So when are pets gonna be put at a reasonable level?

[Shao.7236]

I was starting to get used to the cheese most pets still have to this day, but I think that this here is just too much for me to ignore.

 

https://i.imgur.com/3OcgXF4.png

 

Rangers are perfectly capable to play without pets, why do they have to be so bloated anymore, adjust all co-efficient already. Not just one by one, this is more damage than Furious Pounce and that skill is still a lot of free damage while players can just dance around and free cast you as that Tiger CONSTANTLY does it to you on a low CD

 

Is it not enough to have 2 low CD stunbreaks? Best weapons in the game? AI that gets in the way of everything? Smokefield on a very low CD for constant chains of sustain??

 

I don't even hit that hard on heavy armor with 25 vulnerability with my strongest attack, ridiculous.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

THE MOST DAMAGING SKILL OF A POWER MESMER WITH ZERK AMULET: GS4; if all stars align you get 4.5k vs zerker amulet
A kittenING BIRD: 5.5k vs demo amulet, and also 3s of chilled

[DanAlcedo.3281]

56 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

THE MOST DAMAGING SKILL OF A POWER MESMER WITH ZERK AMULET: GS4; if all stars align you get 4.5k vs zerker amulet
A kittenING BIRD: 5.5k vs demo amulet, and also 3s of chilled

Bird > Butterfly

[Zyreva.1078]

Tail Swipe could hit for 20k+ (during pre HoT/HoT times) and yet nobody cared because it can be sidestepped easily and then it deals zero dmg. But i guess that's too much effort for players nowadays who expect to be able to facetank everything ...

 

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

THE MOST DAMAGING SKILL OF A POWER MESMER WITH ZERK AMULET: GS4; if all stars align you get 4.5k vs zerker amulet
A kittenING BIRD: 5.5k vs demo amulet, and also 3s of chilled

GS4 isn't anywhere close to being a mesmers most damaging skill. Burst is not something mesmer lacks.

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Andy.5981]

Date - Sometime in the near future.

Developer A - "Boss we've finally done it!!!!"
Lead Developer - "Done what?"
Developer A - "We have achieved balanced damage output across all classes, builds and game modes!!!"
Lead Developer - (pauses from dancing around on Stonemist walls on his mount) - "You've done what! How did you do that?!?!?!"
Developer A - "Errr well you know how everyone whines about class A being too powerful?"
Lead Developer - "Yeah and..."
Developer A - "So we nerf Class A and then Class B becomes too powerful?"
Lead Developer "yeah... "
Developer A - "Which just leads to this downward spiral?"
Lead Developer - "Come on, this is taking longer than "Alliances" (tm)(c)(soon)Anet get to the point"
Developer A - "Well we gave them all 0 damage across all skills with a 300 second cooldown"
Lead Developer - "Excellent, now start work on fixing this in-game chair, one of the legs is wonky"
 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Andy.5981
edited for spilling misteaks

[Lazze.9870]

28 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Tail Swipe could hit for 20k+ (during pre HoT/HoT times) and yet nobody cared because it can be sidestepped easily and then it deals zero dmg. But i guess that's too much effort for players nowadays who expect to be able to facetank everything ...

 

 

This. Tail Swipe always did good damage, and the animation was always obvious.

 

But sure, let's bash drakes into obscurity as well. And let's not fix how their F2 cones can't deal with moving targets, because who cares.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Crozame.4098]

29 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Tail Swipe could hit for 20k+ (during pre HoT/HoT times) and yet nobody cared because it can be sidestepped easily and then it deals zero dmg. But i guess that's too much effort for players nowadays who expect to be able to facetank everything ...

 

GS4 isn't anywhere close to being a mesmers most damaging skill. Burst is not something mesmer lacks.

 

Do you know the tail swipe animation is very close to a normal attack? And btw, when duelling ranger, also need to dodge axe 3, GS 2, 5, as well as entangle..., Oh also, the lighting kitten drake do also do quite some dmg, ah and the pet cc from smoke scale as well as the attack like rev sword 3.

 

In this regard, then pre nerf SPB was perfectly fine, they should not take the FC dmg away, because it has a huge tell and can be baited out easily.  But i guess that's too much effort for players nowadays who do not know how to stow skills..

Edited June 12, 2021 by Crozame.4098

[Lazze.9870]

3 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

Do you know the tail swipe animation is very close to a normal attack?

It's a 360 spin with a wind-up. The normal attack is not.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Zyreva.1078]

34 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

Do you know the tail swipe animation is very close to a normal attack? And btw, when duelling ranger, also need to dodge axe 3, GS 2, 5, as well as entangle..., Oh also, the lighting kitten drake do also do quite some dmg, ah and the pet cc from smoke scale as well as the attack like rev sword 3.

 

In this regard, then pre nerf SPB was perfectly fine, they should not take the FC dmg away, because it has a huge tell and can be baited out easily.  But i guess that's too much effort for players nowadays who do not know how to stow skills..

 

FC is primarily a defensive skill with quite a bit utility. It does not need dmg in oder to be useful. It is also on lower cd and harder to aviod than drake dmg (stowing skills requires very quick reaction often and not all skills can be stowed).

Edited June 12, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Crozame.4098]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

It's a 360 spin with a wind-up. The normal attack is not.

Precast wise? Also, I am not saying its exactly the same, I said similar and the tell is subtle, when we have tons of other things to pay attention.

[Crozame.4098]

42 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

 

FC is primarily a defensive skill with quite a bit utility. It does not need dmg in oder to be useful. It is also on lower cd and harder to aviod than drake dmg (stowing skills requires very quick reaction often and not all skills can be stowed).

Rangers have enough dmg on weapon skills and also the only class with quickness very 9 seconds. Why it need dmg from pets? Also, when you fight war, you pay most attention on the warrior, it has no pets that cc you or do other shits. And you think its a harder tell than drake dmg...

 

Also, then what is the purpose of pets? It is a definse: smoke scale puts smoke field for rangers to stealth, it has utility: can cc, weak, or immo, it also has kittening dmg.

 

I am funny that you think baiting FC or stow FC is harder than dodging the pet CC or the tail dmg. One proof is that, if you check Boyce/Drazah's stream, you can see how many times they get hit by FC and how many times they get CCed by smoke scale. Whats more, if you hit FC, you can dodge afterwards. But for the pet dmg or cc you do not need to trigger it...

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

54 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

 

FC is primarily a defensive skill with quite a bit utility. It does not need dmg in oder to be useful. It is also on lower cd and harder to aviod than drake dmg (stowing skills requires very quick reaction often and not all skills can be stowed).

Seriously...you should see from the first post if somebody is open for discussion, this is a nerf thread and nothing you say or do would change their mind, by adding to this thread you only engross the narrative...just let them vent and ignore

[Crozame.4098]

2 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Seriously...you should see from the first post if somebody is open for discussion, this is a nerf thread and nothing you say or do would change their mind, by adding to this thread you only engross the narrative...just let them vent and ignore

BTW, you also believe his argument. Read the response and think a tiny bit.

[Axl.8924]

What i wish is that they would overhaul some of the pets.

 

Some pets suck so bad that they leave much to be desired. I fear the reason for this, is because ANET wants you to buy the newest expansion so you can get the newest pets.

[Arheundel.6451]

15 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

BTW, you also believe his argument. Read the response and think a tiny bit.

I don't believe that the dmg nerf to FC was necessary if anything they could have added couple of secs to the CD but either way, at equal skill level a spellbreaker has a winning MU against a ranger and this is something no pro player even would disagree with, a GS spellbreaker has the mobility, block uptime and evasion to quickly close distance on a ranger, no matter how much he kites and it's at that point that skill level counts...with ranger having a clear losing MU at melee against a warrior.

 

You could make an argument of pets like tiger still doing more than necessary damage( even if it can be easily dealt with ), could make another argument of lowering pet dmg while increasing utility instead you opt for "remove the pets"...there is no discussion there, nobody including the devs is interested with that kind of talk.

 

Finally the OP is a rev, which again has a winning MU against rangers at equal skill level, elemental blast is more than enough to kill pets or just force the ranger to constantly recall them, then between sword, staff, shiro and even mallyx/axe leap, a rev has more than enough to close gap on a ranger and put him on the defensive...you don't see rangers being played anymore as side duellist for a very good reason..at best they have that semi-bunker druid that never goes every far anyway and still not meta

[Zyreva.1078]

18 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

Rangers have enough dmg on weapon skills and also the only class with quickness very 9 seconds. Why it need dmg from pets? Also, when you fight war, you pay most attention on the warrior, it has no pets that cc you or do other shits. And you think its a harder tell than drake dmg...

 

Also, then what is the purpose of pets? It is a definse: smoke scale puts smoke field for rangers to stealth, it has utility: can cc, weak, or immo, it also has kittening dmg.

 

I am funny that you think baiting FC or stow FC is harder than dodging the pet CC or the tail dmg. One proof is that, if you check Boyce/Drazah's stream, you can see how many times they get hit by FC and how many times they get CCed by smoke scale. Whats more, if you hit FC, you can dodge afterwards. But for the pet dmg or cc you do not need to trigger it...

 

 

Core ranger's damage is garbage without pets. Quickness every 9 seconds? Are you talking about scrapper or fb now?

Also first you were talking about Tail Swipe, now suddenly about the entire class mechanic. FC isn't the only class mechanic of warrior/spellbreaker, you still got your burst skills for dmg.

Likewise pet's are there for both damage and utility, tho damage has always been the more relevant part (that's why smokescale - which doesn't deal a lot of dmg anymore - is pretty much always paired with a damage pet on any build that is supposed to kill stuff).

I also don't know how often those players get hit by smokescale cc (that's not Tail Swipe btw), but i remember watching Boyce play core ranger with drake and it was hitting empty air more often than anything else, without players actively dodging the attacks. Think it landed one single Tail Swipe on a player in the entire match.

 

Pets as a class mechanic have their strenghts, but also more downsides than any other class mechanic, which has always been a limiting factor for ranger in PvP (especially when looking at competitive play). And while core ranger is currently not bad, it isn't dominating PvP in any way. Decent duelist, but not without counters, and useless anywhere else. So what exactly is the problem here?

 

 

[Crozame.4098]

15 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I don't believe that the dmg nerf to FC was necessary if anything they could have added couple of secs to the CD but either way, at equal skill level a spellbreaker has a winning MU against a ranger and this is something no pro player even would disagree with, a GS spellbreaker has the mobility, block uptime and evasion to quickly close distance on a ranger, no matter how much he kites and it's at that point that skill level counts...with ranger having a clear losing MU at melee against a warrior.

 

You could make an argument of pets like tiger still doing more than necessary damage( even if it can be easily dealt with ), could make another argument of lowering pet dmg while increasing utility instead you opt for "remove the pets"...there is no discussion there, nobody including the devs is interested with that kind of talk.

 

Finally the OP is a rev, which again has a winning MU against rangers at equal skill level, elemental blast is more than enough to kill pets or just force the ranger to constantly recall them, then between sword, staff, shiro and even mallyx/axe leap, a rev has more than enough to close gap on a ranger and put him on the defensive...you don't see rangers being played anymore as side duellist for a very good reason..at best they have that semi-bunker druid that never goes every far anyway and still not meta

Really dont think war has a decisevely winning MU against ranger, I remember drazah and ROM talked about this in a recent 1v1 tourny. Axe ranger and war are pretty close.

 

I definetly disagree what rev has a winning MU against ranger... Maybe rene sb but still not sure.

 

I do not think it is about it is about close gaps. At close range, ranger has GS and pet and axe to do dmg. Also ranger can use LB in short range.

 

If you talk about MATs, there are some rangers/druids, but no wars.

Lastly, I mentioned about the FC basically to argue against that guy's logic about dodging the tail swipe. Not to mentioned the whole class.

 

[Crozame.4098]

10 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Core ranger's damage is garbage without pets. Quickness every 9 seconds? Are you talking about scrapper or fb now?

Also first you were talking about Tail Swipe, now suddenly about the entire class mechanic. FC isn't the only class mechanic of warrior/spellbreaker, you still got your burst skills for dmg.

Likewise pet's are there for both damage and utility, tho damage has always been the more relevant part (that's why smokescale - which doesn't deal a lot of dmg anymore - is pretty much always paired with a damage pet on any build that is supposed to kill stuff).

I also don't know how often those players get hit by smokescale cc (that's not Tail Swipe btw), but i remember watching Boyce play core ranger with drake and it was hitting empty air more often than anything else, without players actively dodging the attacks. Think it landed one single Tail Swipe on a player in the entire match.

 

Pets as a class mechanic have their strenghts, but also more downsides than any other class mechanic, which has always been a limiting factor for ranger in PvP (especially when looking at competitive play). And while core ranger is currently not bad, it isn't dominating PvP in any way. Decent duelist, but not without counters, and useless anywhere else. So what exactly is the problem here?

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

FC is primarily a defensive skill with quite a bit utility. It does not need dmg in oder to be useful. It is also on lower cd and harder to aviod than drake dmg (stowing skills requires very quick reaction often and not all skills can be stowed).

hypocrisy at the highest level. You mentioned tail swipe is hard to hit and easily dodgable, therefore should not be addressed.

So I bring up FC saying that it has lower dmg/easier tell, yet still peope still complain the hell out of it, even at its current form. So your logic does not hold.

 

You first mentioned about the overall mechanic by saying that FC is a defensive skill, has some utility, so does not need to make dmg. I argue that pet is everything therefore needs to be addressed...

[Zyreva.1078]

First, i never complained about FC dmg.

Second, Tail Swipe and FC have absolutely nothing in common except they are both part of a class mechanic and class mechanics are by design something that differs greatly. As such comparing those 1:1 does not make sense whatsoever. Fact is that FC is strong even without dmg. The same does not apply to ranger's drakes (or almost all pets for that matter).

 

And since core ranger does not seem to be overperforming in it's current state in PvP,  the dmg of Tail Swipe (or other pet skills) is fine and with sufficient counterplay. You even said yourself it has an even matchup against spb (which isn't the greatest spec right now). So again, what exactly is the prolem?  That there are "some" rangers in tournaments? Should the class get eliminated from competitive play once again?

Edited June 12, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Shrapnel.7249]

Don’t facetank a pet. Yes it is a large percentage of ranger dps. Whether rangers like that or hate that, it’s the mechanic. Are we really complaining about the tiger though??? Kite it or kill it, boom, done. It dies to the most minuscule amount of damage, and then it’s on a 45 second timer. I see good players basically never take pet damage. Kite, jump on literally any object and watch the pet spazz. 

[Mini Crinny.6190]

If you complain about it enough, i'm sure anet will nerf it eventually

[Shao.7236]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 Whether it's easy to dodge or not doesn't matter. If I spend my entire sustain avoiding everything just to get my half health deleted by 1 skill, whatever it is. It's a problem.

 

Clearly you have no idea what balance means nor what it is to work for success. Let alone effort. You're telling me that one of the hardest profession to lock down has difficulties playing when some pet can just hit for 5k here and there even while the owner is unable to keep up with it's adversary with much of the strongest utility, I call BS.

 

@Arheundel.6451 Rangers have the most consistently available options with the safest application out of any professions, not that I have a problem with it, even if anytime I get to punish they have something readily available to compensate with (Low CD Smokefield, Low CD Hunter's Shot, Swoop, 2 Low CD Stunbreaks, Blocks and Stuns, not counting pet behavior and choices.) I have a problem for an RNG mechanic that carries them because they can't dodge anything I do but survive because their skills have been poorly examined ever since Feb and have had problems before such as birds and tigers.

 

Why should a pet hit me harder than I ever could? Dodging it is not always an option when the profession has so much already. Pets alone are already exempt of so many things such as running away so fast you can't catch up, immune to Taunt or often bugging out of CC's, be swapped shortly and restore health super quickly even in combat but also share the player healing skill, be any skills spent a waste while you get free casted by their owner.

 

Also you assume I play Herald, you don't know me at all and what influence I've had. To think that attacking the pet will do any good like nobody has tried, they're behavior is completely busted and are not limited like players in the slightest. I've had and watched enough Rangers winning duels while being useless on the floor because it's such a fair mechanic to allow a dead npc ressurect someone or got to the point of cc'ing with at least 3 different skills in freaking downstate.

 

Knowing Anet sets down mechanics they can't even respect, Soulbeast is actually the most balanced out of the trait available specs and yet they had the oversight of allowing pet swap in downstate, the lack of dedication in balancing this profession is so apparent when pets can hit harder more often than most player skills on Berserker while the Ranger is perfectly capable all alone.

 

I really really don't care for how the ranger player itself can be busted, I'll play my way around it, but pets need to be checked and made sure they're not carrying garbage players with skills that have often more influence than what others don't even access to.

 

Smokefield is one of the highest offenders in such case at a very low 16 seconds CD for very high stealth access in between all the shenanigans to deal with already.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Zyreva.1078]

36 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 Whether it's easy to dodge or not doesn't matter. If I spend my entire sustain avoiding everything just to get my half health deleted by 1 skill, whatever it is. It's a problem.

 

Instead of wasting your defense on "everything", maybe you should start avoiding the hard hitters.

Rest of your post is just a whole lot of BS that clearly shows you have no idea about how ranger and pets work.

[shadowpass.4236]

https://i.imgur.com/CFenVhg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AlPoQDH.jpg

 

If you're having trouble dodging a stationary 3/4s animation attack, wait till you get hit for 7.4k from a base 1/4s cast time True Nature with quickness from a power herald.

Edited June 12, 2021 by shadowpass.4236

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Instead of wasting your defense on "everything", maybe you should start avoiding the hard hitters.

Rest of your post is just a whole lot of BS that clearly shows you have no idea about how ranger and pets work.

Wow as if there's only 1 thing to dodge. Ranger is definitely not the most bloated profession already, I haven't even complained player available skills and because I state that being hit 5k+ by a pet while their owner is playing horrible is a stupid fact?

 

You can't be taken seriously if you think Ranger isn't already carried by a low CD smokefield. Let alone defend yourself with counter arguments to anything said.

 

30 minutes ago, shadowpass.4236 said:

 

https://i.imgur.com/CFenVhg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AlPoQDH.jpg

 

If you're having trouble dodging a stationary 3/4s animation attack, wait till you get hit for 7.4k from a base 1/4s cast time True Nature with quickness from a power herald.

 

One step forward, Two step back attempt. If you think hitting a light armor in downstate is going to prove a point. Did you know that Death Strike deals less Damage than Tail Swipe still? That implies you could deal way more with it therefor point is moot not even couting the absurd multipliers available.

 

I never said Herald F2 was balanced and you'd know I disagree with the instant cast if you knew me well enough because in practice it's one of the only things that keeps the spec easily played and I would dream of Anet actually nerfing it to deal no damage at all and just remove boons instead, new screen? Oh boy, more Light Armor damage, I'd say check for context and try to replicate in realistic situation within the same requisites I've put in the OP.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Shao.7236