Rename Revenant - Herald is not existent for Anet.

[SeTect.5918]

I don't have to say any more.

[Virdo.1540]

Not happy with heralds state, nor with Core. 

 

[Sobx.1758]

That's false, time to stop trying to bait random unneeded herald buffs, lmao.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Shao.7236]

Outside Shortbow, Renegade has nothing that makes it any "that" much better than Core or Herald DPS wise, support wise Alacrity is rather bloated considering what Core can do in contrast and Herald can't by itself at all.

[Telgum.6071]

Here it is. The first of the weekly river of constant moaning and crying about revenant. Seriously, go playing firebrand or something.

[otto.5684]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Outside Shortbow, Renegade has nothing that makes it any "that" much better than Core or Herald DPS wise, support wise Alacrity is rather bloated considering what Core can do in contrast and Herald can't by itself at all.

Both the summon that does good damage (forgot its name) and the elite does additional damage. Plus SB is pretty good for power. Personally, it is so much better in open world specially due to the summon. 

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Both the summon that does good damage (forgot its name) and the elite does additional damage. Plus SB is pretty good for power. Personally, it is so much better in open world specially due to the summon. 

Icerazor is kinda spreaded out though the vulnerability that it brings is really good for everyone and definitely better on single targets.

 

Soulcleave after the nerf be kinda eh. It doesn't beat Impossible Odds DPS wise unless everyone contributes yet still, given that with quickness IO gets really nasty on auto attacks.

 

Herald is hard to justify since other classes can fill it's place easily while I have my doubts as Core with Ancient Echo, I know it can really push forward a lot of cleave as either Power or Condition because energy can be extended a lot constantly.

 

I'd be interested to see what Core Power max crit with all DPS traits full glass perma quickness could do by just doing auto's.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Obtena.7952]

The complaints just demonstrate people don't know how the game works or how to play. Low impact changes from the patch. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[JekthAvid.1408]

Hi, it's me, a Herald main. It's fine. 🙂

 

...Specifically condi herald. I rarely need help for events n stuff

Edited June 16, 2021 by JekthAvid.1408

[Buran.3796]

 Core is fine and Herald is exceptionally good, best PvE spec in the game specially after the sustain nerfs to the Renegade (which had limited effect in Herald). And is not like matters that much since in~4 months the new specs will blown out of the water all we have now.

[Janitsu.6284]

18 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I'd be interested to see what Core Power max crit with all DPS traits full glass perma quickness could do by just doing auto's.

 

[Shao.7236]

26 minutes ago, Janitsu.6284 said:

 

Could have been using Retribution damage traits, there's no need for corruption with Ancient Echo allowing for perma IO. I get the one button meme, but that's potentially 20% more damage missed out. I didn't have super expectations but 25k for just autoattacking is pretty high IMO.

[SeTect.5918]

17 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

 Core is fine and Herald is exceptionally good, best PvE spec in the game specially after the sustain nerfs to the Renegade (which had limited effect in Herald). And is not like matters that much since in~4 months the new specs will blown out of the water all we have now.

Best pve spec? Scourge, mirage? And renegade still has more sustain even with the nerf, also has ranged weapon

[Buran.3796]

On 6/15/2021 at 4:23 PM, SeTect.5918 said:

Best pve spec? Scourge, mirage? And renegade still has more sustain even with the nerf, also has ranged weapon

  Condi Herald can solo pretty much everything in the game. Condi Renegade does more damage but is less tanky and doesn't benefit from runes of tormenting in the same degree as Herald. I don't put any value on how much Renegade is prefered over Herald or core Revenant in Raids and Fractals because i don't find them particulary fun and you can gain more rewards (in terms of sustained gold coins x hour) in open world PvE rather than in instanced content. About Mirage and Scourges, I'm not very familiar using them, but Hizen ranks Renegade above both, and has plenty of videos backing his claims. 

 

   In Conquest I oftenly swap from power Herald, condi Herald and power Renegade, but in 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 mini seasons I found the  Herald variants to have much more sustain (also Renegade having most of their damage coming from the short bow makes it extremely easy to hard counter).

[ArthurDent.9538]

4 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Condi Herald can solo pretty much everything in the game. Condi Renegade does more damage but is less tanky and doesn't benefit from runes of tormenting in the same degree as Herald. I don't put any value on how much Renegade is prefered over Herald or core Revenant in Raids and Fractals because i don't find them particulary fun and you can gain more rewards (in terms of sustained gold coins x hour) in open world PvE rather than in instanced content. About Mirage and Scourges, I'm not very familiar using them, but Hizen ranks Renegade above both, and has plenty of videos backing his claims. 

 

   In Conquest I oftenly swap from power Herald, condi Herald and power Renegade, but in 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 mini seasons I found the  Herald variants to have much more sustain (also Renegade having most of their damage coming from the short bow makes it extremely easy to hard counter).

Renegade has much stronger synergy with dance of death which means way more battle scars and way more healing than condi herald can manage regardless of slightly less tormenting rune synergy (not really true). Herald is only tankier if stacking damage reduction modifiers or if shield/infused light are high value (spikey telegraphed incoming damage as opposed to steady sustained damage or just non telegraphed damage).

[SeTect.5918]

5 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Condi Herald can solo pretty much everything in the game. Condi Renegade does more damage but is less tanky and doesn't benefit from runes of tormenting in the same degree as Herald. I don't put any value on how much Renegade is prefered over Herald or core Revenant in Raids and Fractals because i don't find them particulary fun and you can gain more rewards (in terms of sustained gold coins x hour) in open world PvE rather than in instanced content. About Mirage and Scourges, I'm not very familiar using them, but Hizen ranks Renegade above both, and has plenty of videos backing his claims. 

 

   In Conquest I oftenly swap from power Herald, condi Herald and power Renegade, but in 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 mini seasons I found the  Herald variants to have much more sustain (also Renegade having most of their damage coming from the short bow makes it extremely easy to hard counter).

You said that renegade doesnt benefit from rune of tormenting like herald. Huh? Both of them can use mace and axe and demon and the other legend has no torment (kalla & dragon). The only difference is that renegade can also use shortbow which also does torment so actually renegade benefits more from rune of torment. Renegade has a skill that hits the enemy 20x and 2x Vulnerability each hit. Thats a big amount of heal. The heal skill of renegade decreases condition damage by 20%. The elite skill is also still a good heal bc it gives 600 hp each second. Before it was totally broken. It also has instant cc with stunbreak on Kalla. 

 

In 2v2 and 3v3 there are small maps so yea i guess herald is better there. 

In wvw there is a lot of space and some players you just cant reach because you dont have range weapons. Most of your sustain in wvw comes from tormenting rune and this requires to hit the enemy often enough. Its easier with renegade than with herald bc u have to stay on 130 range or sth all the time with herald.

I prefer herald for the playstyle but sorry, renegade is better in everything than herald. 

[Buran.3796]

17 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

You said that renegade doesnt benefit from rune of tormenting like herald. Huh? Both of them can use mace and axe and demon and the other legend has no torment (kalla & dragon). The only difference is that renegade can also use shortbow which also does torment so actually renegade benefits more from rune of torment.

   No, because the best runes for condition Renegade players is objetively the runes of nightmare, due Renegade's condition damage splits in a fair share between bleeds, torment and burns, so using the nightmare runes maximizes the dps, whereas condi Herald has no bleeds and torment is clearly the main damage source (with a decent amount for burns and almost no damage from poison or chills). So for a condi Herald the runes of tormenting makes perfect sense since enhances both its main source of damage and the sustain, whereas for a condi Renegade if you chose tormenting runes you're losing a lot of potential damage. Also, cvondi Renegade usually runs full viper because the short bow is the main weapon for that spec in PvE and is a hybrid weapon which benefits equaly from condition and physical stats, whereas condi Herald runs mainly mace & axe which do very little physical damage so no reason to run anything but dire or trailblazer in PvE. So not only Herald provides better active defenses than Renegade but also sits over 3500 armor and over 25K HP, which combined with the passive healing from the runes makes WAY more room to mistakes vs dangerous foes. With viper Renegade sometimes you screw one single healing burst and you end being a bloody pond on the floor, Herald just tanks things better. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   No, because the best runes for condition Renegade players is objetively the runes of nightmare, due Renegade's condition damage splits in a fair share between bleeds, torment and burns, so using the nightmare runes maximizes the dps, whereas condi Herald has no bleeds and torment is clearly the main damage source (with a decent amount for burns and almost no damage from poison or chills). So for a condi Herald the runes of tormenting makes perfect sense since enhances both its main source of damage and the sustain, whereas for a condi Renegade if you chose tormenting runes you're losing a lot of potential damage.

Yes, you lose damage for cRen if you don't take Nightmare, but you're still doing far more dps than cHerald even if you decide to take Torment runes instead.  cHerald isn't magically higher dps than cRen if both are running Torment runes.  Since you're discussing Open World, a cRen with Torment Runes is going to outperform a cHerald with Torment Runes 100% of the time.  You can easily test this on golem if you don't believe me. 
 

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

Also, cvondi Renegade usually runs full viper because the short bow is the main weapon for that spec in PvE and is a hybrid weapon which benefits equaly from condition and physical stats

This is 100% a myth in PvE.  The power damage contribution from Shortbow is fairly irrelevant overall for cRen.  Look at an Arcdps log that breaks down how much damage you're doing with each individual skill for a cRen Viper damage rotation.  Shortbow inflicts 8% of the total 40k benchmark through power damage (Shortbow inflicts 3.2k in power damage).  Mace conversely inflicts 4.8% of the benchmark in power damage (1.92k).  As can be seen, Mace is only 3% behind on power damage here.  That's not a massive difference. 

So yes, Shortbow DOES inflict more power damage than Mace and has better power damage scaling, but it's still only a small part of the overall benchmark.  The actual condis from Shortbow inflict far, far greater damage than the power aspect of the weapon.  16% of the overall damage is inflicted by bleeding, and almost all bleeding is from the Shortbow.  That doesn't even include Shortbow's Torment or Burning contributions and it's already double the total contribution of all of Shortbow's power damage.  Shortbow isn't a hybrid weapon (at least in PvE), it's a primarily condi weapon that has decent power scaling.  There's definitely a difference

Log from the recent Devastation cRen benchmark if you want to add the numbers yourself:
https://dps.report/nDqK-20210609-005217_golem

 

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

 So not only Herald provides better active defenses than Renegade but also sits over 3500 armor and over 25K HP, which combined with the passive healing from the runes makes WAY more room to mistakes vs dangerous foes. With viper Renegade sometimes you screw one single healing burst and you end being a bloody pond on the floor, Herald just tanks things better. 

The point of the above paragraph on the shortbow is to say that cRen has no qualms running Trailblazers if it needs to.  It is 100% a myth that cRen is forced to run Viper to maintain its high damage.  It can run Trailblazer and Torment Runes just like cHerald can in Open World and it ends up being just as (if not more) survivable with still far more damage than cHerald.  The only difference is that Infuse Light is a godsend in many situations which makes cHerald better in some situations.  cHerald ofc also has better generic boon support.

Also fun fact is that to get top dps on cHerald you still need to run Viper + Nightmare Runes.  It's a dps loss for cHerald to run Tormenting + Trailblazers.  Yes, Tormenting + Trailblazers hits cRen's overall dps very slightly harder than cHerald, but it isn't this massive loss of damage you're making it out to be. 
https://snowcrows.com/builds/revenant/herald/condition-herald

I would love it if cHerald performed better, but the truth is cRen is just better in Open World, Fractals, and Raids in almost every way and can do all the same "survivability" things that cHerald can, with the exception of Infuse Light and Shield. 

[SeTect.5918]

6 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   No, because the best runes for condition Renegade players is objetively the runes of nightmare, due Renegade's condition damage splits in a fair share between bleeds, torment and burns, so using the nightmare runes maximizes the dps, whereas condi Herald has no bleeds and torment is clearly the main damage source (with a decent amount for burns and almost no damage from poison or chills). So for a condi Herald the runes of tormenting makes perfect sense since enhances both its main source of damage and the sustain, whereas for a condi Renegade if you chose tormenting runes you're losing a lot of potential damage. Also, cvondi Renegade usually runs full viper because the short bow is the main weapon for that spec in PvE and is a hybrid weapon which benefits equaly from condition and physical stats, whereas condi Herald runs mainly mace & axe which do very little physical damage so no reason to run anything but dire or trailblazer in PvE. So not only Herald provides better active defenses than Renegade but also sits over 3500 armor and over 25K HP, which combined with the passive healing from the runes makes WAY more room to mistakes vs dangerous foes. With viper Renegade sometimes you screw one single healing burst and you end being a bloody pond on the floor, Herald just tanks things better. 

So you say that herald has more sustain because with herald you run trailblazers and tormenting runes and with renegade vipers with nightmare runes. Eh that makes no sense. 

 

Renegade with tormenting and trailblazers does far more damage than herald with the same equip. 

 

Herald does also a lot burning damage so tbh the best dps option for it would be nightmare with vipers too.

 

No clue if you ever tried renegade and herald in pve with the same equip, trailblazers and tormenting rune, but i did and i can 100% say that renegade is far better even with the nerf of elite skill.

[hash.8462]

Personally, I just want them to fix hammer #2 (at least undo the change of march 2020).

[Buran.3796]

22 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Yes, you lose damage for cRen if you don't take Nightmare, but you're still doing far more dps than cHerald even if you decide to take Torment runes instead.  cHerald isn't magically higher dps than cRen if both are running Torment runes.  Since you're discussing Open World, a cRen with Torment Runes is going to outperform a cHerald with Torment Runes 100% of the time.  You can easily test this on golem if you don't believe me. 

    ...But my point is not that cHerald does more damage than cRenegade in any way (which also is not needed) but the fact that cHerald is harder to kill in PvE than cRenegade. This whole thread is about how some people think that Herald is useless because Renegade delivers more dps, has larger heal burst and shares alacrity, but happens that those features are useful mostly in niche parts of the game (fractals, raids...) which are fading and doesn't provide as much gold gains as open world PvE in which (oh surprise!) damage is mostly irrelevant because due power creep most specs and even core builds have plenty of damage and what counts the most is tagging enemies (which isn't a problem at all for Heralds). 

 

    So, as I said, Herald is in good form currently (and above Renegade in PvP/WvW) and doesn't make much sense to beg damage boost for the spec since in 3-4 months the new specs will probably be broken op and will blow any current spec out of the water between a mix of power creep, unguessed combos and bugs.

[Kronos.2560]

I agree that renegade outshines glint easily with dps/aoe daze/life steal and much more. Typically renegade is my experience has better survival than glint.

 

The one exception I find is when using glint as a condi Regen healer. Salvation line + resilient spirit on glint makes for one heck of a tank. Regen heals you and with boons up constant you get at a minimum of 900 barrier every 3 seconds. Which allows Regen to heal you during it's uptime. With 400+ Regen ticks (on you 400+ on others 700+ with torment runes) and 300+ barrier a second (900 over 3 seconds) + shield oh crap button/glint heal and throw in the corruption fiendish tenacity if you want ultimate tankiness (600+ a second) not to mention some torment runes for when you swap to Mallyx. Overall can sustain to self a perma 1000+ tick of healing +300 barrier + any torment applied heals.

With the above you can face tank a meteor falling on you and just shrug it off and heal back to 100 in a few ticks without using an o no button. (Especially with how barrier stacks if enemy is doing a wind up for large hit so you can shrug off more usually a few 1000 just with that)

But I will say that is specifically when going for a Regen bot condi glint.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

    ...But my point is not that cHerald does more damage than cRenegade in any way (which also is not needed) but the fact that cHerald is harder to kill in PvE than cRenegade. This whole thread is about how some people think that Herald is useless because Renegade delivers more dps, has larger heal burst and shares alacrity, but happens that those features are useful mostly in niche parts of the game (fractals, raids...) which are fading and doesn't provide as much gold gains as open world PvE in which (oh surprise!) damage is mostly irrelevant because due power creep most specs and even core builds have plenty of damage and what counts the most is tagging enemies (which isn't a problem at all for Heralds). 

 

    So, as I said, Herald is in good form currently (and above Renegade in PvP/WvW) and doesn't make much sense to beg damage boost for the spec since in 3-4 months the new specs will probably be broken op and will blow any current spec out of the water between a mix of power creep, unguessed combos and bugs.

The only thing Herald brings over Renegade in Open World is Infuse Light (and shield I guess if you need it).  Otherwise Renegade has the same level of survivability and more damage while taking the same gear.  This is pretty clear from my post.  Renegade also has a far better tagging weapon than Herald (Shortbow) for Open World and tends to be the superior Open World spec because of this. 

Also Ren is currently better than Herald in PvP.  Herald outperforms it in WvW zergs ofc. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054