Can we just remove invulnerability from down in WvW / (PVP Game modes)?

[Sonork.2916]

I'd be happy with removing the invuln period and weakening ally rubbing by 50%.  So often you can down someone and their ally kneels for 1-2 seconds and they're back up again.  

[Chaba.5410]

19 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

lmao nice attacks.

We can't get down state removed!

Let's just try and get pieces of it removed!

It worked for mass rally!

We'll get invul out!

Then we nerf rally up health!

Then we'll get rally out eventually too!

Then we'll get the down health nerfed!

Then we'll get the down skills nerfed!

Then we'll get finishers to auto proc!

Then we'll get them to stun lock the target 2s before going down and then into auto finisher!

Then we'll come back around and ask everyone if they want down state removed because it's useless at that point!

Where shall we draw the line?

 

Last week I died instantly to a zerg, I didn't even get the "2s of invulnerability", didn't even get to use my down skills, whether that was a bug or lag or whatever I have no clue. But I could care less if it's there or not, it's just there to help those being one shot down which happens in big groups mostly (guess who it benefits the most here, the smaller group that may not be running res skills unlike the bigger group).

 

I don't die that often, most times it doesn't help me/hamper me in roaming cause you know finishers, you know there's also finishers you can use right? Oh wait I'm guessing the spammers just want it out so their little 6 person solo roaming can finish one roamer quickly and move on. 🙄 Roaming with pugs, I might get a res after the 2s anyways if at all, roaming with a zerg I if I go down I'm more than likely not getting a res either, so either way I don't care if this stays in or not.

 

The people complaining are probably using high burst glass builds and they want to kill with no risk, if you can't figure out after 9 years not to spam damage dump on someone that just went down I don't know what to tell you. Bit by bit people want to destroy the tactical parts of combat and just make it a spammy fps clone.

 

But yeah let's keep calling for nerfs for after someone is down, not the hot garbage mess of boon balling that makes it difficult to get a down in the first place.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I'm putting Chen on my ignore list, and heading over to the fortnite forums to complain about the building mechanics, I don't like it, they should take it out!

This is an odd response to being asked which battle royale games you referred to in your other post.  So, only Fortnite has a downstate like GW2 with an invulnerability?

[bigo.9037]

19 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

I merely disagree with your reasons and have provided personal experiences to counter them. I even agreed that no downstate may be good for small scale fights but you refuse to look at the rest of the game mode in favor of your personal bias. I'm not against change at all but "I think its stupid" imo isn't a credible reason. Considering your passion for the subject, I hoped you have more then the basic responses that are regurgitated in every no downstate thread. 

I don't want you to get in forum trouble so. My memory is a little hazy, wasn't the invuln added to the game because larger groups could down and finish in one go while smaller groups generally didn't have enough damage to do the same? Wasn't it added specifically to help smaller groups?

DS helps big group much more than small group regardless of the scale of the fight. 
this is not an opinion, this is a fact. 
i don’t think big group needs more help , considering they already have more numbers. 
this applies to all scales of battles, but you can’t get that through your head.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Remove the invuln frames and clear. Remove the increased health pool. Damage was over nerfed in Feb 2020, but downed health was untouched making it a more broken state.

[Cuks.8241]

Remove rally. 

One down every 5 min, second down you're dead.

Remove invul frames and condi clear.

Multiple rubbers don't increase the ress speed.

[Zikory.6871]

4 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

DS helps big group much more than small group regardless of the scale of the fight. 
this is not an opinion, this is a fact. 
i don’t think big group needs more help , considering they already have more numbers. 
this applies to all scales of battles, but you can’t get that through your head.

I don't share that experience. Every group I follow actively uses Signet and IoL to prolong fights against bigger or stronger groups.  If you've been playing since 2013 and are still blaming everything numbers, its a joke. 

If you honestly think no downstate scales the same for all squad sizes, I don't know bud. How can you have a meaningful discussion if you refuse to see anything from any other perspective except yours. 

Removing downstate will only punish more casual players and groups. For the sake of discussion, I'm down to see a month of no downstate with no XP bonuses. Let see how populated it is after 4 weeks.

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 6/25/2021 at 2:51 PM, Sonork.2916 said:

I'd be happy with removing the invuln period and weakening ally rubbing by 50%.  So often you can down someone and their ally kneels for 1-2 seconds and they're back up again.  

 

This makes sense, or at least scale the rez speed depending on group size in the area (not sure if this one is possible though). 

 

So if you are 1v2 then the rez speed is very slow to give balance to the solo person--but if it's like 50 v 50 then almost normal because you'll probably have siege and a ton of cleave going on making rezzing very dangerous.  

 

Because the problem for me is if the rezzer has active or passive defenses to begin with, then it becomes near impossible to stop the rez because you can't interrupt it.  This really only applies for me in pretty small scale (less than 10).  

[Dawdler.8521]

27 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

This makes sense, or at least scale the rez speed depending on group size in the area (not sure if this one is possible though). 

 

So if you are 1v2 then the rez speed is very slow to give balance to the solo person--but if it's like 50 v 50 then almost normal because you'll probably have siege and a ton of cleave going on making rezzing very dangerous.  

 

Because the problem for me is if the rezzer has active or passive defenses to begin with, then it becomes near impossible to stop the rez because you can't interrupt it.  This really only applies for me in pretty small scale (less than 10).  

Overly complicated, there is no need to take into account zerging vs small scale if you just remove rally, enforce 1:1 ressing and reduce the healing speed/hp. It would become exceedingly dangerous to res in zergs, that's true but on the other hand that's called more emphasis on teamwork - you can still use skills and sheild blocks/reflects etc on the downed and whoever is trying to get him up.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[bigo.9037]

18 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

I don't share that experience. Every group I follow actively uses Signet and IoL to prolong fights against bigger or stronger groups.  If you've been playing since 2013 and are still blaming everything numbers, its a joke. 

If you honestly think no downstate scales the same for all squad sizes, I don't know bud. How can you have a meaningful discussion if you refuse to see anything from any other perspective except yours. 

Removing downstate will only punish more casual players and groups. For the sake of discussion, I'm down to see a month of no downstate with no XP bonuses. Let see how populated it is after 4 weeks.

 

You’re talking from perspective of unequal skill levels. Who would’ve thought that small group who uses res skills can take advantage of DS to kill larger group of inferior players? 
 

you need to think about it differently instead of just your own perspective because you keep assuming enemy is either worse than your group or isn’t abusing DS mechanics as much as your group.

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

You’re talking from perspective of unequal skill levels. Who would’ve thought that small group who uses res skills can take advantage of DS to kill larger group of inferior players? 
 

you need to think about it differently instead of just your own perspective because you keep assuming enemy is either worse than your group or isn’t abusing DS mechanics as much as your group.

I would expect that same group to have an even better advantage with no DS with an even more fine tuned comp.

[Jski.6180]

It would be nice if they removed the lag time between going down and getting your down skills as well nothing more fun then not being able to play the game for a few sec in your last "stand."

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 6/26/2021 at 4:34 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Overly complicated, there is no need to take into account zerging vs small scale if you just remove rally, enforce 1:1 ressing and reduce the healing speed/hp. It would become exceedingly dangerous to res in zergs, that's true but on the other hand that's called more emphasis on teamwork - you can still use skills and sheild blocks/reflects etc on the downed and whoever is trying to get him up.

 

So removing rally, enforcing 1:1 rezzing, and reducing speed/hp is less complicated than just scaling rez speed based on number of players present?

 

Ok then...

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

So removing rally, enforcing 1:1 rezzing, and reducing speed/hp is less complicated than just scaling rez speed based on number of players present?

 

Ok then...

How do you think the distance to every player on the map is determined and how the game perform functions? Through magic? 

 

Everything I suggested is static changes with zero impact on performance (or even less than now) - removing rally is disabling that check (which already exist), 1:1 ressing is changing a value to 1 (a higher limit already exist), reducing speed is changing a value (a higher value already exist), reducing hp is changing a value (a higher value already exist). 

What you suggested require programming a new downedstate function that check an AoE field around downed players then use a math formula to apply hp res scaling based on the number of players in that AoE and then recalculate it constantly since players will enter and leave the AoE until the player is either dead or revived, increasing the load for this function exponentially with each downed player. There is a similar function with keep lord hp scaling, but its not something that directly transfer, not to mention they would never have anywhere near the load of downed players - more players will down in a single zerg fight than there are lords on a map and only a few of those will even be in combat. Even if the performance cost is low, there is still a massive addition compared to not doing it.

So yes. 

My multiple suggestions are far, far less complicated than your single one.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

How do you think the distance to every player on the map is determined and how the game perform functions? Through magic? 

 

Everything I suggested is static changes with zero impact on performance (or even less than now) - removing rally is disabling that check (which already exist), 1:1 ressing is changing a value to 1 (a higher limit already exist), reducing speed is changing a value (a higher value already exist), reducing hp is changing a value (a higher value already exist). 

What you suggested require programming a new downedstate function that check an AoE field around downed players then use a math formula to apply hp res scaling based on the number of players in that AoE and then recalculate it constantly since players will enter and leave the AoE until the player is either dead or revived, increasing the load for this function exponentially with each downed player. There is a similar function with keep lord hp scaling, but its not something that directly transfer, not to mention they would never have anywhere near the load of downed players - more players will down in a single zerg fight than there are lords on a map and only a few of those will even be in combat. Even if the performance cost is low, there is still a massive addition compared to not doing it.

So yes. 

My multiple suggestions are far, far less complicated than your single one.

 

You said it yourself, they already do it with keep lord  scaling and all over the place in PvE with champions and such.  It's a simple scaling coefficient, nothing more.  

 

They also already do this when multiple people rez, it rezzes 'faster', or uses a higher coefficient.  

 

This would just do the inverse, it starts low and at a certain threshold it kicks up.

[Dawdler.8521]

22 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You said it yourself, they already do it with keep lord  scaling and all over the place in PvE with champions and such.  It's a simple scaling coefficient, nothing more.  

 

They also already do this when multiple people rez, it rezzes 'faster', or uses a higher coefficient.  

 

This would just do the inverse, it starts low and at a certain threshold it kicks up.

Its not the same function. Thats like saying damage is the same as applying healing in reverse.

 

And no they dont already do it on downed - it doesnt count nearby players in a huge area or scale anything based on that, the healing each resser add is static and it only goes "faster with a higher coeffiecient" because of the kindergarten math of 1+1.

 

Just doing the inverse of something and add on top of existing functions still means programming something new with a performance loss instead of tweaking a value.

[Redpawa.4108]

Fun Fact: You can already ignore downstate if you have enough burst, just drop it while they are on a warclaw. If they die in the falling off animation it skips downstate.

If making groups tankier is the primary issue with downstate, the most direct fix is changing the invulnerability into untargetability, No need to completely remove it.

 

Localized scaling is entirely dependent on how the game is coded so there is no guarantee it would work. But assuming the game is properly coded 😬,  a local scaling on downed health would be not have a significant performance impact.
I imagine scaling from 1x up to 5x base health (if a full zerg is standing on your corpse) would make downed gameplay more engaging.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Its not the same function. Thats like saying damage is the same as applying healing in reverse.

 

And no they dont already do it on downed - it doesnt count nearby players in a huge area or scale anything based on that, the healing each resser add is static and it only goes "faster with a higher coeffiecient" because of the kindergarten math of 1+1.

 

Just doing the inverse of something and add on top of existing functions still means programming something new with a performance loss instead of tweaking a value.

 

Syphon skills work exactly like that though, the healing you gain is inverse to the damage the other player is receiving...

 

I'm not sure how else that would work really, healing is a positive addition to HP and damage a negative one, so they are pretty much literal opposites.  

 

Anyway, if any supervisor / lord NPC can scale via how many players are in an area then they should be able to apply that to everything else.  They already have means to show large scale battles (OJs) so they can obviously tell how many players are in a given area.  At most you'd need one other indicator between 'not popping OJs' and 'popping OJs' to indicate medium sized battles (20 players total or something).  

 

And considering the amount of particle effects and other 'fluff' flying about, I'm pretty sure performance wouldn't be an issue if something like that were added, or at least not an issue they haven't worked around with every other aspect of a large scale gamemode like WvW.  

[Redpawa.4108]

I think what really needs to happen is to take a balance pass at all downed skills/traits/interactions.

 

Traits like Death's Embrace and Serpent's Touch would feel much better if they had effects that were accessible without deliberately making a mistake.

Additionally downed skills are completely inbalanced right now, with elementalist being able to ignore it near objectives and engineer having no unique mechanic, CC, or "get up" ability.

[Redpawa.4108]

This isn't meant as an attack or anything just updating your info.
 

8 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Syphon skills work exactly like that though, the healing you gain is inverse to the damage the other player is receiving...

 

I'm not sure how else that would work really, healing is a positive addition to HP and damage a negative one, so they are pretty much literal opposites.  

 

Siphon healing is baked in to the individual siphon's. For example Battle Scars, the damage scales off of your  power while the healing scales with healing power.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Anyway, if any supervisor / lord NPC can scale via how many players are in an area then they should be able to apply that to everything else.  They already have means to show large scale battles (OJs) so they can obviously tell how many players are in a given area.  At most you'd need one other indicator between 'not popping OJs' and 'popping OJs' to indicate medium sized battles (20 players total or something).  

 

And considering the amount of particle effects and other 'fluff' flying about, I'm pretty sure performance wouldn't be an issue if something like that were added, or at least not an issue they haven't worked around with every other aspect of a large scale gamemode like WvW.  

 

This is entirely dependent on how the system detects/manages positional data. Assuming the have used the correct data structure you are right, but there are some concerning hints in the way data is displayed.
Firstly, given the lag of WvW it is entirely possible AoE's have to check against all players that could be hit, potentially checking the entire map population. Secondly, OJ's are updated periodically and don't instantly pop up. This implies that the code related to detecting OJ's is only able to run every couple of seconds to avoid lagging their server infrastructure.

[dank.3680]

12 hours ago, Redpawa.4108 said:

This isn't meant as an attack or anything just updating your info.
 

 

Siphon healing is baked in to the individual siphon's. For example Battle Scars, the damage scales off of your  power while the healing scales with healing power.

 

 

 

This is entirely dependent on how the system detects/manages positional data. Assuming the have used the correct data structure you are right, but there are some concerning hints in the way data is displayed.
Firstly, given the lag of WvW it is entirely possible AoE's have to check against all players that could be hit, potentially checking the entire map population. Secondly, OJ's are updated periodically and don't instantly pop up. This implies that the code related to detecting OJ's is only able to run every couple of seconds to avoid lagging their server infrastructure.

 

It could just work off the orange swords. If you're in an area with active orange swords, w.e debuff to ressing you guys want could be applied. 

[SweetPotato.7456]

Leave the downstate alone, it's unique to gw2.  You are destroying the game authenticity 

[bigo.9037]

6 minutes ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

Leave the downstate alone, it's unique to gw2.  You are destroying the game authenticity 

You people are crazy. Do you honestly think that what makes gw2 combat special is… DS??????????????

[SweetPotato.7456]

2 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

You people are crazy. Do you honestly think that what makes gw2 combat special is… DS??????????????

Downstate is authentic to GW2. 

Who say anything about combat special? 

It is like asking siege / environmental weapons to be removed from the game. which is also something GW2 has that other games doesn't. 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by SweetPotato.7456

[bigo.9037]

21 minutes ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

Downstate is authentic to GW2. 

Who say anything about combat special? 

It is like asking siege / environmental weapons to be removed from the game. which is also something GW2 has that other games doesn't. 

 

DS is not comparable to siege at all. DS is a trivial combat mechanic that has bad consequences and got buffed from the feb patch but without it, combat continues as notmal pretty much except it’s no longer press F to win. Siege is a fundamental part of the wvw gamemode.

[SweetPotato.7456]

1 minute ago, bigo.9037 said:

DS is not comparable to siege at all. DS is a trivial combat mechanic that has bad consequences and got buffed from the feb patch but without it, combat continues as notmal pretty much except it’s no longer press F to win. Siege is a fundamental part of the wvw gamemode.

You are talking about something else, I am talking about what is unique to GW2 that people try to destroy in this thread. Sownstante and Siege (siege at one time are called the Environmental Weapons)  they are both unique features of GW2 , if they are removed might as well play other boring game .