing high bursf dmg out of stealth, Deadeye even more so.

 

DH has one of the lowest access to cleanse, 2 condi clear on 24 cd. That's it.

How is access to ovensive melee and range options op?

DH is a worse version of Deadeye, that's it.

Claiming it's op is ridiculous

Just edited my post before you posted, you’re right - ranger is op as well in that department. Mesmers and thieves can spike hard that’s true but there are no afk options to do it like traps with low cds. For condi cleanse I can see people run concentration utility to get right of unlimited number of condis.

[Crozame.4098]

1 hour ago, DanSH.6143 said:

Doing ranged dmg and having F2 and F3 doesn't solve the survivability issue.

I have nothing to say mate... If having ranged dmg, F2, F3, 2 ports, RF, and traps cannot help you to survive, then git gut I guess.

 

Also, take thief for example. Even though it has teammates, it cannot stay in a team fight too long, because its main dmg is melee and it takes AOE damage...

[Exile.8160]

51 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

Just edited my post before you posted, you’re right - ranger is op as well in that department. Mesmers and thieves can spike hard that’s true but there are no afk options to do it like traps with low cds. For condi cleanse I can see people run concentration utility to get right of unlimited number of condis.

Wait traps are the one that are OP now? This are the easiest to avoid in a 1v1 if he goes stealth guess what theres a trap there dont walk there..... its also 1 less trap that he can use while he is stealth to spike u meaning his dmg is basically half. 

 

People get angry about traps cuz its ez to use yet they themselve dont use their brains to fight them.

[Mik.3401]

44 minutes ago, Exile.8160 said:

Wait traps are the one that are OP now? This are the easiest to avoid in a 1v1 if he goes stealth guess what theres a trap there dont walk there..... its also 1 less trap that he can use while he is stealth to spike u meaning his dmg is basically half. 

 

People get angry about traps cuz its ez to use yet they themselve dont use their brains to fight them.

this I just an afk damage option, it will always be op in comparison to active gameplay damage. If you don’t agree it’s ok. Traps are not the only thing of course, the burn guard can still score numerous kills with little effort, I know it as I did it myself in ranked having mediocre knowledge of the class

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Just now, Exile.8160 said:

Wait traps are the one that are OP now? This are the easiest to avoid in a 1v1 if he goes stealth guess what theres a trap there dont walk there..... its also 1 less trap that he can use while he is stealth to spike u meaning his dmg is basically half. 

 

People get angry about traps cuz its ez to use yet they themselve dont use their brains to fight them.

what part of my brain do i have to use to not fight in traps when contesting a node

[Ragnar.4257]

46 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

what part of my brain do i have to use to not fight in traps when contesting a node

The part of the brain that can analyze "space" and "time".

 

The only trap in this build that can potentially force you off a node is Procession of Blades. This trap does not actually cover the entire node, so if you position correctly you're fine. Also it only lasts 2 seconds, so you can trigger it, move away for 2 seconds, and then re-engage.

 

And, more importantly, if the DH is using Procession of Blades to pressure the node, that means he cannot ALSO be using it to gain stealth and kite or setup LB bursts. Infact, the smart play is to intentionally trigger the trap and take the first tick of damage, since this will reveal the DH and nullify the advantage of trapper rune.

 

Fun fact, this is the best way to nullify LB-trapper DH. Just stick to him at all times and trigger the traps as soon as he drops them, which means he's permanently revealed. The only class that might have any trouble sticking to a DH and instantly popping the traps is necro, and they're not exactly struggling at the moment. Mesmers and Rangers are even able to do this without going anywhere near a trap themselves.

 

I guarantee, that when a DH is wanting to kite away and drops a trap to do so, and you instantly deny it by proc'ing the trap and reveal him, that DH is internally screaming "fkfkfkfkfkfkfk".

Edited June 8, 2021 by Ragnar.4257